Why are we here?

[christianmomof3]

I am asking this of the different denominational groups to see what the answers are for each group.
What do Baptists view God's Purpose as being?
What is the main idea of the Bible?
What is His purpose for man? What is God's purpose for Himself?
Thank you, Dana

[Daniels]

I Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation,
a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him
who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[Andyman_1970]

I think alot of Baptists view their purpose here on earth is to tell as many people about Jesus so they can in turn get saved and go to Heaven.

IMO this is a very limited view of what we as followers of Jesus should be doing as His followers here on earth right now.

[trinityisunity]

I think alot of Baptists view their purpose here on earth is to tell as many people about Jesus so they can in turn get saved and go to Heaven.

IMO this is a very limited view of what we as followers of Jesus should be doing as His followers here on earth right now.


Yes, not only tell people about Jesus but also to show people Jesus; by loving one another as Jesus commanded us to and also to love our neighbour as ourselves. Sadly today we do not see enough love over the entire christian belief divisions let alone even in a single church. How miserably we seem to be at carrying out this commandment. We are here to be salt to season earth with our love for each other and non-christians, when we do not show love our salt is useless.

[Phileoeklogos]

I am asking this of the different denominational groups to see what the answers are for each group.
What do Baptists view God's Purpose as being?
What is the main idea of the Bible?
What is His purpose for man? What is God's purpose for Himself?
Thank you, Dana

God's purpose for being and God's pupose for Himself are beyond the ability of any man to know,

Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.


The main idea of the Bible, is not an idea, but a person, Jesus Christ

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

God's purpose for man, Bro. Daniels has posted my favorite verse to illustrate man's purpose, " to shew forth His praise. I'd also like to misquote Jonathan Edwards and say that the purpose of man is to know God and enjoy Him forever :bow:& :D

[christianmomof3]

The main idea of the Bible, is not an idea, but a person, Jesus Christ

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,



Excellent answer and verse! I totally agree!

[christianmomof3]

I think alot of Baptists view their purpose here on earth is to tell as many people about Jesus so they can in turn get saved and go to Heaven.

IMO this is a very limited view of what we as followers of Jesus should be doing as His followers here on earth right now.
I agree - this is not the entire purpose of God for man. Although leading people to be saved is certainly an important part of what we should do, it does not stop there.

[christianmomof3]

Yes, not only tell people about Jesus but also to show people Jesus; by loving one another as Jesus commanded us to and also to love our neighbour as ourselves. We are here to be salt to season earth with our love for each other and non-christians, when we do not show love our salt is useless.
We do need to love one another with God's love. :hug:
I thought that the purpose of salt was to preserve and kill germs and that as the salt of the earth, we help kill the satanic germs and help keep the world from spoiling and being corrupted just as salt keeps food from spoiling - or something like that.

[ZiSunka]

I am asking this of the different denominational groups to see what the answers are for each group.
What do Baptists view God's Purpose as being?
What is the main idea of the Bible?
What is His purpose for man? What is God's purpose for Himself?
Thank you, Dana

God's purpose?

That's a question too big for human beings!

If we got to write God's mission statement, I wonder what we would come up with:

"The purpose of God is to provide for mankind's every desire, to give lavishly to everyone who asks for anything, to keep what pleasures me legal but to keep anything that might interfere with my pleasure illegal, to entertain us with wonderous works of nature that are completely harmless to humans, and to make earth exactly like we imagine heaven to be."

Fortunately, God's purpose isn't up to humans. I don't know that God has a mission statement, and I can't imagine what it would be if he had one.

[Daniels]

Is
43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my
praise.

[ZiSunka]

Is


Doesn't really say anything about why God exists, though, which is what the OP was asking about.

[RajunCajun86]

double post

[RajunCajun86]

What do Baptists view God's Purpose as being? He is self sufficient and to bring glory to His nameWhat is the main idea of the Bible?God bringing glory to His name by bringing all people to Himself (the Bible points to Jesus, Jesus made it possible for all people to come to know God and therefore glorify Him)
What is His purpose for man?our purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever
What is God's purpose for Himself?to bring glory to Himself

[christianmomof3]

He is self sufficient and to bring glory to His nameGod bringing glory to His name by bringing all people to Himself (the Bible points to Jesus, Jesus made it possible for all people to come to know God and therefore glorify Him)
our purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever
to bring glory to Himself
How do we bring glory to God?

[RajunCajun86]

How do we bring glory to God?the most glorifying thing we can do is come to know Him, and then guide others to know Him as well

[Andyman_1970]

the most glorifying thing we can do is come to know Him, and then guide others to know Him as well

I would argue when we live as He created us to live we bring Him glory.

IMO the emphasis that our sole purpose (or the most important one) is telling others about Jesus rather than living the kind of life that brings Heaven to earth (Matthew 6:10) misses the whole point of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and to strive to live a life of a disciple of His.

[christianmomof3]

I would argue when we live as He created us to live we bring Him glory.

IMO the emphasis that our sole purpose (or the most important one) is telling others about Jesus rather than living the kind of life that brings Heaven to earth (Matthew 6:10) misses the whole point of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and to strive to live a life of a disciple of His.

What kind of living brings heaven to earth and how is it done and by whom?

[RajunCajun86]

live a life of a disciple of His.but wouldn't this be to tell others about Him and urge them to know Him, this is what the disciples did and this is what He commanded us to do in His final words to them?!

[Andyman_1970]

but wouldn't this be to tell others about Him and urge them to know Him, this is what the disciples did and this is what He commanded us to do in His final words to them?!

He uged them to "make disciples", in it's 1st century context a beleiver and a disciple are 2 different things.

Is telling others the only thing the disciples did?

[RajunCajun86]

sorry that i did not make myself clear, my response to your statement that we should "live a life of a disciple of His." is that what it means to be disciple of His is this:
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28
with that in mind what brings glory to God is that we:
Go...make disciples of all ethinic groups...baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...then repeat

[Andyman_1970]

What kind of living brings heaven to earth and how is it done and by whom?

