View Full Version : Public Education
Greg the byzantine
25th July 2006, 09:33 AM
So as not to derail the other thread, I am starting this one.
As a product of public education, I have to say that I have no regrets being in the public school system since kindergarten. Every experience I have had, has helped me to develop in different ways, whether it is intelllectually, emotionally, socially, and psychologically.
I am first to amit that the public school system has its problems. Many problems which can actually be solved by the parents. When the parents play an active role in their childrens' education, administration is often willling to listen. Get involved with the PTA or the school board and play an active role in changing the schools, and improving them. Help your children with their work and support it with extra-curricular activities, and other projects to improve their skills.
If you think good public schools don't exist check out these NYC high schools:
http://staff.thhs.qc.edu/thhs/index.php
http://www.stuy.edu/about/
http://www.bths.edu/
http://insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=1001
I'll give you a heads up that I do attend one of the above mentioned high schools, and I believe going there is one of the best things that ever happened to me.
I have said my piece now it's time for you to say yours.
So speak up and say something positive about the public school system :thumbsup:,
rusmeister
25th July 2006, 10:45 AM
Hi Greg, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying on the other thread. You have an image that there are a mix of good and bad schools, and that with effort, parents and teachers can get together and make a school good.
I wouldn't argue that there are schools and districts here and there where a number of factors mitigate the central problems of the system. I believe that you had a good school experience.
What I am trying to tell you is that the system has been deliberately designed to ensure minimal education in spite of heroic efforts on the part of numerous teachers, parents and the children themselves, a seemingly crazy assertion, but if true, it would make what you're trying to say irrelevant.
I realize you disagree, but please consider what I said about people's experience and that they all have opinions regardless of their experience. Do you know who John Dewey was and what he helped force on us, or how the Ford and Carnegie Foundations continue to fund, and to a fair extent control, our school system, including teacher preparation? Where did the model that we use for school today come from? Have you noticed how different it is from the one-room school house? Have you thought about how that could be negative as well as positive?
What is the philosophy of the people who strategically plan our children's education?
What results can a majority of passing (or even straight 'A') 12th-grade English student show in writing today? How does his writing compare to just about any 19th century writer?
In short, did you read the links I offered?
You don't need to worry about derailing that thread. People are going to come and offer their opinions, and I am going to keep telling my story. My goal is to get people to start asking themselves those questions. The 2 that John Stormer proposes at the beginning of his book are so powerful, I could rest my case on them alone. But I'll leave you a little suspense.
choirfiend
25th July 2006, 10:47 AM
Who wants to post on topic? Greg made his own thread, let him have it.
Eusebios
25th July 2006, 10:57 AM
I was never overly impressed by my early public school experiences, but then I had nothing to really compare them with. I can honestly say that my experience in Ohio's University system has been overwhelmingly positive. I do get tired of hearing some people whine that God and discussion of one's faith has been pushed out of the system. I can say from experience,that, particularly as a History major, it has not and cannot.
Just my 2 cents worth.
In Xp,
Eusebios.
:bow:
Eusebios
25th July 2006, 10:57 AM
oops, double post :D
nutroll
25th July 2006, 11:39 AM
In short, did you read the links I offered?
I started reading Gatto, but didn't get very far. So far I'm not really impressed. I think if you are going to critique a system as being so utterly flawed, it would be a good idea to really show some statistical evidence. I understand that the US is not a leader in education, but that statistic alone proves nothing. Where did we start? Did we rise in the statistics or fall? Do other countries just do an amazing job and we have not been able to keep up with their improvements. I want to see statistical evidence that the school system is failing instead of being stagnant or slowly improving. I understand the value of anecdotal evidence, but it proves nothing. You and Gatto can talk about your experiences all you want, but it really doesn't make your experience any more universal than the experience of those of us who don't have a real problem with public education. And I do think that public education is flawed, but to be honest, there isn't a human system that is without flaws. I still think that the public education system works and that the problems it has can be overcome without completely overhauling the system. And I didn't read Stormer because I would have to order a copy of the book, and I'm not really rolling in cash right now.... if there is something online that you can point to that expresses the same thing without cost, I'm happy to take a look.
