Isreal = The Church ?

[gtsecc]

I am convinced that when the New Testament refers to Israel, the writers mean the new Israel which is the church. How would you explain that to a protestant who think the Bible was foretelling the creating of the Jewish state of Israel?

[karen freeinchristman]

I've got a good Christian friend who is very supportive of the Jews and Israel. He says that the Jews still have an important role to play as God's chosen race. I think he emphasises the unique specialness of Messianic Jews, and he feels that the Jewish homeland is of a holy nature.

I'm not too sure about any of this - I tend to think that, as it says in "Mission-shaped Church", in relation to Jesus being called the "Second Adam":
The Church is intended to be a new humanity, which is to reproduce itself through mission, and so fill the earth.
With this in mind, it follows that the "Promised Land" now becomes the Kingdom of God, and God's people are the "New Israel".

I think that instead of the Bible foretelling the creation of the Jewish State of Israel, that it was/is foretelling the creation of the Kingdom of God. I can't see how a protestant would argue with that.

I probably have all of this wrong, though. Someone put me straight.

[Wigglesworth]

I am convinced that when the New Testament refers to Israel, the writers mean the new Israel which is the church.

Why?

:crossrc:

[gtsecc]

Why?

:crossrc:

I don't know.
I just know it.
I was wondering 1 if I am correct, and 2 why.

[karen freeinchristman]

I don't know.
I just know it.
I was wondering 1 if I am correct, and 2 why.

Well, Glen, what do the Fathers say? (I'm not being funny...)

[gtsecc]

Well, Glen, what do the Fathers say? (I'm not being funny...)

I am pretty sure what I am thinking.

I don't think anyone questioned it until recently - I think it is a presumption from one of the postmellinialist groups. If you are holding some of those escatological views, you see the formation of the Israeli state as evience of the prophesy.

[karen freeinchristman]

hmm... I would just like to hear from someone who has studied this in depth.

[gtsecc]

You see, a friend of mine went to this Baptist church – and the preacher got him all whipped up about end times. He showed in the Bible that those who don’t support Israel will suffer the wrath of God. And, the conclusion is of course that Christians have to support bombing Palestinians. I said, well of course this isn’t true – the Vatican has clearly condemned the war. But, that went over like a lead balloon – sort of proof the Vatican is out of touch or don’t read their Bible. But, I knew that what the statement means is that those who don’t support the NEW Israel, which is the church, will feel God’s wrath.

[karen freeinchristman]

Googled and found this (http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/godschosen.html).

Just for more meat to bite on.

[karen freeinchristman]

It claims that we are the choosers (we have to choose Christ) and Israel is still the chosen.

[Wigglesworth]

I don't think anyone questioned it until recently - I think it is a presumption from one of the postmellinialist groups. If you are holding some of those escatological views, you see the formation of the Israeli state as evience of the prophesy.


It seems more likely to me that it is innovative to believe the church has abrogated the status of the nation of Israel. This belief is contrary to explicit passages of Scripture that address the status of Israel in contrast with the status of the church. Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans is an example.

:crossrc:

[karen freeinchristman]

Yes, Romans 11 is pretty clear.

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[karen freeinchristman]

We have been grafted into Israel; we haven't replaced her. (apparently).

[gtsecc]

Googled and found this (http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/godschosen.html).

Just for more meat to bite on.

I need a tin foil hat to log into that web page.
But, that the guy who disagrees with me is Cuckoo isn't quiet the proof I am looking for.

[Wigglesworth]

I need a tin foil hat to log into that web page.


In case you haven't gotten the advisory yet, it is now mandatory to encircle the hat with one band of duct tape one inch above the top of the ears. The foil has failed occasionally due to the increased cranial pressures created by recent emanations.

:cool:

[gtsecc]

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

[karen freeinchristman]

I need a tin foil hat to log into that web page.
But, that the guy who disagrees with me is Cuckoo isn't quiet the proof I am looking for.

Oh, that is so funny! I see what you mean about Cuckoo. He is quite interesting. And that guy's postal address is a suburb of my home town in California.

But anyway, his Israel argument is presented soley from Scripture, so it still holds, IMO.

[karen freeinchristman]

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

:o that is a weird site, too.

[karen freeinchristman]

:) OK, so sorry for derailing the thread, but I was compelled to post this:

[gtsecc]

Oh man, I used to stay up late and play video games and listen to Art Bell. It was so sureal. he would always have guest on talking aobut end times, or alein abductions. And he had phone lines - If you are east of the rockies, and have been abducted by an alien, call 1-800-123-4567. If you are west of the rockies and are the anti-christ, call 1-800-666-4568.

[Cromwe11]

I think the distinctions between natural Israel and spiritual Israel (the church) are made very clear in the New Testament. Both are refrenced numerous times.

