Anything Is Possible, but Does God "Use" Evil?

[Matthan]

This thread is a response to a request to explain how God uses "evil" for His purpose(s). I had mentioned lying spirits, which are mentioned as being in Heaven with Him, but that go down to earth to subvert Ahab. This situation is found in 1st Kings 22:20-23, which reads,
"20. And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. 22. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

Oh, and someone else questioned God's permission, consent or command in the use of evil to serve His Holy purpose. The last verse above demonstrates how He used evil (spoken in this case), but not the why, which I do not pretend to understand except to state that He does not appear to interfere with anyone's use of their own "free will."

And let's not forget that God also used "evil spirits" to trouble Saul, and David's harp playing caused them to leave Saul in peace. But, I do not remember if they came from Heaven or not.

One of the problems with humans as they attempt to consider the nature of God is to think of that nature in human terms. That is a mistake. The truth is that we mere mortals have no capacity to understand the true and complete nature of God. He is infinite in all of His aspects, and we are finite in all of our abilities. Therefore our only hope is to attempt to understand the most basic concepts of his nature.

If anyone would like me to expand on that statement, just let me know, and I will try to do it.

Matthan

[Flynmonkie]

Matthan, thanks for the clarification. I would like to do some research on this before I comment.

I do agree that God is not the author of confusion, yet He allows it, even in that evil He will be glorified. So I can agree that God will use evil in this sense. I believe we are on the same page there.

But having evil spirits in heaven is a whammy? So, I am trying to understand your perspective and why on this, as well as my own -- before I engage in a comment. More specifically, I have never heard this translated in this manner. But it rang the fishy bell over here for sure. ;)

Once I take a look at the context of the verses a bit more closely I’ll get back with you on this. I would too be interested in others thoughts surrounding this.

[Sword-In-Hand]

I know very little about this subject, so I won't pretend I do. However, I have read some viewpoints concerning these happenings and it does make me wonder. It's a very well thoughout explanation if nothing else.

It seems that there are those who are convinced that Satan and the angels were not cast out of heaven before man was created. They believe that this event didn't happen until sometime after Micah was written. These beliefs state that Satan was made to be God's tempter, explaining that God is light, in Him is goodness and He Himself cannot tempt anyone, so thus Satan was made and given this job. And remembering that God did not make Satan for evil purposes. Apparently angels have the will to turn against God just like we do. So until Satan's rebellion, his job was to be the evil spirit to discombobulate people in order for God's will to be done. It's deep and I can't write it all out, but it does make you wonder and wonder in a way that doesn't put God as the bad guy.

And we have to remember the OT was a different time than now. Surely we would think of evil if some nation rose against the world, took it over, killed everyone not of their tribe, took their money all in the name of God we . But that's what the Children of Israel were told to do and these orders were from God, so was it evil?

But I like your explanation of understanding God. I'm glad I can't understand Him. I'm not going to say He uses evil things to bring about glory, because I can't associate that word with Him, but rather I'll say that God can take whatever situation that we-who are evil- make and use it for the greater good.

[MrJim]

Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

[ZiSunka]

All the commentaries agree that this passage can't be taken literally.

First of all, it's a given that God cannot sin. It's incompatible with who he is. If God sins, we are all hopelessly lost because he would not have the authority to die in our place--he would have to die for his own sin just like any other person.

Lying is a sin--it's right in the 10 commandments--do not bear false witness.

Next, God is already perfectly wise and doesn't neet to ask his angels and spirit servants what to do in any situation. In this passage, he is asking, "What should I do, what should I do?" Many beings offer advice, and God acts like he doesn't know what to do. Finally, a demon comes and offers to lie to Ahab's prophets to make Ahab attack. If we believe that God is sometimes confused about what to do and needs to get advice from demons, then we don't have much of a God.

So how are we to understand this passage that seems so incompatible with the nature of God?

In context, this passage is a conversation between Ahab and one of his advisors. The advisor is telling Ahab what he saw in a vision, he claims he saw God talking to his advisors about how to destroy Ahab, and that they had decided to send a lying spirit to the prophet so that the prophet would advise Ahab to do things that would lead to his death. It's not an actual conversation between God and some advisors, it's Ahab's advisor Micaiah telling him what he thought he saw in a vision, a false vision, since God can't do the things he is accused of doing here.

I repeat, this is a report of a vision one of Ahab's prophets had, and is not an actual occurance of what happened in heaven.

[Matthan]

But having evil spirits in heaven is a whammy?
Flynmonkie, I never said that evil spirits were in heaven, only that God could use them to serve His purpose. And, the spirit that stood before Him and stated he would become a lying spirit to subvert Ahab was a good (heavenly) spirit and servant of the Lord. That act of lying by the spirit also served God's purpose.

More importantly, was this a "brainstorming session" with God and His servants? It may appear that way from the scriptural text, but I personally doubt it. God is omniscient, knowing all things that were, and that are, and that ever will be. Therefore, He already knew that one of His spirits would stand before Him and suggest that becoming a lying spirit in the mouths of the false prophets of Ahab would be a way to subvert Ahab. God did not first suggest the use of evil as a tool, but He permitted the evil to be done to serve Him.

Can God Himself do "evil". Yes, He certainly can, but only if it serves His holy purpose. I will explain this better shortly and demonstrate where you can find in Scripture that God can do evil. Just remember that God, in His infinite ability, can do anything. By our meager standards and limited abilities, some of the things that God does are "evil." But, are they evil to Him? Or, are they just additional parts of His capabilities as an omnipotent God? I believe we can never know the answer to that question while we are living on earth. We may or may not be permitted to know those answers when we are in Heaven serving Him. that remains to be seen and experienced.

Personally I believe that God does not permit anything "evil" in nature to either stand before Him or even exist anywhere in Heaven, including on a temporary or "visitation" basis. That is why I (again personally) have such a hard time with what we find in Job, and Satan standing before the Lord along with the "sons of God." Would Satan, the most evil entity in all of creation, be permitted to come (back) into Heaven and literally stand in the presence of God? While anything is possible with God, I personally do not believe He would have allowed such a defilement of His holiness to occur. Still, since we read about it in Job, it certainly did occur. Therefore, the only conclusion someone as scripturally and spiritually ignorant as me can jump to is that Satan had not fallen from God's grace at that time (in Job). But, I also always keep in mind two very important facts. One is that I am a mere mortal with extremely limited capabilities for thinking about God and His actions. And second, God really can do anything.

Now, for the more important question of whether or not God can do evil (which is entirely different than permitting evil to exist in His presence, by the way). Yes, of course He can, because He can do anything. In fact the Bible (Old Testament) is simply chucked full of examples where He does do evil things. Think flood, or Sodom, or near countless battles, or enslavements of the Hebrews. These are all "evil" things that God caused to happen, and each one of them served His Holy purpose.

The Bible also tells us that God can change His Holy Mind, and did on at least one occasion. In Exodus 32:14 we read where He first proclaimed to destroy all of the Israelites and raise up a new nation using Moses as the patriarch. But then Moses talked Him out of that course of action, convincing Him that partial destruction of the Israelites would be better. God agreed with Moses, and "repented" of the evil which He sought to do to Israel. So, why do we read about an account such as this in Scripture? Obviously it is to serve God's purpose in some way. But how? Personally, and keeping in mind the absolute fact of God's omniscience (see verse 9) as well as His omnipotence and omnipresence, I can only come up with one logical explanation. First, look at the context of this situation. Moses "delayed" in coming down from the mountain. Why? It was obviously the will of God that Moses was delayed, but to what purpose? Could it have been because God already knew what the Israelites would do during their leader's absence? But, for what purpose? I believe God wanted to teach Moses that he, a mere mortal and slow of speech, could really be a mighty leader of God's chosen people. (Remember that Moses had pretty much relied on Aaron as the main spokesman up to this point) Moses never asked God for "extra" wisdom as Soloman did, but Moses did not have to. God already knew that Moses had ample wisdom, but up to that point was fairly weak in the leadership department. And there was a tremendous amount of work that needed to be done (receiving the Laws of God, leading the people through the wilderness, etc), which would require a strong leader (check out verses 19 to 32). God, by His own holy action, taught Moses how to think as a leader and lead with a heavy hand.

I've gotten pretty windy here, and I am sorry about that.

Matthan

[Flynmonkie]

Ok, I did some research. I have heard the same understanding as SIH from some of my lofty thinking Theo friends. I just buzz out when they talk about Nelphium etc..I wouldn’t know if pre-biblical account, nor full account of what happened But Satan WAS cast down for a reason. SO it must have been that He “sinned” in heaven. Matten, the way you posed thisset off a caution for me because I remember that A.) God is not the author of confusion B.) There is no sin allowed in heaven. So I had to run around figuring this stuff out. This is what I see. IT seems to fall in line with what I stated earlier, God does not cause evil, but evil can be used to glorify. So God does not cause the lie come from a man, but the lie can be turned to a positive for good.

1 Kings 22:20-23 (King James Version)
20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee

21.) A spirit= The Spirit Heb ruach
22.) Thou Shalt- Illustrating 2 Thess 2:9-12, Ezek 14:9 “I have deceived”= I have permitted it. This is quite in harmony with Prov. 12:22. That refers to the sphere of Gods Grace; this is to the sphere of His judgment. We are governed by His word not by His ways. Prov12:22 Proverbs 12:22 refers to the world of men. This is to the world of spirits.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (King James Version)
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Ezekiel 14:9 (King James Version)
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

9.) Have deceived= Have permitted him to be deceived i.e. as judicial punishment for his own deception of the people.

Proverbs 12:22 (King James Version)
22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Most of my notes are in the companion Bible and indexes, I have left a few here, but I will leave links to pdf files of the bible which might help in understanding. In addition, the appendixes are a comprehensive exegesis of text which travel a bit beyond hermeneutics.
The companion Bible condensed:
http://levendwater.org/companion/The%20Companion%20Bible%20-%20Bullinger/index.htm
http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/
Appendixes to the Companion Bible:
http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/Ap/Ap_List.htm

[Flynmonkie]

Flynmonkie, I never said that evil spirits were in heaven, only that God could use them to serve His purpose. And, the spirit that stood before Him and stated he would become a lying spirit to subvert Ahab was a good (heavenly) spirit and servant of the Lord. That act of lying by the spirit also served God's purpose.

I had mentioned lying spirits, which are mentioned as being in Heaven with Him, but that go down to earth to subvert Ahab.
This is what I am referring to, similar to the phrasing in the other post..:wave: