Liturgical Iconography

[paleodoxy]

Are E.O. worshipers required to venerate icons as an integral and necessary part of the liturgy of the Church?

The Seventh Ecumenical Council would seem to dictate this.

[kamikat]

While it is not requred for you to venerate icons when you go to church, it is required that you not condem others who do and to recognize that it is an acceptable practice.

kamikat

[paleodoxy]

And is this one way in which the Church seeks to distinguish between Divine worship and human veneration?

[kamikat]

I'm not sure I understand your follow up question. What do you mean? Have you attended Orthodox worship services? The worship services are fluid, people aren't really required to do anything. You will see some people crossing themselves and some people not crossing. You will see some people lighting candles and some people not. You will see some people bowing and some people not bowing. The key is to worship are you feel moved to, not because it's required.
kamikat

[Oblio]

Are E.O. worshipers required to venerate icons as an integral and necessary part of the liturgy of the Church?


No

[paleodoxy]

I'm not sure I understand your follow up question. What do you mean? Have you attended Orthodox worship services? The worship services are fluid, people aren't really required to do anything. You will see some people crossing themselves and some people not crossing. You will see some people lighting candles and some people not. You will see some people bowing and some people not bowing. The key is to worship are you feel moved to, not because it's required.
kamikat

Okay, that's a helpful description. Thanks.

Now, your services do use standard liturgies though, right? Where the whole congregation will participate in moving through various liturgical steps and stages as a whole, correct? IOW, while there is liberty regarding candle lighting, bowing, veneration, etc...there is still an overall liturgical structure that is carried out.

[eoe]

Now, your services do use standard liturgies though, right? Where the whole congregation will participate in moving through various liturgical steps and stages as a whole, correct?
Yes - the service that we use is HERE (http://goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp). You can read the whole thing if you like.

IOW, while there is liberty regarding candle lighting, bowing, veneration, etc...there is still an overall liturgical structure that is carried out.

Every parish will do things a little differently. I frequent 2 parishes. My home parish is Greek. It is a very conservative church. We have pews and people stay put for the large part. There is little if any bodily worship other than crossing oneself.
The OCA parish that I visit is totally the opposite. Some people actually go barefoot. There are no pews. The people there are very physical. They move about duiring the service venerating icons, kissing one another, bowing, lighting candles at the shrines.
There is a big variation.

Now.. .what you have to understand is that no one is "required" to do much of anything at all except be respectful and not create a distraction. If you want to stand in the back and not move - that is fine. At my parish, walking about would be a distraction. Downtown is it perfectly fine.

Still - with all the variation, the faith is identical between the two. The practice may vary but the faith is identical.

[kamikat]

eoe explained it very nicely. There is a liturgy that is the same routine every week, with variations from week to week in some hymns and the readings, but generally the same thing every Sunday. Your faith icon indicated that you are Anglican/Episcopalian, right? I've only been to a couple Episcopal litugries, but I think they are kind of similar. Yes, everyone follows along with the liturgy, but again, some people sing along, some people do not. In some churches, only the choir sings, in other churches, the whole congregation sings. It is always acceptable to stay in the back and just observe.
kamikat

[choirfiend]

Especially because worship/= active participation in a visual or aural way.

"Just observing" can in fact be highly participatory. Worship is in the heart, after all.

[Michael the Iconographer]

It is very difficult to be Orthodox and not venerate Iconography, if not down right impossible.

[Eusebios]

While I agree with you Michael, it is still not a liturgical requirement as such. It seems a natural outgrowth of one's love of Christ and the Church, at once militant and triumphant, to offer veneration to the Holy Icons. And yes, the seventh ecumenical council makes it clear that it is expected orthopraxis, more pointedly it forbids the exclusion of such acts of veneration from the personal and corporate lives of Christians.
Did that make sense?
Ah, for what its worth!
Eusebios
:bow:

[Michael the Iconographer]

While I agree with you Michael, it is still not a liturgical requirement as such. It seems a natural outgrowth of one's love of Christ and the Church, at once militant and triumphant, to offer veneration to the Holy Icons. And yes, the seventh ecumenical council makes it clear that it is expected orthopraxis, more pointedly it forbids the exclusion of such acts of veneration from the personal and corporate lives of Christians.
Did that make sense?
Ah, for what its worth!
Eusebios
:bow:

You make sense. It is not a requirement, but Orthodox Christianity and the Liturgy make alot more sense viewed in light of iconography. Iconography teaches things that words alone can not even attempt to explain. And you are right, veneration of Icons is merely an extension of one's love for Christ, the Church and creation.

