Forget the problem in the Middle -East...

[Kolya]

look South!
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1191880.ece

BTW, H.E. Patriarch Bartholomew was there too.:)

Should we be getting ready for something big to happen soon?:eek:

Actually, I just want to :cry:

[Michael the Iconographer]

It is kind of hard to forget what is going on in the Middle East when there are major historical signs which suggest that if the situation is not handled properly, we are on the verge of full scale World War. But then, it might already be too late to stop that from happening. Have the Europeans learned nothing from the last world war and their failed policy of appeasing Hitler?

[Jacob4707]

It is kind of hard to forget what is going on in the Middle East when there are major historical signs which suggest that if the situation is not handled properly, we are on the verge of full scale World War. But then, it might already be too late to stop that from happening. Have the Europeans learned nothing from the last world war and their failed policy of appeasing Hitler?

They don't equate men with full beards with men with mustaches, toothbrush or otherwise.

[Happy Orthodox]

The prophesies say that the oceans will boil up and evaporate at the end of times. The Antichrist would be the only provider of food and water. It's gonna be pretty nasty. Nastier than it ever was.

And the WWIII is on its way, the prophesies are positive about that, too.

The Tsar of Russia is going to come back after the WWIII and rule as an Orthodox Emperor uniting all Orthodox countries... etc.

[Lotar]

The prophesies say that the oceans will boil up and evaporate at the end of times. The Antichrist would be the only provider of food and water. It's gonna be pretty nasty. Nastier than it ever was.

And the WWIII is on its way, the prophesies are positive about that, too.

The Tsar of Russia is going to come back after the WWIII and rule as an Orthodox Emperor uniting all Orthodox countries... etc.

Where did you hear about these prophesies?

[jckstraw72]

The Tsar of Russia is going to come back after the WWIII and rule as an Orthodox Emperor uniting all Orthodox countries... etc.

I also heard this from Fr. Epiphanios at St. Nektarios Monastery in NY. It might have been St. Nektarios who made these prophecies, I forget.

[Happy Orthodox]

Where did you hear about these prophesies?

I heard about it a while ago, don't remember now. But the prophesies have 2 sources -- Mt. Athos and Russia. They pretty much say the same thing. WWIII, Tsar of Russia coming back, the Orthodox Church fall into heresy. Only some remote Orthodox churches will have Liturgies, and you will have to look for them. Monasticism banned. Mother-earth for dinner. Watch for wolfs in sheep's clothes! I also heard that the new martyrs in the end of days would receive crowns just by staying by Christ and ancient Orthodoxy, so tough it will be! Not only hard physically, but spiritually -- the Antichrist would be so persuasive that it would take great faith in Christ to stay away from his deceit.

The first one about the boiling oceans is from St. Nilus the Myrrstreamer from Mt. Athos.

Lord have mercy! :crosseo:

[Michael the Iconographer]

They don't equate men with full beards with men with mustaches, toothbrush or otherwise.

Seriously though, the Europeans have learned nothing from the last round of this kind of stuff. They tried to appease Hitler for 6 years and all it got was the near total destruction of Europe. If the Americans had not bailed the rest of Europe out, Hitler would have won the war.

[EricTheRed]

I think the soviet union could have won without us to be honest. But we did save europe from becoming communist.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I think the soviet union could have won without us to be honest. But we did save europe from becoming communist.

No Russia could not have beat Hitler without us. Hitler almost had England when the US enterred the war. Once Hitler had England, Russia would have gotten the full brunt of the Wehrmacht and it would have been toast.

[Matrona]

I think the soviet union could have won without us to be honest.

I think so, too, but remember that the Soviet Union suffered an appalling number of casualties. The total number of people killed in World War II is 62.5 million, and Soviets alone made up about 23.2 million of that.

If the Soviet Union had been forced to fight the war alone, they may have won, but their population would have been ground to dust.

[Lotar]

No Russia could not have beat Hitler without us. Hitler almost had England when the US enterred the war. Once Hitler had England, Russia would have gotten the full brunt of the Wehrmacht and it would have been toast.