Maksim
25th July 2006, 11:53 AM
There are plenty of good teachers in state run schools. Though Rusmeister makes some good points that you should look at. Just because some public schools are decent, doesn't mean they wouldn't be better if they were private.
But the issue for me remains: why would I support funding certain (state-approved) schools by force?
Greg the byzantine
25th July 2006, 12:42 PM
Rusmeister, I am quoting directly from your Original Post in that thread
The reason for this is that my conclusion is that Orthodox Christians need to pull their kids out of public school period.
(Knee-jerk!!)
I don't need to read the links you provided, because your conclusion is a dead giveaway that I won't agree with what the articles have to say. Having experienced the Public School system first hand, I have come to a much different conclusion.
This thread is for people to share their positive experiences, or to post a question, or anything else they would like about public education (so yes you can continue posting Rusmeister). And since this is TAW, how public education has or has not afffected your religious beliefs will also be helpful. I just didn't want to change the course of discussion in Rusmeister's thread.
NyssaTheHobbit
25th July 2006, 01:42 PM
I went through the public school system, and got a decent education. It was the kids, not the school system itself, causing the most problems for Christian kids. And that just teaches Christian kids how not to live in a Christian bubble; they learn how to deal with real-life opposition, people who don't agree with them. We were not restricted from advertising Campus Life meetings, or even from forming an after-school prayer group which met in a classroom, because the Supreme Court allowed it. I intend to put my child(ren) through the public school system, and from what I've read about the local schools, they will have a chance at an excellent education.
Melethiel
25th July 2006, 06:26 PM
It varies from state to state. Down here in the southern areas, the public school system is sadly lacking. (IOW, they wouldn't let me skip more than one grade. ;) )
Llauralin
25th July 2006, 07:58 PM
Where is this conversation continued from? I haven't read the links, but have read one of Gotto's books. He has a lot of good to say if you take some of his more outraged or outragous assertions for what they're worth and don't get too wound-up over them (either offended or willing to try and dismantle the public schools, bite the teachers, and reduce the administrators office to rubble). For some more level-headed assessments of the educational establishment I'd recommend Theodore Sizer (who has a more likely solution), or Jaques Barzun.
Personally, I was homeschooled my whole life, and entered Jr College when I was 15 -- it worked out alright, but I obviously have little to contribute in the way of personal experience in the public schools. I do, however, have some experience with the teacher training professionals, as an art education student (I've also taken classes in English Ed. and general). Most of it is bosh. That particular system seems set up for the express purpose of weeding out andone who might have a fresh perspective on things, or simply doesn't like fawning over the latest theory, psycological model, or (quite simply) fad.
OnTheWay
25th July 2006, 10:33 PM
If you're lucky enough to go to one of the "magnet schools" you could have positive experiences in the American educational system. If you aren't that lucky you'll get an education that is slightly better than what most of the third world is getting. But you'll have fancy custom painted football helmets, so hey, yay for that.
rusmeister
26th July 2006, 02:45 AM
Who wants to post on topic? Greg made his own thread, let him have it.
You're right, and I apologize.
Please forgive me!:bow:
irishseventysix
26th July 2006, 05:32 AM
It varies from state to state. Down here in the southern areas, the public school system is sadly lacking. (IOW, they wouldn't let me skip more than one grade. ;) )
It's not so hot in Oregon, either. Especially Portland. Don't get me started...
I'm studying to be a high school history/geography teacher, though the possibility of teaching in the relatively nascent Classical Orthodox school that we have in Portland is very attractive to me. I just thoroughly appreciate that system.
My time in public school was okay, I suppose. I went to a private Baptist school from K-2 and then switched to public...where we didn't start catching up with what I learned in my old school until about 4th grade or so.
