Since when did we become Buddhists?

[contriteheart]

So I was over at the UMC site today, and checked out something called the Living Prayer Center - a place where people can submit prayer requests.

The picture accompanying the site is of a woman wearing typical yoga class attire, sitting it a field in what appears to be the lotus position with her hands clasped in a yoga-style meditation posture.

What's up with that? Now, I'm not saying that God won't hear our prayers if our physical posture isn't right, but why do we have to portray Christian prayer in a posture traditionally associated with Eastern religion?

:sigh:

-Grace

[contriteheart]

Removed by me so as not to potentially violate copyright regulations.

-Grace

[contriteheart]

My question is this: if you saw this, would your first thought be "Look, there's a Christian praying!" or "Look at that nice young woman doing her Yoga meditation!"

[desert_island_1]

My question is this: if you saw this, would your first thought be "Look, there's a Christian praying!" or "Look at that nice young woman doing her Yoga meditation!"
Probably the nice young woman doing her yoga meditations.

Kristy

[zoziw]

What's up with that? Now, I'm not saying that God won't hear our prayers if our physical posture isn't right, but why do we have to portray Christian prayer in a posture traditionally associated with Eastern religion?

There is a school of thought that says that our ancestor's didn't retreat from something simply because it was associated with non-Christians. Instead, they embraced it and turned it over to Christ.

Christmas and Easter are two examples in that we occupied these two pagan holidays, proclaimed them for Jesus and ended up taking them over for several centuries (consumerism seems to be taking them over from us now).

If we can take something like a yoga meditation posture and convert it into a Christian activity, maybe we can take it over as well. :)

[contriteheart]

I guess my title is wrong. It probably should have been "Since when did we become Hindus?" Isn't yoga a Hindu practice? Sorry 'bout that! :)

-Grace

[markbelieves]

I guess my title is wrong. It probably should have been "Since when did we become Hindus?" Isn't yoga a Hindu practice? Sorry 'bout that! :)

-Grace

Yes, yoga is a Hindu practice. I am not sur how I feel about that picture but I disagree with churches that mix Christian devotions with yoga as a ministry. I have headr of this being done.

Mark

[svdbygrace]

I think it's ok to pray in what ever position you like. You see several diffrent ones in the Bible. :) I personally prefere kneeling for prayer... but that's just me. :D

[MamaD]

Funny--I was also on the UMC website today, and I noticed the same thing. Do you ever get the impression that the United Methodist Church is almost trying to soft-sell, even hide, the Christian message? It's like one of those photographs where everything looks soft and slightly blurred. It's pretty to look at, but it's difficult to see details in the picture.

If I was looking for a church today, I would not be able to tell what we Methodists are about from the ad campaigns out there. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against learning from and gaining understanding from other faiths and cultures. But when we say we have "open hearts, open doors" and show pictures of people praying in a Hindu-like pose, it doesn't tell others what is distinctive about Wesleyan Christianity. It almost implies that anything goes. I think it confuses people.

Just my humble opinion.... :wave:

[herev]

well as the story goes:
There was a telephone repair man fixing a phone problem in the pastor's office at a church. In the room were the pastor and two pastor friends arguing over what position is best for prayer.
One said, he always prayed with his head down
the other said, no, you must be on your knees to truly speak to God
the other said, no, one must be prostrate on the ground for a prayer to be the most sincere.

finally, the repairman said, "look, I've found from experience, the most sincere position for prayer is when you're hanging by one foot upside down, 25 feet up a telephone pole, never will find another position where I felt more sincere in my prayers than that time!"

[evviva]

I don't know. I like that picture. She's a nice girl praying in a field. She doesn't wear a typical Hindu dress, I think.

[overnight]

Funny--I was also on the UMC website today, and I noticed the same thing. Do you ever get the impression that the United Methodist Church is almost trying to soft-sell, even hide, the Christian message? It's like one of those photographs where everything looks soft and slightly blurred. It's pretty to look at, but it's difficult to see details in the picture.

If I was looking for a church today, I would not be able to tell what we Methodists are about from the ad campaigns out there. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against learning from and gaining understanding from other faiths and cultures. But when we say we have "open hearts, open doors" and show pictures of people praying in a Hindu-like pose, it doesn't tell others what is distinctive about Wesleyan Christianity. It almost implies that anything goes. I think it confuses people.