[kamikat]

You make sense. It is not a requirement, but Orthodox Christianity and the Liturgy make alot more sense viewed in light of iconography. Iconography teaches things that words alone can not even attempt to explain. And you are right, veneration of Icons is merely an extension of one's love for Christ, the Church and creation.

I think the key is understanding. We shouldn't tell inquirers that they HAVE to do it. Many inquirers come from an iconoclastic background. From people I've talked to, learning to venerate icons is part of the process of conversion. Having grown up in a home where people venerated statues of saints, it wasn't a big leap for me to grasp the concept of venerating icons. For someone who is used to worshiping in an empty hall without so much as a cross on the wall, it may be a BIG hurdle. The physical act of kissing an icon is not requred to attend Divine Liturgy. In my church, we have some elderly parishoners that walk in and take their seats because they can't make the walk up to the front to venerate the icons. No one is telling them to go home. People who have never attended a DL read about all the stuff that happens in DL and become intimidated and may not attend because they think people will look at them funny if they don't do it, too. Inquirers don't HAVE to venerate icons. We don't venerate icons because it's required. We venerate icons because we love the saint and God.

kamikat

[MORTANIUS]

I personally find value in reading about the lives of the Saints, but I cannot bring myself to venerate them, although I can respect them - and respect does not seem to mean the same thing as venerate in Orthodoxy.

I know of the arguments between the Iconoclasts and they were actuallly more concerned with being in agreement with Islam about idols since the Christian world was at that time, on the brink of Islamic domination.

I don't agree with Iconoclasts and yet I don't fully agree with venerating Icons - but then again you Orthodox are not exactly venerating the Saints the way the Roman Catholics do, but I do see strong similarities that have me wondering.

I'm not sure where the difference rests? Can anyone explain the differences between Roman Catholic and Orthodox veneration of Saints?:help:

[Andrea Elizabeth]

I don't know that much about Catholicism's treatment of the Saints, so maybe someone else can help you there.

About veneration, like kamikat said, it's about love. I think it was St. Paul who said for us to greet each other with a heavenly kiss. That is what we are doing when we venerate icons. We are also supposed to do that with the other people in the congregation too, but here in America people are more stand-offish - dont know about Canada.

Veneration also carries with it the idea of respect for the Saint's walk with God. It is His glory we see reflected in the Saint. We have to keep this in perspective - we don't respect the Saint's "works", we recognize the need to be in fellowhip with God as they are, and we ask their help in learning to walk with God as they did on this earth.

[Oblio]

We venerate our loved ones everytime we place a picture on a wall or shelf or visit their grave and place flowers or a note. These things are nothing more than Western 'icons' through which we approach those who we love.

[eoe]

We shouldn't tell inquirers that they HAVE to do it.
The only thing that an inquirer has to do is to avoid being an interruption. That is it. So long as they do not cause problems in the service I do not think there is ANYTHING else that we can expect of them.

[kamikat]

I'm not sure where the difference rests? Can anyone explain the differences between Roman Catholic and Orthodox veneration of Saints?:help:

I'm not sure what you mean. Having been raised in a Catholic family, with priests and nuns in my extended family, I think I'm pretty familar with Catholic practices. What exactly do you think Catholics do that the Orthodox do not? There are a few things that are out of the ordinary, such as parading satutes of Mary through town, but these things generally happen in Third World countries that are barely Christian. There may be a local parish priest involved, but no official Vatican endorsement.

kamikat

[kamikat]

The only thing that an inquirer has to do is to avoid being an interruption. That is it. So long as they do not cause problems in the service I do not think there is ANYTHING else that we can expect of them.

Why couldn't you have been with me the one time I brought my mom to church to tell her that:D She talked through the whole service.

[Shubunkin]

It was about 15 years ago that I began reading about Church history, and there were so many martyred saints and their stories told that I was amazed these people had been so easily forgotten. I tried to write their names down because I wanted to learn about them, and remember them. There were so many that it was quite difficult! I had to be amazed at their stories, and their bravery, and I was truly into getting to know them. They should not be forgotten, and venerated often.