In 5th grade, I had a fantastic teacher that hammered English grammar into us, and I took to it like a duck to water. American History, too. And most of the stuff I learned in his class was simply reviewed repeatedly later on. I do wish that a little less emphasis was placed on competitive sports, and far more on music, drama, and art.
vanshan
26th July 2006, 08:54 AM
I attended a good public school. We had a solid tax base, which allowed our district to have very good facilities, teachers, etc. I graduated as a mediocre student, but found that I was very well prepared for college compared to many others. Educationally it was good, but socially it was a very destructive environment.
During my middle school years I rebelled and participated in many immoral things, however, later in high school I began to rebel against my peers and found the resistance to their culture of destruction actully benefitted my faith. Based on my observations, this counter-peer resistance was rare among my schoolmates. Some children may stay on the straight and narrow path of faith, but it seemed like the vast majority fall prey to terrible sins.
Also there are many direct attacks on faith academically, which can injure the faith of young students. I had teachers who would openly scoff at Christianity, mockingly saying that no one really can seriously believe the faith. The majority of students would laught or nod their heads in agreement, while a very small few, like me, just remained quiet. The public schools seem to make following Christ an even steeper climb. Why subject our children to such hazardous conditions, if safer harbors for our faith can be created?
Basil
ufonium2
26th July 2006, 01:33 PM
Public school allowed me to learn music without having to buy my own instrument. But we were in a really poor area where the government funded everything, and kids in middle-class areas don't have that. Their band/orchestra participation fees are ridiculous.
vanshan
26th July 2006, 03:24 PM
Public school allowed me to learn music without having to buy my own instrument. But we were in a really poor area where the government funded everything, and kids in middle-class areas don't have that. Their band/orchestra participation fees are ridiculous.
That's true. In poor areas the public schools can provide some, otherwise, hard to find opportunities--too bad modern ideas of separation of church and state have made them so hostile toward Christianity in most cases. Gone are the days when the schools reflected their local culture and classes could be started with prayer, if the local community wanted it. I think vouchers may be a good idea, but only if they are paid out to private schools without conditions being placed on them by the government.
Basil
OnTheWay
26th July 2006, 05:45 PM
I really think the movie "Cheaters" with Jeff Daniels is something everyone should see. It takes an honest look at how the public school system and magnet schools work.
Prawnik
26th July 2006, 09:09 PM
That particular system seems set up for the express purpose of weeding out andone who might have a fresh perspective on things, or simply doesn't like fawning over the latest theory, psycological model, or (quite simply) fad.
Sounds a lot like the business world. In this, the public school system serves a socially (if not spiritually) useful purpose.
Matrona
27th July 2006, 01:30 AM
I grew up going to public schools, and while I wouldn't rate it an overwhelmingly positive experience, most of the bad things that happened to me had to do with specific individuals within the system.
I think that a secular education is the next best thing to an Orthodox education, and that sending one's children to heterodox parochial school or homeschooling them is a bad idea.
Kids don't need a bunch of conflicting theological information hitting them, and I want my kids to love God as well as appreciate science. I especially don't want my kids in a school that teaches that flood geology garbage, or a literal six-day creation, or that the Church is not the Body of Christ, or that Halloween is evil, or anything else I won't approve of. None of that is going to come up in a public school. If I don't like the way the school handles sex education, I can revoke my permission for it to be taught to my children and teach it myself the way I want it to be taught.
I disagree with vouchers wholeheartedly. It might seem fair when looking at the idea from the student's perspective, but I don't think taking money out of the schools is going to help anyone. School vouchers clear the way for the middle/upper classes to get a more prestigious education than the poor, whose schools will have even more slashed budgets while they're bleeding voucher funds.
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 08:21 AM
Kids ARE getting theology thrown at them, Matrona. It is agnostic relativism, the denial that there can be objective truth, which makes Orthodoxy, indeed, Christianity out to be a nice belief, but not the truth, because there materialism is the only Truth.
