[open] Who is a Jew

[ChavaK]

While looking at other messianic forums, I have been very surprised at the people who are being encouraged
to call themselves Jews (none of which are valid from a
Jewish POV, but these people are presenting themselves
as Jews to non-Jews and Jews alike).
These include: people who "feel" they are Jewish, one who had a "dream" from G-d telling them they were Jewish, some with remote Jewish ancestors (such as a
great great paternal grandfather), others who think they had a Jewish relative (either by a Jewish sounding name or by oral family history, but without any proof), and those who are "grafted in".
So my question is, what standards do messianics have for accepting someone as Jewish? Or are there none, since it is a congregational movement, without a central governing body?
Also, is there any attempt to organize a central body to oversee these types of questions, or do you think messianics will remain a congregational movement?
thanks for satisfying my curiosity!:)

[insaneinthebrain]

So my question is, what standards do messianics have for accepting someone as Jewish?
This seems to be one of those things people are making up as they go along; there is no standard that I'm aware of.

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.

[thetruthremains]

While looking at other messianic forums, I have been very surprised at the people who are being encouraged
to call themselves Jews (none of which are valid from a
Jewish POV, but these people are presenting themselves
as Jews to non-Jews and Jews alike).
These include: people who "feel" they are Jewish, one who had a "dream" from G-d telling them they were Jewish, some with remote Jewish ancestors (such as a
great great paternal grandfather), others who think they had a Jewish relative (either by a Jewish sounding name or by oral family history, but without any proof), and those who are "grafted in".

Yes, kind of kooky isn't it? I guess this problem originated at the top so to speak. I have found that there are many teachers in the Messianic movement who have misrepresented themselves as Jewish, and then later it was exposed that they were not. If I remember correctly, one of the teachers a while back was telling people that if they followed Torah, then they were Jewish. Of course, then there is the two house-lost tribes confusion. As a Jewish person looking in, this must appear kind of perplexing to you Chavak. To ansewer your question, obviously there is no standard. As I am sure you are aware, the rabbinic standard is matrilineal.

[BarbB]

This seems to be one of those things people are making up as they go along; there is no standard that I'm aware of.

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.

I agree with you totally. This business of us all being Jews (especially cultural Jews) really bugs me. I'm not Jewish - I'm a Gentile believer in Yeshua.

p.s. iitb - is that a photo from the garden of the Menorah at the Knesset? The roses are gorgeous!

[insaneinthebrain]

p.s. iitb - is that a photo from the garden of the Menorah at the Knesset? The roses are gorgeous!
Beats me. It was sent home by a friend that volunteered at CFI earlier this year.

[plum]

This seems to be one of those things people are making up as they go along; there is no standard that I'm aware of.

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.
simple and plain. and i totally agree.

[Talmidah]

Would individual congregations establish a standard for this? Are any of the leading messianic organizations planning a responsa that addresses this? Or is it pretty much a non-issue among the Messianic movement at large?

[ChavaK]

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.

Exactly! I have never understood the need by some
to feel that they have to be Jewish....like they feel they are
second class citizens if not...

[HaNotsri]

Personally, I fall along the belief in rabbinic standards. Jewishness is passed down through the mother (or halachic conversion) and the title, whether it be Cohen, Levi, Ben David, or whatever shevet you come from is passed through the father.

[Steve Petersen]

A major portion of the Messianic movement has its origin in Charismatic Christianity. It emphasizes following 'the [Holy] Spirit's leading.' Trouble is most of that leading is completely subjective; you will often hear 'God showed Me that XYZ.' Doesn't seem to matter what the Torah says about things. This results in boundless individualism, unregulated by any body.

[Talmidah]

Steve, is there any effort at perhaps different congregations becoming more organized, maybe under one larger umbrella organization? If this were to occur, would this larger group be in charge of developing and defining halacha pertinent to their membership?

[Wags]

Personally, I fall along the belief in rabbinic standards. Jewishness is passed down through the mother (or halachic conversion) and the title, whether it be Cohen, Levi, Ben David, or whatever shevet you come from is passed through the father.

Reform Judaism says one is a Jew if either parent is Jewish, and the child is raised Jewish. And of course the law of return for Israel is even broader.

[ShirChadash]

Thank you for making this thread [open] :clap:

I have always said that No one is a Jew, but a Jew. No one is an "Israelite", but an Israeli.

Many times in the past, I have asked those who are non-jews but consider themselves Jewish or "Israelite" due to their faith, to show me Israel aside from Judah. It can't be done. There is no Israel (the people) aside from Judah today.

I don't believe in "lost tribes", since all and every tribe intermixed into and co-mingled with Judah, although I understand there are indeed people-groups who slipped from notice for a very long time and have recently come into public awareness...

"Jew" is a term which now identifies all children of Israel/Jacob. No matter how people want to spiritualize this away, gentiles are not Jews (save for legitimate conversion) and there is nothing "righter" or "wronger" with being of either one. G-d created both and both belong to Him.

*eta: sorry, I wasn't really speaking to the issue of who is a Jew in respects to whether it's by the mother or by father or both parents, etc. I was more speaking to the issue of "grafted in" believers calling themselves Jews or "Israelites".

[HadassahSukkot]

Reform Judaism says one is a Jew if either parent is Jewish, and the child is raised Jewish. And of course the law of return for Israel is even broader.


My understanding biblically is that one gains their hebriac heritage by mother or father; or conversion.

Rabbinic rulings came in during the crusades and pogroms because so many women were raped and children resulted who were "persona non grata" in both the christian communities and amongst our people.

I've been researching my family tree and find that on my father's side (his father and his mother) and on my mother's side (Her father's people) come from Jewish stock, had "assimilated" In the UK/Wales/Ireland/Scotland/France/Germany areas..

My fiance's mother is (as well as both of her parents are) Jewish.

I find it ironic because I don't have 100% proof of my heritage; (Because my ancestors were in the church system but were ethnically Jewish) I have no "right of return" but because my fiance does; he has right of return to Israel, and I can go with him by proxy.

Many (a handful I have met folks from actually) MJ congregations (also so many churches the reverse way) are treating folks who aren't by conversion or birth Jewish; as second-class.

This isn't at all what G-d intended.

The middle wall was taken down, all are on equal footing so long as they are following G-d and his right-rulings .

[Sephania]

Who is a True Israelite? According to Yeshua, one who has no guile. John 1:47

:)

[chunkofcoal]

While looking at other messianic forums, I have been very surprised at the people who are being encouraged
to call themselves Jews (none of which are valid from a
Jewish POV, but these people are presenting themselves
as Jews to non-Jews and Jews alike).
These include: people who "feel" they are Jewish, one who had a "dream" from G-d telling them they were Jewish, some with remote Jewish ancestors (such as a
great great paternal grandfather), others who think they had a Jewish relative (either by a Jewish sounding name or by oral family history, but without any proof), and those who are "grafted in".


Thank you for making this thread 'open'.
I might rattle a few cages, but I'll comment on the first part of your post because I've 'been there, done that'. I became convinced that my ancestors were part of the "lost tribes" I guess you could say, and I was proud of that. And in this situation, the more you look for 'confirmation', the more you seem to find. Some of my ancestors were from a group of people of unknown origin and some do believe that they are "lost tribes" or Jews from Spain. But there are also many other theories as to their origin. But, the idea that I was part of Israel made me feel 'special'. I think maybe reading the Bible and thinking they are your blood family makes you feel differently than reading it and realizing that your ancestors were heathens who worshipped statues and trees. It makes one feel "special" to think they are descendants of Israel, but I think that may be the problem. There are probably a lot of people who are led to research their family and if they do have a true connection to Israel, they might be drawn to read the Bible a little more closely, but some people may not be of Israel and I think that they may be being influenced by something that isn't good. I used to be into the "new age" and the occult and was into reincarnation. People who believe in reincarnation sometimes would have "come as you were" parties, and you'd always end up with a lot of Cleopatras and other 'famous' people but not a whole lot of scullery maids. These people are influenced to make them feel "special". And there are people out there who believe they are the reincarnation of Biblical people, too. Is it the same influence? In some cases, it may be and when you find out the truth and realize you've been led down the wrong path, you might feel ashamed. :cry: Please be careful about this.

There - I've shared my "dirt" in warning to others.

[Sephania]

When Yerushalyim is a milestone around the neck of the world, then you will see a quick separation of the wheat and tares in this area. Who will stand and who will fall.

As I said, a true Israelite is one who has no agenda to be one. Good times and bad, you are what you are.

[Henaynei]

Steve, is there any effort at perhaps different congregations becoming more organized, maybe under one larger umbrella organization? If this were to occur, would this larger group be in charge of developing and defining halacha pertinent to their membership?there are those in the movement who have been praying for years for a righteous beit din (orthodox men) to address halakah - but there is still too much "individualism" in the movement - fall out from the 60s in the US where the population threw away any ability to submit to real authority - *especially* spiritual authority. This is seen clearly in the deterioration and corruption of the orthodox doctrine and theology of the old "main line" churches where doctrine and practices, even of the Catholic Church, have been challenged and changed to come in line with secular opinion and leaving the simple traditional doctrines concerning marriage, sexuality and the clergy, for instance. This same attitude prevents the vast majority of MJs from being willing to submit to "doctrines of men" and demanding that they have the "scriptural right" to interpret scripture as "the spirit tells" them.

Honestly even Judaism is far from immune to this cancer, as seen in the avalanche away from Orthodox (and even Conservative) practice and the mushrooming of social and secular (feel good) "denominations" within the Jewish community world wide - especially in Israel and the US.

IMHO

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Mishbocha:

Both of my parents, and all 4 grandparents were practicing Jews, so therefore I am too. That's not too tough to figure out for me.

When you delve into the area of how much Jewish blood is needed to be called a Jew reminds me of the Nazi definition -- one Jewish grandparent.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[AlanGurvey]

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.

I just find it foolish for one to wrap himself/herself in a Jewish identity without converting or being born of a Jewish mother. It isn't just belief that makes a Jew, but blood or a strong commitment.

