I think I was bad this morning

[rainbowbright]

My husband and I both skipped DL this morning, which meant our kids didn't go either. I decided to go to my old Episcopal church instead and take my daughter and not my son.
I just wanted to get a western liturgy fix and didn't feel like driving an hour to the western rite Orthodox parish. I know Father is keeping tabs on me because I asked him earlier if I could stop coming to church until the weather cools down- you can only guess what his answer was, but I wasn't there last week (I went to celebrate my grandmother's b-day) or yesterday either, so he's probably going to tell me I'm slipping. The good thing about going to my old church was that I kept my daughter with me(there aren't any children around during the service) and everyone commented on how well behaved she was; my only thought was of course she's Orthodox. I also didn't know what the Orthodox church's stance on going up for a blessing was, but I did and made sure I recieved a blessing from a particular priest who is good friends with father, would become Orthodox in an instant if his wife let him and knows me very well- he also complained the last time I went there and didn't go up for a blessing.
Sorry feeling guilty and just rambling

[Khaleas]

We didn't go anywhere either because I have an eye infection... so it wasn't just the fan in our bedroom. :sigh: I got drops at home (cat version but it's the same darn thing as in the human ones) so I'm looking and feeling a bit better. I'm still in a cruddy mood for some reason, but hopefully I'll snap out of it soon.
I've gotten three boxes unpacked and now I just need to unload and load the dishwasher a few times and I will be all set for tonight.

[Jacob4707]

We were told by our priest that if a person misses DL three times without having spoken to him about the reasons ahead of time, he/she is automatically excommunicated - i.e., they cannot take communion without first talking with him and/or going to confession.

I think he said DL, but maybe if a person attended vespers or other services during that 3-week (or actually 4-week) period, it's not treated like being absent for 3-4 weeks in a row.

[Khaleas]

We were told by our priest that if a person misses DL three times without having spoken to him about the reasons ahead of time, he/she is automatically excommunicated - i.e., they cannot take communion without first talking with him and/or going to confession.

I think he said DL, but maybe if a person attended vespers or other services during that 3-week (or actually 4-week) period, it's not treated like being absent for 3-4 weeks in a row.

That's the original version when no one was living too far from church and there wasn't anyone working on Sundays. It's definitely a good 'rule of thumb' but definitely not something all priests follow. I've missed church so much because of travels in the past months that I'm getting very unhappy about it. Well, just under three more weeks I'm spending ten days at a monastery for another embroidery class so I can go to church 3 times a day and that should get my 'rear-in-gear'. I hope my friend from Holland comes, she's a nun, so she can kick me out of bed for 6 am services. ^_^

[rainbowbright]

I need to get my but in gear, but I did tell my priest that Sunday mornings are so hard for me because I have insomnia during the night and it's so blooming hot that I nearly pass out during the service. He says he understands and that I've been doing real well attending, but I feel I'm really slacking

[rusmeister]

There will always be reasons not to go.
One good question - would/could we use these reasons as explanations for not showing up to work?

Regularly attending an Orthodox church is an important part of our faith. One of the things I think of about the word service is that it is not we who are going to be served, but to serve. God.

Do we hold Church at least at the same level we hold our jobs? If it's a good enough excuse to not show up at work, it may be a good enough reason to not go to church. For example, if one of our kids is really sick, one of us adults stays home and the other takes the other kids to church. But if you're really passing out in church you may have a medical condition that requires economia, or even help from the Church, if you can't make services on a regular basis. Here in my town, the priest goes to the hospital on Tuesdays to administer Communion to the sick that can't go to church.

As to attending a non-Orthodox church, I don't know what to say to that. I don't see the logic, unless you doubt or don't believe in Orthodoxy. I could imagine that there might be circumstances where you might do so with the blessing of an Orthodox priest, but I can't imagine what they might be. Many people commute for an hour or more to work. Are we willing to make the same effort for church?

I don't want to sound judgemental, and please forgive me if I seem to be. But when I was agnostic I regularly drove my wife to an Orthodox church in San Francisco (Holy Trinity), an hour's drive, and I didn't even believe, but it was that important to my wife, who did believe, and her insistence on it lead to my eventually converting to Orthodoxy. (Thank goodness we later found a closer parish - only half an hour)

It's not Orthodox to believe that it doesn't matter what church you go to.