What I'm about to say may sound slightly dispensationalist but don't let that fool you ;) I aren't one.

Paul talks very plainly about the relationship between Israel and the church in Romans. Moreover, since he plainly uses them in contrast, its obvious here that when he's talking about Israel, he means natural Israel, not the church.
He says
#1 Israel received the oracles of God but failed to follow them and failed through unbelief, culminating in their execution of their own messiah.
#2 Israel is set aside by God and veiled from seeing the truth, for two purposes. first that through their setting aside and their unbelief, the gentiles would be saved and brought to faith. Second, that the faith of the gentiles would make Israel Jealous and make her desire to return to God's favor.
#3 the time will come when Israel will be unvieled and they will return to God 'en masse'. This will happen towards "the end".

Some misconceptions and over emphases in the general pro-Israel protestant evangelical community.

The covenant of Abraham which was the for-runner of the new covenant in Jesus Christ was always one of faith. That is people were made members of it by faith, and not by genetics.
The covenant of Moses never was, isn't, and never will be a salvific covenant.
Israel makes misatakes and does wrong things just like every other country and (according to my albeit non traditional) eschatological views, Israel is going to make a huge whopper of a mistake towards the end before they return which will lead to something like 1/3 or 2/3's of their population being destroyed through persecution and disaster.

Misconception of the traditional churches (more common anyway)
God honors all of his promises, and is always faithful to his promises, even when those he made them to are not. God will honor every promise he made to the people of Israel (natural Israel) despite their unfaithfulness and waywardness.

[SirTimothy]

. He showed in the Bible that those who don’t support Israel will suffer the wrath of God.

Oh dear. Never mind, I could do with a bit of wrath in my life...

My biggest complaint is that the nation of Israel is only 1/12th of the tribes of Israel. Likely thing is I contain some of the blood of Abraham, and so do you what with post-exilic intermarriage in Babylon. So are God's promises only true for the tribe of Judah (and the fragment of Benjamin that lives there) or is it, as I firmly believe, for all Israel, which is scattered all over the world?

Timothy

[karen freeinchristman]

My biggest complaint is that the nation of Israel is only 1/12th of the tribes of Israel. Likely thing is I contain some of the blood of Abraham, and so do you what with post-exilic intermarriage in Babylon. So are God's promises only true for the tribe of Judah (and the fragment of Benjamin that lives there) or is it, as I firmly believe, for all Israel, which is scattered all over the world?

Timothy

Good points made, Timothy.

[Wigglesworth]

He knows them, and He knows where to find them.

:)

[gtsecc]

Gal 6: 14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.

[cenimo]

You guys are talking about Replacement Theology

Here's a litle more info:

What is replacement theology?

Question: "What is replacement theology?"

Answer: Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology), or the Church is totally different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

[Ravenonthecross]

I personally think that the church doesn't replace the israelis as God's chosen people, they're because of God's Convenant with them. We're saved thru Christ body and blood, but God never forsook his holy people, The Jews, with whom, he made a convenant.

[ContraMundum]

The doctrine that says the Church replaced Israel ("replacement theology") is of the Devil.

However, when one has swallowed all the doctrines of the Reformers and some of the Fathers in total it is almost impossible to read the scriptures without adopting their interpretation of them.

Simply put, replacement theology is simply a way of saying God doesn't have lasting covenants and doesn't mean what He says.

I don't have the time or inclination to explain this- but let me just say that it took me years of research and prayer to come to the conclusion that on this one topic- the Reformers were wrong and so were their teachers.

Read Romans 9-11 with the eyes of its author and audience, and you'll soon see that Israel has a place today.

[ContraMundum]

Oh dear. Never mind, I could do with a bit of wrath in my life...

My biggest complaint is that the nation of Israel is only 1/12th of the tribes of Israel. Likely thing is I contain some of the blood of Abraham, and so do you what with post-exilic intermarriage in Babylon. So are God's promises only true for the tribe of Judah (and the fragment of Benjamin that lives there) or is it, as I firmly believe, for all Israel, which is scattered all over the world?

Timothy

The nation of Israel today is a political entity meant to give Jews a place to live without being under another's rule- that's all it is. It's a Jewish homeland.

However, when the scriptures speak of Israel it means all of those who are Jews- "Hear oh Israel, The Lord our God, The Lord is One"- this is not talking just to one tribe.

But your point that many people have the bloodline of Abraham somewhere in their past needs addressing too. You see, to be a Jew, you need more than Abraham, but also Issac and Jacob. On top of that, the lineage is generally considered to come through the mother (although some say otherwise). Though Jews were once prolific, so were Gentiles, and intermarriage has not always been very trendy. Usually, you're Jewish if you know you're Jewish, not by vague possibilities, but by something far more concrete- tradition.