Materialism is as much a philosophy as any other, and that is the guiding principal.
That doesn't mean that school must be a bad experience. You can have quite pleasant experiences, and if you're lucky learn long division, while being taught primarily to tolerate everything and believe in nothing. I don't doubt that some people here had a very pleasant school experience. What I find pleasantly surprising is that any kid could hold on to the faith of their parents in the face of 13 years of that philosophy. Most don't, and I imagine there could be scars (like a certain relativism) even among those that do.
I'll chime in with Basil - why subject our kids to that? because there is no alternative? Hogwash! It depends on how badly you want an alternative and what you're willing to sacrifice to make it happen. If it comes out that you're willing to sacrifice a little, but not much, well there you go. That's what it's worth to you.
As to vouchers, I am quite suspicious of them - but I do know that de-funding the public schools is an excellent idea. Money has never helped, and only hurt our schools. Where the money appears there come the bloated administrations. In Russia teachers make 2 to 4% what their American counterparts make, yet most Russian kids will still, 15 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, run circles around their American counterparts. It is one of the reasons I am where I am. (Although I do believe that this creeping globalism will bring our system to Russia eventually.)
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 09:56 AM
Still trying to get this man's case a fair hearing. If you refuse to even listen to the argument, how can you oppose it?
Nutroll - Gatto doesn't rely primarily or exclusively on his experience, although I think he has a better basis for doing so than an 18-yr old who has just finished high school. He left teaching in the US, as I did, and only later through research began to learn about the whys.
Real audio (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/multimedia/paradox.rm)
MP3 (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/multimedia/paradox.mp3)
When I write my book, I can refer you to a specifically Orthodox source. Until then, have to offer what I can.
choirfiend
27th July 2006, 10:34 AM
Rus,
I suppose we oppose it in general because we went through 13 years of public school. (I went through it in 5 different states, and I have siblings who are still in it) And we're not relativistic atheists.
I firmly believe that your parents have more to do with how a child turns out than the school does. If YOU instruct a chile in the way wherein he should walk, if he hears the truth at church, if he's RAISED ORTHODOX with all the connotations thereof--he will choose for himself what to believe. It depends what you're taught from your parents, your priests, your peers, your personal study....Not all schools have this agenda. Some may. Some teachers may tolerate too much in the name of NOT controlling your children and leaving it up to YOU to instill YOUR values in them, which could lead to relativism, but only if you don't instill your values.
OK, i thought of something that sums up what I currently think: Our kids are not in relativistic schools. They are in a relativistic CULTURE. The ideas which are counter to Orthodoxy can be found everywhere, in every medium. Taking your child out of school will not stop them from being flooded with the same ideas (if in fact they are being taught relativism, which I find varies depending upon the area and the teachers). I would rather have my children AWARE of what is being fed to them and how it is not compliant with Orthodoxy, actively taking the responsibility for exposing them to opposing ideas and keeping their faith IN SPITE OF what others may say. I find that exercise builds muscle strength, and challenge builds faith. So until I remove them to a non-relativistic culture (and Kenya is not looking that attractive) they will not be free from the threat of opposing values. And I'd rather raise children who are equipped to deal with anything their culture may throw at them.
In your area, the schools may not be up to your standards. By all means, educate your children as you see fit. But I think the whole Chicken Little thing that's going on is unnecessary.
nutroll
27th July 2006, 10:47 AM
Second times a charm... let's see if my computer lets me post without incident this time....
Rusmeister, I understand that Gatto says that his work is based on his experience and on his research. Unfortunately, in what I read so far (admittedly not much) he says that he does not footnote much in the way of sources and he does not get bogged down in statistics. This approach always makes me a little wary because it can be used to disguise dishonest or lacking research. I am giving it a fair reading, but so far I am just not persuaded.