[Orthocat]

My husband and I both skipped DL this morning, which meant our kids didn't go either. I decided to go to my old Episcopal church instead and take my daughter and not my son.
I just wanted to get a western liturgy fix and didn't feel like driving an hour to the western rite Orthodox parish. I know Father is keeping tabs on me because I asked him earlier if I could stop coming to church until the weather cools down- you can only guess what his answer was, but I wasn't there last week (I went to celebrate my grandmother's b-day) or yesterday either, so he's probably going to tell me I'm slipping. The good thing about going to my old church was that I kept my daughter with me(there aren't any children around during the service) and everyone commented on how well behaved she was; my only thought was of course she's Orthodox. I also didn't know what the Orthodox church's stance on going up for a blessing was, but I did and made sure I recieved a blessing from a particular priest who is good friends with father, would become Orthodox in an instant if his wife let him and knows me very well- he also complained the last time I went there and didn't go up for a blessing.
Sorry feeling guilty and just rambling


ok, say 3 Hail Marys and.....oh wait, wrong church.

I came from an Episcopal Church - but we can't go back for a visit unless we want to chant "boogie oogie oogie" to the goddess Astarte or the sun god Ra.
I don't think a visit somewhere every now and again is a big deal - but that's just me.
Yesterday we spent Sunday morning at a "Bikers Against Child Abuse" event sponsored by a charismatic church. We definitely felt far from home let me tell ya. God leads us in diverse ways to diverse places.

Of course, staying home because of a "bad hair" day may be a different matter :)

[cobweb]

I stayed home too. No gas in the car.

[Jacob4707]

So, if a person finds themself being stuck at home or unable to attend church, what can one do in its stead? Is there a service one can do in one's home? I know it won't be the DL with the Eucharist, but if one is alone, or with one's spouse and/or kids, and gas money lack, snow, illness, etc., made attending the DL impossible, what can one do in one's icon corner that "bridges the gap" and is perhaps more complete than just the daily prayers?

[Anhelyna]

Hope I don't get shouted down producing this

http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/services.htm

Readers Services - I use this when I can't get to Church

[rusmeister]

Why on earth would anyone shout you down? Sometimes there are overriding reasons why you can't go and doing what you can (do they call it a "reader's service"?) is sure a lot better than doing nothing.
Great link, and thank you!

[Anhelyna]

Rusmeister - don't forget I'm not 'Big O ' O

I'm the oddity - the Greek Catholic - and folk forget that we do use the same Liturgy etc.

I can think of other Orthodox Christians [ not on TAW :D] who would tell me that I should not use a Readers Service - I would be reminded by RC's that it's a sin to miss Mass.

[eoe]

I know Father is keeping tabs on me because I asked him earlier if I could stop coming to church until the weather cools down- you can only guess what his answer was, but I wasn't there last week (I went to celebrate my grandmother's b-day) or yesterday either, so he's probably going to tell me I'm slipping.

Does your parish not have AC? Why does the weather come into play? Do you walk?:scratch:

[ClementofRome]

Does your parish not have AC? Why does the weather come into play? Do you walk?:scratch:

Just a funny side note....our Temple is very small and we meet in a house that has been converted into a Temple. It has a small A/C window unit that is toward the front near the iconostasis. The incense was so thick yesterday that my wife pointed at the A/C unit and it was circulating the incense and blowing it HARD in our direction! :)

The temp was fine, but the smoke was think!

[eoe]

Just a funny side note....our Temple is very small and we meet in a house that has been converted into a Temple. It has a small A/C window unit that is toward the front near the iconostasis. The incense was so think yesterday that my wife pointed at the A/C unit and it was circulating the incense and blowing it HARD in our direction! :)

The temp was fine, but the smoke was think!^_^
Funny. My parish is quite large:
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65260&d=1140726006
http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65261&d=1140726006

Depending on where you sit you might not even get so much as a whiff of incense. That is one thing that I enjoy when visiting small parishes is the thick cloud they can get going. You just don't get that in a large space. There certainly are benefits either way - small and large.