Anyway, just hope that sheds some light.

[ContraMundum]

He showed in the Bible that those who don’t support Israel will suffer the wrath of God.


Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Experience shows that this promise still holds true- just ask Hitler.


And, the conclusion is of course that Christians have to support bombing Palestinians. I said, well of course this isn’t true – the Vatican has clearly condemned the war. But, that went over like a lead balloon – sort of proof the Vatican is out of touch or don’t read their Bible. But, I knew that what the statement means is that those who don’t support the NEW Israel, which is the church, will feel God’s wrath.

The Vatican has never been a friend of Jews or the nation of Israel. They don't even have an embassy to the nation. I can provide anti-Israel quotes from the Vatican if you like. The best that the Vatican can do to make up for its centuries of anti-semitism and complicity to the execution and persecution of Jews is to visit Hitler's death camps in these last days- and still never really apologise for turning a blind eye to their neighbour's plight during the Shoah.

Having said that, it is good that the Vatican is for the first time in its bloody history taking a consistant line -it's condemning all wars- even Bush's wars. It should condemn the bombing of anyone. But, does it condemn the bombing of Israelis, regardless of their religion?

[SirTimothy]

Experience shows that this promise still holds true- just ask Hitler.

O_o. I don't think that's a true statement at all. Hyperbole in fact. Hitler was defeated not because of his anti-semitism, but because he wanted to take over all of europe. He was defeated like Napoleon... Bonaparte didn't start the Holocaust yet he was defeated in quite the same way.

It's for this reason I get utterly sick of most messianic jews. Every little tiny thing comes back to the Holocaust, which thank you very much we english had nothing to do with.

[ContraMundum]

O_o. I don't think that's a true statement at all. Hyperbole in fact. Hitler was defeated not because of his anti-semitism, but because he wanted to take over all of europe. He was defeated like Napoleon... Bonaparte didn't start the Holocaust yet he was defeated in quite the same way.

You miss the point- did God overthrow Hitler through the allies or did they do it on their own?

Not only that- look at Hitler himself- a sick, cursed figure far worse than Pharoah. The more he pushed his "final solution", the more mental he got. Also, you can't compare the revolutionary and later imperial zeal of Napoleon to the madness of Hitler- they're very different. Lots of empires fall in wars. The comparison of the military scenario may look similar, but the political and social agendas are vastly different.

Have a look at the Middle East today- it's like Biblical times all over. Read Ps 83 and then think about the Jewish wars against their enemies. They curse Israel, and look what God allows Israel to do. It's ugly but it's true. I hope Jesus returns real soon- the Middle East needs a stiff rebuke on all sides and I am sick of the killing.

Besides, don't you think the Bible is still true? Do the children of Abraham (both Jew and Gentile) still have His divine protection or not?

It's for this reason I get utterly sick of most messianic jews.

Gee, thanks.

Every little tiny thing comes back to the Holocaust, which thank you very much we english had nothing to do with.

The English had nothing to do with the Holocaust, but we were talking about the Vatican, which did by inaction.

[Ravenonthecross]

i've read that the vatican did save thousands of jews via clergy smuggling them out. so although i don't agree with Rome on some issues, at least i know they weren't indifferent to the plight of the Jews being slaughtered during the Holocaust.

[SirTimothy]

Besides, don't you think the Bible is still true? Do the children of Abraham (both Jew and Gentile) still have His divine protection or not?

Yes. I just remain unconvinced that the tribe of Judah and Benjamin are the sole representation of the people of Israel.

[ContraMundum]

Yes. I just remain unconvinced that the tribe of Judah and Benjamin are the sole representation of the people of Israel.

I don't know of anyone who thinks that. Jews, aka Israel, believe in all twelve tribes. I don't know where you get just Benjamin and Judah from- I have never even heard of that.

The point is that Gentiles are ingrafted into Israel by faith in Christ.

[ContraMundum]

i've read that the vatican did save thousands of jews via clergy smuggling them out. so although i don't agree with Rome on some issues, at least i know they weren't indifferent to the plight of the Jews being slaughtered during the Holocaust.

There's always Christians in the Vatican, but the establishment did essentially nil.

[SirTimothy]

I don't know of anyone who thinks that. Jews, aka Israel, believe in all twelve tribes. I don't know where you get just Benjamin and Judah from- I have never even heard of that.

Go read Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jews who reentered the promised land in whenever it was BC was just the tribes of Judah and a small bit of Benjamin. The other tribes never moved back, were lost presumably by intermarriage with the Babylonians. Certainly we have no record of what happened to them... BUT... the NT refers to all Israel. Not just Judah and Benjamin.

