As a Lutheran, do you...

[MORTANIUS]

..ever doubt what it is that we believe through our Confessions? Or, what makes you so sure we stand firm through our Confessions as compared to the Roman Catholic Church?

I hope this opens up some healthy thoughts of inspiration amongst us. :preach:

[Protoevangel]

Considering the Reformers isolation from the East, they did the absolute best they could possiby have done, in correcting the recent innovations of Rome, and returning to the basics of Scripture and the witness of the Church catholic. Unfortunately, by the time dialouge broke out between the Lutherans at Tübingen and the Ecuminical Patriarch Jeremias II, Lutheran doctrine which departed from the historic practice of the Church catholic due to Roman influence (i.e. filioque), and also due to polemics against Rome (i.e. Tradition, Saints, etc.) was so ingrained, that Andreae, Crusius et. al. were unable to continue a profitable ecumenical dialogue with the Christians of the East, whom the Lutherans regarded so highly ("... The Greeks, whom even Rome itself dare not call heretics or schismatics... I now say that on this point the Greeks and Bohemians are not heretics and schismatics but the most Christian people and the best followers of the Gospel on earth. " - LW 32:58-59).

[LilLamb219]

I used to have a LOT of doubts concerning Lutheran theology...that is, until I actually sat down and studied the Bible and the Confessions. Whenever I had questions, I searched out the answers and so far, instead of more doubt, I am more certain that the Lutherans believe closest to what the Bible teaches.

[Daniels]

Confession leads to conviction.
Confess [your] trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

[Protoevangel]

Confession leads to conviction.
Confess [your] trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
So, my friend Daniels,

Can you please explain how you quoting a single verse answers or is pertinent in any way regarding the OP or any conversation following the OP?

Are you trying to contribute, or are you simply posting random verses?

[pmcleanj]

Confession leads to conviction.
Confess [your] trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
"Confessions" is one of those English words that can so often lead to confusion!

When Lutherans refer to "Our Confessions" they do not mean, confessing their sins.
"The Lutheran Confessions" refer to the writings contained in the Book of Concord (http://www.bookofconcord.org) The word "confession" is used in the context of "Confessing the faith of Christ".


This (http://www.orlutheran.com/html/boc.html) Lutheran Church explains it as follows: What are the Lutheran Confessions?

They are 10 special statements of faith that Lutherans have adopted as official confessions of what they believe. Far more than historical documents, they are still viewed today as a definitive statement of what it means to be Christian and Lutheran. Lutherans view the Lutheran Confessions to be a standard by which all teaching and practice in their churches must be judged.

[C.F.W. Walther]

..ever doubt what it is that we believe through our Confessions? Or, what makes you so sure we stand firm through our Confessions as compared to the Roman Catholic Church?

I hope this opens up some healthy thoughts of inspiration amongst us. :preach:

I don't know if this is on subject or not (I'm pulling a BigNorsk phenomena) but since our confessions dated somewhat freely from reformation times and are supposedly intertwined somewhat with the RC then how do we know that these are the confessions that we should really confess?

I would think that the Church that existed before Constantine and it's writings would be more appropriate to base our confessions on than Luther's theology that was so influenced by the RCs. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Lutheran confessions are the only total truth available to us now (as far as we know).

I know little is know of the Church from apostolic times till Constantine in what? 370AD. As insidious as RCs influence was I would think that even the events reported by the RC at the Council of Nicea would be suspect so, that being said, I would not put too much credence on anything that came out after that era as being objective or even trustworthy. There has been to many "rumors" that all historical writings and incidences have been modified to reflect the RC position.

Sorry but these are probably no more that just musings and hypothetical thoughts and maybe not totally on subject.

[Protoevangel]

I don't know if this is on subject or not (I'm pulling a BigNorsk phenomena) but since our confessions dated somewhat freely from reformation times and are supposedly intertwined somewhat with the RC then how do we know that these are the confessions that we should really confess?

I would think that the Church that existed before Constantine and it's writings would be more appropriate to base our confessions on than Luther's theology that was so influenced by the RCs. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Lutheran confessions are the only total truth available to us now (as far as we know).