[ClementofRome]

That is beautiful. This is us temporarily...we break ground on a new Temple in the fall!


http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79738&d=1153756712

[eoe]

Oh yeah.. in that room it would look like a Cheech and Chong movie with just a little effort.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

If it makes you feel any better RB, I haven't been to DL in 2 weeks b/c I stayed out too late Sat night. :sorry:

[rainbowbright]

If it makes you feel any better RB, I haven't been to DL in 2 weeks b/c I stayed out too late Sat night. :sorry:
:D shame on you

[rainbowbright]

Does your parish not have AC? Why does the weather come into play? Do you walk?:scratch:

We don't have ac because when father built the temple, he was very frugal and found out it would be too expensive. I really don't know why I have such a hard time in the heat, but I do have two of my own personal heaters being pregnant with twins and all.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

:D shame on you

Yes, yes, I know. Confession needs to occur in quick order. :)

[zebu]

I don't get why you would go to the Episcopal Church. It is one thing if you are ill and unable to go to church, but going to another church just because you wanted to? Why would you not want to receive Jesus in the Divine Liturgy? And you really shouldn't have received a blessing or even prayed in the Episcopal Church, Orthodox shouldn't do that.

[Khaleas]

Yes, yes, I know. Confession needs to occur in quick order. :)

Hahah, I just peeved my husband off because I said I won't come to any Navy functions this weekend. Well, I want to go up to Bmore to church and go to confession and communion before I travel again. So everything was supposed to be scheduled just fine, Friday evening and Sun evening. Now it's been moved from Fri evening to Sat evening and I just refused to give up my trip. He has to go so oh well. :sigh:

[OnTheWay]

Well being with child I'm sure there would be some slack regarding attending if the heat is an issue. On the other note, you should not go and pray with the heterodox, it is sinful to do so and should be confessed.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Perhaps you could ask your priest for an oikonomia, and request to carry a cold water bottle in church?

Maybe this will help with the heat issue?

(Having never been with child I offer this advice in total ignorance. :sorry: )

[rainbowbright]

My priest did tell us it was okay for us to attend other churches as long as we act Orthodox. I mainly went because I wanted to see some of my friends who I haven't seen in three years, however, being that I went their instead of DL, I have every intension of going to confession- I know it would've been better for me to stay home

[OnTheWay]

My priest did tell us it was okay for us to attend other churches as long as we act Orthodox. I mainly went because I wanted to see some of my friends who I haven't seen in three years, however, being that I went their instead of DL, I have every intension of going to confession- I know it would've been better for me to stay home

If you look at a number of Orthodox writings on preparing for confession, praying with heterodox is a rather commonly listed sin. If you'd like I can refer you to a number of documents, some are online others you'd have to find or buy.

[rainbowbright]

sure, I would like to look at them

[Matrona]

If you look at a number of Orthodox writings on preparing for confession, praying with heterodox is a rather commonly listed sin. If you'd like I can refer you to a number of documents, some are online others you'd have to find or buy.

Um, unless people come up to you and kiss your hand at church, I don't think you're quite qualified to dispense advice on what's sinful for rainbowbright and what isn't.

[Oblio]

^_^
Funny. My parish is quite large:

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65261&d=1140726006



I miss Fr. Michael (third from the left) :( .

[contriteheart]

praying with heterodox is a rather commonly listed sin.

Things like this are among the reasons I decided not to become Orthodox. (Not meaning you, personally, OnTheWay, but rather the idea presented here.)

-Grace

[contriteheart]

PS: I guess that's my rather inelegant way of announcing to TAW that I'm no longer an inquirer. I wasn't meaning to sound snippy. Please forgive me if I did.

-Grace

[contriteheart]

PS #2: I consider you all brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether you see me that way or not), and I am grateful for all the kindness I have received here.

Even if I never become Orthodox, I will always respect and appreciate you all. :)

-Grace

[contriteheart]

Sorry to have hijacked the thread. We now return to our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

[Oblio]

There is a reason why laity are not to read and interpret the canons.

IIRC, the canon re:prayer with heterodox is listed is to keep us from the snares of satan working through the heretics (and no, I not speaking of the local Protestant soup kitchen, but rather spending the weekend with JWs, or Mormons, or Wiccans). He who guides himself has a fool for a spiritual father.

[Matrona]

He who guides himself has a fool for a spiritual father.

...ooh.

:thumbsup:

Can I pretty please quote you on that?

[Oblio]

Certainly, though I paraphrased it from somewhere in my age riddled memory :)

[choirfiend]

It's oft quoted by Fr Hopko, though I'm sure he picked it up from a saint.