[pilgrimgal]

I am convinced that when the New Testament refers to Israel, the writers mean the new Israel which is the church. How would you explain that to a protestant who think the Bible was foretelling the creating of the Jewish state of Israel?

The story of the Israelites continues today, but their present plight is not to be confused with the OT history. In other words, to me...it doesn't make good sense to jump to the conclusion that what was ----means what is now nor what will be.

[ContraMundum]

Go read Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jews who reentered the promised land in whenever it was BC was just the tribes of Judah and a small bit of Benjamin. The other tribes never moved back, were lost presumably by intermarriage with the Babylonians. Certainly we have no record of what happened to them... BUT... the NT refers to all Israel. Not just Judah and Benjamin.

There's a number of problems with that understanding.

The most important one that trumps the position is this- not living in Israel does not make one forfeit being a member of Israel. For example, the Jews are called Israel by God even while in the wilderness during the exile. Don't confuse the nation with the land.

Also, you should read up on just who was taken into exile in the first place- it wasn't the whole nation. ;)

[karen freeinchristman]

There's a number of problems with that understanding.

The most important one that trumps the position is this- not living in Israel does not make one forfeit being a member of Israel. For example, the Jews are called Israel by God even while in the wilderness during the exile. Don't confuse the nation with the land.

Also, you should read up on just who was taken into exile in the first place- it wasn't the whole nation. ;)

What is the opinion around here regarding whether or not there is a theologically important reason to help Israel keep its land? (This question isn't only asked of Contra, it's just that his post sparked it.)

[SirTimothy]

There isn't. But then I live and work with Arabs every day of the week so just perhaps I'm biased.

[ContraMundum]

What is the opinion around here regarding whether or not there is a theologically important reason to help Israel keep its land? (This question isn't only asked of Contra, it's just that his post sparked it.)

For the Christian, there is no theological reason for Israel to keep the land, but they have it (some of it) now and God seems to be happy with them to keep it until His return. It's His business.

To the devout Jew, there is a theological reason to be back in the Holy Land- it belongs to Israel.

There are Christians that believe the return of Israel to the Holy Land is a fulfillment of prophecy, and that this event marks accelerates events leading up to the return of Christ.

[ContraMundum]

There isn't. But then I live and work with Arabs every day of the week so just perhaps I'm biased.

Yep, they will give you their own opinion about things, that's for sure. I personally think they're badly educated on the history of the matter though.

[Cromwe11]

I guess I'd have to ask what you mean by "theologically important".

When you get into questions of land ownership, or right to land its very hard to come up with a just standard. Particularly with that land.. it has been held by so many people down through history.. who is to say which ones have the right to it? Before the Israelites, it was canaanite tribes, after the Israelites it was philistines, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Christians, Turks, Arabs, now Jews.

This is where the saying "posession is 9 10ths of the law" comes in... with land there almost is no such thing as "justice" its just a matter of who holds it, and who can keep it.


In the case of "the Holy Land" however, there is something special. This land is the one land in the whole world that God claimed belonged to him.
Christians often say God gave the land to the jews.. this is only partially true. If you read closely God said the land was his, and the Jews were tenants and care takers of the land.

Is it not ironic that this land which has for the better part of 4000 years been a barren rocky strip of land with little natural value has been perhaps the most fought over peice of land in the world.. in history. Could this be because it is the only peice of land which God claimed for himself?? The tithe of creation as it were.

The question of wether Israel has a right to the land hinges on wether you believe God honors his promises or not. If you believe that God can revoke a promise because of infidelity.. then its possible that Israel has no more right than anyone else... if, however, you believe that God's promises are eternal and not dependant on human fidelity (as I do) then I think you have to believe that Israel has a right to the land. Not because they own it.. but because God promised it to them to use and inhabit.

[karen freeinchristman]

In the case of "the Holy Land" however, there is something special. This land is the one land in the whole world that God claimed belonged to him.
Christians often say God gave the land to the jews.. this is only partially true. If you read closely God said the land was his, and the Jews were tenants and care takers of the land. Interesting!

Is it not ironic that this land which has for the better part of 4000 years been a barren rocky strip of land with little natural value has been perhaps the most fought over peice of land in the world.. in history. Could this be because it is the only peice of land which God claimed for himself?? The tithe of creation as it were.

I have read that some parts of Israel are extremely fertile and diverse in flora.

[Emeth]

Daniel 11:40 "At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood."

Daniel 11:10 "His sons will mobilize for war and assemble a large number of armed forces. They will advance, sweeping through like a flood, and will again wage war as far as his fortress."

Daniel 11:26 "Those who eat his provisions will destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall slain."