Just my humble opinion.... :wave:

In regards to your statement about "it doesn't tell others what is distinctive about Wesleyan Christianity...." I could not disagree more. I would argue that having "Open minds, open doors...." and showing people with alternative worship styles, depicts a church with openess. Openess to new ideas, different styles of worship and even different styles of praying.

I think too we should be very carful about judgeing in what possion we pray. I think it is not about how physicaly we pray, but what we pray and how mentally and spiritually we pray.

[contriteheart]

Funny--I was also on the UMC website today, and I noticed the same thing. Do you ever get the impression that the United Methodist Church is almost trying to soft-sell, even hide, the Christian message? It's like one of those photographs where everything looks soft and slightly blurred. It's pretty to look at, but it's difficult to see details in the picture.

If I was looking for a church today, I would not be able to tell what we Methodists are about from the ad campaigns out there. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against learning from and gaining understanding from other faiths and cultures. But when we say we have "open hearts, open doors" and show pictures of people praying in a Hindu-like pose, it doesn't tell others what is distinctive about Wesleyan Christianity. It almost implies that anything goes. I think it confuses people.

Just my humble opinion.... :wave:

Well said!:thumbsup:

-Grace

[Texas Lynn]

A friend our ours who's a union rep for the police union says he's a Buddhist because "Buddhism was good enough for Jesus Christ, and it's good enough for [him]."

[svdbygrace]

Funny--I was also on the UMC website today, and I noticed the same thing. Do you ever get the impression that the United Methodist Church is almost trying to soft-sell, even hide, the Christian message? It's like one of those photographs where everything looks soft and slightly blurred. It's pretty to look at, but it's difficult to see details in the picture.

If I was looking for a church today, I would not be able to tell what we Methodists are about from the ad campaigns out there. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against learning from and gaining understanding from other faiths and cultures. But when we say we have "open hearts, open doors" and show pictures of people praying in a Hindu-like pose, it doesn't tell others what is distinctive about Wesleyan Christianity. It almost implies that anything goes. I think it confuses people.

Just my humble opinion.... :wave:

Well... if the big black cross with the red flame dosen't say anything I don't know what will. :scratch: It's on every page of the UMC website and in every ad I have ever seen about the UMC itself or any of it's parishes. That cross and flame says a lot about the UMC in my opinion. :) You see quite a few Churches/denominations today that won't even display a cross... anywhere. :(

[Onomatopoeia]

There is a school of thought that says that our ancestor's didn't retreat from something simply because it was associated with non-Christians. Instead, they embraced it and turned it over to Christ.

Christmas and Easter are two examples in that we occupied these two pagan holidays, proclaimed them for Jesus and ended up taking them over for several centuries (consumerism seems to be taking them over from us now).

If we can take something like a yoga meditation posture and convert it into a Christian activity, maybe we can take it over as well. :)

I think that is an EXCELLENT point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.



A friend our ours who's a union rep for the police union says he's a Buddhist because "Buddhism was good enough for Jesus Christ, and it's good enough for [him]."

That's disturbing, scary, and sad all at the same time.

[BelovedWord]

To me it does not matter what psition you are in physically when you pray. What does matter is the position you are in mentally. If the phone man can pray upside down on one leg, then I can surely get my prayer across in the yoga position. I do not do yoga, but you know what I mean.

God Bless,
Brian

[contriteheart]

The posture in which we pray is not my point. You can pray in any posture you like - God is looking at the heart.

What I am questioning is why we feel a need as Methodists to try to pictorially portray ourselves in a way that can only serve to confuse the watching world.

I believe that picture is intended to communicate a message about who were are and what we believe, and that message is a garbled one. And call me a cynic, but I think there's likely a bit of an agenda behind that picture.

We are Christians. We are not Buddhists, Muslims, or Hindus. That picture communicates very subtly a dangerous message that all religions are the same; that it doesn't matter what you believe, just so long as you sincerely believe.

I have an open heart, and I believe in open doors, but I'm sorry - my mind is just not that open.

Though I am aware that St. Paul's said he had become all things to all men that he might win the more, I think there is a slightly different issue at play here. He was trying to win the world to Christ, not make Christianity palatable to the world by becoming indistinguishable from it. If we try to be all things to all people in that way, I believe we will end up being nothing to anyone.

