Justification Question

[tidbit]

Last weekend, I had a good discussion with a few old buddies from college. I am an inquirer into Orthodoxy, one friend is coverting to Catholicism, and the other is a Calvinist Protestant.

Earlier this week, my Protestant friend sent me the following e-mail--

I wanted to follow up our discussion about whether justification is by faith alone or also involves our works. Since you suggested that justification is not by faith alone, let me ask this. What specific works have you done that you believe contribute to your justification? The answer will clarify my understanding of what you are saying. Thanks


Now, this inquiry is more of a trap than a question.

From an Orthodox perspective, what should our answer be?

Please note that the question asks for a list of specific works, rather than a general discussion of the synergy of faith and obedience.

Thanks!

[rusmeister]

Well, the version for dummies like me is that true faith will produce works. (Faith without works is dead.)

That said, nothing we can do 'justifies' us.

That's why Christ had to come. As far as that goes we agree with Protestants more than they know.

The difference comes when we state that a person can turn away from God and reject his salvation - a single prayer ten years ago isn't enough, by itself, to save us. I think they take verses like "For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and interpret that as a one-time event, when the true thrust of the verse is more on the fact that anyone can be saved (imho, open to correction). If we then go out and spit on the Holy Spirit, we can still be damned. We believe that God judges the extent to which a man continues to call on Him and repent, rather than "Once saved, always saved"(OSAS).

So we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling - that's a verse that sometimes gets avoided by those who believe in OSAS. The saving act has already been done. We can accept and move towards it, or reject and move away from it.

Simple enough?

[icxn]

This might help:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/stmacarios_works.aspx

As to the question "What specific works have you done that you believe contribute to your justification?" you can say obedience to all the commandments of the Lord, most notably love for God and neighbor - though I haven't reached this measure yet, it is a lifelong process.

Some without fulfilling the commandments think that they possess true faith. Others fulfil the commandments and then expect the Kingdom as a reward due to them. Both are mistaken. - St. Mark the Ascetic

[eoe]

TIDBIT-
Tell your Calvinist friend to have a read through the following:

Philokalia Vol.1 page 175, St Hesychios the Priest, On Watchfullness and Holiness:
Wishing to show that to fulfill every commandment is a duty, whereas sonship is a gift given to men through his own blood, the Lord said, 'When you have done all that is commanded you, say: "We are useless servants: we have only done what was our duty."' (Luke 17:10). Thus the kingdom is not a reward for works, but a gift og grace prepared by the Master for His faithful servants. A slave does not demand his freedom as a reward: but he gives thanks as one who is in debt, and he receives freedom as a gift.

Also

Philokalia Vol.1 page 125, St. Mark the Ascetic begins: On those who Think that They are Made Righteous by Works: Two Hundred and Twenty-Six Texts

and then tell him that pride and resentment are not becoming qualities in any Christian, Calvinist or Orthodox.

[RobNJ]

Also, read one of the Morning Prayers, from The Jordanville Prayerbook (Jordanville is the location of the monastery, where it's published)


Prayer to our Lord Jesus Christ

My most merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and take flesh to save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee, for if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty. Indeed, in Thy infinite compassion and unspeakable mercy, Thou O my Christ hast said: Whoever believes in Me shall live and never see death. If faith in Thee saves the desperate, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Impute my faith instead of deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds which could justify me, but may my faith suffice for all my deeds. May it answer for and acquit me, and may it make me a partaker of Thy eternal glory. And may satan not seize me, O Word, and boast that he has torn me from Thy hand and fold. O Christ, my Saviour, whether I will or not, save me. Make haste, quick, quick, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother's womb. Grant me, O Lord, to love Thee now as once I loved sin, and also to work for Thee without idleness, as I worked before for deceptive satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.


You can find it online here:
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm

[OnTheWay]

What I would do is quote St. James, and say that while there is no minimum level of works required a true faith will produce good works. If someone says they believe, but their life doesn't show it St. James tells us their faith is dead.

[OnTheWay]

Though it should be noted that with Calvinists this is a wierd grey area. Basically they understand that only the "elect" (people pre-destined to salvation) will be saved. Thus everyone else is pre-destined to be damned, so you might just point out that according to Calvin if you were elected you were elected, and if not they you're damned no matter what. As such neither faith nor works are important because as beings pre-destined to our roles we would bear no individual responsibility for anything.

[lionroar0]

I wanted to follow up our discussion about whether justification is by faith alone or also involves our works. Since you suggested that justification is not by faith alone, let me ask this. What specific works have you done that you believe contribute to your justification? The answer will clarify my understanding of what you are saying. Thanks

My answer would be this.

Firts we have a different definition of "works." Which your question does not take into account. Let me ask you this does being justified by faith alone mean that we must do nothing?

Peace

[buzuxi02]

Lionroar makes a good point.

As an Orthodox christian from the cradle, im not too familiar about this controversy pitting protestant with roman catholic.
Everything ive heard from the two sides seems to be semantics. They say the same thing but argue over it for the sake of having one extra point to be divided over.
If one says they are justified by faith alone and works follow, and the other side say we are justifified by faith and works, the actual outcome when put into practise is the same!!! This is verified by conduct. There is no noteable difference by secular observation between how a pius roman catholic or protestant conducts themselves in matters of charity. A protestant and Roman catholic can see a noble christian cause in volunteering in a soup kitchen etc. No one will tell the difference at how they reached the conclusion to volunteer at the kitchen. (especially since its the same!) Its seem to me to be semantics.

On the other hand according to scripture Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead according to their WORKS. (Matt 16.27, Rom 2.5-6, 1Cor 3.13-15).
Is their a major difference on how someone interprets the above verses? Or is that a matter of semantics as well?
Jesus Christ at his second coming knows exactly what he means and you wont argue over semantics with Him at the judgement seat.

What truly saves us is a Merciful God, and instead of worrying about such a controversy lets do what will lead us to our deification instead.

[tidbit]

Thanks, everyone, for your input.