Here's what it's all leading up to when the Spiritual Israelites are attacked worldwide:

Zechariah 9:14 "Then the LORD will appear over them, and His arrow will fly like lightning. The Lord GOD will sound the trumpet and advance with the southern storms."

The Cherubs direct involvement of those with negative energy, to bring terror upon them:

Psalm 83:15 "so pursue them with Your tempest and terrify them with Your storm."

The Cherubs physical involvement in the actual slaying of the masses in opposition of Christ's Kingdom once the pawns have done their part in setting the stage leading up to Armageddon:

Jeremiah 25:31, 32, 33 ""The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword -- [This is] the LORD's declaration."This is what the LORD of Hosts says: Pay attention! Disaster goes forth from nation to nation. A great storm is stirred up from the ends of the earth." Those slain by the LORD on that day will be [spread] from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned,gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground."

This will be in fulfillment of Revelation 14:19, 20 "So the angel swung his sickle toward earth and gathered the grapes from earth's vineyard, and he threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles."

A message to Christ's Ministers:

Jeremiah 25:30 ""As for you, you are to prophesy all these things to them, and say to them: The LORD roars from on high; He raises His voice from His holy dwelling. He roars loudly over His grazing land; He calls out with a shout, like those who tread [grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth."

Christ's warning about the time of the end:

Matthew 24:3, 4, 7, 8 "While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age? Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these events are the beginning of birth pains."

A warning to the masses and Satan and his troops (both demonic and mortal) of this planet, from the Cherubic Order:

Ezekiel 38:18-22 "Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel"[this is] the declaration of the Lord GOD "My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals of the field, every creature that crawls on the ground, and every human being on the face of the earth will tremble before Me. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs will collapse, and every wall will fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains"the declaration of the Lord GOD "and every man's sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed. I will pour out torrential rain, hailstones, fire, and brimstone on him, as well as his troops and the many peoples who are with him."

If you want to survive, make positive energy your spiritual makeup:

Romans 13:12 "The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near, so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."

Is Yahweh slow respecting his promise?

2 Peter 3:9, 15 "The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. Also, regard the patience of our Lord as [an opportunity for] salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you." But even Yahweh has His limits on remaining patient. The hourglass is nearly empty. The opportune time is nearing its end. It has now been 6,000 years with Dawn on the loose, and Mankind following his every lead.

Time frame to Yahweh - His conception of time is different from us mortals. Don't let this fact escape your notice:

2 Peter 3:9 "Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like one day."

Psalm 90:4 "For in Your sight a thousand years are like yesterday that passes by, like a few hours of the night."

Know that you're living in the last days. NOW is the time to straighten out your hearts:

2 Timothy 3:1-5 "But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the form of religion but denying its power. Avoid these people!"

Words to those of a positive energy:

Proverbs 11:4-6 "Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death. The righteousness of the blameless clears his path, but the wicked person will fall because of his wickedness. The righteousness of the upright rescues them, but the treacherous are trapped by their own desires."

Hezbollah's war flag is emblazened with an AK-47 rifle. They consider themselves the saviors - warriors of their cause. They fight carnal warfare, just like the Cherubs fight spiritual warfare - therefore, they mistakenly believe themselves to be warriors of their false god. Yahweh has done this to their minds:

2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11 "and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. [They perish] because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, "

[karen freeinchristman]

Thanks for your contribution, Emeth. Welcome to Christian Forums!

I find your post about the Cherubs and positive/negative energy very interesting. I can't find fault with it, although I wonder - where have you found your information about what Cherubs do?

[Cromwe11]

I have read that some parts of Israel are extremely fertile and diverse in flora.


This is the case today, but it is a fairly recent development, do entirely to the ingenuity and industry of the Israelis.

They have done remarkable things with the land there. Including pioneering technology in desalination of water to use for irrigation, and methods of irrigation itself.
During the reign of the Ottoman Turkish empire one of the ways in which taxes were assessed was by the number of trees on a person's land. The result in Israel was that the land was almost entirely deforested during this period to avoid paying more taxes.

Since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 the Israeli's have been working hard to rehabilitate the land and they have succeeded. Not only is there much more vegitation, and much greater variety etc, but it has begun to affect the environment even in areas which are not actively irrigated etc.

One of my family recently went to Israel and spent a good deal of time in the south near the dead sea in the negev. He reported that it was quite amazing.. all across the desert there were growths of shrubs and bushes etc, even those arid regions were experiencing vegitation.. but the really amazing thing was that it ceased instantly at the border. On the Israeli side there was growth, on the egyptian side nothing but sand.
He even showed me a satalite map he had purchased and it was amazing, you could literally see the borders of israel plain as day on the satalite imagery because the land was darker due to vegitation while the land all around was utterly barren.

[pilgrimgal]

This is the case today, but it is a fairly recent development, do entirely to the ingenuity and industry of the Israelis.

They have done remarkable things with the land there. Including pioneering technology in desalination of water to use for irrigation, and methods of irrigation itself.
During the reign of the Ottoman Turkish empire one of the ways in which taxes were assessed was by the number of trees on a person's land. The result in Israel was that the land was almost entirely deforested during this period to avoid paying more taxes.

Since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 the Israeli's have been working hard to rehabilitate the land and they have succeeded. Not only is there much more vegitation, and much greater variety etc, but it has begun to affect the environment even in areas which are not actively irrigated etc.

One of my family recently went to Israel and spent a good deal of time in the south near the dead sea in the negev. He reported that it was quite amazing.. all across the desert there were growths of shrubs and bushes etc, even those arid regions were experiencing vegitation.. but the really amazing thing was that it ceased instantly at the border. On the Israeli side there was growth, on the egyptian side nothing but sand.
He even showed me a satalite map he had purchased and it was amazing, you could literally see the borders of israel plain as day on the satalite imagery because the land was darker due to vegitation while the land all around was utterly barren.
Very informative. Thanks.

[CSMR]

The doctrine that says the Church replaced Israel ("replacement theology") is of the Devil.

However, when one has swallowed all the doctrines of the Reformers and some of the Fathers in total it is almost impossible to read the scriptures without adopting their interpretation of them.

Simply put, replacement theology is simply a way of saying God doesn't have lasting covenants and doesn't mean what He says.

I don't have the time or inclination to explain this- but let me just say that it took me years of research and prayer to come to the conclusion that on this one topic- the Reformers were wrong and so were their teachers.

Read Romans 9-11 with the eyes of its author and audience, and you'll soon see that Israel has a place today.
Which reformers said the Church replaced Israel? Who were their teachers who were also wrong? Did the reformers say that the Church came into existence after Israel? So that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not in the Church? Who was the reformers' teacher if it was not Augustine? Augustine makes no distinction between Israel and the Church, and if there is no distinction, there is no replacement.

Read Romans 9-11 and see that Israel has a place today? The reformers did and saw this. They saw both Israels:
-Israel the visible bearer of the promises of God, just as visibly rejecting these promises (especially in the institution of the Roman Catholic church)
-Israel the remnant, elect unto a faith which is never a posessed work but a matter of grace (especially in the doctrine of justification by faith)

[No Swansong]

I just heard that the prime minister of Lebanon is requesting that the other Islamic nations help them to stop "Israeli Terrorism". We may soon be called to help our ally Israel. Whether there is a Theological reason or not, we may soon have to decide if there is a good political reason.

[ContraMundum]

Yeah jtb, that is kinda of depressing.

The old saying coined by some "alternative" thinker goes "a terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force". However, I think that is rubbish.

The problem as I see is that the term "terrorist" has become hackneyed and is thrown around far too easily. The ill-educated masses north and east of Israel throw it around in much the same manner as one would expect elementary school children to when engaged in "name calling". In other words, it lacks real substance but it will do for the sake of argument.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say on this thread. I've been trying my darndest not to get involved in CF during this period because I feel there are really too few friends for me here on this topic.

[No Swansong]

Yeah jtb, that is kinda of depressing.

The old saying coined by some "alternative" thinker goes "a terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force". However, I think that is rubbish.

The problem as I see is that the term "terrorist" has become hackneyed and is thrown around far too easily. The ill-educated masses north and east of Israel throw it around in much the same manner as one would expect elementary school children to when engaged in "name calling". In other words, it lacks real substance but it will do for the sake of argument.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say on this thread. I've been trying my darndest not to get involved in CF during this period because I feel there are really too few friends for me here on this topic.


PM me I would be interested in your thoughts.

[SirTimothy]

Of course, what Israel is doing /is/ terrorism in the eyes of the Arab world, as it's no worse than what any Arab has done to Israel.

[ContraMundum]

Of course, what Israel is doing /is/ terrorism in the eyes of the Arab world, as it's no worse than what any Arab has done to Israel.

I think people confuse terror and terrifying things like conventional warfare with terrorism, which I consider a methodology and philosophy that conducts a different kind of war.

...but that's just my point of view.

[Aymn27]

I just heard that the prime minister of Lebanon is requesting that the other Islamic nations help them to stop "Israeli Terrorism". We may soon be called to help our ally Israel. Whether there is a Theological reason or not, we may soon have to decide if there is a good political reason.
Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not? That is reason enough. Not to mention we have been ally's with them for decades. When you have regimes like Iran, etc calling for a "cleansing" - I think that's pretty darn scary. We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists. And if indeed this is Armageddon - then so be it - what a glorious time for His return!