-Grace

[ClementofRome]

well as the story goes:
There was a telephone repair man fixing a phone problem in the pastor's office at a church. In the room were the pastor and two pastor friends arguing over what position is best for prayer.
One said, he always prayed with his head down
the other said, no, you must be on your knees to truly speak to God
the other said, no, one must be prostrate on the ground for a prayer to be the most sincere.

finally, the repairman said, "look, I've found from experience, the most sincere position for prayer is when you're hanging by one foot upside down, 25 feet up a telephone pole, never will find another position where I felt more sincere in my prayers than that time!"


HOW TRUE! That is a great story herev!

In the same vein as the OP, I was, a few years ago, exploring the martial arts and came across a UMC in San Francisco that held weekly Tai Chi classes in the fellowship hall. I was shocked, to say the least. Now, don't get me wrong, I do believe that we can baptize meditation in many forms (ex. sitting in the lotus position and praying to God)...but the purpose yoga and Tai Chi is to align the chakras and center the energy of "chi," which are both antithetical to the Christian religion.

[herev]

HOW TRUE! That is a great story herev!

In the same vein as the OP, I was, a few years ago, exploring the martial arts and came across a UMC in San Francisco that held weekly Tai Chi classes in the fellowship hall. I was shocked, to say the least. Now, don't get me wrong, I do believe that we can baptize meditation in many forms (ex. sitting in the lotus position and praying to God)...but the purpose yoga and Tai Chi is to align the chakras and center the energy of "chi," which are both antithetical to the Christian religion.
good thought
you're always so smart;)

[ClementofRome]

good thought
you're always so smart;)


uhhh, ask my wife about that..... :eek:

[ClementofRome]

Forgive me.

What I posted was not offered in Christian love. I edited it out.

Forgive me.

[aigiqinf]

I'd say "Not another Jean commerical."

[overnight]

The posture in which we pray is not my point. You can pray in any posture you like - God is looking at the heart.

What I am questioning is why we feel a need as Methodists to try to pictorially portray ourselves in a way that can only serve to confuse the watching world.

I believe that picture is intended to communicate a message about who were are and what we believe, and that message is a garbled one. And call me a cynic, but I think there's likely a bit of an agenda behind that picture.

We are Christians. We are not Buddhists, Muslims, or Hindus. That picture communicates very subtly a dangerous message that all religions are the same; that it doesn't matter what you believe, just so long as you sincerely believe.

I have an open heart, and I believe in open doors, but I'm sorry - my mind is just not that open.

Though I am aware that St. Paul's said he had become all things to all men that he might win the more, I think there is a slightly different issue at play here. He was trying to win the world to Christ, not make Christianity palatable to the world by becoming indistinguishable from it. If we try to be all things to all people in that way, I believe we will end up being nothing to anyone.

-Grace

I think you may be reading a bit too much into the picture. I remeber some months back there were actual TV commercials for the UMC. These commercials went as far as to state that one not even need to go to church as long as they believed in God. (Parapharsing a bit but that is pretty much what it said.) I think the point behind these items is not to confuse people or to "show who we are and what we belive." I belive that through items like pictures of people praying in "non-traditonal ways" the UMC can also begin to reach an audiance that normally it might not be able to.
:pray:

[herev]

uhhh, ask my wife about that..... :eek:nah, she'd surely say the same about you as sherev would about me, no need to ask, I know the answers by heart

[BelovedWord]

I think you may be reading a bit too much into the picture. I remeber some months back there were actual TV commercials for the UMC. These commercials went as far as to state that one not even need to go to church as long as they believed in God. (Parapharsing a bit but that is pretty much what it said.) I think the point behind these items is not to confuse people or to "show who we are and what we belive." I belive that through items like pictures of people praying in "non-traditonal ways" the UMC can also begin to reach an audiance that normally it might not be able to.
:pray:
I agree ^^. The church of today is trying to bring others to Christ by showing that the church is open minded to new believers that choose to practice in a less traditional way.

Grace, I did look at the pic from your perspective and I would have thought the same thing, but that is not how I think. Though I am fundamentalist, I still leave my mind open to new ways to bring others to Christ. I respect your opinion greatly, but if the church can change a little bit to gain more believers than I think it is a good change. I strongly disagree with the notion that the church is changing their stance on beliefs and salvation, which of course you did not say that. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)

God Bless,
Brian

[Ravenonthecross]

i personally, don't think folks are going to be attracted to christianity because they see a woman in a yoga pose. I'd associate it more with Hinduism, and thus, it seems almost , to me atleast, to counteradvertise against Christianity.

[FarTraveler]

Sense when is crossed legs and hands steepled a Hindu pose.

[contriteheart]

Sense when is crossed legs and hands steepled a Hindu pose.

Both are elements of Hindu-inspired yoga postures.

Also, this posture is associated with Buddhism. I knew there was some reason it immediately made me think of Buddhism. I did a search, and came up with a site devoted to Buddhism whose prayer page displayed a woman praying in this exact posture.


-Grace

[contriteheart]

PS: I am removing the original image of the woman from the UMC site because I realized it might violate copyright regulations to post it here. Sorry about that.

-Grace

[FarTraveler]

-rme-

[contriteheart]

Hi Far Traveler, :)

What does -rme- mean?

-Grace

[FarTraveler]

It means..."rolls my eyes"

It means I need to find someplace else to hang out in

[contriteheart]

I'm sorry that I have offended you.

-Grace

[markbelieves]

I'm sorry that I have offended you.

-Grace

You have no need to apologize to anyone. You raised a legitimate question. Some may find problems with that picture, others may not. This does not mean that your concerns are not valid. In this age when so many are watering down the Message and confusing reaching out to sinners with accepting sin we should be vigilant in pointing out anything that may blur the Message. The picture on question would be more at home on a Universalist site.

Mark

[aigiqinf]

That reminds me, during martial arts you do some meditation. One person was a preacher and he quit calling it "buddhist."

[alaurie]

Both are elements of Hindu-inspired yoga postures.

Also, this posture is associated with Buddhism. I knew there was some reason it immediately made me think of Buddhism. I did a search, and came up with a site devoted to Buddhism whose prayer page displayed a woman praying in this exact posture.


-Grace


It made me think of 'generic yoga' more than actual Buddhism (looks more like a pic from a Gaiam catalog), but I don't think of yoga as being some sort of esoteric "Yoga" unless a person chooses to make it more than exercise. (A word of caution at this point - most yoga instructional dvds overtly or subtly do promote the spiritualism component so I'm assuming many classes do as well.) My thinking is the yogis spiritualized the positions because the endorpins released in excellent posture, stretching felt so darn good to them they felt (wrongly) that they'd found a pathway to divinity. My thinking is influenced by a biology degree, first hand knowledge that it does feel good, and a yoga class taught by a physical therapist. She was all about body mechanics and not spiritualism.

It is bothersome to me that the church site contains this pic, though I enjoy yoga as a form of exercise. The pose, as most people with some familiarity with yoga see it, is associated with a belief that one can find spiritual enlightment without Christ. While the 'spiritual enlightment' bit can be argued for a lot of religions, it's not salvation through Christ. So the picture bothers me most in that sense, but it also reinforces an irritation that I have with the "seeker church" mentality. Why do we have to look go so far to look like the world that we actually wind up looking like a false faith to draw people to Christ???

[mike1reynolds]

My family has been Methodist for four generations. My great grandmother was a charter member of our Church, 1st Methodist in Atlanta, from her birth in 1890. My grandfather was an Air Force colonel but he was encouraged to get a degree, so he naturally chose comparative religion. After he retired he became very active in Free Masonry and was twice master of his lodge. The reason that Founding Fathers like Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were all Free Masons was because it was a society of comparative religion and liberal theology. It is more of a business fraternity today, but it was still an institution of comparative religion to my grandfather.

Methodism has always appealed mainly to balanced, intelligent people and not a fanatical crowd. In the past, people who dabbled in other religions were mostly fanatical or ungrounded in some way, but as these things have gained more acceptance in popular culture the New Age movement has come to loosely encompass a lot of intelligent, emotionally balanced people who think of Christianity as too fanatical because they aren’t familiar with liberal theologians like John Wesley.

People have been having spiritual insights from Hinduism since the time of the Beatles. It is really not that provocative. Yoda was modeled after a teacher of an Eastern religion, as well as a number of cartoons since such as Mutant Ninja Turtles, so even little kids are influenced by it. All Hindus acknowledge Jesus as an incarnation of God. Any Hindu could honestly and sincerely recite every part of the Apostle’s Creed except the two words only begotten. More than anything the lotus posture is associated with health rather than religion. Doctors frequently recommend meditation to patients with any sign of anxiety and yoga is good for the body as well as the mind.

People who are into this sort of thing are usually fairly well educated and innately liberal in their theology so it makes perfect sense that the UMC would make appeals especially to such an audience. Those are the two primary demographics for Methodist evangelism, education and liberal theology. It is perfectly targeted.

[alaurie]

People have been having spiritual insights from Hinduism since the time of the Beatles. It is really not that provocative. Yoda was modeled after a teacher of an Eastern religion, as well as a number of cartoons since such as Mutant Ninja Turtles, so even little kids are influenced by it. All Hindus acknowledge Jesus as an incarnation of God. Any Hindu could honestly and sincerely recite every part of the Apostle’s Creed except the two words only begotten.


This part of your post contradicts the reality of persecution of Christian by Hindus. The persecution is regularly reported about by Voice of the Martyrs on the Christian radio station I listen to.

Googling Hindu persecution of Christians yeilds nearly 400,000 hits including recent news reports such as these.

http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/widespread-attacks-against-india-christians-amid-tougher-laws/

http://www.asianews.it/view_p.php?l=en&art=6577


People who are into this sort of thing are usually fairly well educated and innately liberal in their theology so it makes perfect sense that the UMC would make appeals especially to such an audience. Those are the two primary demographics for Methodist evangelism, education and liberal theology. It is perfectly targeted.


This well-educated, conservative Methodist will keep doing her yoga for exercise, thinking and researching for herself, and rejoicing in the fact that her church that teaches sound Biblical theology is bursting at the seams with people coming hungry for truth and grace.

[mike1reynolds]

This part of your post contradicts the reality of persecution of Hindus by Christian.Since the aim of the Methodist Church has nothing to do with evangelizing Hindus this is not relevant.

This well-educated, conservative Methodist will keep doing her yoga for exercise, thinking and researching for herself, and rejoicing in the fact that her church that teaches sound Biblical theology is bursting at the seams with people coming hungry for truth and grace. I think you are getting theology confused with politics. John Wesley was a liberal theologian, which doesn’t necessarily say very much about one’s political views.

[alaurie]

Since the aim of the MethodistChurch has nothing to do with evangelizing Hindus this is not relevant.


This part of your post contradicts the reality of persecution of Christian by Hindus


Corrected statement form Post 39 was in response to this portion of Post 38.

People have been having spiritual insights from Hinduism since the time of the Beatles. It is really not that provocative. Yoda was modeled after a teacher of an Eastern religion, as well as a number of cartoons since such as Mutant Ninja Turtles, so even little kids are influenced by it. All Hindus acknowledge Jesus as an incarnation of God. Any Hindu could honestly and sincerely recite every part of the Apostle’s Creed except the two words only begotten.


-----


I think you are getting theology confused with politics. John Wesley was a liberal theologian, which doesn’t necessarily say very much about one’s political views.


Actually I was thinking of "liberal" in light of the semantic changes the word has undergone since Wesley's day. I more had the red portions (emphasis mine) of the following explanation of liberal theology in mind.

http://www.answers.com/topic/liberal-christianity

Liberal Christianity, progressive Christianity—or liberalism within a modern Christian context—is a movement within Christianity (http://www.answers.com/topic/christianity) that is often characterized by the following features:

internal diversity of opinion
an embracing of higher criticism (http://www.answers.com/topic/higher-criticism) of the Bible (http://www.answers.com/topic/bible) with a corresponding willingness to question supernatural elements of biblical stories (e.g., the virgin birth (http://www.answers.com/topic/virgin-birth-1))
the rejection of biblical literalism and the inerrancy (http://www.answers.com/topic/inerrancy) of the Bible
the freedom to construct one's own personal view of God
broader views on salvation (http://www.answers.com/topic/salvation) than those held by conservative Christians, including universalist (http://www.answers.com/topic/universal-reconciliation) beliefs
an emphasis on inclusive fellowship and community, often applied in recent years to racial minorities, women and homosexuals
a willingness to consider and adopt viewpoints which have their roots outside of Christianity (e.g., other faith/philosophical traditions)
a willingness to combine theology with modern scientific theories

[contriteheart]

My family has been Methodist for four generations. My great grandmother was a charter member of our Church, 1st Methodist in Atlanta, from her birth in 1890. My grandfather was an Air Force colonel but he was encouraged to get a degree, so he naturally chose comparative religion. After he retired he became very active in Free Masonry and was twice master of his lodge. The reason that Founding Fathers like Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were all Free Masons was because it was a society of comparative religion and liberal theology. It is more of a business fraternity today, but it was still an institution of comparative religion to my grandfather.

Methodism has always appealed mainly to balanced, intelligent people and not a fanatical crowd. In the past, people who dabbled in other religions were mostly fanatical or ungrounded in some way, but as these things have gained more acceptance in popular culture the New Age movement has come to loosely encompass a lot of intelligent, emotionally balanced people who think of Christianity as too fanatical because they aren’t familiar with liberal theologians like John Wesley.

People have been having spiritual insights from Hinduism since the time of the Beatles. It is really not that provocative. Yoda was modeled after a teacher of an Eastern religion, as well as a number of cartoons since such as Mutant Ninja Turtles, so even little kids are influenced by it. All Hindus acknowledge Jesus as an incarnation of God. Any Hindu could honestly and sincerely recite every part of the Apostle’s Creed except the two words only begotten. More than anything the lotus posture is associated with health rather than religion. Doctors frequently recommend meditation to patients with any sign of anxiety and yoga is good for the body as well as the mind.

People who are into this sort of thing are usually fairly well educated and innately liberal in their theology so it makes perfect sense that the UMC would make appeals especially to such an audience. Those are the two primary demographics for Methodist evangelism, education and liberal theology. It is perfectly targeted.

Your post implies quite strongly that people who disapprove of the yoga posture as a representation of Methodist prayer practice are either not truly Methodist, or are uneducated, or both. It also implies that most Methodists are liberal. They are not - at least not in the area where I live.

Obviously, as the OP, I do not approve of this particular representation of my faith. And, I too, am an educated Methodist.

My grandfather (born in 1896) was a Methodist minister. He was educated at Southern Methodist University. My parents are both lifelong Methodists. I was raised Methodist, spent some time as a non-denominational Christian, and have since returned to Methodism.

Though I am educated, I am not theologically liberal. I have a bachelor's degree from a large university. My father, who is not liberal either, holds a Master's degree, as does my husband (who is also a conservative Methodist). Being a conservative Methodist, by the way, does not equate to being an uneducated, backwards hillbilly who doesn't know the first thing about Methodist theology.

In your opinion, the target demographic for the Methodist Church (and this photo) is educated liberals. I have heard (though I do not have data to back this up), that the church is growing most strongly in the areas of the country which are predominately conservative. If this is true, it would seem to suggest that these types of outreach efforts are not perfectly targeted, as you suggest they are.

-Grace

[mike1reynolds]

Liberal Christianity, progressive Christianity—or liberalism within a modern Christian context—is a movement within Christianity (http://www.answers.com/topic/christianity) that is often characterized by the following features:

internal diversity of opinion
an embracing of higher criticism (http://www.answers.com/topic/higher-criticism) of the Bible (http://www.answers.com/topic/bible) with a corresponding willingness to question supernatural elements of biblical stories (e.g., the virgin birth (http://www.answers.com/topic/virgin-birth-1))
the rejection of biblical literalism and the inerrancy (http://www.answers.com/topic/inerrancy) of the Bible
the freedom to construct one's own personal view of God
broader views on salvation (http://www.answers.com/topic/salvation) than those held by conservative Christians, including universalist (http://www.answers.com/topic/universal-reconciliation) beliefs
an emphasis on inclusive fellowship and community, often applied in recent years to racial minorities, women and homosexuals
a willingness to consider and adopt viewpoints which have their roots outside of Christianity (e.g., other faith/philosophical traditions)
a willingness to combine theology with modern scientific theories
Almost precisely the same points appear at the top of the Wikipedia section on liberal theology, but further on down it refers to all the things this is lumping together:

Difficulties in definition

Diversity of opinion is a central characteristic of liberal Christianity, and one which makes it difficult to define with precision. Liberal Christianity exists within many denominations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination) throughout the Christian world and is often described as "modernism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernist_Christianity)", though it would be more accurate to describe modernism as a movement within liberal Christianity, since not all liberal Christians are modernists. The American "Christian Right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Right)" might describe it as the "Christian Left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Left)", which is also something of a misnomer: such labels are readily applied by opponents of liberal Christianity, but its adherents see it as a much broader and more inclusive movement. Because of its relations to progressive thinking, liberal Christianity is often described as Progressive Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Christianity) in an attempt to redefine it in a way that does not associate it with modernism, since postmodernist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_Christianity) views are increasingly becoming part and parcel of liberal Christian discourse. It is even problematic to draw a distinction along theological lines, at least in terms of the individual, since many who would accept the label liberal Christian hold to a mix of conservative and liberal theological positions, so there is really a continuum of views. Thus among theological liberals, some would be more liberal than others. For example, Karl Barth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth) was more conservative theologically than Rudolf Bultmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Bultmann). Even among conservatives there is a continuum. Evangelicals, for instance, are more "liberal" than fundamentalists. There is also a distinction to be made between liberal Christianity and Christian liberalism: the former usually implies a liberal theological outlook, the latter a liberal political outlook to which some theologically conservative Christians adhere. It is quite possible for someone to be liberal in their politics while at the same time holding strongly orthodox theological views. The reverse is also true, although few liberal Christians would in practice be likely to support the Religious Right.

Ultimately, the word liberal connotes a more progressive attitude towards Christianity based on individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism), in its emphasis on individual subjective experience, and liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), in its respect for the freedom of the individual to hold and express views which fall outside the boundaries of conservative orthodoxy and tradition. Disagreements between conservative and liberal Christians arise most frequently when the latter perceive that the former are exhibiting a lack of compassion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion), mercy, love and inclusiveness, and when the former perceive the latter to be abandoning essential Christian doctrines.

If you go a little further on down it gives the classical definition of liberal theology in Wesley’s time, which is of course what is being referred to when Methodism is called liberal in theology.

Liberal theology

Liberal theology is a branch of religious thinking which emerged in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, in the wake of The Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment). Like political liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) that was emerging at the same time, liberal theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology) stresses the value and importance of the individual's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual) freedom of thought and expression. Liberal theology became dominant in the mainline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline) churches in the 20th century. Although Fundamentalist Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity) has been rejected by the mainline churches, liberalism's dominance was waning by the late 20th century with the rise of the more moderate alternatives, such as Neo-orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-orthodoxy), Paleo-orthodoxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-orthodoxy) and Postmodern Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_Christianity), and more conservative movements such as Neo-evangelicalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-evangelicalism) and the Confessing movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_movement).

[mike1reynolds]

Your post implies quite strongly that people who disapprove of the yoga posture as a representation of Methodist prayer practice are either not truly Methodist, or are uneducated, or both. It also implies that most Methodists are liberal. They are not - at least not in the area where I live.No, I'm saying that you do not see the Church's broader objective here, primarily because you are not familiar with the finer points of the UMC's theological stance.

Obviously, as the OP, I do not approve of this particular representation of my faith. And, I too, am an educated Methodist.No amount of secular education is a substitute for theological knowledge in this context.

Though I am educated, I am not theologically liberal. I have a bachelor's degree from a large university. My father, who is not liberal either, holds a Master's degree, as does my husband (who is also a conservative Methodist). Being a conservative Methodist, by the way, does not equate to being an uneducated, backwards hillbilly who doesn't know the first thing about Methodist theology.You are not familiar with how the UMC views itself theologically and you are confusing politics with theology. In the late 18th century George Washington was both politically and theologically liberal, even though by modern standards he would be neither. John Wesley is in precisely the same boat. You are getting upset at my assertions which are incontrovertibly true, John Wesley was a liberal theologian in his own words, because you are confusing 18th century politics with modern politics and theology with politics.

In your opinion, the target demographic for the MethodistChurch (and this photo) is educated liberals. I have heard (though I do not have data to back this up), that the church is growing most strongly in the areas of the country which are predominately conservative. If this is true, it would seem to suggest that these types of outreach efforts are not perfectly targeted, as you suggest they are.Or it could be that someone is attempting to achieve a more balanced approach rather than letting the church go out of control on a path that would eventually fundamentally alter the basic principles that Wesley espoused, into something alien to Wesley’s way of thinking.

[alaurie]

Hi Mike :wave:

You forgot to quote this part.


Actually I was thinking of "liberal" in light of the semantic changes the word has undergone since Wesley's day.

[contriteheart]

No amount of secular education is a substitute for theological knowledge in this context.

Yeah, I'm pretty much a theological illiterate. That's why I spend my free time reading things like the Ante Nicene Fathers. I'm learning, though - slowly but surely.

-Grace

[mike1reynolds]

Yeah, I'm pretty much a theological illiterate. That's why I spend my free time reading things like the Ante Nicene Fathers. I'm learning, though - slowly but surely.I was referring to what you said about academic degrees. Going to church doesn't necessarily help either, I've learned a lot of things about Methodism recently that I never knew from growing up in a Methodist family. Obviously you've already discovered the odd fact that Methodism is the most orthodox of all Protestant religions. This in itself would seem to be a very conservative thing, so I can see why you would view Methodism as conservative, but in terms of Protestant theological views, Wesleyan Arminism is the far left and Calvinism and Reformed Christianity are the far right.

[contriteheart]

I was referring to what you said about academic degrees. Going to church doesn't necessarily help either, I've learned a lot of things about Methodism recently that I never knew from growing up in a Methodist family. Obviously you've already discovered the odd fact that Methodism is the most orthodox of all Protestant religions. This in itself would seem to be a very conservative thing, so I can see why you would view Methodism as conservative, but in terms of Protestant theological views, Wesleyan Arminism is the far left and Calvinism and Reformed Christianity are the far right.

Hi Mike,

I think the definition of conservative is what's throwing things off here. As you mentioned, I would consider Wesley conservative because his theology is very close to that of the early church fathers. However, I can see where you're coming from in putting Wesley's Arminianism and Calvin's Reformed Theology on two ends of the spectrum and calling Calvin the conservative. If we call Calvin a conservative, then I would agree that Wesley could be called a liberal.

If we are speaking morally and socially, on the other hand, I think that with Wesley's emphasis on holiness, he would have been considered as conservative as they come.

-Grace

[mike1reynolds]

I agree with everything that you said except the last statement, in which you are equating holiness exclusively with conservatism. I tend to be exactly the other way around, I view Jesus as a liberal having been opposed by a conservative establishment.

I don’t know if you believe that Napoleon and Hitler were antichrists, but if they are then one was conservative and the other liberal, so the devil is an equal opportunity defiler. However, Napoleon’s liberalism is much more alien to modern liberalism than Hitler’s conservatism is to modern conservatism. Each have strengths and weaknesses, but liberal theology is clearly superior and more difficult to distort in my opinion. I think that selflessness is the single most important Christian virtue, and this is much more emphasized in liberal theology, while being actively dismissed by conservative theology.

[mike1reynolds]

Hi Mike :wave:

You forgot to quote this part.


You're completely right. I totally missed that line and it makes my whole post irrelevant. I should have read more closely before giving a lengthy reply. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

[chocolatecheesecake]

There is a school of thought that says that our ancestor's didn't retreat from something simply because it was associated with non-Christians. Instead, they embraced it and turned it over to Christ.

Christmas and Easter are two examples in that we occupied these two pagan holidays, proclaimed them for Jesus and ended up taking them over for several centuries (consumerism seems to be taking them over from us now).

If we can take something like a yoga meditation posture and convert it into a Christian activity, maybe we can take it over as well. :)

sorrry, couldnt read more after reading this, I need to ask, so does that mean that we can edit christianity to make people feel more comfortable? Easter for example is not a christian holiday, 'It started from the name of the goddess Astarte, Chaldean goddes the queen of heaven. and was taken in as a christian holiday to adapt pagan festivals to christianity' (W.E. Vine, 1985)

It was never mentioned in the bible at all.

anyway we are not talking about easter, or atleast I am at the moment talking about adapting the christian message to make others feel better, so no I do not think we should take hinduism into christianity, or anything else for that matter, Christ is Christ what else do we need? I do not like that we (i say we as christians) try to sofen, or skew the message of the gospel, yeah i am going to shut up now lalala, final point though, by overtake, I thought of a cancer hmmm hehe