[AlanGurvey]

Both of my parents, and all 4 grandparents were practicing Jews, so therefore I am too.

It makes you a Jew, the title of 'a practicing Jew' is independant of ones lineage.

[jgonz]

Romans 2: 29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from G-d."

According to this Scripture, any Believer could be considered a Jew. The important aspect is being adopted into the Vine, Yeshua, a Jew.

If you're adopted into a family, you take on their name, their manner of dress, their culture and traditions... No?

I can understand why a Jewish person might take offense at a wild-eyed newbie calling themself a Messianic Jew, claiming to possibly have Jewish blood, and wearing the tallit & kippah without even really understanding why. However, isn't this what Happens in adoption?

At this point, only G-d knows who has Jewish blood and is really Jewish. I doubt seriously there is any Jewish blood in my family line, but it's highly likely DH does. Does he call himself Jewish? No. I don't care about labels, and neither does he. I feel that if it's important to someone else to express the possibility that they may have Jewish blood, or they found evidence that they do, then Great! What's the problem?

[Henaynei]

actually I don't see that passage that way, at all :shrug:

b'Shalom
resident non-Jewish Messianic irritant
Henaynei

[HaNotsri]

Reform Judaism says one is a Jew if either parent is Jewish, and the child is raised Jewish. And of course the law of return for Israel is even broader.

Yes, but they have no halachic authority. Most Reforms Jews have a hard time believing in the God of the Bible, let alone clinging to the Torah of life. The State...well who cares what the State of Israel says? It has no authority on matters of faith and religion. It's a secular institution plain and simple and its rulings have no bearing on what the Jewish faith says about "who is a Jew?" This is the State who allows pork to be served in restaurants (and other nonkosher restaurants), the state that destroys ancient keverim, that evicts Jews from their homes, that desecrates the Sabbath, that allows Gay parades in Jerusalem, etc Who cares what the State of Israel says on any religious issues

[thetruthremains]

Yes, but they have no halachic authority. Most Reforms Jews have a hard time believing in the God of the Bible, let alone clinging to the Torah of life. The State...well who cares what the State of Israel says? It has no authority on matters of faith and religion. It's a secular institution plain and simple and its rulings have no bearing on what the Jewish faith says about "who is a Jew?" This is the State who allows pork to be served in restaurants (and other nonkosher restaurants), the state that destroys ancient keverim, that evicts Jews from their homes, that desecrates the Sabbath, that allows Gay parades in Jerusalem, etc Who cares what the State of Israel says on any religious issues
Didn't the Hebrew scriptures define ones heritage patrilineally, because I seem to remember a lot of "son of" in there. :help:

[Henaynei]

there are several "Jewishness"es:

1) anyone born to Jewish parents (whatever definition the person is using), no matter whether or not they ever do or practice anything Jewish - essentially "ethnicly" Jewish

2) then there is a Jewishness that is being a Jewish citizen of Israel

3) there is a Jewishness that is based on religious observance - example: converts

There are Jews who are any combination of the above, and then.......

there are non-Jewish people who claim "Jewishness" based on some degree of "participation or claim" in any or all of these....

[ChavaK]

Quote- I have found that there are many teachers in the Messianic movement who have misrepresented themselves as Jewish, and then later it was exposed that they were not. Quote

When people both well know or not well known misrepresent themselves as Jews, I would think it
would be a great diservice to the messianic community.
It makes it appear that these people are trying to
fraudulently legitimize the messianic movement and I
would think in the long run that will cause harm....

[jgonz]

It makes it appear that these people are trying to fraudulently legitimize the messianic movement and I
would think in the long run that will cause harm....
I totally agree with you. No one in leadership or any level of public authority should be misrepresenting themselves. Finding out a leader was not Jewish (after they claimed they were) would be Easily be cause for offense and people turning away.

[MattyJames]

This seems to be one of those things people are making up as they go along; there is no standard that I'm aware of.

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.

Well said IITB. My Father and I were discussing this very topic and we came to the same conclusion as you have.

Never the less, there is the passage of Adoption that was mentioned earlier, and that, from a Faith perspective, makes us all Jewish.

But lets look at things a little different. What about Ruth?? Was She a Israelite or Gentile?? or did it even matter?

I rest my case.

MJ

[Henaynei]

When people [in the movement] misrepresent themselves as Jews, I would think it
would be a great diservice to the messianic community.
It makes it appear that these people are trying to
fraudulently legitimize the messianic movement and I
would think in the long run that will cause harm....I couldn't agree more.... :thumbsup:

[ShirChadash]

Romans 2: 29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from G-d."

According to this Scripture, any Believer could be considered a Jew. The important aspect is being adopted into the Vine, Yeshua, a Jew.



not to argue with you, but what of verse 2:28 (directly preceding verse 29 you quoted) which is inherantly tied to verse 29 by the "but", and is

2:28For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical.

?

Considering verse 29 is dependent on verse 28 for its full meaning to be connoted, it seems to me that the phrase doesn't negate the fact that a Jew is still one who is physically a Jew, it simply points out that physical is not all (or enough, as regards relationship with HaSHem) -- one must be not only "outwardly" (in appearance or in practices) but also "inwardly" (in the circumcised heart, the spirit) a Jew -- it's an admonition, not a declaration of a change.

I don't personally see this passage as saying that a physical Jew is not a Jew, nor that one can be a Jew merely by being spiritually of a believer's "bent".

respectfully and with shalom,
~Z

[Amora]

I dont judge ones worth by ones jewishness.
I have always felt, that being a jew only increases one's responsibility, it does not give you any advantage, make you a better person etc. It "just" means you need to follow hashem.

When i first came inside, i was afraid jewishness itself would be an issue, and i discovered that faith, love and hashem are the issues.
Ill admit, that in some ways, some MJ's here are more jewish then some jews i know.

that said, because being a jew is at the most basic level a RELIGIOUS thing, ones jewishness, needs to be defined by the Halacha.

[Henaynei]

I agree Amora, it is just so very ironic that so many folk are determined to be Jewish by the instructions of Torah and halakah - both of which they have shunned and shamed and rejected - often for generations :cry:

[Liorah]

I agree Amora, it is just so very ironic that so many folk are determined to be Jewish by the instructions of Torah and halakah - both of which they have shunned and shamed and rejected - often for generations :cry:


Yes, that is so true.

[ChavaK]

A major portion of the Messianic movement has its origin in Charismatic Christianity. It emphasizes following 'the [Holy] Spirit's leading.' Trouble is most of that leading is completely subjective; you will often hear 'God showed Me that XYZ.' Doesn't seem to matter what the Torah says about things. This results in boundless individualism, unregulated by any body.
thank you for pointing this out...it explains a great deal.

[Tishri1]

My son is adopted and we are raising him as our own flesh and blood. He became as much a part of us that day, as if he was born from my womb, and no one better tell him he is not my son or a true member of our family or that he doesnt belong!!!!!! He is as much my son as I am his mom...

Some ties run deeper that blood, blood is very superficial in our family...:wave:

[Henaynei]

A major portion of the Messianic movement has its origin in Charismatic Christianity. It emphasizes following 'the [Holy] Spirit's leading.' Trouble is most of that leading is completely subjective; you will often hear 'God showed Me that XYZ.' Doesn't seem to matter what the Torah says about things. This results in boundless individualism, unregulated by any body.this kind of run amok individualism is not exclusive to the church or the Messianic - it is rampant in our society at large and has (for my money) been part of the same infection that brought Political Correctness into these same bodies..... the only places that seem to be holding the line against this madness are strongly orthodox religious traditions, like Orthodox Judaism and the older Catholic traditions - even other forms of Judaism, like Conservative, Reform, Humanist, etc, show clear signs of this malignancy with their "I do it MY way" practices - and the older traditions mentioned above all show the damage from this cancer as their numbers AND traditions are eaten away at an ever increasing rate as more and more folk demand that things be made "relevant" to them - we truly are in the "I" of the storm..... :cry: :( :sigh:

[ChavaK]

this kind of run amok individualism is not exclusive to the church or the Messianic - other forms of Judaism, like Conservative, Reform, Humanist, etc, show clear signs of this malignancy with their "I do it MY way" practices :cry: :( :sigh:

I do see one difference though.. the liberal movements are not saying "G-d told us such and such", they are just using their own personal preferences to decide what halacha to follow or not. So I don't know
which is "worse"- someone who insists G-d told them
something personaly and therefore interprets things
that way, versus someone who is not using the Torah
at all as a reference point for decisions...

[Henaynei]

I do see one difference though.. the liberal movements are not saying "G-d told us such and such", they are just using their own personal preferences to decide what halacha to follow or not. So I don't know
which is "worse"- someone who insists G-d told them
something personally and therefore interprets things
that way, versus someone who is not using the Torah
at all as a reference point for decisions...at least within the "G-d told me crowd" we have a common denominator - most of them truly DO believe in and want to honor G-d and thus there is a platform for discussion and change (Fact: it is from among their number that most, if not all, of the truly Torah observant and halakah positive Messianics have come) - the other crowd is essentially anarchistic - they define right and wrong TOTALLY by their shifting sand, emotional, "relativistic" philosophy - on such a foundation there is little to no ground on which to build a dialogue :(

[Tishri1]

My son is adopted and we are raising him as our own flesh and blood. He became as much a part of us that day, as if he was born from my womb, and no one better tell him he is not my son or a true member of our family or that he doesnt belong!!!!!! He is as much my son as I am his mom...

Some ties run deeper that blood, blood is very superficial in our family...:wave:hehehe quoting myself:P

I think that depending of how CLOSE you are to the body of believers you worship with , and how they have decided (by scripture, consenses of the Elders, and of course the Witness of the Holy Spirit) that they want their Shul to function, is going to tell how Jewish you are....not blood (unless of course the Shul you are in decides that Blood is important to them).

I really see things differently as I know how "one flesh" our adopted child is to the rest of us...I dont treat him any differently and expect him to look and act and be just like us(it's a no brainer really)

How would we respond if this discussion was brought into the same situation as I have with my son?

