Eastern Orthodoxy vs. Roman Catholicism

[paleodoxy]

These questions are by no means exhaustive, and I already have a fairly solid understanding of what separates these two communions, but I wanted to focus on one issue in particular:

Is my understanding correct that Eastern Orthodoxy emphasizes that prayers directed towards the dead are "for" (not "to") the dead, whereas the RCC prays not only for but "to" the dead as well? (The Blessed Virgin Mary, a case in point.)

Would the E.O. church consider those prayers - prayers directed to the dead - as idolatrous, thus distinguishing between invoking the dead (prohibited) from icon veneration (permissible)? Or would they accept Rome's distinction between the type of worship that is rendered to Mary vs. the type of worship rendered to Deity?

Thanks!

[paleodoxy]

Oops! Sorry for the repeated thread! Don't know how that happened.

[kamikat]

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're asking. Having been raised Catholic and now an Orthodox catechumen, I don't see much difference in the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of prayer to the saints. In both cases, we are basically asking the saints to pray to God for us. The second half of the Catholic "Hail Mary" consists of Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen. This would be considered acceptable by Orthodox standards. Is this what you're asking?
kamikat

[paleodoxy]

I was under the impression that the Eastern Church only prayed "for" the saints, not "to" them (as Roman Catholics do).

But it sounds like I got my information confused.

[eoe]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is not "dead". Christ has destroyed death and to those in the tombs he has bestowed life.

To deny this is to deny the whole basis of our salvation.

Prayer is in no way worship. Prayer is communication. If I ask you to pray for me or if I ask a Saint to pray for me it is the same thing. I am asking a person to intercede with God on my behalf.

We can ask the Saints to pray to God for us.

Or would they accept Rome's distinction between the type of worship that is rendered to Mary vs. the type of worship rendered to Deity?
Veneration is not worship. If the President of the US walked into the room would you stand up? That is veneration. Ever saluted the flag? Veneration.

Veneration is a display of respect. That is not in any way worship. I respect my parents - I worship only God.


Holy Saint John the Wonderworker pray to God for all of us that have posted in this thread.

Here is how it works... I am asking Saint John to pray to God for us.

[paleodoxy]

Hi,

I'm already familiar with the E.O. claim that the saints on the "other side" are not (strictly speaking) "dead". But I don't quite understand the great emphasis placed on the argument with reference to prayer.

Even Protestants acknowledge from Christ's words in Luke 20 that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are "alive" - in the sense of being both (a) conscious and (b) redeemed (not condemned). Christ's words here, of course, were directed at the Saducees, who denied that there would be a resurrection.

So for practical purposes, from now on I will use "dead" here as a means of distinguishing between those who are proximately available for direct communication (whether electronically or verbally/physically) and those who are not.

Prayer is in no way worship. Prayer is communication. If I ask you to pray for me or if I ask a Saint to pray for me it is the same thing. I am asking a person to intercede with God on my behalf.

Conceptually, I can grasp this distinction. There certainly is a wide chasm between praying to God as God and praying to a saint for prayer support. However, I have trouble grasping the idea that prayer is somehow merely communication.

For example, how do you know that a prayer to St. Peter is anymore certain to arrive at its intended destination than a prayer to another saint living across the world in China? Doesn't this border on ascribing divine qualities or attributes to a saint/angel (e.g., omnipresence)?

Veneration is not worship. If the President of the US walked into the room would you stand up? That is veneration. Ever saluted the flag? Veneration.

If this is how the Orthodox define veneration, then I have no problem with that. I am a High Church Evangelical Anglican, and I will genuflect/bow to the cross. However, in Eastern Orthodoxy, does the veneration of an icon require prayer to that saint, or would that be optional?

By the way, I intend the utmost respect towards you, and none of my questions should be construed as rhetorical belligerence. I ask them sincerely.

God bless you,
Jonathan

[HandmaidenOfGod]

We ask for their prayers. We do not pray "to" them like we pray to God.

[eoe]

If this is how the Orthodox define veneration, then I have no problem with that.
Cool. People try to make it into something it isn't... It is kinda silly when you really understand what is happening.
I am a High Church Evangelical Anglican, and I will genuflect/bow to the cross.
Then you venerate the cross.:thumbsup:
However, in Eastern Orthodoxy, does the veneration of an icon require prayer to that saint, or would that be optional?
Two different things. IT is like driving and chewing gum. You can do one or the other or both. Still different things tho.

By the way, I intend the utmost respect towards you, and none of my questions should be construed as rhetorical belligerence. I ask them sincerely.
Sure thing. I am glad to help in any way I can. I apologize if my responses were harsh.

[paleodoxy]

My question is:

How do you know that all of your prayers are reaching the Virgin Mary anymore than you can guarantee that a believer on the other side of the world could receive a delivered prayer from you?