I know little is know of the Church from apostolic times till Constantine in what? 370AD. As insidious as RCs influence was I would think that even the events reported by the RC at the Council of Nicea would be suspect so, that being said, I would not put too much credence on anything that came out after that era as being objective or even trustworthy. There has been to many "rumors" that all historical writings and incidences have been modified to reflect the RC position.

Sorry but these are probably no more that just musings and hypothetical thoughts and maybe not totally on subject.
Well, I can certainly see Jack Chick shining through! A bit os post-modernism as well.

The confessions are "total truth", but maybe not true? :confused:

If you want to see pre-Constantine Christianity,yoy will need to look a little farther east than Rome, my friend. It is on the testimony of those early fathers that the eastern Church is built. They seperated from Rome, because of Rome's innovations and apostacy.

[LilLamb219]

I don't know if this is on subject or not (I'm pulling a BigNorsk phenomena) but since our confessions dated somewhat freely from reformation times and are supposedly intertwined somewhat with the RC then how do we know that these are the confessions that we should really confess?

Is there anything specifically within the Confessions that you "doubt"?

[C.F.W. Walther]

Is there anything specifically within the Confessions that you "doubt"?
Nope----but we all know that there was a "church" before Constantine and many of the writings and teachings were hiden because of persecution from 90AD to 370AD and I just wonder if we received all of these wrtings/teachings fully and truthfully from when Constatine absorbed the Christians hiding in the catacombs. Why would they not try and protect what writings they had? It wasn't just Constatine but others prior to him that persecuted/killed/crucufied Christians and I can't believe that they (the CHristians) were naive enough to not hold back and even hide some of their material. Has this material surfaced over the centuries other than the ones we know of?

I also find questionable some of the early church fathers that were present before 370AD becuse of the persecution. They seem to talk with so much freedom that doesn't seem appropiate for the time.

Just musing.........nothing factual.

No I havn't been reading Chick Dan............geeezzzz.

[LilLamb219]

Radidio, is there anything in the Confessions that contradict what scripture says?

[Protoevangel]

No I havn't been reading Chick Dan............geeezzzz.
:P ^_^

[C.F.W. Walther]

Radidio, is there anything in the Confessions that contradict what scripture says?

No not at all------I guess I should never have answered in this mode. I was just brainstorming and probably should quit and let y'all return to the regularly scheduled program and what Moranius' original intent was. Like BigNorsk says we some times like to change things around to our own agenda.

[LilLamb219]

Well, one thing I know is that God hasn't left us hanging. If there is anything that the Confessions do not address that is missing and recovered later on (in the way of scripture), then the Law would still be the Law and the Gospel will still be the Gospel and salvation will still be God's doing 100% without help from us.

I don't see any changes being in conflict with what we already know and confess.

[Edial]

..ever doubt what it is that we believe through our Confessions? Or, what makes you so sure we stand firm through our Confessions as compared to the Roman Catholic Church?

I hope this opens up some healthy thoughts of inspiration amongst us. :preach:
The Confessions are a proclamation of certain doctrines that we profess.

Confessions are accurate in their interpretation, but they are not absolutely true, as in the context of the absolute truth.
That claim is made by the Bible.

Can one stand firm through belief in our Confessions?
From a religious perspective - yes.

From spiritual perspective - I think it is impossible, since the Confessions give a knowledge that is intellectual.

We are pleased that we understand it, since it is clearly defined.

They are very useful in defining things and have their practical role in a life of a Lutheran.

Yet in my opinion, they have a down side to them.

These are the answers in the "back of the book" to the somehow complex doctrines.

To some, they even present as an alternative to the Scriptures, since they somehow play a role of a "calculator" that replaced manual application of "algebra".

That replaced the need for "calculating" complex "formulas" by hand.

And manual hermeneutics are what we are taught by Jesus Christ who encouraged to apply them.

LK 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Our Confessions define parameters within which Lutheranism lays.
Yet our Confessions do not define all the parameters, but the ones primarily concerning the RC.

Some state that these removed the imperfections that were added by the RC to the Confessions of the pre-RC church.

But the pre-RC Confessions are also not necessarily cover the Bible, but certain essentials from the Bible.

Some say that these are the essentials that they need.
But we were given the Bible.
And that leads back to where we started.