What if we were all adopted into Jesus' family? If we were suddenly His kids, with His last name, and living in His house?:wave:

[Talmidah]

If a Jewish family adopts a non-Jewish baby, that child would of course be part of the family in every way. He could have the same last name, eat the same foods, go to the same schools, read the same bible, etc., as the biological children of the family. But he would not be Jewish unless and until he goes through the conversion process.

I won't argue further, just wanted to mention this one aspect of adoption.

[ChavaK]

Reform Judaism says one is a Jew if either parent is Jewish, and the child is raised Jewish. And of course the law of return for Israel is even broader.

Of course, the law of return may allow someone to move to Israel, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are
accepted as being Jewish.

[Tishri1]

I was just arguing the point that some people feel in a spiritual way, the way my Adopted son feels. It doesnt matter how we see it, the question is How does the Father see it?....:wave:

BTW whether I was Jew or Gentile I would feel the same way because I live "the blood thing" every day with my precious son:clap: I know physically, (and how it applies spiritually) cuz I live it!

Adoption is most precious gift a person can recieve, and I believe ABBA would agree with me.

Forget what we Humans have DECIDED that a Jew is...What does ABBA say?

[Tishri1]

:clap:Ephesians 1:3-6 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Messiah Yeshua , who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Messiah, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Messiah Yeshua to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

[ChavaK]

I was just arguing the point that some people feel in a spiritual way the way my Adopted son feels, and It doesnt matter how we see it How does the Father see it....He is the Father here:wave:

BTW whether I was Jewish or Gentile I would feel the same way because I live "the blood thing" every day with my precious son:clap: I know physically (and how it applies spiritually) cuz I live it!

Adoption is most precious gift a person can recieve and I believe ABBA would agree with me

Forget what we Humans have DECIDED that a Jew is...What does ABBA say?

From a messinaic point, what does HaShem say
about who is a Jew?:)

[Henaynei]

What if we were all adopted into Jesus' family? If we were suddenly His kids, with His last name, and living in His house?:wave: ;) we, like your son, would be expected to live according to the rules and traditions of that family - If, whilst vociferously claiming the rights and privileges of membership with one family, one insisted on rejecting the rules and traditions of that family and constantly stubbornly and flauntingly breaking the rules and traditions of their "claimed" family and boldly and insistently parading actions diametrically in opposition to that family - it would be patently obvious that their reason for claiming membership in that family had nothing to do with their love, respect and care of the family but was motivated by self-interest (that is the nicest thing I can call it). NEITHER could anyone in the family rest in confidence that the person would support and defend the family if it was contrary to their perceived self-interest, even to the point of betraying the family when their own "skin" was at risk -- in these days, and those coming, such a possible scenario is actually a reality we can not afford to ignore.....

[Wags]

;) we, like your son, would be expected to live according to the rules and traditions of that family - If, whilst vociferously claiming the rights and privileges of membership with one family, one insisted on rejecting the rules and traditions of that family and constantly stubbornly flaunting breaking the rules and traditions of their "claimed" family and boldly and insistently parade actions diametrically in opposition to that family - it would be patently obvious that their reason for claiming membership in that family had nothing to do with their love, respect and care of the family but was motivated by self-interest (that is the nicest thing I can call it). NEITHER could anyone in the family rest in confidence that that person would support and defend the family if it was contrary to their perceived self-interest, even to the point of betraying the family when their own "skin" was at risk -- in these days, and those coming, such a possible scenario is actually a reality we can not afford to ignore.....

:thumbsup:

[hadara]

This seems to be one of those things people are making up as they go along; there is no standard that I'm aware of.

Personally, it bugs me that not being Jewish is often treated as being a bad thing. Had God wanted us all to be Jewish, he would have made us Jewish.


Amen.


Everyone should be proud of who they are, whether Chinese, Jewish, Indian, whatever. Celebrate your culture!

I heard a quote once from a prominant Jewish teacher. He said that a Jew is whoever wishes to call himself that, realizing that the name "Jew" can bring troubles to himself, and yet willing to accept that name anyway.

hadara

[Tishri1]

I wasnt raised Jewish even though my folks were from Jewish blood (on all sides) and the only sad thing about being proud of your culture, is if your culture is full of pagan practices.:sick:..that is why being in Yeshua's family is sooooo much better than lets say the culture I was raised in, because once I take out all the Paganism and what am I left with:scratch:

I remember ABBA prefering the Israelites culture (His culture) over the other Nations...

Leviticus 18:1-5 NAS Leviticus 18:1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'I am the LORD your God. 3 'You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes. 4 'You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; I am the LORD your God. 5 'So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.

hmmmm .....give up your old culture and start doing this culture, and dont go back to the old, cus I said so.....

Leviticus 18:26 26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you

Leviticus 20:22-23 22 'You are therefore to keep all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them, so that the land to which I am bringing you to live will not spew you out. 23 'Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them. and I also Remember Him hoping that the Jews would be set a good example of showing the world how to live (so they would desire a life like that too)Deuteronomy 4:6-9 6 "So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' 7 "For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the LORD our God whenever we call on Him? 8 "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today? :clap:9 "Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, lest you forget the things which your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons.

Deuteronomy 26:18-19 18 "And the LORD has today declared you to be His people, a treasured possession, as He promised you, and that you should keep all His commandments; 19 and that He shall set you high above all nations which He has made, for praise, fame, and honor; and that you shall be a consecrated people to the LORD your God, as He has spoken." The end result that the World will have to face for not living life God's way is pretty evident

Isaiah 24:4-6 4 The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away. 5 The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.
I think ABBA intended us to be his kids 100% and I dont think He has 2 or 3 ways to live (like one for each culture)....JMO:wave:

[Henaynei]

I think [G-d] intended us to be his kids 100% and I dont think He has 2 or 3 ways to live (like one for each culture)....JMO:wave: I can agree with that, even though every time I do it comes back to haunt me ;)

[Tishri1]

;) we, like your son, would be expected to live according to the rules and traditions of that family - If, whilst vociferously claiming the rights and privileges of membership with one family, one insisted on rejecting the rules and traditions of that family and constantly stubbornly and flauntingly breaking the rules and traditions of their "claimed" family and boldly and insistently parading actions diametrically in opposition to that family - it would be patently obvious that their reason for claiming membership in that family had nothing to do with their love, respect and care of the family but was motivated by self-interest (that is the nicest thing I can call it). NEITHER could anyone in the family rest in confidence that the person would support and defend the family if it was contrary to their perceived self-interest, even to the point of betraying the family when their own "skin" was at risk -- in these days, and those coming, such a possible scenario is actually a reality we can not afford to ignore.....see and I try to put my son in that synario and cant see him doing that.....he is not a black sheep just cuz he has different blood, and to claim membership would not even enter his mind...this isnt a club, it's a family...I try to imagine someone trying to tell him "well just let us do this proceedure to your body and then you will be truly a son" like altering his body will make him anymore a son than he was when we adopted him....Or maybe he can be considered more like a member of the household staff but not a fullfledged son cuz his blood is different...NO NO he is my son and doesnt need to do anything to be more connected to us....and he tries to bend and break the rules all the time, and gets in trouble to:doh: but I'm not gonna kick him out and say you are not my son anymore......even though he did not come from my body is is forever my son, nothing will change that...and I dont want him to be different, because he isnt, we are one...

[Tishri1]

I can agree with that, even though every time I do it comes back to haunt me ;)No one said it would be easy, but I think we make it harder than it needs to be by putting burdens on each other that cause disunity in the family (like sibling rivalry):sigh:

I will stand with ya Henny thay will have to haunt us :eek:both hehehehe

[MattyJames]

No one said it would be easy, but I think we make it harder than it needs to be by putting burdens on each other that cause disunity in the family (like sibling rivalry):sigh:

I will stand with ya Henny thay will have to haunt us :eek:both hehehehe

Make that three of us! :D :groupray:

MJ

[Henaynei]

see and I try to put my son in that synario and cant see him doing that.....he is not a black sheep just cuz he has different blood, and to claim membership would not even enter his mind...this isnt a club, it's a family...I try to imagine someone trying to tell him "well just let us do this procedure to your body and then you will be truly a son" like altering his body will make him anymore a son than he was when we adopted him....Or maybe he can be considered more like a member of the household staff but not a full-fledged son cuz his blood is different...NO NO he is my son and doesn't need to do anything to be more connected to us....and he tries to bend and break the rules all the time, and gets in trouble to:doh: but I'm not gonna kick him out and say you are not my son anymore......even though he did not come from my body is is forever my son, nothing will change that...and I don't want him to be different, because he isn't, we are one... Dear special Lady,
Your son became part of your family as small child - I can tell you that those who adopt much older children have a much different scenario with which to contend ;)

All members of the family have bad days or decades, but they usually still keep (or return to) the family standards - when they refuse to "be a part of the family" and yet still demand the rights and privileges of the family - this is often defined as abusive or criminal - it is certainly the deliberate taking advantage of others - and as for adoption, to be successful it requires a "cutting off" oneself from their former life....

Judaism is not a racial entity since G-d, from the beginning, others than members of the Tribes were welcomed into the Family - BUT in most families there is a notable "family resemblance" - when such a situation exists it is not unreasonable to create a "family resemblance" or tribal tattoo ;)

What ever G-d's reason it IS His command - if a male wants to become Jewish he must endure circumcision - while it might not be the way you or I would do it, and while we may not fully understand - I can tell you that the whole world is better off that it is not run the way I think is correct or fair or right! ;)

[Tishri1]

and as for adoption, to be successful it requires a "cutting off" oneself from their former life.... oooooooooh good one I agree, but what came first the adoptions or the knife hehehe

my boy was circ from birth so he had no choice and actually in our case the knife came first(his papers weren't signed till he was almost a year)

Who does God call as his own possession?Only those who have "the right blood" or those who have Him? (not asking Henny just anyone in particular:wave: ) And what is this "light unto the nations" business any way, if not to seek out potential sons for ABBA....?