Let me give you an example from my own life that may illuminate my position. My father spent 20 years or more working for the Orthodox Church. He graduated Seminary, He worked as a librarian in 2 Orthodox institutions. He read hundreds if not thousands of books about the Orthodox faith in numerous languages, he wrote books and articles on various Orthodox subjects, and now he does not even attend church, and can barely be coaxed into entering a church when there is no service going on. The reason for this is that he was mistreated by a number of people in the hierarchy of the church. I witnessed a great deal of it personally, and was shocked at the conduct of those involved. And yet, even though my Dad feels that the entire system is broken, others, including myself do not share that position.
There are problems with the school system, as there are problems in the church. You seem to believe that it is completely broken. Others think it is a system that needs to be fixed, but that it is not fundamentally flawed.
And as for whether children are taught a relativistic theology in public school, I think (and pardon me if I'm wrong here) that Matrona's point can be explained this way:a cubic zirconium looks like a diamond, and as such it can be hard to distinguish from the real thing. It is much easier to explain to kids that cow manure is not a diamond than to explain that a cubic zirconium is not a diamond.
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 12:00 PM
I'm going to respond further on the redux thread, as I don't want to hijack. If interested, look me up there. I don't want to say anything to people whose minds are made up.
vanshan
27th July 2006, 12:26 PM
In my parish, we see very few young adults raised in the Church still attending after high school or college, including the priest's two children. There may be a variety of reasons, so we can't assume all are apostate, but it's a sad reality in my parish. Have any of you seen this in your parishes? Of course, I'm not counting those who have simply moved away, I'm talking about those who still live nearby and simply don't attend services any longer.
Instilling faith in children, which will last, is a very uphill battle, so any extra help, such as having Orthodox schools should help. All of us, who are converts to Orthodoxy have been called out of darkness and are enthusiastically embracing the faith against our greater culture, but it is not always as easy for those who are Orthodox by default, having been born into an Orthodox household. Many of those children stay on for the ride, but later the far-reaching powers of culture seem to steal them away. If the path is truly narrow, then this makes sense, but if we hope that our children will not fall away, it will take greater effort on our part. God saves, not parents, but we have our responsibility to be obedient to God, by instructing our children in the faith and protecting them against wolves when it is in our power to do so.
Basil
choirfiend
27th July 2006, 12:31 PM
No one is Orthodox by default. It is always a choice. If it's not a choice, well, then maybe the person's not really Orthodox.
Many young people who attended church when they were younger were/are not instructed in the faith. They live in Sunday Christian families as much as anyone. So it is no wonder they drop away.
Many others seem to take a few years off. They go live their Prodigal Son way, and something someday triggers them to come back.
It is my generation who is the next set of Church leaders. And despite growing up in areas without Orthodox youth, despite seeing many fall away, I am optimistic. There are enough young people who are dedicated to the faith out there to make a real difference in the future.
I, for one, am not discouraging the idea of private schools, Orthodox or otherwise. Several of my close friends (non Orthodox and Orthodox now) were homeschooled, and it worked very well for them. I would love to teach in an Orthodox school where I knew my values were appreciated. I don't see it as a necessary step in order to "save ourselves" from something, however. Each family should do what is best for themselves.
OnTheWay
27th July 2006, 12:43 PM
If I don't like the way the school handles sex education, I can revoke my permission for it to be taught to my children and teach it myself the way I want it to be taught.
If you honestly think you'll have this sort of control in the modern government factory schools you're fooling yourself.
I disagree with vouchers wholeheartedly. It might seem fair when looking at the idea from the student's perspective, but I don't think taking money out of the schools is going to help anyone. School vouchers clear the way for the middle/upper classes to get a more prestigious education than the poor, whose schools will have even more slashed budgets while they're bleeding voucher funds.
The middle and upper class already have their children in private schools and they are getting a better education. The voucher system would simply allow people that don't already have to money to be able afford private schools and give them options.