These are just some reflections.

Thanks,
Ed

[C.F.W. Walther]

How etherial----but happy birthday anyway. :)

[Edial]

How etherial----but happy birthday anyway. :):D
I finally am hitting 47.

I probably am one of these guys that is looking forwards to geting up there.
46 just wasn't it, it kind of resembled 45.

But 47, there is something about that number, it is like almost 50.

One day I'll reach you.
Then we could both say 60, 60.

:) :)

[C.F.W. Walther]

Same here. It's like a goal or a milestone in my life. When I was younger I didn't think I'd make it past 45 because I lived a hard life. Now I thank God that he has allowed me these extra years

My wife is a cancer survivor and we were at the walk for life this weekend and one of our neighbors that goes to church with us said that he was celebrating and she said that doesn't celebrate it she just survives it and is glad to live to tell about it.

She said she felt odd when they asked all the survivors to make a lap around the track and everyone applauded them the whole circut.

I never talked to her about it but after my heart attack I got something like post traumatic syndrome. Guess you guys couldn't tell that here :sigh:. Anyway I just felt like I didn't belong here anymore on earth. I guess that's what the hymn means when it says "I'm but a stranger here, heaven is my home".

[Edial]

Same here. It's like a goal or a milestone in my life. When I was younger I didn't think I'd make it past 45 because I lived a hard life. Now I thank God that he has allowed me these extra years

My wife is a cancer survivor and we were at the walk for life this weekend and one of our neighbors that goes to church with us said that he was celebrating and she said that doesn't celebrate it she just survives it and is glad to live to tell about it.

She said she felt odd when they asked all the survivors to make a lap around the track and everyone applauded them the whole circut.

I never talked to her about it but after my heart attack I got something like post traumatic syndrome. Guess you guys couldn't tell that here :sigh:. Anyway I just felt like I didn't belong here anymore on earth. I guess that's what the hymn means when it says "I'm but a stranger here, heaven is my home".
Apostle Paul felt that way practically all the time, :) when he was saying that he would rather be up there, but knows how important it is for him to be down here for the sake of others.

This is quite interesting how one is to handle such feelings and thoughts of wanting to go home.

If this group would meet in St.Louis in 2007, I would definitely like to discuss such things with you.
I somehow hope to resurface that thread later on ... Lord willing, that is.:)

Thanks,
Ed

[Kotton]

I'm happy with the Lutheran confessions. I'm not in agreement with the Roman Catholic's additions to the creed. Which after 10 years of study seems to be required to be RC. As far as I can tell below is the aditional Required beliefs to be RC.

"The Forth and Fifth Articles:

And I believe in the Holy, Blessed , Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and my Mother. She was conceived without sin and lived a perfect and immaculate life so that She, with my Lord Jesus, did earn for me salvation. She was assumed, still a Vrgin, into Heaven where She lives and reigns, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, with the Holy Trinity now and forever. There She daily hears my prayers and advocates and mediates with God for me. Through Her only does the Holy Trinity dispense all graces , mercies and blessing to the Earth. Through Her will God finally return peace and His Kingdom to the whole Earth.

And I believe in the Pope, the Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Rome, who though not sinless, with the Catholic Church and the Magisterium is held infallible, by the power of the Holy Spirit for the edification of the whole people of God. "

As far as I can tell the above is required belief, not optional to be RC. Perhaps someone with more knowledge and experience can Point out where I have gone astray from the RC requirements in the Articles above. Additions, deletions and corrections are solicited.

Mrs. Cotton

[BigNorsk]

The only thing I can see is I don't think you have to believe Mary led an immaculate life, only that she was immaculately conceived, but the trend does seem to be towards that end.

Marv

[Protoevangel]

"The Forth and Fifth Articles:

And I believe in the Holy, Blessed , Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and my Mother. She was conceived without sin and lived a perfect and immaculate life so that She, with my Lord Jesus, did earn for me salvation. She was assumed, still a Vrgin, into Heaven where She lives and reigns, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, with the Holy Trinity now and forever. There She daily hears my prayers and advocates and mediates with God for me. Through Her only does the Holy Trinity dispense all graces , mercies and blessing to the Earth. Through Her will God finally return peace and His Kingdom to the whole Earth.