[WV25115]

I respect the Jewish people but I can't really understand why someone would want to pretend to be Jewish if they don't want to follow the Jewish laws. If someone wants to be called "Jewish" so badly, why not just convert?

[Daniels]

Who is a Jew

Jesus is the JEW.

[Tishri1]

I respect the Jewish people but I can't really understand why someone would want to pretend to be Jewish if they don't want to follow the Jewish laws. If someone wants to be called "Jewish" so badly, why not just convert?To convert you have to renounce Yeshua...Can someone be considered a son (what ever title that you get when you are a son) and observe Torah and love Yeshua and just not have "blood rights", or conversion be an issue? What if being Jewish means being Torah Observant Children like Yeshua was...is that ok?

[insaneinthebrain]

Who is a Jew

Jesus is the JEW.
:scratch:

[WV25115]

To convert you have to renounce Yeshua...Can someone be considered a son (what ever title that you get when you are a son) and observe Torah and love Yeshua and just not have "blood rights", or conversion be an issue? What if being Jewish means being Torah Observant Children like Yeshua was...is that ok? To be considered a Jew, a person must convert to Judaism. To convert to Judaism, a person must renounce Jesus. If one believes in Jesus, one cannot convert to Judaism. If one cannot convert to Judaism, one cannot expect to be called a Jew. We have the freedom to live the lifestyles that we want so a person can live like Jews if that's what they like but that doesn't make them Jewish.

A person from another country can come to the U.S. when they are small, they can love this country, they can know the history, obey all the laws, celebrate every American holiday. But until they go through the naturalization process, they will never, ever be American citizens.

[Henaynei]

WV25115 - your point is well made :)

Many of us are not all that concerned about being seen as Jewish by the Jewish community - we are quite aware, and even agree, that to BE Jewish one must convert ;)

There are many of us, however, who believe that the lifestyle *most* pleasing to G-d is one that obeys His Laws. We also believe that the sacrifice of Yeshua has paid the debt that every man incurs for imperfect obedience. Thus while we are not willing to deny Yeshua in order to achieve acceptance by the Jewish community neither we are not willing to surrender obedience to the Law to achieve acceptance by the Christian community :)

As for my family, we live as Jewish lifestyle in obedience to Torah as we can, given that we can not fully access the Jewish community. We place our trust in Yeshua's sacrifice to cover our imperfections as we continuously strive to ever improve.

While I would not reject acceptance by the Jewish community (if I could convert according to the Law without denying Yeshua) I do not expect it - my focus is whether or not I am pleasing, obeying and honoring G-d according to His standards. Thus I live as a Jewish person but an not Jewish :)

The bible identifies those folk such as we as G-d-fearers or Ger Toshav and Ger Tzaddik (depending on their level of observance to the Law, but without circumcision).

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Sephania]

To be considered a Jew, a person must convert to Judaism. To convert to Judaism, a person must renounce Jesus. If one believes in Jesus, one cannot convert to Judaism. If one cannot convert to Judaism, one cannot expect to be called a Jew. We have the freedom to live the lifestyles that we want so a person can live like Jews if that's what they like but that doesn't make them Jewish.

A person from another country can come to the U.S. when they are small, they can love this country, they can know the history, obey all the laws, celebrate every American holiday. But until they go through the naturalization process, they will never, ever be American citizens. To be considered a Jew by whom? That is the question. I am assuming here you are speaking of gentiles, because if you are born Jewish, I don't think you need to convert to be 'considered a Jew'.

Comparing people in the US or any other country to Jews is not compatable. There is a Jewish nation, Israel, there are Jews born all over the world, and are 'native' to the country born in, but still Jewish, wherever they move, they still remain Jewish. They don't even have to believe in the G-d of our fathers, they still are Jewish. There is even a name for those that are Jewish born in the Jewish state of Israel, Sabra.

[Henaynei]

Some definitions can be useful:

Usually precursant to conversion - ger toshav - settler convert, also called a ger ha-sha'ar (or proselyte of the gate, as in Exodus 20:10), was a resident alien given permission to live in land controlled by Jews if he or she did not worship other gods or engage in idolatry of any kind or blaspheme G-d. The ger toshav agreed in the presence of three scholars to follow these Jewish principles. In addition, a ger toshav had to observe the Noahide laws [seven laws considered binding on all humam beings, including prohibition of idolatry and murder].

ger tzadik - righteous proselyte, ger emet - true proselyte, ger ben b'rit - a proselyte who is a child of the covenant (Mosaic). This is one who converted for the sake of religious truth and not for any other motive. These folks dodn't just follow the principles of Judaism, but also its rituals and practices. They are mentioned in the 13th blessing of the Amidah [the major prayer in Jewish liturgy].

Were not converting or trying to convert: G-d-fearer - frequently kept the Sabbath, believed in monotheism and prophetic ethics, did not eat meat from a pig. However, they did not observe the other prescribed rituals of Judaism. They were not proselytes, just gentiles following many Jewish customs in a very wide variety of ways. The G-d-fearers, sometimes called semi- proselytes, included the magi of Persia, Cornelius and likely the early gentile followers of The Way.

[hadara]

If a Jewish family adopts a non-Jewish baby, that child would of course be part of the family in every way. He could have the same last name, eat the same foods, go to the same schools, read the same bible, etc., as the biological children of the family. But he would not be Jewish unless and until he goes through the conversion process.

I won't argue further, just wanted to mention this one aspect of adoption.


Forgive my stupidity, but how can a person get Jewish blood by circumcision?

hadara :)

[WV25115]

Forgive my stupidity, but how can a person get Jewish blood by circumcision?

hadara :) I have no idea what you are talking about.

[WV25115]

That is the question. I am assuming here you are speaking of gentiles, because if you are born Jewish, I don't think you need to convert to be 'considered a Jew'. Of course I did not mean a person born Jewish. I am talking about gentiles who want to be labeled as Jewish

Comparing people in the US or any other country to Jews is not compatable. There is a Jewish nation, Israel, there are Jews born all over the world, and are 'native' to the country born in, but still Jewish, wherever they move, they still remain Jewish. They don't even have to believe in the G-d of our fathers, they still are Jewish. There is even a name for those that are Jewish born in the Jewish state of Israel, Sabra. Any analogy breaks down but I think they are compatible. A person from any race, any country, any nationality, any language, any surname, can become an American citizen. A person born to Americans are already American citizens. A person from any race, any country, any nationality, any language, any surname, can become Jewish A person born to a Jewish mother is already Jewish.

[Tishri1]

There are many of us, however, who believe that the lifestyle *most* pleasing to G-d is one that obeys His Laws. We also believe that the sacrifice of Yeshua has paid the debt that every man incurs for imperfect obedience. Thus while we are not willing to deny Yeshua in order to achieve acceptance by the Jewish community neither we are not willing to surrender obedience to the Law to achieve acceptance by the Christian community :)...

...- my focus is whether or not I am pleasing, obeying and honoring G-d according to His standards. Thus I live as a Jewish person but an not Jewish :)

amen :amen::amen:a thousand times Henny!:wave:

[Tishri1]

Mod Hat On: http://www.jhm.nl/jhm/afbeeldingen/collectie/d012/012b082.jpgJust remember that while your opinion is very important, if you do not hold a Messianic Icon (yes, even in an [open] thread) you must be careful not to teach or answer questions, here....Please keep your "fellowship posts" free from teaching, answering questions, and debating, unless you are holding the Messianic Icon here...
Mod Hat Off:hug::groupray:

[WV25115]

I will stay out of your threads

[Henaynei]

I will stay out of your threadswhy do you take that so personally? that was directed at me as much as anyone - and I accept the correction as honorable..... it CERTAINLY was not designed to cause anyone to leave, but rather to ensure that we are allowed to stay ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ChavaK]

WV25115 -
There are many of us, however, who believe that the lifestyle *most* pleasing to G-d is one that obeys His Laws.
As for my family, we live as Jewish lifestyle in obedience to Torah as we can, given that we can not fully access the Jewish community.
- my focus is whether or not I am pleasing, obeying and honoring G-d according to His standards. Thus I live as a Jewish person but an not Jewish :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Let me preface my question by saying it is not meant to be offensive or belittling, but is sincere.
Since messianics do not accept the Oral Torah or rabbinical rulings, are they following a Jewish lifestyle to
be pleasing to HaShem, or to themselves? I have seen
responses that indicate messianics choose to follow rituals that they like to follow, not that it is mandated by HaShem. Given that, and that the "Jewish lifestyle" is based on rabbinical responsa/Oral Law, why would it be pleasing to G-d if it is something he does not require? Why would it be pleasing if much of the lifestyle is seen by messianics as being created by rabbis? Why not just follow the Torah laws and holidays, and not be involved in the Jewish rituals?
I guess to sum it up, why follow a lifestyle that is not
G-d's standards, according to messianics?
Again, this is meant as a sincere question...I would like
to understand this aspect of your belief. :)

[Henaynei]

Let me preface my question by saying it is not meant to be offensive or belittling, but is sincere. You have never given deliberate offence that I remember :hug:

Since Messianics do not accept the Oral Torah or rabbinical rulings, are they following a Jewish lifestyle to be pleasing to HaShem, or to themselves? for a great many, I would says they earnestly desire to please HaShem

I have seen responses that indicate Messianics choose to follow rituals that they like to follow, not that it is mandated by HaShem. that, sadly, is an accurate observation :( :cry: all too often

Given that, and that the "Jewish lifestyle" is based on rabbinical responsa/Oral Law, why would it be pleasing to G-d if it is something he does not require? the fact is that the "Jewish lifestyle" has changed organically over the 6000+ years since Sinai - this is reflected in the Oral Traditions, which are constantly evolving and changing as the community encounters new situations, new and old threats.

There IS no monolithic responsa that is accepted by all Jewish people, not even "orthodox" folk. This or that nuance is constantly being scrutinized and studied, and you well know that when you move from one Jewish community to another you will find that the Traditions there often vary quite significantly from those in the community from which you came.