Not really. The German's never could have gotten past the Royal Navy, and they were defeated in the Battle of Britian. The Royal Navy would have beaten back the German sub forces without US support as well.

Russia did recieve large subsities from the US, but they probably could have won anyways. Stalin relocated the industrial base to the Ural mountains, and started pumping out tanks and weapons far outpacing the Germans. They most likely would have won, it just would have been more costly.

Our role in WWII was more of a race against the Soviets for Europe. German scientists were a prized commodity.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I think so, too, but remember that the Soviet Union suffered an appalling number of casualties. The total number of people killed in World War II is 62.5 million, and Soviets alone made up about 23.2 million of that.

If the Soviet Union had been forced to fight the war alone, they may have won, but their population would have been ground to dust.


I doubt it. The German Army would have beat the Soviet Union one on one in that war, it was even able to beat Russia on one front and England/France on the other. It was just when the U.S. was introduced into the war that it became too much for the Wehrmacht.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Not really. The German's never could have gotten past the Royal Navy, and they were defeated in the Battle of Britian. The Royal Navy would have beaten back the German sub forces without US support as well.


Germany was doing a pretty good job laying waste to England when the Americans became involved in the war.

Anyways, you are all looking past my OP which is that Europe has not learned it's lesson. The Europeans appeased, appeased, appeased Hitler for 6 years and it got them nowhere except smack dab in the middle of WWII. There is no appeasing the Islamic fascists. They will not be happy until they have destroyed the west and Israel. There is no civilized fighting with terrorists. There comes a time when a nation must stand up and defend itself, and Israel has every right to do just that.

[Lotar]

I doubt it. The German Army would have beat the Soviet Union one on one in that war, it was even able to beat Russia on one front and England/France on the other. It was just when the U.S. was introduced into the war that it became too much for the Wehrmacht.

The Germans had a resonding initial success on both fronts, but they failed to meet their objectives on the eastern front. They lost the war when they failed to reach Moscow.

[Matrona]

The Germans had a resonding initial success on both fronts, but they failed to meet their objectives on the eastern front. They lost the war when they failed to reach Moscow.

Don't forget the siege of Leningrad/St. Petersburg. The Germans lost even though the siege killed a third of the city's population over 900 days.

[EricTheRed]

It all depends on the Russian industry. If they start fighting russia before russia starts churning out tanks.

[prodromos]

The Germans had a resonding initial success on both fronts, but they failed to meet their objectives on the eastern front. They lost the war when they failed to reach Moscow.
They were not expecting a Winter campaign but had been seriously delayed by the Greeks so they were not properly prepared (not enough warm clothing etc.). I think the Russian Winter killed more German troops than the Russians did.

John

[Emmanuel-A]

It is kind of hard to forget what is going on in the Middle East when there are major historical signs which suggest that if the situation is not handled properly?

What would be a "proper handling" ? Bomb Israel ? Bomb Iran ? Bomb Syria ? Increase the 2000 useless blue helmets that have been on the border for years ? If you have anything to suggest. Why is it Europe's duty more than anyone's else ?



Have the Europeans learned nothing from the last world war and their failed policy of appeasing Hitler?

I think we learnt a lot. We are friends with all our neighbours and that's almost the first time since the Roman empire.

[rusmeister]

I've learned a little in my years of slowly becoming an expert on Russia.

*Warning: I am not championing a particular point of view here - I am only relating what people believe (the popular view, not the well-educated view).*

I started out with my American education, which said that we totally won the 2nd World War, 99% of the load was ours, and at least 50% on the European front (or so I was both taught and read in the books available to me).

Imagine my shock when I learned that the Russians knew almost nothing about the war with Japan (this was the early 90's)! For them the war was called the Great Patriotic War (which meant it was all about Russia vs Germany), and their version (still) says that the US opened the 2nd front (with Germany) far too late - and many think on purpose in order to let Germany ravage and weaken Russia). What they know about American participation starts mostly in the middle of 1944 - from that perspective, the US fought against Germany directly for less than a year.