And I believe in the Pope, the Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Rome, who though not sinless, with the Catholic Church and the Magisterium is held infallible, by the power of the Holy Spirit for the edification of the whole people of God. "
I have never seen these laid out like this. Can you tell me where you got these? A Catechism paragraph number, or a book, or a link would be great. Thanks.

[Kotton]

I have never seen these laid out like this. Can you tell me where you got these? A Catechism paragraph number, or a book, or a link would be great. Thanks.

This is my interpretation of the belief. It is not in the Catholic Catecism in this form. In the Catechism one sees "assumption into heaven 966, 974, Immaculate conception 491-92, Mother of Grace, 968-70 As mediator 970, In restoration of supernatural life to soles 968. Intercessor before God 969, 975, Mother of the Church 963, Panagia 493, Personification of the church 507, Theotokos 495, Throne of wisdom 721, Sinless during her life, 411, Virginity 496, 507, 510. In Mary the Church is all-holy 829, Place of Mary in the Mystery of the chruch 963-72. Place of Mary inseparable for christ 964. Some parts of this interpretation are gleaned from Catholic Prayer, Fatima, Guadalupe.

Information about the Pope and church hierarchial constituiton are likewise not stated as such, but gleaned from various pages under the notation "Church" especially 771, 887, 879, 882, 937, 891 (charism of infallibility) etc. Some is gleamed from 10 years of talking to my Catholic husband. As I previously said, I'm open to additions, deletions, corrections.

[Protoevangel]

This is my interpretation of the belief. It is not in the Catholic Catecism in this form. In the Catechism one sees "assumption into heaven 966, 974, Immaculate conception 491-92, Mother of Grace, 968-70 As mediator 970, In restoration of supernatural life to soles 968. Intercessor before God 969, 975, Mother of the Church 963, Panagia 493, Personification of the church 507, Theotokos 495, Throne of wisdom 721, Sinless during her life, 411, Virginity 496, 507, 510. In Mary the Church is all-holy 829, Place of Mary in the Mystery of the chruch 963-72. Place of Mary inseparable for christ 964. Some parts of this interpretation are gleaned from Catholic Prayer, Fatima, Guadalupe.

Information about the Pope and church hierarchial constituiton are likewise not stated as such, but gleaned from various pages under the notation "Church" especially 771, 887, 879, 882, 937, 891 (charism of infallibility) etc. Some is gleamed from 10 years of talking to my Catholic husband. As I previously said, I'm open to additions, deletions, corrections.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:

[Edial]

This is my interpretation of the belief. It is not in the Catholic Catecism in this form. In the Catechism one sees "assumption into heaven 966, 974, Immaculate conception 491-92, Mother of Grace, 968-70 As mediator 970, In restoration of supernatural life to soles 968. Intercessor before God 969, 975, Mother of the Church 963, Panagia 493, Personification of the church 507, Theotokos 495, Throne of wisdom 721, Sinless during her life, 411, Virginity 496, 507, 510. In Mary the Church is all-holy 829, Place of Mary in the Mystery of the chruch 963-72. Place of Mary inseparable for christ 964. Some parts of this interpretation are gleaned from Catholic Prayer, Fatima, Guadalupe.

Information about the Pope and church hierarchial constituiton are likewise not stated as such, but gleaned from various pages under the notation "Church" especially 771, 887, 879, 882, 937, 891 (charism of infallibility) etc. Some is gleamed from 10 years of talking to my Catholic husband. As I previously said, I'm open to additions, deletions, corrections.
This is pretty good.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[BigNorsk]

THIS (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm) seems to the the Catholic Catechism that is being referenced.

#411 definitely does say Mary never sinned.
411 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:openWindow%28%27cr/411.htm%27%29;) The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve". Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

I had not seen that teaching in an official Catholic publication before, I thank you for pointing it out. Your paragraph does seem to be right on correct with official Catholic teaching.

Marv

[Kotton]

THIS (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm) seems to the the Catholic Catechism that is being referenced.

#411 definitely does say Mary never sinned.

I had not seen that teaching in an official Catholic publication before, I thank you for pointing it out. Your paragraph does seem to be right on correct with official Catholic teaching.