[gtsecc]

How do you know that all of your prayers are reaching the Virgin Mary anymore than you can guarantee that a believer on the other side of the world could receive a delivered prayer from you?
The Church with one voice guide by the Holy Spirit has universally said so for 2,000 years.

[Orthocat]

The Church with one voice guide by the Holy Spirit has universally said so for 2,000 years.


true that gtsecc!! and good to see you...

although the size of your font makes me realize how old I am!! :eek:

[DonVA]

I have more faith in my prayers being delivered to and received by the appropirate recipient than I would in a fax I'm sending to China.

Do you think some people confuse the idea of "prayer = communication" with "praise = worship?"

[choirfiend]

My question is:

How do you know that all of your prayers are reaching the Virgin Mary anymore than you can guarantee that a believer on the other side of the world could receive a delivered prayer from you?


Because we believe God enables them to. They are not omnipresent or omnipotent. Truly, they exist only because God wills it (as is the case for all of us). So, whatever is possible through dwelling in God (as the saints do) is due to God, not the person. Does that make sense?

[kamikat]

However, in Eastern Orthodoxy, does the veneration of an icon require prayer to that saint, or would that be optional?

God bless you,
Jonathan

When you walk into a church, you are preparing to go to the Kingdom. His saints are with Him in the Kingdom. When you venerate the icons, you are greeting the saints who are with you during the liturgy. When you walk into a family gathering, do you greet your family members? This is the same with kissing the icons at church.

kamikat

[choirfiend]

Absolutely true, Kami, that's it exactly! And, every time, it's an affirmation of the goodness of the created world and a statement of belief in the Incarnation.

[paleodoxy]

Because we believe God enables them to. They are not omnipresent or omnipotent. Truly, they exist only because God wills it (as is the case for all of us). So, whatever is possible through dwelling in God (as the saints do) is due to God, not the person. Does that make sense?

How is a finite human being (e.g., Mary) capable of hearing and receiving millions of prayers around the world virtually simultaneously?

I don't see how the doctrine of invoking saints can avoid virtually deifying the saints.

[icxn]

...I don't see how the doctrine of invoking saints can avoid virtually deifying the saints.
And what is all the fuss about that? Never heard of theosis (deification)?
I have said, Ye are gods; and all [of you] children of the Most High.

[Michael the Iconographer]

When you walk into a church, you are preparing to go to the Kingdom. His saints are with Him in the Kingdom. When you venerate the icons, you are greeting the saints who are with you during the liturgy. When you walk into a family gathering, do you greet your family members? This is the same with kissing the icons at church.

kamikat

Very, very well put!

[Michael the Iconographer]

How is a finite human being (e.g., Mary) capable of hearing and receiving millions of prayers around the world virtually simultaneously?

I don't see how the doctrine of invoking saints can avoid virtually deifying the saints.

How strong is your faith? It all comes down to a matter of faith. Either you have it, or you do not. If you have it, then you believe that saints here your intercessions and intercede on your behalf to God. If you dont have faith, then none of this really matters.

[Theophorus]

My question is:

How do you know that all of your prayers are reaching the Virgin Mary anymore than you can guarantee that a believer on the other side of the world could receive a delivered prayer from you?

Because the body of Christ is one.

[choirfiend]

How much harder is it for a saint to hear one prayer, or hear a thousand, or a million? Someone once had a problem where they would only pray out loud to the saints and questioned silent prayer to them, until I pointed out the silliness in expecting them to hear simply because he spoke out loud.

Shall we limit God (in His saints) by a silly thing such as a mortal human limitation when it comes to numbers or time?

He is wondrous in His saints!

[buzuxi02]

Prayers for the dead are memorials for deceased loved ones. An Orthodox funeral service is full of prayers for a deceased loved one. We also have a 3rd, 9th, 40th day memorial and a yearly memorial on the anniversary of the dead. Canons explain the benefits of these prayers, including the benefits recieved by the living who pray them.
The OT book of Maccabees explains that since there will be a ressurection of the dead (and a final judgement by Christ at the second coming) these may benefit the deceased. Paul prayed for the deceased Onesimus for this very reason- 2Tim 1.18.

As far as intercessory prayers thru the Saints, this is part of the divine plan that God granted to his church. Both to the church Triumphant and church Militant.

God can direct a prayer to the proper heavenly saint that an earthly christian invokes. Whats impossible with man is possible with God.
God himself has allowed for this privelege. And these Intercessory Prayers extend to the heavenly Saints: (Rev 5.8) and to the holy Angels: (Rev 8.3). Note how Rev 8.3 claims the incense which is to be offered thru the hand of the angel "was given to him". It is part of the divine plan granted by the Lord to those who are now closest to GOD. Thats why these heavenly Saints are now called priests of God (rev 1.6, 20.6). Part of the role of a priest was to offer prayer on behalf of his flock (see Luke 1.9-10 Heb 7.22-26). Angels also offer intercessory prayers on behalf of the faithful (Zech 1.12-14)

[Vedant]

When you feel alone, talk to the saints. God is always there, but so are billions and billions of other fantastic people hoping for the best for you even if you can't see them.