[SirTimothy]

Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not?

No. Lebanon is also. Iraq was until America decided that they wanted someone american-friendly in there and stuck Saddam in place. Democratic doesn't necessarily mean pro-american.

We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

Are you saying that socialist countries aren't promoting of liberty and freedom? If so that's one of the stupidest things I've heard all week.

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists.

Most Arabs are not islamo-fascists. However both Israel and America's actions of late have on the whole tended to encourage and strengthen those tendencies amongst the arab nations.

Timothy

[ContraMundum]

I agree Aymn, and what's more I think people need to think about whose side they are on.

[SirTimothy]

Quite firmly on the side of the underdog--that's the Arabic people I'm afraid. Until Israel gets of it's high horse of supremacy, I'm afraid I'm not real interested in giving them the time of day.

Timothy

[No Swansong]

Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not? That is reason enough. Not to mention we have been ally's with them for decades. When you have regimes like Iran, etc calling for a "cleansing" - I think that's pretty darn scary. We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists. And if indeed this is Armageddon - then so be it - what a glorious time for His return!


I didn't say there wasn't I just said we may need to decide if there was.

[ContraMundum]

No. Lebanon is also. Iraq was until America decided that they wanted someone american-friendly in there and stuck Saddam in place. Democratic doesn't necessarily mean pro-american.

Actually, there are many democratic countries in the Middle East, but they are different kinds of democracy. For example, the Palestinian authority is democractic, as is Iran and Iraq and Lebanon. But, the parties that contol them and the methods of election are not terribly convincing that they are true democracies. But then again, neither is the US.

Are you saying that socialist countries aren't promoting of liberty and freedom? If so that's one of the stupidest things I've heard all week.

I don't think that was what he was saying.

[No Swansong]

No. Lebanon is also. Iraq was until America decided that they wanted someone american-friendly in there and stuck Saddam in place. Democratic doesn't necessarily mean pro-american.

Lebanon yes, not so with Iraq. When there is no choice there is no democracy.



Are you saying that socialist countries aren't promoting of liberty and freedom? If so that's one of the stupidest things I've heard all week.

We could debate whether Socialism promotes liberty and freedom for years but there is considerable evidence that it does not as it has been practiced for the last 75 years or so.



Most Arabs are not islamo-fascists. However both Israel and America's actions of late have on the whole tended to encourage and strengthen those tendencies amongst the arab nations.

Timothy

Except that I see Isreal's most recent actions as self-defense, and I encourage that.
However that said I do not support many of Israel's actions especially over the past decade or so.

[No Swansong]

Quite firmly on the side of the underdog--that's the Arabic people I'm afraid. Until Israel gets of it's high horse of supremacy, I'm afraid I'm not real interested in giving them the time of day.

Timothy

You Timothy should know that they are surrounded by governments who desire their complete destruction. I think I would tend to be very defensive in that situation as well.

[ContraMundum]

Quite firmly on the side of the underdog--that's the Arabic people I'm afraid. Until Israel gets of it's high horse of supremacy, I'm afraid I'm not real interested in giving them the time of day.

Timothy

Tim, with respect, you should think a little more on the topic before you take the side of Iran's Mullahs and their Hitlerian president of apocalyptic proportions.

This isn't about whether or not you think Israel has a pompous attitude (which is merely opinion anyway), nor is it about turf. It's about civilizations.

You might want to read this article- written by a British professor and think again: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525812575&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Think about what kind of civilization you want to support- the kind that beheads people because of their race or religion or one that allows diversity- the kind that builds nations from deserts by ingenuity and sheer productive effort or the kind that blames America for their all their woes.

I have no idea why people support Hezbollah or Hamas or Al-Queda. They'd behead a "supportive" Westerner in a blink, and video tape it, just to make a religious or political statement...and if they ever got power, they'd deny you everything you think you have the right to.

[Aymn27]

Lebanon yes, not so with Iraq. When there is no choice there is no democracy.





We could debate whether Socialism promotes liberty and freedom for years but there is considerable evidence that it does not as it has been practiced for the last 75 years or so.





Except that I see Isreal's most recent actions as self-defense, and I encourage that.
However that said I do not support many of Israel's actions especially over the past decade or so.
Amen! to all....

btw Timothy - democracy does not ensure freedom either. There is cost/benefit sell off for freedom. I would argue that there is "less freedom" with each percentage point a national tax rate increases.

[karen freeinchristman]

so I thought I'd just insert it here. The Israel/Arab/Western world conflict is so disheartening to me. I am not as well informed as I would like to be, but here in Britain, the message we've been getting in the media is that the Israel/Lebanon conflict is all connected to the world-wide Islamic terrorist's agenda to draw people in and force them to chose sides. I think it's pretty scary. Here, young Muslims (even more so than older Muslims) are becoming more and more isolated in their communities, choosing to withdraw from participation with the wider British culture.