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 03:23 PM
[quote=Matrona]
Kids don't need a bunch of conflicting theological information hitting them, and I want my kids to love God as well as appreciate science. I especially don't want my kids in a school that teaches that flood geology garbage, or a literal six-day creation, or that the Church is not the Body of Christ, or that Halloween is evil, or anything else I won't approve of. None of that is going to come up in a public school. If I don't like the way the school handles sex education, I can revoke my permission for it to be taught to my children and teach it myself the way I want it to be taught.
Hi Matrona, I'm not going to repeat what I've already said - people have made it plain, they agree or don't, and new evidence won't make a difference.
But I have to agree with OntheWay. You need to understand parental rights in the state and how these 'rights' are provided for in terms of realpolitik. You cannot revoke permission for something that you don't know is going on, and even if you have a child that shares everything with you, they won't understand what's going on until after the fact. While there is a little variation in how it is done from district to district, generally, teachers provide permission forms that parents are supposed to sign. In realpolitik, all kids are exposed to the subject taught unless parents actively object. If a kid loses a permission form, forgets about it (stuffed in the back of their schoolbag), or the default setting is "permission is granted", your children WILL be exposed to whatever the teacher thinks is appropriate. Many teachers today have no moral compass whatsoever, and they are often hailed as 'excellent teachers'. Yes, I have specific examples in mind, but won't refer to them here.
Are there any other teachers here who understand what I am talking about and will confirm it? (If not, then I am the local authority on this subject)
The system is set up so that your kids will be taught whatever is on the state agenda unless the parents are always keeping themselves informed as to what is being taught (which is extraordinarily difficult in most circumstances) and are ready to put up a fight if necessary to limit the
hemorrhage of godless thought being poured onto the kids.
You can't stop what you don't know about.
EricTheRed
27th July 2006, 03:39 PM
Before I discovered Orthodoxy I was thinking about becoming agnostic because of the crap in science class they were teaching. Stuff they cant even prove.
vanshan
27th July 2006, 03:56 PM
Before I discovered Orthodoxy I was thinking about becoming agnostic because of the crap in science class they were teaching. Stuff they cant even prove.
It takes faith to accept their "scientific" theories--it really is a religion for them. In fact, they are the worst bigots, from my experience, when it comes to tolerating other "religious" or scientific convictions. A young impressionable person is shaken when everyone around them, peers and instructors, all mock their faith. I don't think it's wise to throw children into the wolves den, if it can be avoided.
Basil
Matrona
27th July 2006, 04:24 PM
If you honestly think you'll have this sort of control in the modern government factory schools you're fooling yourself.
My parents had exactly this sort of control over my education. They couldn't even teach us about menstruation without a permission form.
I went to public school for twelve years, and was all over the place within it. I've been in accelerated and remedial programs by turns, and even failed a grade at one point. My experiences as a student within the public school system are about as broad as they come, so don't talk to me as if couldn't possibly have a clue what the public schools are like!
The middle and upper class already have their children in private schools and they are getting a better education. The voucher system would simply allow people that don't already have to money to be able afford private schools and give them options.
I come from an upper-middle class background and I didn't get to go to private school. Most of my neighbors' kids did, though, and none of them have done any better than me.
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 05:16 PM
Things are changing rapidly, Matrona. They've changed since your parents' time. You musn't assume the same conditions your parents enjoyed (although 'enjoy' is always a relative term here).
I'm not saying, and have never said, that no one knows what public schools are like - a silly statement since a majority have attended and/or graduated. But there are things that a 20-odd yr old can't possibly know about public schools from the teacher/admin side of it - you have to be qualified and accepted as a teacher, and spend several years at least at staff meetings to really form a good picture and almost no one here can say they've done that. Even fewer can say they've done that and are no longer on the system's payroll.
A majority of people here are familiar with the public school experience from the student/pupil side, I think. Please don't take those comments (by OtW or myself) personally!
Matrona
27th July 2006, 05:36 PM
Things are changing rapidly, Matrona. They've changed since you're parents' time.
Don't you mean "your", Mr. Grammar Expert? :P
You musn't assume the same conditions your parents enjoyed (although 'enjoy' is always a relative term here).