It was about 20 years ago that I expressed a desire to visit the local Greek Orthodox Church since we were looking for a new one, and my husband said flat out, "no" to this idea. I should have probably been a little more insistent, but wanted a church we both could appreciate at the time.

This just proves to me that what I was seeking all of this time was Orthodoxy, and just didn't know it. :amen:

[Theophorus]

.....And you are right, veneration of Icons is merely an extension of one's love for Christ, the Church and creation.

Yes this is true. I also believe that icons, the Saints, and veneration all play a role in "teaching" what the nature of the Church is (the Church being composed of Christ and the Saints, in unity) , the nature of the incarnation, and theosis. In this way they truly are windows to heaven. Plus it helps to teach the virtue of humility, if not by anything else, at least a physical and mental acknowledgement of something bigger than ourselves.

It kind of all comes together in the praxis and theology surrounding icons.

[MORTANIUS]

I'm not sure what you mean. Having been raised in a Catholic family, with priests and nuns in my extended family, I think I'm pretty familar with Catholic practices. What exactly do you think Catholics do that the Orthodox do not? There are a few things that are out of the ordinary, such as parading satutes of Mary through town, but these things generally happen in Third World countries that are barely Christian. There may be a local parish priest involved, but no official Vatican endorsement.

kamikat

Apparently many thoughtful and informative Orthodox Christians on this forum have told me that they do not pray to the Saints or the Mother of our Lord, but only venerate (or honour).

On the other hand, others have also told me that they may pray to particular Saints for specific needs (hence making Saints Patrons of various needs). I am aware that Roman Catholics do this as well, and I'm confused about the differences of 'veneration' that is applied to Saints between R.C. and E.O. Christians because there is little stressed between the two except what I know and have been told (conditions of sainthood differing between East and Western Churchs, Statuary and Icononic parameters and styles and their regulations of creating them etc.).

I'm still not sure what the absolute differences are although both R.C. and E.O. Christians stress there are differences! :scratch: Some arguments are based on Statuary being accepted by the R.C. Christians as heretical acts based on some Synodical Council, and others stating that R.C. Christians do not ask for intercession but directly pray to specific saints for specific needs.

I would still appreciate some clarity on this matter. Books fall short of any proper explanation and yet they make statements about the either (R.C. vs. E.O.) without justifications. :help:

[kamikat]

Oh, I think I understand. For example, Catholics pray to St Anthony to find lost things
O blessed St. Anthony,
the grace of God has made you a powerful advocate
in all our needs and the patron
for the restoring of things lost or stolen.
I turn to you today with childlike love and deep confidence.
You have helped countless children of God
to find the things they have lost,
material things, and, more importantly,
the things of the spirit: faith, hope, and love.
I come to you with confidence;
help me in my present need.
I recommend what I have lost to your care,
in the hope that God will restore it to me,
if it is His holy Will.

Amen.
Are you asking if this kind of prayer is common practice in Orthodoxy?

[eoe]

Apparently many thoughtful and informative Orthodox Christians on this forum have told me that they do not pray to the Saints or the Mother of our Lord, but only venerate (or honour).
HUH?

We definately have what you would call prayer to saints. Today's kontakion:
O Prophet and foreseer of the great works of God, O greatly renowned Elias
(Elijah), who by your word held back the clouds of rain, intercede for us to
the only Loving One.

On the other hand, others have also told me that they may pray to particular Saints for specific needs (hence making Saints Patrons of various needs). I am aware that Roman Catholics do this as well, and I'm confused about the differences of 'veneration' that is applied to Saints between R.C. and E.O. Christians because there is little stressed between the two except what I know and have been told (conditions of sainthood differing between East and Western Churchs, Statuary and Icononic parameters and styles and their regulations of creating them etc.).

I'm still not sure what the absolute differences are although both R.C. and E.O. Christians stress there are differences! :scratch: Some arguments are based on Statuary being accepted by the R.C. Christians as heretical acts based on some Synodical Council, and others stating that R.C. Christians do not ask for intercession but directly pray to specific saints for specific needs.

I would still appreciate some clarity on this matter. Books fall short of any proper explanation and yet they make statements about the either (R.C. vs. E.O.) without justifications. :help:

Few points:
Try to seperate "Veneration" from "Prayer". They are totally different things. Ever saluted the American flag? You have venerated an Icon and you understand it perfectly. Period. The end.
Prayer is another issue altogether. The prayer to Saints is really us asking saints to intercede to God for us. We ask them to pray for us. That is it.