From MSN News:
"Almost a quarter of British Muslims believe the July 7 terror were justified because of Britain's support for the war on terror, a poll has revealed." More here (httphttp://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=736317://).

[SirTimothy]

Tim, with respect, you should think a little more on the topic before you take the side of Iran's Mullahs and their Hitlerian president of apocalyptic proportions.

[insert tones of Humphrey Appleby ;)]With the greatest possible respect, minister[/tones] I never said I supported the Arabic leaders.

I have no idea why people support Hezbollah or Hamas or Al-Queda.

Neither do I. I've never supported them or their actions, I think they are absolutely terrible and awful. Let's take a look at what I actually said:

Quite firmly on the side of the underdog--that's the Arabic people I'm afraid.

I said I supported the Arabic people. The ordinary arabic people who would just like to live their lives and would be happy to see Jews living theirs. This view is prevalent across the middle east in many of the countries we work in. Many Arabs have an attitude of live and let live.

It's the attitude of America and Israel which encourages the rabid fundamentalism which is slowly starting to spread across the region. The ordinary arab people are the people who lose out with EVERY terrorist attack, whether it's American terrorism, Israeli terrorism or terrorism by arabic people.

There were mass protests in Iran just a few months back against the government. It's people like those that I adamantly support, just as I am against all terrorism, which includes some of the recent actions of both America and Israel AS WELL AS SOME of the recent actions of Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't support any of it, and neither do many of the moslems we work with every day. However the problem is when America and Israel deny that their own actions are just as bad as the terrorists, which from my point of view is stupid. Their actions have been worse in many cases in the past few weeks, months, years, and decades. Denying that only strengthens the cause of the terrorists.

The BEST way to tackle the problem of islamic fundamentalism is not force, that merely encourages and strengthens it, it's with the life-giving gospel of Jesus Christ. However the actions of america have forced a large percentage of the missionaries out of Iraq, and the action of Israel has forced pretty well the entire mission community out of Lebanon. That upsets me, because the longer these people who God has called to the region cannot be in those countries, the longer people will have to be without hearing the good news of Jesus. The budget for just one of the missiles that was used in Iraq could have supported a team of missionaries there for at least two years.

I can probably get off my MK hobby-horse now as I've scared you all off. ;)

Timothy

[ContraMundum]

I said I supported the Arabic people. The ordinary arabic people who would just like to live their lives and would be happy to see Jews living theirs.

That's true, for now. However, the propaganda machine is alive and well in Arab lands, and this neutral stance will not last much longer.

It's the attitude of America and Israel which encourages the rabid fundamentalism which is slowly starting to spread across the region.

I don't think I could buy that, personally speaking. It tends to simplify a complex probelm and seeks to shift blame.

As I said in another thread- Blaming Israel for anti-semite Islamic extremism is like blaming deers for deer hunters.

A number of well informed Arab journalists have pointed out how authorties in Arab countries use the anti-US-Israel issue to shift attention away from very real problems within their own nations- issues that lie unaddressed and which allow the powers that be to stay in a static political position. In other words, to fan the flames of anti US/Israel sentiment by carefully engineered, biased media attention is a way of providing unity in what would otherwise be a dire political situation revealing deep rooted political and religious corruption and ineptitude within Arab political entities. Hating the Jews is a good way to get popular support to stay in power while your country falls apart around you.

There were mass protests in Iran just a few months back against the government.

Yep. That's true- and the gov't played the Jew card in the media and got away with it's Satanic agenda once again. What kind of protests do we see now? You guessed it- anti US/Israel ones.

[SirTimothy]

anti-semite Islamic extremism

I'm sorry, I'll answer seriously later, but I find the idea of Moslems being able to be anti-semitic hilarious. Given that they're semites too...

[ContraMundum]

I'm sorry, I'll answer seriously later, but I find the idea of Moslems being able to be anti-semitic hilarious. Given that they're semites too...

You know as well as I do that the term anti-semite refers to Jews in modern language usage. Local usages in linguistics is very useful in cutting through the rubbish and getting to the point, Tim. ;)

We all use generalised terms- here's an example of how you just did-

You just said Muslims are semitic. To be pedantic about your comments here, not all Muslims are semitic, and not all semitic peoples are Muslims (or Jews). :) The point being I knew what you meant without your having to qualify it.

[SirTimothy]

Yes, I know, I was just trying to lighten the situation. I find such cases of english etymology intruiging. Maybe I'll find it even more fun when I start NT greek next year. ;)