Only recent Hollywood films - like Pearl Harbor, Saving Private Ryan, Windtalkers, etc. - have begun to give them any idea that there might have been a slightly more global war going on.

Also, a great many families here can still say that they lost somebody in the war, something that a much smaller percentage of Americans can say, and May 9th, Victory day is one of their biggest holidays.

I have gotten into more than one 'shouting match' over the differing versions of history while slowly realizing that the truth lies somewhere in between. Our histories are skewed, too, Michael, just as theirs are, to favor the country or side which wrote them. Consider Japan's problem to this day in acknowledging war atrocities.

Anyway, it's nice to play Monday morning quarterback with the war and be an armchair general, but don't place too much faith in what you've been taught. You need to go back as an adult, sift through what you have and even then keep an eye open and don't rush to buy dogma.

Force is usually a lousy answer, even when it seems like it might be a good idea. And those of us who aid in decisions for force will ultimately have to answer before God for every innocent baby, child, mother or man killed by stray bombs, bullets and high tempers.

Remember what Gandalf said to Frodo in the Lord of the Rings? "Many that live deserve death. And many that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then don't be too quick to deal out death and judgement. Even the Wise cannot see all ends."

[Kolya]

Seeing this thread got so far from my OP, my 2 kopeks. I am praying for the inocents in Lebanon as well as Israel. They're between a rock and a hard place. No matter what, I firmly believe we're all of us standing on the brink of WW3, and it's not a pleasant thought. If I have to be a martyr, I pray for the grace and strength to do the right thing. If blame has to be laid for the coming storm, it lies squarly with the father of lies. Everyone else is just his pawn. Nuff said!

[EricTheRed]

If it is WWIII. I hope the West can see the enemy is not a few rouge states but the ideology of Islam itself. But chances are most of europe will sit it out till they realize 1/2 the muslim crazies are in there own nations.

[Michael the Iconographer]

What would be a "proper handling" ? Bomb Israel ? Bomb Iran ? Bomb Syria ? Increase the 2000 useless blue helmets that have been on the border for years ? If you have anything to suggest. Why is it Europe's duty more than anyone's else ?




I think we learnt a lot. We are friends with all our neighbours and that's almost the first time since the Roman empire.

Proper handling would be to let Israel do as it needs to do. Israel should not need to give in to these terrorists threats, and should be allowed to defend itself without being yelled at by Europe and America telling it to just let the terrorists do as they please. How would the French react to having Paris bombed by terrorists? Would they be saying the same things they are telling the Israelis? I don't think so. There is a time when push comes to shove. And for Israel it is well past that point.

You can't be friends with the Islamic Fascists. They do not want to be your friends, they hate you because you are not a militant Islamic, and want to see you destroyed because you are western.

[Emmanuel-A]

Proper handling would be to let Israel do as it needs to do. Israel should not need to give in to these terrorists threats, and should be allowed to defend itself without being yelled at by Europe and America telling it to just let the terrorists do as they please. How would the French react to having Paris bombed by terrorists? Would they be saying the same things they are telling the Israelis? I don't think so. There is a time when push comes to shove. And for Israel it is well past that point.

Our yelling is of little effect anyway.


You can't be friends with the Islamic Fascists. They do not want to be your friends, they hate you because you are not a militant Islamic, and want to see you destroyed because you are western.

When I refered to friends, I was talking about the EU countries. Not about Islamic fascists with whom, you are right, we can hardly be friends.

[Michael the Iconographer]

When I refered to friends, I was talking about the EU countries. Not about Islamic fascists with whom, you are right, we can hardly be friends.

You mean the French and Germans are actually friends now? IS OUTRAGE! :P

[Emmanuel-A]

You mean the French and Germans are actually friends now?

Well, I meant our governments officially are, nothing more :D .

[Michael the Iconographer]

Well, I meant our governments officially are, nothing more :D .

Atleast you are not telling me the Bavarians and Prussians are getting along!