An odd sort of question...

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

This might be a silly question, but I have to ask it in order to settle a disagreement between a friend and I:

He is under the impression that some Orthodox venerate some of the Greek philosophers (Socrates, Plato) as holy men of God. I do not believe that this would be considered acceptable, though my friend insists that the local Greek church does indeed have an icon of Socrates. (And no, it isn't a case of mistaking Paul or another Saint for him, lol.)

Could you please settle this disagreement either way?

Thanks. :angel:

[gzt]

Some regard them as sort of "Christians before Christ" and icons of them could be placed in the narthex [ie, outside the place where the Christians are] without a halo. They do so on the authority of, like, St. Justin Martyr, who taught that the pagan philosophers has seeds of the Word implanted in them, and insofar as they sought after truth, they really had some knowledge of God. Socrates is the prime example of this. I believe St. Augustine taught something similar in has great work, "The City of God".

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

Some regard them as sort of "Christians before Christ" and icons of them could be placed in the narthex [ie, outside the place where the Christians are] without a halo. They do so on the authority of, like, St. Justin Martyr, who taught that the pagan philosophers has seeds of the Word implanted in them, and insofar as they sought after truth, they really had some knowledge of God. Socrates is the prime example of this. I believe St. Augustine taught something similar in has great work, "The City of God".

That is interesting. Sort of similar to the way that the Prophets are considered "Christians before Christ" (though they were, of course, members of the House of Israel)?

[rusmeister]

I agree That IS an odd question. :P

To give a more thoughtful, detailed and serious answer, I'd have to say, "I dunno!" I've never heard of anything of the sort.

[choirfiend]

Your friend is right. They weren't Hebrews and didn't know God, but there are church fathers who discuss them as headed in the right direction when it came to their philosophies pursuing God. They're not saints, but they very well may have an icon placed (when properly done) like gzt said.

[Prawnik]

Hieromonk Damascene (and by extension Seraphim Rose) included other philosophers, such as Lao Tsu in the "Christians [without] Christ" category.

Some early Christians also included the Roman philosopher Seneca in that number, and he lived his adult life after Christ's birth.

[eoe]

Ask him where the Icons is. I bet it is in the Narthex. (read: out of the church)

(gzt beat me to it...)

[ClementofRome]

Thomas Aquinas argued that Aristotle was truly headed in the right direction when he argues that a discussion of being as being ultimately leads one to contemplate the depths of theology.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I recently heard the story of a bishop or priest who forbade the people in his parish to read the works of Plato (I think, it might have been Aristotle). He then had a dream in which the philosopher came to him and asked, "Why do you forbid the people to read my work? When Christ preached to us in hades, I was one of the first to believe Him."

[ClementofRome]

I recently heard the story of a bishop or priest who forbade the people in his parish to read the works of Plato (I think, it might have been Aristotle). He then had a dream in which the philosopher came to him and asked, "Why do you forbid the people to read my work? When Christ preached to us in hades, I was one of the first to believe Him."

That completely blows me away. Can you remember who this priest was? It would help my inquiry into Orthodoxy greatly.

Thank you for sharing that.
Clement

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

That completely blows me away. Can you remember who this priest was? It would help my inquiry into Orthodoxy greatly.

Thank you for sharing that.
Clement

I don't even remember where I heard it much less if it's based on something that really happened; I just thought it sounded really interesting. I have a friend who might know something about it so I'll ask him.

[Vasileios]

I've shared the same story here. It was Plato indeed. Thats exactly the story I've been told. My mother knows the name of the priest/bishop or saint.I'll have to remember to ask.

And as the others have already said, there are indeed icons of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato and Heraclitus in greek churches (temples), in the narthex, outside of the church (where the DL is held) and they are always without halos. I am sure there is one Thesaloniki and I am trying to remember if my impression is correct that you can see them in Mt. Athos too.

I'll keep in my mind to look out for some pictures. Mustn't be that difficult.

[Michael the Iconographer]

If you read the ancient Greeks they were in search of the LOGOS, the very same LOGOS who was declared incarnate in John Chapter 1. The ancient Greeks are not saints, but they were clearly searching for Christ.