I know every school is different, and some may be more permissive than the ones I went to, but schools don't exist in a vacuum, and when parents find themselves blindsided by something their kid is being taught, it's usually because the parent wasn't paying attention.
I'm not saying, and have never said, that no one knows what public schools are like - a silly statement since a majority have attended and/or graduated.
I was responding to OTW's rather insulting remark, not you.
But there are things that a 20-odd yr old can't possibly know about public schools from the teacher/admin side of it
Being a frequent guest in the principal's office, I saw and heard an awful lot of stuff over the years. I know what I'm talking about.
EricTheRed
27th July 2006, 05:57 PM
Since I am in a public school now. In a lower middle class or upper lower class area, I have one thing to say. Its a pit of apathy.
Greg the byzantine
27th July 2006, 06:41 PM
Actually like Matrona said all schools here have to get written permission to talk to kids about sex-ed/health. If a parent does not sign a permssion slip, their child can not be in the classroom if such things are discussed. (they are usually brought to the lunchroom or cafeteria to play a game or just hang out) In High School it doesn't matter, because Health class and Biology are required where such things are discussed. I was fine with it, and it didn't change my opinions about sex, contraception and the like.
OnTheWay
27th July 2006, 07:07 PM
My parents had exactly this sort of control over my education. They couldn't even teach us about menstruation without a permission form.
And yet last year there was a big to do in the media about required general "health classes" teaching kids to put rubbers on bananas. Your parents may have had a better level of control, however things are changing quite quickly. This will vary from district to district, but odds are better than not the control you have over what any children you may have is going to be limited.
I come from an upper-middle class background and I didn't get to go to private school. Most of my neighbors' kids did, though, and none of them have done any better than me.
It's a matter of common knowledge private school students do better on the SAT's, have a lower college drop out rate than their public counterparts, and are simply better prepared for college. Nothing works in absolutes, however there is clear data showing private schools out preform public.
rusmeister
27th July 2006, 11:44 PM
Don't you mean "your", Mr. Grammar Expert? :P
Doh! :doh:
She got me!
(Grovels in shame in the dirt)
I know that you know what you know and have seen what you've seen, re - principal's office, etc. Children in school can see quite a lot of messed up things.What I'm referring to is the endless staff and district meetings and training sessions where parents and children are not generally a part of things. As I said in the other thread, it is the analogy of the knowledge of the person who has applied to medical school vs that of someone who's been a doctor for 20-30 years in both hospital and private practice. The med student hasn't had time to learn hospital politics, much less understand why they developed the way they did. The med student isn't stupid; he's seen what the patients see, but he just hasn't yet had the opportunity to see what goes on behind closed doors in admin. Not trying to say that you don't know anything.
Finally, schools do have differences, but the teachers are all processed through the same system with the same requirements. The requirements vary little from state to state today. This has had a major impact on why the problems that everyone talks about are nationwide, and not limited to a few schools that are aberrations, and despite the fact the so many intelligent and good-hearted teachers struggle to really teach all of their students. How to explain this? Who to listen to when everyone has an opinion?
rusmeister
28th July 2006, 12:09 AM
Regarding permission forms. Yes, the requirement is there on paper and action is formally taken. However, what exactly teachers have to do has gotten more slippery. In the first place, what content actually requires permission/ is considered controversial has changed along with the moral climate of the nation. In many cases permission will not be sought - an 'R' rated film, a poem by a teen advocating suicide, etc.
Then, in most cases where they do seek permission they give the form to the children. In high profile/controversial situations they may mail it home, but that's more trouble and expense. In either case, not all parents find out about the offered material. Kids forget or lose the forms, mail is picked up too late or by younger brother and lost.
Lastly, in realpolitik often the true default setting is that permission to be exposed to the offensive material is denied only to those whose parents actively object.
There are enough holes in the permission form system to concern any parent who wants to be informed. OntheWay has a good point.
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