Given the reaction of the non_Messianic community to the refusal of the Messianics to fight in the Bar Kokhba Rebellion and the shunning of the Messianics afterward it is not surprising and only human that the evolving responsa would not take into account and even ostracize the Messianic Community. Thus while many of us DO honor and seek to learn and obey both Torah and the Oral Traditions, we must draw a line concerning the Oral Traditions where they conflict with the Ketuvim Natzrim.

Because our ostracization from the main Jewish community meant our near annihilation we had no opportunity to develop our own community and our own responsa, as did the Chabad and others in somewhat similar situations.

When you look from the outside it is easy to see the fragments and disparities, but think on this. Almost without fail EVERYONE of the MJs who ARE seeking to be Torah observant have crawled, struggled and clawed to gain every scrap of knowledge they have attained. They have no teacher because the Jewish community rejects us out of hand and there are none within the MJ community who has yet attained the level of a Tzaddik.

In the Jewish way to thinking - what is the view toward the man who struggles to learn Torah/Traditions even when there is no hope of having a Tzaddik to teach him, yet he struggles on knowing he will never reach his goal of knowing but believing every step he is able to take, every morsel he is able to learn, every mitzvah he is able to achieve brings him yet a little closer?
Why would it be pleasing if much of the lifestyle is seen by Messianics as being created by rabbis? Why not just follow the Torah laws and holidays, and not be involved in the Jewish rituals? Because many of us DO recognize that there is much wisdom and guidance in the Oral Traditions, and that much of what is there does actually bring us closer to Torah and HaShem. - and is pleasing to Him.
I guess to sum it up, why follow a lifestyle that is not G-d's standards, according to Messianics?
Again, this is meant as a sincere question...I would like
to understand this aspect of your belief. :) There is no monolith in MJism either. Would that we had a beit din of Tzaddikim - but G-d has not seen fit to so bless us yet. There is no governing or guiding body, so to say "Messianics do/do not do" this or that is painting with too broad a brush.

Whilst those who do respect and seek to learn from and obey what they can from the Traditions are few compared to the "whole" or more "visible" Messianics, yet our number is slowly growing. And that , I believe, is of G-d. For those who DO chose our path and stick with it do so only because of our deep and abiding desire to obey and honor the G-d of Israel. It is a hard and lonely path, much more so than "main stream" MJism. :sigh: Trust me, no one sticks with it for kicks!

I hope I have been able to honor the intent of your honest inquiry.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ChavaK]

You have never given deliberate offence that I remember :hug:

for a great many, I would says they earnestly desire to please HaShem

that, sadly, is an accurate observation :( :cry: all too often

the fact is that the "Jewish lifestyle" has changed organically over the 6000+ years since Sinai - this is reflected in the Oral Traditions, which are constantly evolving and changing as the community encounters new situations, new and old threats.

There IS no monolithic responsa that is accepted by all Jewish people, not even "orthodox" folk. This or that nuance is constantly being scrutinized and studied, and you well know that when you move from one Jewish community to another you will find that the Traditions there often vary quite significantly from those in the community from which you came.

Given the reaction of the non_Messianic community to the refusal of the Messianics to fight in the Bar Kokhba Rebellion and the shunning of the Messianics afterward it is not surprising and only human that the evolving responsa would not take into account and even ostracize the Messianic Community. Thus while many of us DO honor and seek to learn and obey both Torah and the Oral Traditions, we must draw a line concerning the Oral Traditions where they conflict with the Ketuvim Natzrim.

Because our ostracization from the main Jewish community meant our near annihilation we had no opportunity to develop our own community and our own responsa, as did the Chabad and others in somewhat similar situations.

When you look from the outside it is easy to see the fragments and disparities, but think on this. Almost without fail EVERYONE of the MJs who ARE seeking to be Torah observant have crawled, struggled and clawed to gain every scrap of knowledge they have attained. They have no teacher because the Jewish community rejects us out of hand and there are none within the MJ community who has yet attained the level of a Tzaddik.

In the Jewish way to thinking - what is the view toward the man who struggles to learn Torah/Traditions even when there is no hope of having a Tzaddik to teach him, yet he struggles on knowing he will never reach his goal of knowing but believing every step he is able to take, every morsel he is able to learn, every mitzvah he is able to achieve brings him yet a little closer?
Because many of us DO recognize that there is much wisdom and guidance in the Oral Traditions, and that much of what is there does actually bring us closer to Torah and HaShem. - and is pleasing to Him.
There is no monolith in MJism either. Would that we had a beit din of Tzaddikim - but G-d has not seen fit to so bless us yet. There is no governing or guiding body, so to say "Messianics do/do not do" this or that is painting with too broad a brush.

Whilst those who do respect and seek to learn from and obey what they can from the Traditions are few compared to the "whole" or more "visible" Messianics, yet our number is slowly growing. And that , I believe, is of G-d. For those who DO chose our path and stick with it do so only because of our deep and abiding desire to obey and honor the G-d of Israel. It is a hard and lonely path, much more so than "main stream" MJism. :sigh: Trust me, no one sticks with it for kicks!

I hope I have been able to honor the intent of your honest inquiry.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
thank you for you reply....do you see a time soon when there will be a central governing body? Or is the
community too diverse at this point?

[Henaynei]

thank you for you reply....do you see a time soon when there will be a central governing body? Or is the
community too diverse at this point?may it be soon and in our day!!

yes, I see the sincere possibility. Scripture seems to indicate the possibly both our communities will eventually genuinely embrace each other again and together serve, honor and obey HaShem - if that were to happen the possibilities are thought provoking indeed...

[chunkofcoal]

thank you for you reply....do you see a time soon when there will be a central governing body? Or is the
community too diverse at this point?

Your question made me think of what we are taught in Proverbs -
Pro 6:6-8 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: (7) Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, (8) Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

[debi b]

I do see one difference though.. the liberal movements are not saying "G-d told us such and such", they are just using their own personal preferences to decide what halacha to follow or not. So I don't know
which is "worse"- someone who insists G-d told them
something personaly and therefore interprets things
that way, versus someone who is not using the Torah
at all as a reference point for decisions...

I can see a difference. One only represents themselves, the other claims to represent Adonai.....

[hadara]

How can a gentile become a Jew by circumcision?

If one can, then I guess the gentiles circumcised in heart are Jews, too?

As far as I'm concerned, no one can become Jewish.
You either have two Jewish parents or not.

hadara

[Talmidah]

I don't mean this question to sound rude or confrontational, I'm just now sure how to word it better.

Do you (general you, no one in particular) believe that Messianic groups should have the right do determine who is a Jew and who isn't a Jew?

[CovenantRay]

I don't mean this question to sound rude or confrontational, I'm just now sure how to word it better.

Do you (general you, no one in particular) believe that Messianic groups should have the right do determine who is a Jew and who isn't a Jew?
No.

[Henaynei]

I don't mean this question to sound rude or confrontational, I'm just not sure how to word it better.

Do you (general you, no one in particular) believe that Messianic groups should have the right do determine who is a Jew and who isn't a Jew? No.

[Tishri1]

I think that if you are part of God's family and he starts adopting alot of kids from the nations then you need to welcome them in and not make them feel "different"...:(

[Talmidah]

I think that if you are part of God's family and he starts adopting alot of kids from the nations then you need to welcome them in and not make them feel "different"...:( Tish, I think that you and I have had this conversation before and I think that there is always going to be the divide between us and our understanding of this issue.

I am aware of the whole adoption and grafted in belief, so I do understand what you're saying. At the same time, I hope that you can understand that Romans has no effect on our belief and halacha. You believe that is what Hashem is doing, and we don't. For us it is very simple and cut and dried---you are a Jew if you have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. That's it.

And if kids (and adults) from any nation want to convert and become Jewish, then of course they will be welcomed with open arms.

So, that part of the disagreement, I can understand. What I can't figure out still is people feeling like they are "less than" Jews or want to be considered Jews, when their beliefs don't line up with that of traditional Judaism. I see it along the lines of someone wanting be called a Christian, be accepted by all other Christians, while denying that Jesus ever existed, that baptism is not necessary and the being "cleansed of your sins" is not necessary. To some, that might make sense, but to me, it just doesn't.

[Liorah]

Tish, I think that you and I have had this conversation before and I think that there is always going to be the divide between us and our understanding of this issue.

I am aware of the whole adoption and grafted in belief, so I do understand what you're saying. At the same time, I hope that you can understand that Romans has no effect on our belief and halacha. You believe that is what Hashem is doing, and we don't. For us it is very simple and cut and dried---you are a Jew if you have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. That's it.

And if kids (and adults) from any nation want to convert and become Jewish, then of course they will be welcomed with open arms.

So, that part of the disagreement, I can understand. What I can't figure out still is people feeling like they are "less than" Jews or want to be considered Jews, when their beliefs don't line up with that of traditional Judaism. I see it along the lines of someone wanting be called a Christian, be accepted by all other Christians, while denying that Jesus ever existed, that baptism is not necessary and the being "cleansed of your sins" is not necessary. To some, that might make sense, but to me, it just doesn't.

Nods in agreement.

[ChavaK]

Your question made me think of what we are taught in Proverbs -
Pro 6:6-8 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: (7) Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, (8) Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
What roles do the shoftim, melachim, neviim then play?
Do not our societies as a rule require organization and
leadership?

[ChavaK]

retracted question

[ChavaK]

How can a gentile become a Jew by circumcision?

If one can, then I guess the gentiles circumcised in heart are Jews, too?

As far as I'm concerned, no one can become Jewish.
You either have two Jewish parents or not.

hadara

duplicate post deleted

[ChavaK]

What I can't figure out still is people feeling like they are "less than" Jews or want to be considered Jews, when their beliefs don't line up with that of traditional Judaism. I see it along the lines of someone wanting be called a Christian, be accepted by all other Christians, while denying that Jesus ever existed, that baptism is not necessary and the being "cleansed of your sins" is not necessary. To some, that might make sense, but to me, it just doesn't.

Same thing I am still trying to figure out, unsucessfully.
I've been reading peoples posts, trying to understand,
but I just don't get it....maybe it is something Jews
are just never going to comprehend..:)

[chunkofcoal]

For us it is very simple and cut and dried---you are a Jew if you have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. That's it.





Doesn't that cancel out the belief that all Jewish souls were at Sinai?:confused:

[chunkofcoal]

What roles do the shoftim, melachim, neviim then play?
Do not our societies as a rule require organization and
leadership?

My answering your question may be against the rules, but...


"Do not our societies as a rule require organization and leadership?"


Maybe a better question would be are we whipping ourselves around and rejecting G-d as our King like the people did in the days of Samuel the Prophet?

Or have we, as Messianics/Christians forgotten who is the head of the "church"?

Are we asking this question- ?
Exo 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

[Talmidah]

Doesn't that cancel out the belief that all Jewish souls were at Sinai?:confused: The souls of all converts were present at Sinai (shavuot 39a).

[Henaynei]

This was an interesting exercise ........



I do confess that I had to look up some definitions, so the results are unavoidably skewed (YES - I *know* I'm no Yeshivish - but I am right wing ;)), but I did answer according to my beliefs once I had the definitions....

The Orthodoxy Test (http://www.nerdtests.com/mq/take.php?id=200)

Left Wing Modern Orthodox: 18%
Right Wing Modern Orthodox: 44%
Left Wing Yeshivish/Chareidi: 77%
Right Wing Yeshivish/Chareidi: 60%

This means you're: Right Wing Yeshivish
What does it mean?
You know the difference between a Borsalino and a Stetson and your gedolim cards selection is almost complete.
You never ever wear jeans, period.
The gedolim are probably so proud of you.

This is embarrasing - I know I don't qualify in the least.....

[debi b]

Your question is "who is a Jew?", but I think what you are trying to figure out is "what is up with these folks and Torah?".

Speaking only for myself: I am not trying to be Jewish, I am not even trying to follow Judaism as it is defined by what you understand. I am trying to follow Yeshua and my attempts to embrace Torah are through the eyes of Yeshua's disciples. This will put us at odds as to what it means in terms of how to follow Torah.

Having said that, I would like to clarify that I personally do not tote the party line of how organized religion defines following Jesus. We are different animals ;)

A good example of this would be that I do not believe that the gospel is in opposition to the Temple.....

How I could go on :P I know that this is sooo borderline on response - I really don't mean to overstep.

[Tishri1]

No one can deny that the faith of our fathers was a Jewish faith, and God set it up. So in a way he gave Jews their identity, and asked His kids to be a light to the world, so THEY (the Nations or whoever would from the nations) could then take on HIS identity...We could go around and around this subject, but the main point here is this: most of us here are trying to identify with God's people because of our love for HIM and a heart felt understanding that we want to please HIM....So if no one else likes that then I guess they can write their complaints to Him too cuz that is who I know I feel accountable to ....I am just trying to do the will of my God who has called me out of the world to be his adopted child forever...Romans 8:14-16 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

[Henaynei]

I am not Jewish, I'm not trying to BE Jewish - I am trying to live a life in obedience to the Jewish G-d as I believe He is the One True and Living G-d, period.

I seek to Know His will through His instructions to us, all 66 books of them, and through the studies and writings of righteous and learned men of G-d who have dedicated their lives to seeking to know His will and Truth more deeply - it is true that in doing this I find that I live a life that is more and more discernibly "Jewish" - That is not me saying so, but Jewish people I have known for many years. I accept their statements as high complement, but I don't expect them or anyone else to declare that I *am* Jewish, I'm not and short of conversion I never can be.

To the degree that my life looks in anyway Jewish is the degree to which I (in my stunted studied striving) and they have intersected in our agreement and understanding of HaShem's will and instruction :)

B"H

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[ChavaK]

[quote=debi b]Your question is "who is a Jew?", but I think what you are trying to figure out is "what is up with these folks and Torah?".

Well, that is a side issue. My main question was and is who messianics consider Jewish. I started looking at
messianic forums because I was curious how many
were halachicaly Jewish. Since there is a small segment
of messianics who claim to be Jews when they are not
(at least according to halachah) I was interested in
the messianic definition of who was a Jew.
But I must admit, I still don't get the whole messianic/Torah thing, but I guess that really isn't
important to understand:)

[visionary]

IF there is a common identity, may it be because of the Holy Spirit's guidance. If you see us walk and talk and move and think "Jewish" then may it be because we are more like Him who is King of the Jews, who is our ruler of the kingdom that is coming, which we look forward to living and serving forever. If you think that following the Torah is "Jewish" then it is good, for God wishes all people to taste and see that His Kingdom is good. For me, it is godly to follow Torah, godly to live according to the Word, and a blessing upon my life to know and serve Him, but to think it is just a national 'jewish" custom is losing sight of who created such a nation to shine His light upon the world. The details of the walk in faith is between the Lord and your own heart. May the Lord continue to speak with you on this matter, and may you see that the Lord is good, that His law is made for perfecting the soul.

[Tishri1]

IF there is a common identity, may it be because of the Holy Spirit's guidance. If you see us walk and talk and move and think "Jewish" then may it be because we are more like Him who is King of the Jews, who is our ruler of the kingdom that is coming, which we look forward to living and serving forever. If you think that following the Torah is "Jewish" then it is good, for God wishes all people to taste and see that His Kingdom is good. For me, it is godly to follow Torah, godly to live according to the Word, and a blessing upon my life to know and serve Him, but to think it is just a national 'jewish" custom is losing sight of who created such a nation to shine His light upon the world. The details of the walk in faith is between the Lord and your own heart. May the Lord continue to speak with you on this matter, and may you see that the Lord is good, that His law is made for perfecting the soul.You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to visionary again.:wave:

[Talmidah]

I am not Jewish, I'm not trying to BE Jewish - I am trying to live a life in obedience to the Jewish G-d as I believe He is the One True and Living G-d, period.

That I can understand. I think where I get confused, as well as ChavaK it seems, is when people claim that they ARE in Jewish, when they don't have a Jewish mother or have undergone conversion.

I have met, especially recently, quite a few people in the messianic movement who claim that they are Jewish. They say they are bnei anusim, but since their families practiced catholicism for generations, there is nothing to back up their claim of being Jewish. Nobody knows how often or with whom intermarriage took place. They may very well have Jewish heritage, but they are not halachically Jewish. And they claim to be. Now, there are people in this type of situation who fully believe themselves to be Jewish and undergo conversion more as a 'formality'. But these people are messianic and so cannot undergo conversion anyway. Some have joined the spanish conversion classes at our synagogue and lie about their true beliefs and have been caught. Others simply say tell everyone they're Jewish.

Then at the messianic congregation I used to attend, there were people who claimed to be Jewish because they were grafted in. They had discovered their Jewish roots and so could now call themselves Jews, even as they went to Denny's after service on Saturday wearing a TALLIT!!

So, I'm not worried so much about people who are simply trying to live a more biblical life (except for the ones I mentioned above--the other patrons at Denny's will not know these are not Jews, so it certainly would appear that Jewish people would go into Denny's on Shabbat and buy treif food while wearing a tallit). I'm more curious about the people who either claim to be Jewish or complain about how Jews would accept them as Jewish, or complain about how they can't get a conversion since they believe in Jesus/Yeshua.

[Henaynei]

I've been told there is a phenomenon called "Jewish Envy" - it can be based on: perceived primacy because Judaism "came first," perceived special relationship with G-d, perceived esoteric knowledge of G-d, perceived social or economic benefit or protection. (Google "Jewish Envy" and you will get a hodgepodge of related discussions and resources)

FMM - such fallacious behavior is obnoxious and is both a danger and discredit to both communities (Jewish and Messianic) and Messiah. :eek: :cry: :mad:

I've been known to run interference in the Jewish community by cornering one of these ersatz Jews and confronting them as lovingly as possible but clearly and firmly - having a fella running around my local kosher deli with tzitzit hanging from belt loops, no head covering, ragged shorts and a tee shirt that says in big red letters "Yeshua Died for YOU" - not buying anything in the deli, telling the owners "no thank you I'm just looking" when it was painfully obvious that he was just doing the lazily obvious "I'm a walking billboard" stroll from aisle to aisle, - made ME nauseous and antsy and angry

folks like that remind me of a phrase I once heard - "he doesn't even mean well" :help:

sorry - but the memory of that encounter, not the only one of it's kind unfortunately, is very painful. Such behavior is the most successful inoculation there is today to prevent anyone from giving our views an honest hearing...:( :sigh:

[debi b]

I too have encountered these kinds of situations. I know one who is a UMJC leader with claims to lineage that well - what can I say?

I have seen others who once had a sweetness, and now are just arrogant as they have become comfortable with what they are doing. Was in a public setting once where this arrogance caused me to be embarrassed for those participating and those who were forced to watch.....

[debi b]

That I can understand. I think where I get confused, as well as ChavaK it seems, is when people claim that they ARE in Jewish, when they don't have a Jewish mother or have undergone conversion.



I think sometimes there are some who honestly don't know enough about Judaism and who do things that honestly in their enthusiasm are inappropriate.

People often pendulumn swing. When we view that on the outside it looks very different. Sometimes they swing back :)

[hadara]

I don't mean this question to sound rude or confrontational, I'm just now sure how to word it better.

Do you (general you, no one in particular) believe that Messianic groups should have the right do determine who is a Jew and who isn't a Jew?


Can I ask a question? How can man decide the fate of another man, or change his bloodline from gentile to Jew by cutting?

How can a man decide who a Jew is? How can the rabbis say that if you have a Jewish father, but no Jewish mother, then you aren't Jewish? What makes them think they have a right?

If I have a Indian mother, and a Jewish father, why can't I decide what to call myself? If I have a Jewish mother and an Indian father, why can't I decide to just consider myself Indian and join that culture?

Or why couldn't I call myself both uniquely Jew and North American Indian? Why does a rabbi get to have a say in who I am?

And if there are gentiles who are circumcised in heart, by faith in Yeshua, why can't they call themselves whatever they want to call them selves?

A scientist would take my blood test and see for himself who I am. He would see that I am a half-breed. But he cannot define me.

Scientifically speaking, I would be a pure Jew if both my parents were Jewish. No conversion could ever change that. But science cannot tell me what to call myself.

I am a human being. No one is better than me, or worse.


The messianic group leaders have no right to define anyone, as the rabbis have no right.

But if anyone wants to call themselves Jewish, let them, but let them know of the trials they may face. And if they can take it, then let them have the name.

hadara :)

[ShirChadash]

I see circumcision in the flesh (and its accompanying expectation of circumcision of the heart) to be the outward sign of an inward covenant/commitment/change/belonging just as Christians see baptism as an outward sign of an inward covenant/change/commitment/belonging.

It isn't the 'baptiser" who decides the fate of the one he baptises; it isn't the baptiser who changes the man's spiritual state by dunking him in the water, and it isn't the dunking itself that changes the man. I see the same statement of commitment (on the part of the parents, or the part of a convert, whichever) and intention to be one with G-d's people, to behave in certain ways, and declaration of faith-beliefs, in both of those two actions (one in Judaism and one in Christianity). An outward sign of an inward connection and commitment.

[ShirChadash]

How can a man decide who a Jew is? For the purposes of communion (as in connection/commitment/community, which is man-relational as opposed to G-d-relational, if you know what I am saying) those who are of a certain group certainly have the right (and would know best) who falls into the group and what, if any, criteria must be met in order for them to be considered part of the group.

How can the rabbis say that if you have a Jewish father, but no Jewish mother, then you aren't Jewish? What makes them think they have a right? Not only do they have the right, they have the responsibility.

If I have a Jewish mother and an Indian father, why can't I decide to just consider myself Indian and join that culture? You can. As far as I know, the rabbis and the Jewish people would have no concern over whether you call yourself something other than Jewish. But as regards calling yourself Jewish, there should be and are some expectations as to what that means.

And if there are gentiles who are circumcised in heart, by faith in Yeshua, why can't they call themselves whatever they want to call them selves? If I were to take on some beliefs in line with buddhism, would it be right for me (a white, german/bohemian/scottish/french-canadian woman) to pass myself off to others as an eastern indian woman? There are (as I believe Henaynei pointed out, at least -- or she has before if not in this thread) a few ways in which one can be considered Jewish -- it isn't limited to the religion or beliefs.

A scientist would take my blood test and see for himself who I am. He would see that I am a half-breed. But he cannot define me. And it isn't limited to simply bloodlines -- someday when I convert, which is my expectation, there will be one more white, german-bohemian-scottish-french-canadian Jewish woman in this world :)

Scientifically speaking, I would be a pure Jew if both my parents were Jewish. No conversion could ever change that. But science cannot tell me what to call myself. and it isn't limited to science, either.

I am a human being. No one is better than me, or worse. no one here said anyone was. We are unique and there's nothing wrong with that. And we are equally loved by our G-d.


The messianic group leaders have no right to define anyone, as the rabbis have no right. Messianic group leaders have no right to define non-Jews as Jews. No. I don't see why they cannot, however, come together in agreement as to what a messianic truly believes in order to be counted as a messianic. And Jewish rabbis most certainly do indeed have the right, and as I said the responsibility (to the whole of the Jewish people) to determine who is to be numbered as a Jew in the eyes of other Jews.

But if anyone wants to call themselves Jewish, let them, but let them know of the trials they may face. And if they can take it, then let them have the name.

hadara :) I can't agree with that. G-d made a distinction between Jews and non-Jews, though we are all human and may all be His children. His distinction between Jew and Gentile remains, just as there is a difference between men and women, slave and free... not in respect to His love and acceptance of us, but the differences in reality remain in effect nonetheless. To call myself an eastern indian because of the beliefs I choose to follow, were I to decide to practice some tenets of buddhism, would be a lie. It would claim a people and a heritage, and a full religion, I do not entirely share. So it is with deciding to follow only some tenets of Judaism but not all, and claiming to be Jewish if one is not, according to Judaism's followers themselves.

seems to me, anyway.

If you want to be a Jew and your beliefs do not discount Judaism's tenets, then it's not like anyone would stand in the way of your converting should you desire to. There are many, many people whose fathers are jewish but not their mothers, who have gone through formal conversion.

[Tishri1]

you mentioned sooooo many groups that claim to be Jewish and yet are not, some have no Jewish blood, some do but some are not halachic, and some are Messianic....none of these were good enough to be Jews:doh:That I can understand. I think where I get confused, as well as ChavaK it seems, is when people claim that they ARE in Jewish, when they don't have a Jewish mother or have undergone conversion.

I have met, especially recently, quite a few people in the messianic movement who claim that they are Jewish. They say they are bnei anusim, but since their families practiced catholicism for generations, there is nothing to back up their claim of being Jewish. Nobody knows how often or with whom intermarriage took place. They may very well have Jewish heritage, but they are not halachically Jewish. And they claim to be. Now, there are people in this type of situation who fully believe themselves to be Jewish and undergo conversion more as a 'formality'. But these people are messianic and so cannot undergo conversion anyway. Some have joined the spanish conversion classes at our synagogue and lie about their true beliefs and have been caught. Others simply say tell everyone they're Jewish.

Then at the messianic congregation I used to attend, there were people who claimed to be Jewish because they were grafted in. They had discovered their Jewish roots and so could now call themselves Jews, even as they went to Denny's after service on Saturday wearing a TALLIT!!

So, I'm not worried so much about people who are simply trying to live a more biblical life (except for the ones I mentioned above--the other patrons at Denny's will not know these are not Jews, so it certainly would appear that Jewish people would go into Denny's on Shabbat and buy treif food while wearing a tallit). I'm more curious about the people who either claim to be Jewish or complain about how Jews would accept them as Jewish, or complain about how they can't get a conversion since they believe in Jesus/Yeshua.

[Talmidah]

you mentioned sooooo many groups that claim to be Jewish and yet are not, some have no Jewish blood, some do but some are not halachic, and some are Messianic....none of these were good enough to be Jews:doh:

Tishri????? What???? Please, please tell where I have ever stated that anyone is not "good enough" to be a Jew. Please.

I certainly apologize to you and to anyone reading my posts if I have given that impression. That is the farthest thing from my mind. It has nothing to do with who is 'good enough' or 'not good enough'.

Yes, I mentioned many groups and what they have in common is that they are not halachically Jewish. And every single one of them can become a Jew if that is what they want and every single one of them is just as "good" as any Jew, just as they are.

But I implore to be told why someone would want so badly to "be a Jew", when their beliefs do not line up with what Judaism entails? Can I become a Muslim if I don't believe that Mohammed was the prophet of Allah? Of course not. In order to be called a member of a particular group, your beliefs should fall in line with the beliefs of the group and you should follow whatever procedure is in place for joining that group.

But as Zemirah stated, "If you want to be a Jew and your beliefs do not discount Judaism's tenets, then it's not like anyone would stand in the way of your converting should you desire to. "

[Tishri1]

Can I ask a question? How can man decide the fate of another man, or change his bloodline from gentile to Jew by cutting?

How can a man decide who a Jew is? How can the rabbis say that if you have a Jewish father, but no Jewish mother, then you aren't Jewish? What makes them think they have a right?

If I have a Indian mother, and a Jewish father, why can't I decide what to call myself? If I have a Jewish mother and an Indian father, why can't I decide to just consider myself Indian and join that culture?

Or why couldn't I call myself both uniquely Jew and North American Indian? Why does a rabbi get to have a say in who I am?

And if there are gentiles who are circumcised in heart, by faith in Yeshua, why can't they call themselves whatever they want to call them selves?

A scientist would take my blood test and see for himself who I am. He would see that I am a half-breed. But he cannot define me.

Scientifically speaking, I would be a pure Jew if both my parents were Jewish. No conversion could ever change that. But science cannot tell me what to call myself.

I am a human being. No one is better than me, or worse.


The messianic group leaders have no right to define anyone, as the rabbis have no right.

But if anyone wants to call themselves Jewish, let them, but let them know of the trials they may face. And if they can take it, then let them have the name.

hadara :) You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hadara again.

I dont call myself Jewish (probably never will) because I dont want to have to live up to any Man's opinion of what that is my whole life...I belong to ABBA that's good enough...BUT I am apart of this thing called Messianic Judiasm and I pray that the Messianics dont ever become so .... whatever :doh:I dont even know what to call this kind of judgement:sigh:

PS I still love my Jewish friends here who are only agreeing with their leaders in Judiasm but will ALWAYS be sad about this issue...

I'm never gonna be happy about this till ABBA sets it right but I do love you guys and that wont change one bit:(:hug:

[Wags]

I am more of the Reform opinion that if either parent is Jewish and the person in question was rasised Jewish (messianic or otherwise) than they may rightfully claim their jewish ETHNICITY.

It bugs me to see gentiles who are "grafted-in"and those that think they might have Jewish heritage proclaiming themselves to be Jewish. I think it does more harm than good .

I believe that Torah living is for all believers, but it doesn't change your DNA - a leopard can't change its spots.

[AlanGurvey]

Can I ask a question? How can man decide the fate of another man, or change his bloodline from gentile to Jew by cutting?

G-d wills it by giving the convert a Jewish Neshoma (sp?) , or Jewish Soul.

How can a man decide who a Jew is? How can the rabbis say that if you have a Jewish father, but no Jewish mother, then you aren't Jewish? What makes them think they have a right?


Many people have asked me why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, when in all other things (tribal affiliation, priestly status, royalty, etc.) we use patrilineal descent. The Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.


If I have a Indian mother, and a Jewish father, why can't I decide what to call myself? If I have a Jewish mother and an Indian father, why can't I decide to just consider myself Indian and join that culture?


That is a reform view

Or why couldn't I call myself both uniquely Jew and North American Indian? Why does a rabbi get to have a say in who I am?



And if there are gentiles who are circumcised in heart, by faith in Yeshua, why can't they call themselves whatever they want to call them selves?

Because they don't have the lineage. However if the Jewish Soul enters, then they can call them selves Jews.

A scientist would take my blood test and see for himself who I am. He would see that I am a half-breed. But he cannot define me.

???????

Scientifically speaking, I would be a pure Jew if both my parents were Jewish. No conversion could ever change that. But science cannot tell me what to call myself.

Ok, but science isnt the question here

I am a human being. No one is better than me, or worse.
Jews are not better than non Jews, Africans aren't better than latinos, all humanity is equal, no one is better than on another, that is a Jewish idea.

The messianic group leaders have no right to define anyone, as the rabbis have no right.

That is your opinion, as one who is a follower of Chabad, I beg to differ, however since the MJ movement disregards alot of the oral torah (from what I have experianced, may not be the case across the board, however due to convictions, i will find it pointless to argue with you

But if anyone wants to call themselves Jewish, let them,
Calling myself an astronaut doesn't make me one
but let them know of the trials they may face. And if they can take it, then let them have the name.

The trial for conversion is hardy enough :)

[Talmidah]

OK Tishri. I'm sorry for making you sad. That certainly wasn't my intention. We've discussed this before and we always end up at the same place. I believe that a person is Jewish if they have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. You believe that anyone can call themselves Jewish if they want to, whether or not they have a Jewish mother or go through conversion. I am just sorry if my words were rude or hurt your feelings.

[ChavaK]

[quote=Wags]I am more of the Reform opinion that if either parent is Jewish and the person in question was rasised Jewish (messianic or otherwise) than they may rightfully claim their jewish ETHNICITY.

The Reform would not accept someone with a Jewish father who was raised messianic as being a Jew.
They hold some crazy positions, but for this they toe
the traditional line:)

It bugs me to see gentiles who are "grafted-in"and those that think they might have Jewish heritage proclaiming themselves to be Jewish. I think it does more harm than good . :thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

OK Tishri. I'm sorry for making you sad. That certainly wasn't my intention. We've discussed this before and we always end up at the same place. I believe that a person is Jewish if they have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. You believe that anyone can call themselves Jewish if they want to, whether or not they have a Jewish mother or go through conversion. I am just sorry if my words were rude or hurt your feelings.

I second that...I hope none of our postings have caused
hurt feelings or discomfort:)

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT ON ...what standards do messianics have for accepting someone as Jewish?...OK then, I think this thread has run it's course ...The question was answered by many Messianics here and I didnt see us providing any thing new today...The variety of answers seem to be the same as they were yesterday....I hope ChavaK is happy with her answers from all the posts she has seen so far :pray:...I will let this thread stay till morning but then I will probably close it, as we will end up just beating a dead horse from now on(a definate nono in the Torah;))so speak up now (and with in the rules:thumbsup:) or forever hold your peace...

MOD HAT OFF
:yawn: good nite family... sweet dreams:sleep:

[Talmidah]

Again I apologize if I've broken the rules and repeated myself too much. I will bow out of this thread so perhaps it will be allowed to remain open and maybe messianics can supply input more agreeable with their own views.

Again, I'm sorry to anybody that I've offended and regret any hurt that I've caused anyone.

Shalom :wave:

[Tishri1]

OK Tishri. I'm sorry for making you sad. That certainly wasn't my intention. We've discussed this before and we always end up at the same place. I believe that a person is Jewish if they have a Jewish mother or a halachic conversion. You believe that anyone can call themselves Jewish if they want to, whether or not they have a Jewish mother or go through conversion. I am just sorry if my words were rude or hurt your feelings.Know that I love you Tal, and we knew where we stood on this subject even a year ago so thats ok......You dont make me sad,just the subject does:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

[Tishri1]

If I close it it is only to protect you guys:groupray:, and seriously we did go on for quite a few days here, it was a good thread:hug:Again I apologize if I've broken the rules and repeated myself too much. I will bow out of this thread so perhaps it will be allowed to remain open and maybe messianics can supply input more agreeable with their own views.

Again, I'm sorry to anybody that I've offended and regret any hurt that I've caused anyone.

Shalom :wave:

[ChavaK]

:) [quote=Tishri1]MOD HAT ONOK then, I think this thread has run it's course ...The question was answered by many Messianics here and I didnt see us providing any thing new today...The variety of answers seem to be the same as they were yesterday....I hope ChavaK is happy with her answers from all the posts she has seen so far :pray:...I will let this thread stay till morning but then I will probably close it, as we will end up just beating a dead horse from now on(a definate nono in the Torah;))so speak up now (and with in the rules:thumbsup:) or forever hold your peace...

MOD HAT OFF


Ah, your gonna close it?:( why close it if people are still interested in posting:confused: I have enjoyed reading all the responses
and interchange of ideas...thanks to
all who have posted:)

[ChavaK]

If I close it it is only to protect you guys:groupray:, and seriously we did go on for quite a few days here, it was a good thread:hug:

If I may ask, protect us how?
thanks:)

[Tishri1]

If I may ask, protect us how?
thanks:)sure, well I can see that this thread has pretty much done it's job, meaning it's answered your question (quite emotionally and passionately by some in fact;) )but now I can see what usually happens at some point in all really great threads; the rehashing and debating of beliefs which goes beyond what is allowed in any congregational forum...I can do something now to prevent the violation of CF rules in this thread, or let the violations begin and then close it the hard way....But I dont see the point of waiting for it to get that far and have good people get in trouble, especially since we have an answer to the question and now we just seem to be beating a dead horse here...


I'll keep it open though just so you all can prove me wrong;)^_^

:hug:

[ChavaK]

sure, well I can see that this thread has pretty much done it's job, meaning it's answered your question (quite emotionally and passionately by some in fact;) )but now I can see what usually happens at some point in all really great threads; the rehashing and debating of beliefs which goes beyond what is allowed in any congregational forum...I can do something now to prevent the violation of CF rules in this thread, or let the violations begin and then close it the hard way....But I dont see the point of waiting for it to get that far and have good people get in trouble, especially since we have an answer to the question and now we just seem to be beating a dead horse here...


I'll keep it open though just so you all can prove me wrong;)^_^

:hug:

Well, I hope I haven't been one of the offenders :)
If so, many apologies....my posts are never meant
to be offensiveor insulting but I could see how someone
could misinterpret or look at a response through a
different prism than what I meant...
thanks for keeping the thread open though:clap:

[ContraMundum]

Would individual congregations establish a standard for this? Are any of the leading messianic organizations planning a responsa that addresses this? Or is it pretty much a non-issue among the Messianic movement at large?

Talmidah,

The simple fact is that for a Messianic congregation to segregate or make barriers between those with faith in Christ based on their ethnic heritage would be a gross violation of Christian doctrine and be an act of outrageous heresy. Already, many "Messianic" congregations have gone too far in this and put themselves right out of orthodox Christianity- but they are a small, very small in fact, minority.

Most decent Messianic congregations- and they are in the majority- are far more orthodox, in my experience, accepting with love and compassion all those who come to their doors, regardless of their past, their ethnicity, their traditions or their race. All are equally acceptable to God by their faith in His salvation freely given to them. There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew, and to begin to draw such distinctions would be nothing short of disgraceful heresy.

One of the best things about the Christian faith is that it truly is the salvation for the whole world- it accepts all people as they are. There will be no Arab-Israeli conflict in Heaven. There will be no Hutu or Titsi. There wil be no black or white. There will be no ethnic cleansing. There will only be God's redeemed.

I guess what I am saying is that any congregation that ever tried to draws rules or lines of distinction between "who is a Jew" or who is not amongst the believers would immediately be declared heretical.

[ContraMundum]

Interesting thread.

I must admit, when I saw the title, I thought "here we go....the 'orthodox' wanna start on their 'who is a Jew' trip again". I must admit that this one topic really bugs me, because the Orthodox, God bless 'em, get so hung up on this pet topic that it inevitably ends up dividing everybody- Gentiles and Jews alike.

For example, in some parts of Israel Sephardic people are the victims of prejudice from other Jews, mainly from extremist orthodox Ashkenaz. They are sometimes considered "second class" citizens of sorts. What is the result? Well, then the Sephardi from Spain and Portugal distance themselves from their brothers from other parts of the world, just to crawl up to the extremists and be "accepted".Extremists don't accept Sephardi, and then Sephardim divide on their behalf. Division one. Meanwhile, some even more extreme Ashkenazi Orthodox still don't think much of the Sephardim, even though they accept the Sephardic language as the standard for educational institutions, and no matter what, they won't sell a house in their neighbourhood to a Sephardic Jew. Considering Maimonides was Sepharidic, this all seems rather hypocritical.

Then you have the debate between the Reform and the Orthodox about "who is a Jew", not to mention that the government of Israel is caught in the middle of this endless genetic rhetoric and has to decide who is a Jew in order to work out its own immigration affiars. My answer is simple- if Hitler would have put you in the gas chambers for being a Jew then that's good enough for Israel. He didn't consult the Orthodox. He knew he didn't need to.

The answer is to "keep it real" and keep the extremists out of the debate as much as possible, IMHO. Because 99% of those ethnically Jews in the world accept each other without any debate whatsoever, we have to look for the deeper, more subtle reason as to why people need to know "who is a Jew" and who isn't. The answer is so ugly it's unbearable.

[Henaynei]

it is every bit as racist to believe/think/say/act that being Jewish is better than, just as it is racist to believe/think/say/act that being Jewish is less than ....I am a human being. No one is better than me, or worse. and it is this belief (the better than and the less than) that has lead to such horrors and tragedy being perpetrated upon the Jewish people.

Zemmy is right - the Jewish people, just as the American Indian people and the British people and the French and the Jordanians and the Palestinians and the Iraqi and the Americans and the............... have a right AND an obligation to say who does and does not qualify to claim citizenship - it is a crazy twisted world that has tried to teach us that this is wrong and this teaching is l