[ClementofRome]

If you read the ancient Greeks they were in search of the LOGOS, the very same LOGOS who was declared incarnate in John Chapter 1. The ancient Greeks are not saints, but they were clearly searching for Christ.

Michael,
I in no way want to debate, but this seems like assumption rather than something based on fact. The "logos" in Greek philosophical thought was "reason," "intellect," "rationale"....or some such concept. Just because John uses logos = Christ in his gospel, how can we possibly make the stretch that just because the philosophers were searching for the "logos" they were searching for "Christ"? Now don't get me wrong....they were definately searching for truth!

John was reaching out to both Jew and Gentile in his prologue to his gospel....but he shatters both the Jewish assumption and the Greek assumption of what "logos" means.

Blessings,
Clement

[Michael the Iconographer]

Michael,
I in no way want to debate, but this seems like assumption rather than something based on fact. The "logos" in Greek philosophical thought was "reason," "intellect," "rationale"....or some such concept. Just because John uses logos = Christ in his gospel, how can we possibly make the stretch that just because the philosophers were searching for the "logos" they were searching for "Christ"? Now don't get me wrong....they were definately searching for truth!

John was reaching out to both Jew and Gentile in his prologue to his gospel....but he shatters both the Jewish assumption and the Greek assumption of what "logos" means.

Blessings,
Clement

No, this was based on my study of the Greek Philosophers and Justin Martyr in Seminary as well as the Gospel of John. The ancient Greeks were searcing for the logos, the reason for existence, the beginning of existence, the very matrix of existence. They were searching for God/Christ. They might not have known the Christian God, but they were definitely searching for him.

[Shubunkin]

John 3:21 "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. "

[ClementofRome]

No, this was based on my study of the Greek Philosophers and Justin Martyr in Seminary as well as the Gospel of John. The ancient Greeks were searcing for the logos, the reason for existence, the beginning of existence, the very matrix of existence. They were searching for God/Christ. They might not have known the Christian God, but they were definitely searching for him.

OK....we are on the same page. I agree that the Greek philosophers were doing just as you say, and if we come full circle, we can say that the logos for which they were searching was Christ, but do you understand my reserve in making the complete leap from one to another?

;)

[buzuxi02]

For St. John the Evangelist, the greek concept of the Logos is Christ. Logos being that 'principle" which upholds the universe.
Jesus said "search the scripture for they speak of me" (paraphrase Jn 5.39). This means all the scripture not just the hebrew OT. Scripture after all is latin from scribe which is generic for "writing"
The Orthodox Church of Finland see prophecies of Christ in the Kalevala, Many (like Fr. Seraphim Rose) saw them in the Tao Te Ching, many greeks see them in the philosophers and myths such as Prometheus.
St Paul saw the pagan greeks worship the true God at the temple of the unknown God (acts 17.23). Heck he even calls a greek philosopher a prophet in (1TItus 1.12-13).

[Theophorus]

For St. John the Evangelist, the greek concept of the Logos is Christ. Logos being that 'principle" which upholds the universe.
Jesus said "search the scripture for they speak of me" (paraphrase Jn 5.39). This means all the scripture not just the hebrew OT. Scripture after all is latin from scribe which is generic for "writing"
The Orthodox Church of Finland see prophecies of Christ in the Kalevala, Many (like Fr. Seraphim Rose) saw them in the Tao Te Ching, many greeks see them in the philosophers and myths such as Prometheus.
St Paul saw the pagan greeks worship the true God at the temple of the unknown God (acts 17.23). Heck he even calls a greek philosopher a prophet in (1TItus 1.12-13).

The magi also come to mind, as well as Cyrus the Persian, and Romans 2.

[buzuxi02]

The magi also come to mind, as well as Cyrus the Persian, and Romans 2.




Excellent! I completely forgot about the magi, and Cyrus never crossed my mind.
Many of the early church fathers saw foreign prophecies as a confirmation of the Gospel of Jesus (or at times as a deception to the true gospel).

But while the church holds the philosophers that confirm the gospel in high esteem she does not venerate them.