How to understand prayer to Saints:
1 - there are two issues here. The first is "Can someone else pray for you?"
Answer:
James 5:16
(16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
So that is issue # 1 overcome.
Issue 2 - Can the Saints hear us?
This belief stems from our understanding of the Resurrection of Chirst:
Christ is risen from the dead, by death he has trampled down death and to those in the tombs he bestows life.
The Saints are not dead. They are very much alive in heaven and we know that they pray:
Revelation 8:3-4
(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
(4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

So... We know they are not dead and we know that they are praying.

Here is where Tradition kicks in. We believe they can hear us.

That is the place where we likely would diverge and that is the where you would likely have the most intelligent discussion about it. I hope that you can see what I mean here.

So... how are we different from the RC? In about a million other ways. This just happens to be one of the things that we agree on (except for the statue thing....)

[copticorthodoxy]

All the Apostolic Churches ( Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox , Roman Catholic ) venerate the saints and the icons so that means it is a very old dogma

[MORTANIUS]

Oh, I think I understand. For example, Catholics pray to St Anthony to find lost things

Are you asking if this kind of prayer is common practice in Orthodoxy?

Precisely. I am very curious about such veneration being confused with praying to saints instead of Jesus Christ.

[MORTANIUS]

HUH?

We definately have what you would call prayer to saints. Today's kontakion:
O Prophet and foreseer of the great works of God, O greatly renowned Elias
(Elijah), who by your word held back the clouds of rain, intercede for us to
the only Loving One.



Few points:
Try to seperate "Veneration" from "Prayer". They are totally different things. Ever saluted the American flag? You have venerated an Icon and you understand it perfectly. Period. The end.
Prayer is another issue altogether. The prayer to Saints is really us asking saints to intercede to God for us. We ask them to pray for us. That is it.

How to understand prayer to Saints:
1 - there are two issues here. The first is "Can someone else pray for you?"
Answer:

So that is issue # 1 overcome.
Issue 2 - Can the Saints hear us?
This belief stems from our understanding of the Resurrection of Chirst:
Christ is risen from the dead, by death he has trampled down death and to those in the tombs he bestows life.
The Saints are not dead. They are very much alive in heaven and we know that they pray:

So... We know they are not dead and we know that they are praying.

Here is where Tradition kicks in. We believe they can hear us.

That is the place where we likely would diverge and that is the where you would likely have the most intelligent discussion about it. I hope that you can see what I mean here.

So... how are we different from the RC? In about a million other ways. This just happens to be one of the things that we agree on (except for the statue thing....)

I thank you for this most interesting perspective, and yes you have helped me understand what it is Orthodox do regarding Icons and Saints.

I am however still cautious (its my Lutheran upbringing) about praying to anyone (saint or angel) for intercession, except Jesus Christ.

I do however find that honouring those who have set examples is a pleasant practice and worthy of our own self-reflection in how we lead our lives as compared to how we should be leading them.

I can't say I am pleased to hear that the R.C. veneration of saints is the same as Orthodoxy, and I am still not convinced that it is the same if one regards the almost Pantheon structure of Saints stretched out across the R.C. church and its insistance of assigning Saints with the powers of God and not reflecting on the point that it was God that granted miracles through the saints and not the saints themselves. This is where I am a little pushy regarding Sainthood and how we view Sainthood throughout all denoms.

Thank you and may the Lord Bless and Keep you. :thumbsup:

[MORTANIUS]

All the Apostolic Churches ( Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox , Roman Catholic ) venerate the saints and the icons so that means it is a very old dogma

Very old? The 7th Ecumenical Council didn't occur because it was an old issue. Or am I incorrect in stating this?:scratch:

[Oblio]

Very old? The 7th Ecumenical Council didn't occur because it was an old issue. Or am I incorrect in stating this?:scratch:


Actually it was old at that time as evidenced by extant images from centuries before [c.f. Dura Europa]. What was new was the capitulation to Muslim beliefs concerning Holy images.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes this is true. I also believe that icons, the Saints, and veneration all play a role in "teaching" what the nature of the Church is (the Church being composed of Christ and the Saints, in unity) , the nature of the incarnation, and theosis. In this way they truly are windows to heaven. Plus it helps to teach the virtue of humility, if not by anything else, at least a physical and mental acknowledgement of something bigger than ourselves.

It kind of all comes together in the praxis and theology surrounding icons.