Marv



Thanks for checking it out. I suppose a Catholic theolgian might be able to shoot holes in my 3 and 4th articles, but it may be unlikely that one will see them here in the Lutheran Threads.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Thanks for checking it out. I suppose a Catholic theolgian might be able to shoot holes in my 3 and 4th articles, but it may be unlikely that one will see them here in the Lutheran Threads.

Someone allready did.

[Kotton]

Someone allready did.
I missed it! Where? I'd like to be enlightened. :scratch: Thanks for you help.

[C.F.W. Walther]

I missed it! Where? I'd like to be enlightened. :scratch: Thanks for you help. OOPS---didn't see that 3rd article wasn't posted here yet. My misstake.

[MORTANIUS]

The only thing I can see is I don't think you have to believe Mary led an immaculate life, only that she was immaculately conceived, but the trend does seem to be towards that end.

Marv

The Holy Bible tells us that Mary was was a very good woman who was most blessed from amongst all other women. It was not simply a matter of random chance that God selected her. In Luke 1:28 we read,

"And having come in, the angel said to her, 'Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women."

The Greek term (Gr. Charitoo) for the underlined above in the passage of Luke 1:28 is often understood to refer to 'full of grace'. This indicates the Lords mother as living an immaculate life. However, the teachings that she was also born without sin and so forth is not to be confused with the usage of the term immaculate when speaking of Mary.

Lutherans do not regard this above example as an excuse to venerate the mother of our Lord as does the RCC. Even Luke 1:48 does not justify the RCC's teachings and veneration of Mary in their Liturgies whereby they exalt her almost to the point of being above Christ!

Lutherans recognize that Mary fullfills the prophecy of Isaiah, and that indeed she is to be regarded and called Blessed - but all fictions surrounding her are not substantiated through any Lutheran Confessions! At least as far as I am aware to this day.

[Edial]

The Holy Bible tells us that Mary was was a very good woman who was most blessed from amongst all other women. It was not simply a matter of random chance that God selected her. In Luke 1:28 we read,

"And having come in, the angel said to her, 'Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women."

The Greek term (Gr. Charitoo) for the underlined above in the passage of Luke 1:28 is often understood to refer to 'full of grace'. This indicates the Lords mother as living an immaculate life. However, the teachings that she was also born without sin and so forth is not to be confused with the usage of the term immaculate when speaking of Mary.

Lutherans do not regard this above example as an excuse to venerate the mother of our Lord as does the RCC. Even Luke 1:48 does not justify the RCC's teachings and veneration of Mary in their Liturgies whereby they exalt her almost to the point of being above Christ!

Lutherans recognize that Mary fullfills the prophecy of Isaiah, and that indeed she is to be regarded and called Blessed - but all fictions surrounding her are not substantiated through any Lutheran Confessions! At least as far as I am aware to this day.
The only cross-reference to Charitoo that I see in the NT is here -
EPH 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he n predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

That (underlined) is addressed to us.
It has a meaning of "grace freely given".

Yet we do sin.

So one could not say that Mary was sinless after the birth of Christ, since we are not either.

I am also reminded of other instances in the NT that might indicate that she was not much different in the context of having grace than us due to her "normal" behavior that did not indocate any degree of sinlessness.

And sinlessness of anyone outside of Christ makes no Scriptural sense, since all sin, since all are born outside of Holy Spirit, except Christ.

... unless of course I misunderstood your post. :)

Thanks,
Ed

[MORTANIUS]

The only cross-reference to Charitoo that I see in the NT is here -
EPH 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he n predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

That (underlined) is addressed to us.
It has a meaning of "grace freely given".

Yet we do sin.

So one could not say that Mary was sinless after the birth of Christ, since we are not either.

I am also reminded of other instances in the NT that might indicate that she was not much different in the context of having grace than us due to her "normal" behavior that did not indocate any degree of sinlessness.

And sinlessness of anyone outside of Christ makes no Scriptural sense, since all sin, since all are born outside of Holy Spirit, except Christ.

... unless of course I misunderstood your post. :)

Thanks,
Ed

:doh: OK, I should mention that I was examining (comparitively) Greek to English translations. lol