[seebs]

(the Hail mary says...) Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.

One of the most absolutely spooky things I have ever seen in a piece of writing was a boy who was about to die praying "Santa Maria, Madre de Dios, ruega por nostros peccadores, ahora en la hora de nuestra muerte."

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now at the hour of our death."

I know that story inside and out and it still gives me chills up my spine and makes me cry.

[Prawnik]

pregunta mas estupida, but why spooky?

[rusmeister]

One other thing no one else has said.
This may not help people that want to understand how everything works, but for me, hey, it's a mystery and I don't know!!!

I trust the Church and when I get confused, say, "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!"

It sure relieves me of the burden of needing to understand the mysteries of the universe. Not that reason is not important - all the regulars here'll tell you I'm a big CS Lewis fan. But when posed with the questions of the meaning of the universe, reason generally gets me to '42'.
;)

[seebs]

pregunta mas estupida, but why spooky?

The immediacy of it. "Now in the hour of our death" is not a thought you see many people forming.

[Mark Downham]

I understand that Father Thomas Hopko has written and published a Declaration of Intent for the immediate resolution of all the outstanding differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and set out the "roadmap" for the resumption of unbroken Communion?

I further understand that this has been communicated to both the Vatican and Constantinople and that the discussions on the implications of this Declaration of Intent are in progress?

Love.

Mark

[rusmeister]

Hello, Mark!
I guess I'd like to know where you got that. I googled it and couldn't come up with anything specific like that.

It certainly sounds improbable. How could any priest make such a unilateral declaration? That matter requires nothing less than an Ecumenical Council.

[choirfiend]

It wouldn't be a declaration, if it were true. It would be an article or an opinion piece. Resuming communion is certainly on our list of things to do, so it should not be surprising to hear that people are trying to figure out how it could be done. Even so, nothing's forthcoming, and the OC and the RC do not have plans for any sort of communion.

I would like to see a source referencing this "declaration" or the declaration itself. Or else I'll just call him to ask Fr. Tom if it's true. But he's a very busy man and I'd rather just see the proof here.

He's also written an article that roadmaps how the OCA and Antiochians may pursue jurisdictional union. It was rather good---but we're not taking steps to achieve it yet.

[gzt]

I recally seeing something written by him on the subject recently, but it wasn't the sort of thing Catholics would readily assent to. It was almost of the tone, "Abandon your satanic delusions and join us."

[gtsecc]

I don't see how the doctrine of invoking saints can avoid virtually deifying the saints.
If the Saints AREN'T deified - how can we ever hope of deification ourselves?

[Theophorus]

If the Saints AREN'T deified - how can we ever hope of deification ourselves?


:thumbsup:

[rusmeister]

Protestants are afraid of/misunderstand what we call "deification" or "theosis".

It's important that they get that we do NOT become omnipotent Gods, but like God in certain ways as perfected creatures.

Jesus commanded us to be perfect, so while not possible to be truly perfect and sinless as fallen man, perfected man ought to be, uh, perfect. Lewis spoke of this in "Miracles" when he spoke of miracles of the "new creation".
It's probably best to say that He intends for us to become godlike - like Him in holiness, certainly, and the miracles of the new creation (like Jesus walking on water) may be possible for us as perfected beings.
I don't KNOW this, but it certainly seems possible, and there is Scriptural and logical backing. I'll trust God and not worry about it too much right now.

Specific Church teachings on Theosis, anyone?

[Happy Orthodox]

How is a finite human being (e.g., Mary) capable of hearing and receiving millions of prayers around the world virtually simultaneously?

I don't see how the doctrine of invoking saints can avoid virtually deifying the saints.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23).
It's not them that have that ability in themselves as limited humans, but it's the grace that allows them to do that. They are in God and God is in them, and they are one with God. Therefore, they are able to do miracles, including hearing us. Not even that, they can see our souls, our thoughts, our desires, our problems. That is called clairvoyance. God makes them so, as He is clairvoyant Himself.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

My question is:

How do you know that all of your prayers are reaching the Virgin Mary anymore than you can guarantee that a believer on the other side of the world could receive a delivered prayer from you?

Because she shows up from time to time telling us so... as do other Saints who have gone before us.....especially on the mountain that she loves best....

Mount Athos... her personal favorite during her time living among us.

You can also see plain examples given in the book of Revelations.

Forgive me....:liturgy: