Lutheranism (some help)?

[paleodoxy]

Hi, folks:

Excuse my ignorance here, but I'm coming from the Anglican side of the aisle, and am woefully bereft of anything resembling a solid working knowledge of modern Lutheran theology/politics.

For those of you here more in tune with the inner workings of Lutheraism, I am curious about a few things:

What does a typical liturgical service look like? Do all Lutherans worship liturgically? Do all Lutherans follow the episcopal model of bishop succession? Are Lutherans baptismal regenerations, for the most part? Are all Lutherans consubstantiationists? Must one profess a "con" view of the Eucharist in order to partake in a Lutheran church? How often do Lutherans celebrate communion? Is paedocommunion allowed?

What constitute the main Lutheran church bodies/denominations in the U.S. (both liberal/conservative)? What are their respective positions on abortion/women's ordination/homosexuality?

Are there any charasmatic Lutherans?

This is a tall order, sorry!

I'll be thankful for what I can get :)

God bless,
Jonathan (paleodoxy)

[Melethiel]

What does a typical liturgical service look like?

Anywhere from high to low.

Do all Lutherans worship liturgically?

They're SUPPOSED to. *glares at the contemporary people*

Do all Lutherans follow the episcopal model of bishop succession?

No. Among those that don't are the WELS and LCMS. Among those that do are the Church of Sweden, ELCA, and Ukrainian Lutherans.

Are Lutherans baptismal regenerations, for the most part?

Absolutely.

Are all Lutherans consubstantiationists?

None are.

Must one profess a "con" view of the Eucharist in order to partake in a Lutheran church?

See above.

How often do Lutherans celebrate communion?

Anywhere from every week to once a month.

Is paedocommunion allowed?

For the most part, no.

What constitute the main Lutheran church bodies/denominations in the U.S. (both liberal/conservative)?

Liberal: ELCA Conservative: LCMS, WELS, ELS

[RayJGentry]

the ELCA ordaines women, but not homosexuals

[paleodoxy]

Melethiel,

Thanks for being so helpful! Your answer on consubstantiationism greatly surprises me, though! I thought many Lutherans still held to Luther's position. (Or would Lutherans consider this perception to be a misconstrued, outside perception?)

I take it you support high liturgies and weekly communion?

Regarding the "conservative" Lutheran branches you mention: what defines conservative for a conservative Lutheran on abortion/women's ordination/homosexuality?

Some women ordination folks who oppose homosexuality would consider themselves conservative, for example, even though most conservatives oppose the ordination of women.

[paleodoxy]

One more thing:

What would (and this is for the high church, conservative evangelical Lutherans here) substantially in your minds (doctrinally speaking) hinder a union between your churches and the more evangelical wing of Anglicanism?

[Protoevangel]

A few questions that weren't fully answered:

Abortion:

ELCA, officially against most abortions, declares moral in the cases of rape/incest/extreme defect.

LCMS/WELS.etc., abortion is a sin. God forgives us our sin when we repent.

Women's ordination:

See Ray's post above for stance of ELCA.

LCMS/WELS.etc, no women't ordination.

Homosexuality:

ELCA: Has been trying to get their oficial position (see Ray's post above) changed.

LCMS/WELS, etc., Believe that homosexual activity is intrinsically sinful. Also rejects the persecution and ostracism of homosexuals.


Are there any charasmatic Lutherans?

I have seen them in the ELCA.

Heard of them, but never seen any in the LCMS.

Unsure about other synods.



Or would Lutherans consider this perception to be a misconstrued, outside perception?

Bingo. We hold to a Sacramental union. We reject any description or rationalization of the process. Jesus said, "This is my Body", and left it at that. The orthodox Lutheran does the same. There is a popular statement that Jesus' Bodt is in, with, and under the elements, which is good and fine, as long as one does not seek to further rationalise the process and elements.



Regarding the "conservative" Lutheran branches you mention: what defines conservative for a conservative Lutheran on abortion/women's ordination/homosexuality?

See above. ELCA position generally considered "liberal," while LCMS/WELS position generally considered "conservative."



Some women ordination folks who oppose homosexuality would consider themselves conservative, for example, even though most conservatives oppose the ordination of women.

Much like someone who has only killed two or three hundred unborn human babies would probably consider himself/herself more moral than someone who is in prison for killing half a dozen people.



What would (and this is for the high church, conservative evangelical Lutherans here) substantially in your minds (doctrinally speaking) hinder a union between your churches and the more evangelical wing of Anglicanism?

ELCA, already in "full communion" with Episcopalians. Would probably love to snuggle in bed with Anglicanism as well.

LCMS/WELS, etc., A good first step would be full doctrinal agreement with the Lutheran Confessions: http://www.bookofconcord.org

[Melethiel]

I take it you support high liturgies and weekly communion?

Am I really that obvious? :P

[RayJGentry]

thanks for your thorough answers dan, but lets not even get me started about the CCM with the episcopal church...that was the first thing i disagreed with that made me a rebel in the ELCA. if you have any more questions about "Lutherans" in general, keep asking, and if you have any about the ELCA, i'd love to help.

Here's a thread in our forum about consubstantion. should clear up any questions you have regarding it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2800467-consubstantiation-lutheran-teaching.html

[LutherNut]

I take it you support high liturgies and weekly communion?

Am I really that obvious? :P


I knew I liked you... :thumbsup: ;)

[tschenks]

Abortion:

LCMS/WELS.etc., abortion is a sin. God forgives us our sin when we repent.

The way you listed both of those side-by-side in the same paragraph I don't agree with. It makes it sound like you've worded it "abortion is a sin ... but God forgives us for it anyway." That's just not right. Why do you have forgiveness listed as an aside to abortion?

[Protoevangel]

The way you listed both of those side-by-side in the same paragraph I don't agree with. It makes it sound like you've worded it "abortion is a sin ... but God forgives us for it anyway." That's just not right. Why do you have forgiveness listed as an aside to abortion?
If I made it sound as if there was something special and less sinful or less condemnable about abortion, then I ask you for your forgiveness. That was not my intention at all. Perhaps I could have worded it better, to make it less appear as if there is some special leniency in regard to the murdering of God's innocents.

In my time with the ELCA, the most common strawman argument used against me and others who stood against abortion was the suggestion that we singled out these issues (correctly spelled s - i - n - s), while ignoring or minimizing other issues.

But the fact of the matter is, women are often the victim of the abortion industry just as well as their murdered children are. The true villians are the abortion doctors, and organizations such as planned parenthood (sic). For the woman who has been lied to, and told that it was acceptable to get rid of this "mass of tissue", and who later realizes that she participated in the destruction of an innocent human life, the effects can be absolutely devistating. This woman has already been crushed by the Law. What this one needs to hear is the Gospel, to be pointed to the forgiveness that is in Christ. This is the one whom I most often encounter. This is the one my message has been tailored to encourage.

So, it is absolutely an evil and sinful act that will condemn one to Hell, to murder an innocent preborn child. This is the Law that anyone considering abortion, has has had an abortion, or performs abortion needs to hear.

There is forgiveness in Jesus Christ is the Gospel that anyone who has been broken by the Law needs to hear.

[Tetzel]

Dan was correct in proclaiming God's forgiveness. It is the message of the gospel which gives us life. We should always remember God's forgiveness and be thankful and rejoice in his mercy.

BTW, there LCMS webpage provides one exception for the ban on abortion. My great grandmother, who was in an LCMS church, nearly had to abort my grandfather when his large head got lodged in her birth canal during birth. After many hours of labor it became clear that if he didn't come out soon she was going to die, but fortunately on the last attempt to bear him he came out

Q. What is the Missouri Synod's view of abortion?
A. The LCMS believes that abortion is contrary to God's Word and "is not a moral option except, except as a tragically unavoidable byproduct of medical procedures necessary to prevent the death of another human being, viz., the mother" (1979 Res. 3-02A). Official synodical resolutions and other materials on this topic are available from the Synod's Commission on Theology and Church Relations (CTCR) (http://www.lcms.org/pages/default.asp?NavID=79).

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2120