"The Younger shall serve the older"

[themuzicman]

Has anyone does any research into the idea that the "New" Covenant was actually promised first, but implemented last, similar to how Isaac was promised before Ismael was born, and how Jacob's hand appeared before Esau was born first?

Paul uses both of these examples (Romans 9 and Galatians 4(?)) to describe the Old and New Covenants...

Muz

[Wizzer]

Has anyone does any research into the idea that the "New" Covenant was actually promised first, but implemented last, similar to how Isaac was promised before Ismael was born, and how Jacob's hand appeared before Esau was born first?

Paul uses both of these examples (Romans 9 and Galatians 4(?)) to describe the Old and New Covenants...

Muz
Sure, I have read the scriptures and believe this is how these are being used, but those who accept reformed theology have been taught the doctrine of election of individuals to salvation. This means they have been taught to see many of these passages (such as those in Romans 9) from their perspective of election rather than that of a corporate perspective. They see mention of individuals and fail to understand the corporate application.

In Romans 9-11, Paul addresses his concerns for the nation of Israel, those who were chosen by God. (The first few sentences of chapter 9 set his agenda for this section.) Paul's conclusion is that the New Covenant actually preceeded the Old, and that God has the right to choose between people and nations for positions of honor and service - like choosing to give the church a more honorable position than Israel. (But this should not be taken as God saying that He has cast Israel away.) Paul clearly says that those of the Old Covenant, previously chosen to be His people, are not being cast aside by God, but rather they cast themselves aside by not accepting God's will as expressed in the new covenant of grace. It is their own refusal to accept this covenant which has excluded them. Yet through all of this, Paul still hold out the real possibility that they can repent and be grafted back into God's people.

But this should bring up a question. If they (Jews who reject Jesus) were formerly God's people, but then broken off for their unbelief, and if they can be grafted back in to God's people, then did not God's people exist both before and after the revelation of Jesus? (Stated another way, it appears they would be grafted back into something of which they were formerly a part. I would like to know how reformed theology handles this question.)

Wizzer

[heymikey80]

Has anyone does any research into the idea that the "New" Covenant was actually promised first, but implemented last, similar to how Isaac was promised before Ismael was born, and how Jacob's hand appeared before Esau was born first?

Paul uses both of these examples (Romans 9 and Galatians 4(?)) to describe the Old and New Covenants...

Muz
I'm sure there's more than this, but there's some discussion in John Murray's "The Imputation of Adam's Sin" related to Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15.

You can definitely get some direct connections with the covenants in Gal 3:15-19.

I think I've seen some Web postings about typology somewhere regarding this too.

[LamorakDesGalis]

Has anyone does any research into the idea that the "New" Covenant was actually promised first, but implemented last, similar to how Isaac was promised before Ismael was born, and how Jacob's hand appeared before Esau was born first?

Paul uses both of these examples (Romans 9 and Galatians 4(?)) to describe the Old and New Covenants...

Muz

Yes, the promises found in the Abrahamic Covenant are essentially expanded in the Mosaic covenant, the Davidic covenant and the new covenant of Jer 31. In Galatians 4 Paul linked together the Abrahamic covenant with new covenant promises - such as reception of the Holy Spirit. He also said that the Mosaic covenant - though it came later than the Abrahamic covenant - did not set aside the former (Abrahamic) covenant. That is, the Abrahamic covenant has "remained in effect" even through Paul's day, and the blessings Christians experience today are being worked out through some of the blessings in the new covenant.


Lamorak Des Galis

[Jerrysch]

Has anyone does any research into the idea that the "New" Covenant was actually promised first, but implemented last, similar to how Isaac was promised before Ismael was born, and how Jacob's hand appeared before Esau was born first?

Paul uses both of these examples (Romans 9 and Galatians 4(?)) to describe the Old and New Covenants...

Muz

Where in Scripture is the New Covenant first spoken of?