What kind of living do you think brings Heaven to earth? What are the pictures of Heaven we are given in the Scriptures (Isaiah 65, Revelation 21 & 22 – which reference Genesis 1 & 2)?

Now there are 2 basic “worldviews” among evangelical Christians today in the US with regards to God’s purpose for the lives of His people. The first, understands the world to be a terrible place, one in which we as Christians are “trapped” and will escape from one day (as if from a sinking ship). The overriding “mission” (or purpose for this discussion) from this worldview is to tell as many people as possible about Jesus (not a bad thing mind you) so they can get saved. It’s very much a “get as many people as possible into the lifeboat because the ship is going down” mindset. One characteristic of this worldview is one of separation, which has lead to things like Christians schools and Christians living in what amounts to ghetto’s.

The other worldview understands that God has been and continues to be at work in the world and desires more than anything to reconcile all creation back to how He intended it to be. This worldview understands that while creation is infected with the sin that Adam brought into it, it is not terrible, but was originally “good” as God created it. I liken this to an apple that has been cut into slices and sits out too long. The apple is good, but because sin affected all creation brown/rot begins to work on the apple as soon as it’s cut. One day when God reconciles creation to how He intends it to be there will be no rot or “brown” on the apple. This worldview sees it’s purpose here on earth to live the kind of lives that God created us to live that this would result, even in small ways, of Heaven coming to earth. This world view, with reference to Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 & 22 sees it’s purpose to relieve suffering/oppression, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give water to the thirsty, care for the widow, orphan and alien (Matthew 25 and Deuteronomy 14). They understand that God is at work in His creation right now, and they desire to work with Him to make His kingdom a reality wherever they are, understanding that His kingdom will only come to completion upon the Messiah’s return.

One worldview was the worldview of the authors of the Scriptures, and one is relatively new in it’s creation. IMO many Christians miss the point of their purpose here on earth right now because of confusion / ignorance of these two worldviews.

[Andyman_1970]

sorry that i did not make myself clear, my response to your statement that we should "live a life of a disciple of His." is that what it means to be disciple of His is this:
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28
with that in mind what brings glory to God is that we:
Go...make disciples of all ethinic groups...baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...then repeat

In it’s contextual understanding, this is but a small part of what it means to be a disciple. A disciple is someone who’s whole life is centered around the teachings and life of their rabbi, in a Christians case that rabbi is Jesus. Not only are we to know what Jesus knew, but we are to do what Jesus did, that is what a disciple is. Jesus speaks actually very little in His teachings about “how to get to Heaven” He speaks much more about how to live in harmony with God here and now and how to live in harmony with others here and now…….Jesus says the world will know He is real by our unconditional love for one another.

I’m not against sharing the Gospel, by no means. I do however think evangelical Christians have missed the point and made that the sole emphasis of what a follower of Jesus is to do here on earth right now rather than living a life of a disciple.

[Andyman_1970]

Matthew 28
with that in mind what brings glory to God is that we:
Go...make disciples of all ethinic groups...baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you...then repeat

May I ask how many disciples you have?

[RajunCajun86]

May I ask how many disciples you have?
what would your reason be for asking me this question

[Andyman_1970]

^ i don't know that those are all inclusive, but good descriptions non the less

Oh they are certainly not all inclusive or exhaustive, just thumbnail sketches of the 2 major worldviews I have seen in evangelical Christianity.

[Andyman_1970]

what would your reason be for asking me this question


Just curious, not meant to be mean spirited or pointed. You cited Matthew 28 and seemed to indicate that is the "core" of what a Christians purpose here is.

I was also trying to make a point, that we misunderstand that passage, we ourselves should be living the kind of lives where people can follow us and it be no different than if they were following Jesus as if He was right here today in our midst.

[RajunCajun86]

Not only are we to know what Jesus knew, but we are to do what Jesus did, that is what a disciple is. Jesus speaks actually very little in His teachings about “how to get to Heaven” He speaks much more about how to live in harmony with God (there is no harmony with a holy God without the forgiveness of sins, which is where we come in and tell them how they be in "harmony" with God) here and now and how to live in harmony with others here and now…….Jesus says the world will know He is real by our unconditional love (yes but not with a love that we posses but a love that is given to us by being inhabited by the Holy Spirit which we receive after we have accepted salvation, which is where we come in and tell them about how they can know about His unconditional love) for one another.

[Andyman_1970]

Not only are we to know what Jesus knew, but we are to do what Jesus did, that is what a disciple is. Jesus speaks actually very little in His teachings about “how to get to Heaven” He speaks much more about how to live in harmony with God (there is no harmony with a holy God without the forgiveness of sins, which is where we come in and tell them how they be in "harmony" with God)

I don’t disagree with you. That harmony also depends on how one lives after one says “yes” to Jesus.

here and now and how to live in harmony with others here and now…….Jesus says the world will know He is real by our unconditional love (yes but not with a love that we posses but a love that is given to us by being inhabited by the Holy Spirit which we receive after we have accepted salvation, which is where we come in and tell them about how they can know about His unconditional love) for one another.

I don’t disagree with you here either. Keep in mind, Jesus said the world will know He is real by how they see us unconditionally love one another, He doesn’t say they will know He is real because we have the Romans road memorized………for the world to know He is real they need to see us in action out in the world loving others (1 John 4:20) not just telling them about Jesus with a life that doesn’t support what we are telling people.

[RajunCajun86]

not just telling them about Jesus with a life that doesn’t support what we are telling people.and also not living your life without telling people? it sounds as though you are trying to take a passive approach to spreading His Good News by stating that if you are living "Christ-like" you don't have to actually tell anyone or go anywhere, that you are exempt from that, while Jesus traveled and forgave those from all different places he didn't stay in Nazareth and live a good life, he went to people and "introduced" them to the God that wants to live inside of them, give them unconditional love and be at harmony with them, this is what it means to be Christ-like and bring glory to Him, this is what Jesus did

[Andyman_1970]

and also not living your life without telling people? it sounds as though you are trying to take a passive approach to spreading His Good News…

You realize that the “Good News” of Jesus’ teachings is not just limited to getting nice people into Heaven?

I’ve never advocated not telling people about how they can be reconciled with the Creator God, I believe you are making an assumption here.

I am questioning the traditional “door knocking” approach as presenting a Gospel that is irrelevant to people. Where does Jesus say that people will know He is real by sharing the Romans road? Jesus’ little brother says you can talk about faith all you want but until you get out and do it (he specifically references taking care of people in need in that passage) your faith is dead.

by stating that if you are living "Christ-like" you don't have to actually tell anyone or go anywhere,….

Actually quite the opposite. I try to live out 1 Peter 3:15-16 “be prepared to give a reason for the hope you have”, I try to live such a radical life of generosity (especially to people who don’t deserve it) and taking care of those in need that they ask why I’m doing what I’m doing and I tell them…………………I believe in evangelizing training they call this “an open door”.

that you are exempt from that….

I never asserted that, I would respectfully ask you not to make assumptions about what I believe.

he went to people and "introduced" them to the God that wants to live inside of them, give them unconditional love and be at harmony with them, this is what it means to be Christ-like and bring glory to Him, this is what Jesus did

If, and I say if (I don’t want to make assumptions now do I…….LOL) you think all Jesus did was go around and tell people how to get saved, I would respectfully suggest you re read the Gospels in their historical and cultural context. To be a disciple in it’s 1st century understanding means to center your life around the teachings of Jesus with the intent of doing what Jesus did. Of all the teachings we have in the Gospels, Jesus teaches very little (He does though, please don’t get me wrong) on how to get to Heaven, He spends a lot of time teaching on how to live in harmony with one other (the Sermon on the Mount is almost exclusively devoted to this).

To clarify, I believe it is important to tell people about Jesus, that may or may no take the form of words, IMO it’s harder to be Jesus everyday to say your co-workers day in and day out through your actions than it is to go door to door and share Romans road with a stranger for 5 minutes. IMO being Jesus day in and day out to those you are in contact with continually makes more of an impact than a hit and miss door knocking trip.

[christianmomof3]

What kind of living do you think brings Heaven to earth? What are the pictures of Heaven we are given in the Scriptures (Isaiah 65, Revelation 21 & 22 – which reference Genesis 1 & 2)?

Now there are 2 basic “worldviews” among evangelical Christians today in the US with regards to God’s purpose for the lives of His people. The first, understands the world to be a terrible place, one in which we as Christians are “trapped” and will escape from one day (as if from a sinking ship). The overriding “mission” (or purpose for this discussion) from this worldview is to tell as many people as possible about Jesus (not a bad thing mind you) so they can get saved. It’s very much a “get as many people as possible into the lifeboat because the ship is going down” mindset. One characteristic of this worldview is one of separation, which has lead to things like Christians schools and Christians living in what amounts to ghetto’s.

The other worldview understands that God has been and continues to be at work in the world and desires more than anything to reconcile all creation back to how He intended it to be. This worldview understands that while creation is infected with the sin that Adam brought into it, it is not terrible, but was originally “good” as God created it. I liken this to an apple that has been cut into slices and sits out too long. The apple is good, but because sin affected all creation brown/rot begins to work on the apple as soon as it’s cut. One day when God reconciles creation to how He intends it to be there will be no rot or “brown” on the apple. This worldview sees it’s purpose here on earth to live the kind of lives that God created us to live that this would result, even in small ways, of Heaven coming to earth. This world view, with reference to Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 & 22 sees it’s purpose to relieve suffering/oppression, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give water to the thirsty, care for the widow, orphan and alien (Matthew 25 and Deuteronomy 14). They understand that God is at work in His creation right now, and they desire to work with Him to make His kingdom a reality wherever they are, understanding that His kingdom will only come to completion upon the Messiah’s return.

One worldview was the worldview of the authors of the Scriptures, and one is relatively new in it’s creation. IMO many Christians miss the point of their purpose here on earth right now because of confusion / ignorance of these two worldviews.
Those are interesting concepts and I am sure that many people see one or the other of those as being correct.
I personally agree that the first view is shallow - not incorrect, but not complete. The second view again is not entirely incorrect - yes we should care for others in Christ BUT the Lord's purpose is NOT to make the world a better place. He is going to wipe it out and replace it with a new heaven and new earth.

[Andyman_1970]

Christ BUT the Lord's purpose is NOT to make the world a better place. He is going to wipe it out and replace it with a new heaven and new earth.

Respectfully the concept that we shouldn't try to make creation here and now as close to Heaven as we can because God's going to wipe it out one day would have been totally foreign to Jesus and the authors of the Scriptures.

With all due respect, the very mention that we shouldn't as God's people try to make earth a better place because "He's going to wipe it out" is sicking and IMO a sin..................esspecially with 9000+ people dying in sub Saharan Africa and the evangelical church in the US (arguably one of the richest people groups in the world) doing little to nothing about it...........that whole Matthew 25 thing when the people asked "when did we see you hungry, or naked..............".

*I'll get off my soapbox now.

Again, that was said with all due respect and not aimed specifically at you christianmom...........more of just a general rant.

Have a wonderful evening sister..........:wave:

[TheUltimateWarrior]

I am asking this of the different denominational groups to see what the answers are for each group.
What do Baptists view God's Purpose as being?
What is the main idea of the Bible?
What is His purpose for man? What is God's purpose for Himself?
Thank you, Dana

1. To Glorify Himself.
2. The Cross.
3.To glorify God and Enjoy him forever.
4.To Glorify Himself.

Your welcome, Jacob.

[RajunCajun86]

try to make creation here and now as close to Heaven as we can we can't and it can't happen, it's a fallen and sinful world and until God cleanses it with fire it will not cease to be falled and sinful, Heaven is a place without sin and full of God's shekinah glory, therefore we in this sinful and fallen world full of death, sin and suffering cannot make it like Heaven, but rather must spread His word and wait upon His return when he will restore His Creation

[RajunCajun86]

With all due respect, the very mention that we shouldn't as God's people try to make earth a better place (the only thing that can make it a better place is having a personal relationship with the Creator) because "He's going to wipe it out" is sicking and IMO a sin..................esspecially with 9000+ people dying in sub Saharan Africa (yes, dying and going to hell which is why we must go and tell them...John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life...you can feed and clothe them for the rest of their lives but they will be no closer to Heaven or to God but rather still on their way directly to hell, they need to know what Jesus did for them and that God has a plan for ther lives, which is to go and tell more people) and the evangelical church in the US (arguably one of the richest people groups in the world) doing little to nothing about it (and the reason is because people think that we are only "to be Jesus everyday to your co-workers" we are not telling people that they have to be His "witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." no will go because they are content and happy trying "to be Jesus everyday to your co-workers" you say we are to live like Jesus but how long did Jesus stay in one place during His ministry, how many strangers did He talk to? ...........that whole Matthew 25 thing when the people asked "when did we see you hungry, or naked..............". (well for starter Matt 25 is all about Heaven... "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour." with this in mind let us go and gather more talents for the Master and not bury them in the ground)

[Andyman_1970]

we can't and it can't happen, it's a fallen and sinful world and until God cleanses it with fire it will not cease to be falled and sinful, Heaven is a place without sin and full of God's shekinah glory, therefore we in this sinful and fallen world full of death, sin and suffering cannot make it like Heaven, but rather must spread His word and wait upon His return when he will restore His Creation

Again this concept of the “status” of creation as you define it is foreign to the authors of the Scriptures and the tradition Jesus came from, not to mention the idea that creation is “evil” or “bad” is an influence of gnosticism. Isaiah 6 speaks of the whole world declaring the glory of God and Psalm 24 declares the whole earth is the Lord’s and everything in it. Sin is an infection in creation, creation itself is good but is fragmented and broken because of the entry of sin into the world, creation itself is not inherently evil.

And again the idea that we shouldn’t strive to make the Kingdom of God a reality where we are right here and now is IMO sickening and runs counter to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. If you think that when a follower of Jesus clothes the naked, or feeds the hungry is not in a small way bringing Heaven to earth then I don’t know what to tell you. Remember Jesus teaches us to pray that God’s will to be done here on earth. If Heaven is a place where things are as God intends them to be. If Heaven is a place where things are as God intends them to be and if I live as God intends for me to live then when we live this way we are bringing Heaven to earth.

The whole idea of repentance (t’shuva in the Hebrew) is of reconciling and restoring people and creation back to how God’s intends it to be. When one repents, the idea is of a person returning to how God intends for them to live, which goes hand in hand with the Hebrew term for eternal life (olam haba), not just where one goes after they die, quite the opposite, olam haba is a life lived as God intends for you to live here and now, and after you die.

I see the two worldviews I have described coming to “life” here…………LOL

[Andyman_1970]

With all due respect, the very mention that we shouldn't as God's people try to make earth a better place (the only thing that can make it a better place is having a personal relationship with the Creator) because "He's going to wipe it out" is sicking and IMO a sin..................esspecially with 9000+ people dying in sub Saharan Africa (yes, dying and going to hell which is why we must go and tell them...John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life...you can feed and clothe them for the rest of their lives but they will be no closer to Heaven or to God but rather still on their way directly to hell, they need to know what Jesus did for them and that God has a plan for ther lives, which is to go and tell more people)

If all we do is tell them how to not go to hell, without taking care of their needs as well, then we have presented a faith that as James says is dead. Not to mention that the emphasis on getting them saved over taking care of their physical needs is also an influence that Gnosticism has had on the church, even today.

I can tell stories all day of closed Muslim countries where Christian missionaries went in and all they did was take care of the needs of the people (when their Muslim neighbors were ignoring them in their plight), they were not allowed even to say the word “Jesus”. Once those Christians demonstrated they genuinely unconditionally loved those people, they were allowed by those nations to open churches and share the Gospel with them………….1 Peter 3:15-16 “be prepared to give a reason for the hope you have…………..”

and the evangelical church in the US (arguably one of the richest people groups in the world) doing little to nothing about it (and the reason is because people think that we are only "to be Jesus everyday to your co-workers" we are not telling people that they have to be His "witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." no will go because they are content and happy trying "to be Jesus everyday to your co-workers" you say we are to live like Jesus but how long did Jesus stay in one place during His ministry, how many strangers did He talk to? ...........that whole Matthew 25 thing when the people asked "when did we see you hungry, or naked..............". (well for starter Matt 25 is all about Heaven... "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour." with this in mind let us go and gather more talents for the Master and not bury them in the ground)

Many crowds came to hear Jesus teach, but His teaching energy as a rabbi went into those disciples so they in turn one day could have disciples and teach their disciples what Jesus taught them……………..that’s what it means to “make disciples”.

First, the term “Kingdom of Heaven” (which is no different than the Kingdom of God) Jesus refers to in the beginning of Matthew 25 is a reference to the Kingdom of God being a reality right here right now, not someplace after one dies. I would also argue He is referring not to His second coming, but His vindication upon His resurrection.

Secondly, verses I was specifically referring to were 40-46. They directly address what will happen to people who refuse to take care of those in need……………in effect they “ignore Jesus”.

[RajunCajun86]

tell them how to not go to hell, without taking care of their needsand if all we do is take care of thier physical needs without telling them what Jesus did for them and God has a plan for them then we have pointed them to hell

[Andyman_1970]

and if all we do is take care of thier physical needs without telling them what Jesus did for them and God has a plan for them then we have pointed them to hell

I don't think I've ever asserted that we as followers of Jesus shouldn't tell people about how He can restore and reconcile them. The two (sharing Jesus and taking care of their needs) however have to go hand in hand.

[RajunCajun86]

I don't think I've ever asserted that we as followers of Jesus shouldn't tell people about how He can restore and reconcile them. The two (sharing Jesus and taking care of their needs) however have to go hand in hand.nor have i that we should not tend to the needs of the needy, but rather that their greatest need (which should also be our primary objective) is the realization of what Jesus did for them and that God has a plan for them, their physical needs are secondary to their spiritual needs

[Andyman_1970]

ntheir physical needs are secondary to their spiritual needs

You realize that is an influcence from Gnosticism, to make the "spiritual" more important than the "physical"?

In the tradition Jesus came from everything is spiritual, in fact there is no Hebrew word for "spiritual" in the OT because to label one thing spiritual meant something else was not. In the tradition Jesus and the authors of the Scripture came from taking care of those in need was one of the most righteous acts a person could perform. Hunger and thirst are spiritual needs, just like one's eternal destination........from the point of view that Jesus came from that is.

[RajunCajun86]

[quote=Andyman_1970]You realize that is an influcence from Gnosticism, to make the "spiritual" more important than the "physical"?[quote]
no it's what Jesus said...
"Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 4:13-14
`Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
Matthew 4:4

[Andyman_1970]

[quote=Andyman_1970]You realize that is an influcence from Gnosticism, to make the "spiritual" more important than the "physical"?[quote]
no it's what Jesus said...
"Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 4:13-14
`Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
Matthew 4:4

So then I guess as followers of Jesus we will never get hungry or thirsty again???

You also realize that God is referred to as "the water for the soul" in 1st century Judaism (the tradition Jesus came from)..............that might lend some background on what He was referring to in John 4.

[RajunCajun86]

So then I guess as followers of Jesus we will never get hungry or thirsty againno but your physical thirst and hunger is secondary to your spiritual needs, this is why we fast...to ensure that our needs are in the proper order

[christianmomof3]

Isaiah 6 speaks of the whole world declaring the glory of God and Psalm 24 declares the whole earth is the Lord’s and everything in it. Sin is an infection in creation, creation itself is good but is fragmented and broken because of the entry of sin into the world, creation itself is not inherently evil.

This is correct - God's original creation is not evil, but it has been infected by sin.

And again the idea that we shouldn’t strive to make the Kingdom of God a reality where we are right here and now is IMO sickening and runs counter to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. If you think that when a follower of Jesus clothes the naked, or feeds the hungry is not in a small way bringing Heaven to earth then I don’t know what to tell you. Remember Jesus teaches us to pray that God’s will to be done here on earth.

Yes, we are supposed to care for the poor, needy and hungry. But, that does not bring heaven to earth. There is a difference between heaven, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the heavens.
Heaven is the realm in which God dwells.
The kingdom of God is God's general reign from eternity past to eternity future.
The kingdom of the heavens is a part of the kingdom of God and it is a term used only in the book of Matthew. The kingdom of the heavens includes the church today and the heavenly part of the coming millennial kingdom.

if I live as God intends for me to live then when we live this way we are bringing Heaven to earth.

If we live Christ, then we are in the Kingdom of the Heavens.
The whole idea of repentance (t’shuva in the Hebrew) is of reconciling and restoring people and creation back to how God’s intends it to be. When one repents, the idea is of a person returning to how God intends for them to live, which goes hand in hand with the Hebrew term for eternal life (olam haba), not just where one goes after they die, quite the opposite, olam haba is a life lived as God intends for you to live here and now, and after you die.
Interesting.

[Andyman_1970]

no but your physical thirst and hunger is secondary to your spiritual needs, this is why we fast...to ensure that our needs are in the proper order

And if you fast too long what happens?

Fasting in the Judaic understanding was a way of remembering who provided for your needs, not as a way so minimizing one's physical needs. God provides our food for us, there is nothing "physical" or "non spiritual" about food, why do you think we are exhorted to bless Him for it before we eat?

Again, the idea that the spiritual is more important is an influcence Gnosticism has had on the church and this influcence runs counter to the worldview Jesus and the authors of the Scripture held.

[RajunCajun86]

Again, the idea that the spiritual is more important is an influcence Gnosticism has had on the church and this influcence runs counter to the worldview Jesus and the authors of the Scripture held.funny, thats not what Jesus said in Matthew 4:4
`Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'

[Andyman_1970]

[ Yes, we are supposed to care for the poor, needy and hungry. But, that does not bring heaven to earth. There is a difference between heaven, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the heavens.

Matthew uses the term “Kingdom of Heaven” the other Gospel writers use the term “Kingdom of God”. Remember Matthew’s audience was Jewish, they would have found using the term “God” all the time offensive. In the Judaic understanding the two terms are one in the same, there is no difference between the two. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven denote where God’s reign is a reality.

[ Heaven is the realm in which God dwells.

True, and in that reality there is not hunger, no thirst, no sickness, no orphans, no widows, etc. So when we live out taking care of the needs of these people, we in effect, in a small way are bringing Heaven on earth, we are showing them how God intends things to be.

The kingdom of God is God's general reign from eternity past to eternity future. [/FONT]

That is the understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven as well, they are one in the same. God is at work today in His creation, He desires to reconcile all of creation back to how He intended it to be and He desires the church to be the instrument of that reconciliation, just as in the OT He desired the Jewish nation to be that instrument.

[Andyman_1970]

funny, thats not what Jesus said in Matthew 4:4
`Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'

So Jesus says that the "Word of God" more important than bread in that passage? Or is He saying that the Word of God is the bread for the soul (which is another way a 1st century Jew would refer to the Word of God........the Torah).

[RajunCajun86]

He desires to reconcile all of creation back to how He intended it to be and He desires the church to be the instrument of that reconciliationexactly and the way that we do that is by telling others what Jesus did to give us a way to be reconciled...food, water and clothes don't reconcile a lost sinner with God only the blood of Jesus does and thats what we have to tell them

[Andyman_1970]

exactly and the way that we do that is by telling others what Jesus did to give us a way to be reconciled...food, water and clothes don't reconcile a lost sinner with God only the blood of Jesus does and thats what we have to tell them

Taking care of those in need is referred to as doing the "good deeds" in 1st century Judaism. Jesus in Matthew 5:16 says that when the world sees God's people doing the "good dees" they will praise God in Heaven.

Read the second half of Isaiah 65, that's what God wants the earth to be like. When we do that, when take care of those in need we live out that vision of what God intends, that the hungry will be fed, that the naked will be clothed, that the thirsty will drink.

Let's say you feed someone who is hungry, and you also share the Gospel with them. If they don't accept Jesus, the Gospel is still good news to them, here and now, because it's because of the Gospel they were fed. The Gospel isn't just about getting people into Heaven, the Gospel is about God reconciling His creation back to how He intends it to be, which included people not going hungry, people having clean water to drink.

To view the Gospel as only about getting people into Heaven is to ignore the historic and cultural background in which the Gospels were written. Many times we view what the Gospels say through our year 2006 Greek educated point of view with all the biases that brings, rather than the 1st century Hebrew point of view in which the Gospels were written and the culture in which Jesus lived and taught.

[RajunCajun86]

the Gospel is about God reconciling His creation back to how He intends it to besin has placed a barrier between us and a holy God that we are each born into (except for Jesus who did not have an earthly father) and the ONLY way to reconcile that is through the blood of Jesus Christ, there is no food, water, clothing or good deads that reconcile us with the Father, the ONLY way to be reconciled is through the blood of Jesus and to say other wise would be saying that He died needlessly

[Andyman_1970]

sin has placed a barrier between us and a holy God that we are each born into (except for Jesus who did not have an earthly father) and the ONLY way to reconcile that is through the blood of Jesus Christ, there is no food, water, clothing or good deads that reconcile us with the Father, the ONLY way to be reconciled is through the blood of Jesus and to say other wise would be saying that He died needlessly

I don't think I've ever advocated that taking care of peoples needs reconciles that indivdual in their relationship with God........I believe you are making an assumption here again.

I have however indicated that taking care of the needs of others gives them a glimpse of how God intends for creation to be (Isaiah 65), or in other words what Heaven is like.

BTW, the concept of being born a sinner (the barrier you indicate we are "born into") was thought up about 300 years after Jesus, and not something either He nor the authors of the Scripture would have held. Sin is rebellion against God, not some inherited evil. Every human (with the exception of Jesus) sins or has sinned, but it's because they chose to, they were not guilty of sin the second they emerged from their mothers birth canal.

[abbasdaughter]

The Purpose of God: To glorify Himself
The Purpose of Man: To glorify God and Enjoy Him forever.
"...everyone who is called by My name, whom I CREATED FOR MY GLORY, whom I formed and made." (Is 43:7)

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things [including man], and by Your will [God's purpose and pleasure] they were created and have their being." Rev. 4:11

How do we bring glory to God?
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into His likeness with every-increasing glory, WHICH COMES FROM THE LORD, who is the Spirit." We glorify Him by yielding to the Spirit in us who glorifies the Father, becoming more and more like Christ as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.

According to Romans 12:2 as this transformation occurs, we will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will.

To live out the life that He chose you for in Christ is to bring Father glory. "In him (Christ) we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything inconformity with the purpose of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory." "Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory."

As for bringing heaven to earth - guess we have to leave the dueling believers to figure that one out. :) abbasdaughter

[abbasdaughter]

Beg to differ on that one... Romans 5: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because ALL SINNED"..."Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to thetime of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. FOR IF THE MANY DIED BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." We could go on. Sin has reigned in all mankind since the fall of Adam - we are born depraved, enslaved to sin and death, in need of a Savior. abbasdaughter

[RajunCajun86]

I have however indicated that taking care of the needs of others gives them a glimpse of how God intends for creation to be (Isaiah 65), or in other words what Heaven is like. but why would you not just tell them how to be reconciled which is what they need

[christianmomof3]

Matthew uses the term “Kingdom of Heaven” the other Gospel writers use the term “Kingdom of God”. Remember Matthew’s audience was Jewish, they would have found using the term “God” all the time offensive. In the Judaic understanding the two terms are one in the same, there is no difference between the two. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven denote where God’s reign is a reality.

Matthew 4:17 Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.

If the kindom of the heavens is the same as the kingdom of God, then it would have been already there since the kingdom of God is God's entire reign on the earth which goes from eternity past to eternity future. The kingdom of the heavens is a specific part of the kingdom of God which includes the church today and the heavenly part of the coming millenial kingdom. In the Old Testament the kingdom of God already existed with the nation of Israel, but the kindom of the heavens had not yet come and it drew near when John the Baptist came - as seen in Matthew 3:2 And sayying, Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near and in Matthew 11;11-12, we see that the kindom of the heavens had not yet come and would not until after John the Baptist.

[Andyman_1970]

Beg to differ on that one... Romans 5: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because ALL SINNED"..."Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to thetime of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. FOR IF THE MANY DIED BY THE TRESPASS OF THE ONE MAN, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." We could go on. Sin has reigned in all mankind since the fall of Adam - we are born depraved, enslaved to sin and death, in need of a Savior. abbasdaughter

So man doesn't have freewill?

Sin is rebellion against God, not an inherited evil, if it was they we'd have no ability to choose.

Not to get off on too much of a tanget:

An exceprt from the article "Theological Errors due to the separation from Hebrew roots" by Dan Rodriguez

III. A world of difference exists between Judaism and traditional Christian theology when we come to the subject of sin. Judaism teaches that man is born good. He is not born a sinner. He becomes responsible for his sins at the age of 13 (12 for girls) when he becomes a "man of duty" (Bar-Mitzvah). Until this age, a child's sins are the responsibility of the parents. From the age of 13, he is considered a responsible adult who can choose not to sin. It is taught that man is born good, but has two opposing inclinations in him: One leads to the good, and the other to the bad. Paul dealt with the concept of the good and bad inclinations in Romans 7:17-21. Even the bad inclination is not evil in and of itself. If properly directed and controlled, it serves a useful purpose.

In contrast to this biblical concept, Christianity offers the doctrine original sin, beginning with Augustine (355-430), bishop of Hippo in Africa. He was the architect of an ideology that taught that the act of sex was the vehicle of original sin. (See D.J. Bailey, "Sexual Relations in Christian Thought," pg. 53-56; D. Feldman, Marital Relation, Birth Control and Abortion in Jewish Law, pg. 83-84) Augustine taught that the consequence of this sin is transmitted through the sexual act from one generation to the next. Because of this, a child, he said, was literally conceived in the "sin" of its parents. The connection between this idea and the doctrine of Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth should be obvious.

Sin should be understood as defiance and rebellion to divine law. It is not a hereditary evil. It should be clear that if there did exist such a thing as "original sin," transferred from one generation to the next, this would undermine man's divine right to a free will. Man would no- longer be a free moral agent. Man, contrary to this, has to choose the good and reject the evil; overcome the evil with good. (For an analysis of this see S. Schechter, Aspects of Rabbinic Theology, New York: Schocken Books, 1961, pp. 242-263.)

[Andyman_1970]

but why would you not just tell them how to be reconciled which is what they need

They also need to eat and have something to drink, that's what they really need also..........they need both. You seem to be asserting that I'm against telling people about how to have a relationship with Jesus the Messiah, you are totally misunderstanding me here.

I find it really ironic how most Christians are so outspoken against Dan Brown's book because it's Gnostic not realizing they have swallowed portions of Gnosticism themselves without realizing it.

[Andyman_1970]

Matthew 4:17 Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.

If the kindom of the heavens is the same as the kingdom of God, then it would have been already there since the kingdom of God is God's entire reign on the earth which goes from eternity past to eternity future. The kingdom of the heavens is a specific part of the kingdom of God which includes the church today and the heavenly part of the coming millenial kingdom. In the Old Testament the kingdom of God already existed with the nation of Israel, but the kindom of the heavens had not yet come and it drew near when John the Baptist came - as seen in Matthew 3:2 And sayying, Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near and in Matthew 11;11-12, we see that the kindom of the heavens had not yet come and would not until after John the Baptist.

It's interesting you're quoting Matthew, he was a Jewish author writing to a Jewish audience........in the 1st century Jewish mindset, there is no difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven........the usage of the Kingdom of Heaven was to not offend Matthew's Jewish audience who would have been sensitive to the overuse of the term "God" for fear of breaking the "thou shalt not misuse the Name of the LORD".

From the context of the authors of the Scriptures and the first people to hear it there is no difference between the two.

[abbasdaughter]

So man doesn't have freewill?

Sin is rebellion against God, not an inherited evil, if it was they we'd have no ability to choose.

Not to get off on too much of a tanget:

An exceprt from the article "Theological Errors due to the separation from Hebrew roots" by Dan Rodriguez

Ah - there's the rub, isn't it? Man DOES have free will - man is also a slave to sin apart from Christ. Ephesians 2:1 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work int those who are disobedient (some renderings use "The sons of disobedience)" Romans 5:18-19 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Romans 6:17-18 "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin [in the greek: "the sin"] you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted [the gospel]. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

There are many other verses I could quote, but for times sake -
We were born into "THE sin", if you will. Before we meet Christ, we are slaves to that sin and commit sin, powerless to do else. If we could keep from sinning by ourselves by freewill - we wouldn't be in need of a Savior. Even if we were born without sin, one sin condemns us for all. (Guilty of one part of the law, guilty of all) We have free will in that when the offer of salvation comes, we can choose to respond in faith to be set free from the penalty and power of sin. Otherwise, we have chosen to remain a slave to sin. It is this old state of sin that condemns us.

The law was sent as a tutor to Christ. It shows us our sin and shows us that we cannot keep it on our own. When Jesus died, He set us free from the law of sin and death, gave us power by the Holy Spirit to now keep the spirit of the Law by the choice of yielding to Him. We are free from the power of sin and we have freewill to choose to yield to our flesh or to yield to the Spirit who resides within us.

with love, abbasdaughter

[abbasdaughter]

Oh, and sin IS defiance and rebellion to divine Law - it is choosing our own way and missing the will of God. Adam did that in the garden and thus we all pay the price of sin. (Chances are - in his barefeet - we probably would have chosen the same.) abbas daughter

[JPPT1974]

Oh, and sin IS defiance and rebellion to divine Law - it is choosing our own way and missing the will of God. Adam did that in the garden and thus we all pay the price of sin. (Chances are - in his barefeet - we probably would have chosen the same.) abbas daughter

Had not Adam and Eve sinned
We would be living in a free world
Not with sin and perfect and most of all,
In no need of a Savior & Lord named Jesus Christ!

[Andyman_1970]

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,........

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage. I am not responsible for Adam's sin, I am responsible to God for my sin.

We were born into "THE sin", if you will. Before we meet Christ, we are slaves to that sin and commit sin, powerless to do else.

Again I disagree, every person has the potential not to sin, they choose not to. To say we are "powerless" means that man is in fact not his own moral free agent.

If we could keep from sinning by ourselves by freewill - we wouldn't be in need of a Savior.

The problem is all humans at some point choose to sin, except Jesus of course.

Even if we were born without sin, one sin condemns us for all. (Guilty of one part of the law, guilty of all)

I don't disagree.

We have free will in that when the offer of salvation comes, we can choose to respond in faith to be set free from the penalty and power of sin.

We also have free will to choose between right and wrong, even those who don't know Jesus. To say that we have "freewill" to choose Jesus, and by implication that's all we have the "power" to have freewill of, is in fact not freewill at all.

As for Jesus He was sinless because He did not sin, not because there was no sexual intercourse (immaculate conception) to pass on sin to Him.

[RajunCajun86]

The problem is all humans at some point choose to sin, except Jesus of course. then how do explain why He was born of a virgin...just because?

[Andyman_1970]

then how do explain why He was born of a virgin...just because?

Because that's what the prophesy said He would be born - it makes no mention that He would be born this way so He wouldn't inherit sin as a result of the act of sexual intercourse.

[abbasdaughter]

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage. I am not responsible for Adam's sin, I am responsible to God for my sin.



Again I disagree, every person has the potential not to sin, they choose not to. To say we are "powerless" means that man is in fact not his own moral free agent.



The problem is all humans at some point choose to sin, except Jesus of course.



I don't disagree.



We also have free will to choose between right and wrong, even those who don't know Jesus. To say that we have "freewill" to choose Jesus, and by implication that's all we have the "power" to have freewill of, is in fact not freewill at all.

As for Jesus He was sinless because He did not sin, not because there was no sexual intercourse (immaculate conception) to pass on sin to Him.

I AM responsible for my own sin - because as an unbeliever I am IN adam, inherently a sinner. The scripture says that even my righteous acts (if i choose to do something that is morally right) are still as filthy rags before the Lord - why? Because I cannot do anything in righteousness until God imputes His righteousness to me in Christ. If, as an unbeliever, I choose to remain in my state of sin, I am responsible for those sins and will pay for those sins - the sins that I have committed as a result of being a slave to sin. It does not lessen my accountability to holy God. Even if I am a fairly moral person in my behavior - and I have known many...- I am still dead in my sin because I inherited a sinful nature from Adam.

Praise be to Christ who sets us free from the body of this death!
abbasdaughter

[abbasdaughter]

There is not one person that has the potential NOT to sin - no not one. If that were true - where is the perfect person? Only Jesus because He was the "2nd Adam" - born without sin, and obedient to the Father.

[Andyman_1970]

There is not one person that has the potential NOT to sin - no not one.

Then there is no freewill. If there is no theoretical possibility that a human could not sin (Jesus did and He was fully human, never the less) then they don't have a choice in the matter do they, they don't truly have freewill.

You're contradictin yourself here, on the one hand you say the individual is responsible for their own sin, and on the one hand you say we have no potential as humans not to sin........how can one be resposible if in fact they have no choice in the matter?

We disagree on this subject, I hold the understanding of "orginal sin" consistant with the tradition and culture of that of the authors of the Scripture and my Messiah. The idea that a human at birth is already guilty of sin (not to mention the idea that sexual intercourse some how passes on sin) and has no potential to choose to do right or wrong runs counter to the culture our Messiah and Bible came out of. IMO it is an invention by a group of people influenced by IMO flawed Greek thinking and Gnosticism.


This is way off the OP of this thread so maybe we should save this discussion for another thread or a PM conversation.

[RajunCajun86]

11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5
^

[Andyman_1970]

I don't disagree with you brother...........

[RajunCajun86]

I would argue when we live as He created us to live we bring Him glory.

IMO the emphasis that our sole purpose (or the most important one) is telling others about Jesus rather than living the kind of life that brings Heaven to earth (Matthew 6:10) misses the whole point of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and to strive to live a life of a disciple of His.the only way for us to "live as He created to live" is to be reconciled through Jesus...

11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5
so then as disciple of His, then shouldn't we then tell others how to also "live as He created us to".... by first being reconciled through Jesus (Romans 5:11) and by following His last words to His disciples...

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28


31 "The second is this, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12
the greatest display of love that we can show someone is how to be reconciled with God so they can then "live as they were created to live" and then in turn continue the cycle

[Andyman_1970]

the only way for us to "live as He created to live" is to be reconciled through Jesus...

I don't disagree.

so then as disciple of His, then shouldn't we then tell others how to also "live as He created us to".... by first being reconciled through Jesus (Romans 5:11) and by following His last words to His disciples...

I agree, we should tell people about Jesus using our words and our lives.

the greatest display of love that we can show someone is how to be reconciled with God so they can then "live as they were created to live" and then in turn continue the cycle

Without also loving those people unconditionally and taking care of their needs if they are hungry, or thirsty, or naked...........words alone are a dead faith according to Jesus' little brother.............so I would argue the greatest love we can display is to do both, share Jesus with them and take care of their needs. It's not an either or proposition, it's a both and.

[RajunCajun86]

words alone are a deadyes, OUR words alone are dead

greatest love we can display is to do both, share Jesus with them and take care of their needs.
we should do both and are charged to do both, but still the greatest would be the one that shows/tells a person HOW to be reconciled and then by our living as well as our mouth we should show them WHAT it means to be reconciled

[christianmomof3]

Well, it has been intersting to see the various views in the answers to the questions in the original post here. It is apparant that there is not a concensus about what God's will for man is.

I believe that the Bible shows us God's complete purpose and plan for man.

God did not put us here on earth just for the purpose of us dying and going to heaven.

God did not put us here on the earth just so we would be good people.

God did not send His Son and give us the gospel just so we would restore the world into a beautiful place.

God's eternal purpose is to have a group of people filled with Him as life to express Him and represent Him.
God’s goal is to have many believers who are fully transformed by Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18: But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit) and conformed to His glorious image (Romans 8:29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.
But, God does not want a bunch of individual believers. He wants us to be built up together as His Body in oneness.
Together, the believers are the church, the Body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:22-23...the church, Which is His body, the fullness of the one who fills all in all.; Colossians 1:18 And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things.
Ultimately, our goalis not to die and go to heaven and walk on golden streets. Ultimately, God’s intention will result in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:10 And he carried me away in spirit unto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.)which will be God and man together, which will exist throughout eternity as the complete expression of the Triune God in humanity.

What we need to do in order to help God achieve His goal (which He will achieve sooner or later - with or without you and me, but we can be part of it happening sooner, rather than later) is to watch and pray and be those who are eagerly awaiting His appearing. We need to be built up with other believers as the one Body of Christ in oneness. We need to preach the gospel of the Kingdom. We need to live a life of "no longer I, but Christ" - Gal 2:20. We need to go to the cross daily, read the Bible," always rejoice, unceasingly pray, in everything give thanks" 1 Thes 5:16-18.
We need to pray all the time in everything we do and turn to our spirit and allow the Lord to work through us and express Himself through us. Whatever we do in our selves outside of Christ is wood, grass and stubble that will be burned up. What we do in Christ is the gold, silver and precious stones. We need to have the Lord as our goal and His purpose (not what is good for me, but what God wants) as our goal in everything we do.

[RajunCajun86]

which will be God and man together
for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Revelation 5:9
^