Of course icons definitely play a role in educting people about the gospels, lives of the saints, etc. To deny this would be to deny a basic tennet of Orthodox teaching.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I think the key is understanding. We shouldn't tell inquirers that they HAVE to do it. Many inquirers come from an iconoclastic background. From people I've talked to, learning to venerate icons is part of the process of conversion. Having grown up in a home where people venerated statues of saints, it wasn't a big leap for me to grasp the concept of venerating icons. For someone who is used to worshiping in an empty hall without so much as a cross on the wall, it may be a BIG hurdle. The physical act of kissing an icon is not requred to attend Divine Liturgy. In my church, we have some elderly parishoners that walk in and take their seats because they can't make the walk up to the front to venerate the icons. No one is telling them to go home. People who have never attended a DL read about all the stuff that happens in DL and become intimidated and may not attend because they think people will look at them funny if they don't do it, too. Inquirers don't HAVE to venerate icons. We don't venerate icons because it's required. We venerate icons because we love the saint and God.

kamikat

Exactly. No one is required to venerate icons. People who are in the process of embracing Orthodox Christianity will learn to love the veneration of icons as they come to understand what in fact it is they are doing when they venerate an icon.

[copticorthodoxy]

Very old? The 7th Ecumenical Council didn't occur because it was an old issue. Or am I incorrect in stating this?:scratch:

yes very old , the 7th Ecumenical Council occur to preserve the icons veneration and not to invent the icon veneration , the evidence is " as Oriental Orthodox we believe only in the first 3 Ecumenical Councils and we don't regonise the 7th Council laws but we venerate the icons " so that means the icons veneration is very old dogma , We venerate it without any Council , it is a living dogma

[buzuxi02]

A heavenly saint does not become a saint at the instant the Church glorifies (canonizes) him/her. The Church simply acknowledges the fact. This is the reason the glorification ceremony takes place. The faithful had already begun to venerate the saint before any Church authority officially sanctions it. This spontaneous veneration from the faithful brings forth good fruits. This may include a miracle, solace, the saints earthly conduct has made a person embrace him as a personal role model etc. If this spontaneous veneration continues and continues to bring forth good fruits ,then the church can glorify him acknowledging the fact of his sanctity.

This is an ancient christian tradition as coptic points out. The Assyrians who acknowledge only 2 councils, the non-chalcedon who acknowledge 3 councils, both not connected with the EO or RC for over 1500 years, we are all in agreement on this.

[kamikat]

I
I can't say I am pleased to hear that the R.C. veneration of saints is the same as Orthodoxy,

There is evidence that veneration of the saints has been a common practice in the Ancient Churches since the first century. The only churches that deny it are the modern Protestant churches.

kamikat

[kamikat]

Very old? The 7th Ecumenical Council didn't occur because it was an old issue. Or am I incorrect in stating this?:scratch:

The 7th EC didn't establish icon veneration. The 7th EC resored icon veneration. The iconoclastic movement was influenced by the Islamic regime in place at the time. Icon veneration had been in place for centuries prior to the iconoclastic movement.

Please read this article http://www.protomartyr.org/image.html

kamikat

[MORTANIUS]

yes very old , the 7th Ecumenical Council occur to preserve the icons veneration and not to invent the icon veneration , the evidence is " as Oriental Orthodox we believe only in the first 3 Ecumenical Councils and we don't regonise the 7th Council laws but we venerate the icons " so that means the icons veneration is very old dogma , We venerate it without any Council , it is a living dogma

Luke, the Disciple of the Apostle Paul, was an icon painter, and so history states that his very first subject was the mother of our Lord.

Was this image venerated upon its creation? I don't believe it was, or at least there is no historical evidence to suggest it was until much, much later (such as duplicates of it and so forth).

Icons first came to depict events. Were this events venerated as the icons of saints have been durring the 7th Ecumenical Council?

I truly feel that I would like to learn the answers to such things for my own personal sake.

I realize that Icons have been presented long before the 7th Ecumenical Council, and with this I am not arguing.

I am however aware that the veneration and patronage applied to Icons depicting Saints is another matter entirely.

I would still like some feedback on this matter.:sigh:

[eoe]

It is a fact that Icon veneration was widespread at the beginning of the iconoclasm right? Start there and work backwards. I applaud your efforts to learn things for yourself instead of relying on "some guy". The truth can hold up to scrutiny.