[rusmeister]

What I find disturbing is that a priest would say it's OK to attend other churches. If he said so, that certainly takes you off the hook, RB, but that a priest should say such a thing... Again, there may be circumstances beyond my ken (please note, Grace (if you're still around), that this is the saving point of orthodoxy. It's almost never 100% black and white. 99.5%, yes, but there can be situations that make for exceptions.

I would like to know if the priest's statement was broad and general, or highly tailored to your situation. (Not trying to dig for personal details, but if the former, that is cause for alarm and what could be a priest giving advice contrary to Orthodoxy).

[rainbowbright]

He completely meant it in general: several months ago he took some of our youth to a mega church just so they could see how there were other ways of worshipping out there.

[Jacob4707]

He completely meant it in general: several months ago he took some of our youth to a mega church just so they could see how there were other ways of worshipping out there.

Did he wear his cassock and cross?

[Orthocat]

He completely meant it in general: several months ago he took some of our youth to a mega church just so they could see how there were other ways of worshipping out there.


Megachurches scare me.
The Walmarts of Christianity.

I have a sister that really got into one - joined one of the 20 something women's groups there and found out in a not too good way it was actually a lesbian group some bored housewives had started.
When you get megabig it's hard to stay on top of what's being taught and done...

[choirfiend]

Going to another church's service isn't anything terrible. Choosing to go to another church's services over attending DL, purposely skipping church to attend elsewhere, that's not so good. It's a pity and a shame that people reject Orthodoxy based on the attitudes they find instead of the joy of the Truth and Christ in us that should come shining through. St. Seraphim did not say "bad mouth other beliefs and they will come," he said, "Acquire the Holy Spirit and thousand around you will be saved," and he shone with the uncreated light as one who has seen God, much like Moses. I feel like every time we start worrying/posting/badmouthing any other church (it's one thing to discuss doctrines and practices and show why they are wrong, it's another to just lump everything in heterodox and feel self-satisfied) we should go look at an icon for a while. It might bring us back to earth.

[Jacob4707]

praying with heterodox is a rather commonly listed sin.
Things like this are among the reasons I decided not to become Orthodox. (Not meaning you, personally, OnTheWay, but rather the idea presented here.)

PS: I guess that's my rather inelegant way of announcing to TAW that I'm no longer an inquirer. I wasn't meaning to sound snippy. Please forgive me if I did.

PS #2: I consider you all brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether you see me that way or not), and I am grateful for all the kindness I have received here.

Even if I never become Orthodox, I will always respect and appreciate you all. :)

-Grace

I, too, have struggled with the "broken communion" that would result if/when I became Orthodox.

But when I read the early church writings, and things like St. Cyril's catechetical & baptismal lectures - e.g., see this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081462281X/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-0263065-3092078?ie=UTF8

or read them online in an older translation at:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/TOC.htm

I am confronted with how utterly foreign to our modern way of thinking, as well as our modern forms of Christianity, the faith and beliefs and practices and rites of the earliest Christians are. In some ways the early church sounds like a weird or whacky cult like Scientology or some bizarre form of Freemasonry compared to what I'd always believed and accepted and practiced as a "Christian."

Every time I contemplate the bridge I'd be crossing (and the ones I'd be burning) in becoming Orthodox, I find myself plagued with questions, doubts and concerns. But then I ask myself:

1) What is on the other side of that bridge? Is that where the one holy catholic and apostolic Church of Jesus Christ is?

and

2) Who is on the other side of that bridge? Is that where Paul and John and Athanasius and Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, etc., are?

The more I read and study, the more it seems like the answer to those questions is "yes."

Yet I'm not ready or willing to cross the bridge.

Becoming a Christian and saying that Jesus Christ is the only way to God the Father was easy compared to becoming Orthodox and in effect rejecting 1) the practices and beliefs of the Christianity I have practiced and known for over 25 years and 2) the faith and practices of nearly all my Christian friends and coworkers - esp. since I know the Holy Spirit is active and effective in their lives and worship, despite the fact that much of what is done in modern Protestantism/non-denominationalism is seemingly greatly disconnected from, and at variance with, early Christian practices and beliefs.

[rainbowbright]

Did he wear his cassock and cross?

Yes he did and said he never got so many stares in his life. He also said people would walk up to him and quote Scripture at him and call him 'brother' neverminding his huge cross and acting as if they were teaching him