B/A Opinions on the Israel/Lebanon Conflict

[MrJim]

Another day in the Middle East or the beginning of WW3?:confused:

[aReformedPatriot]

I don't believe it is the beginning of WWIII.

Honestly, I wish the US would get out of the UN, maintain a strong military and return to Jefferson's ideal of, "commerce with all nations, alliances with none."

I also think Israel is correct in what its doing.

[ZiSunka]

I think anytime human beings seek to cause wholesale suffering and destruction, it delights satan and sorrows God.

[Matthan]

World War III, which I also believe is the beginning of the end of the world as the devil knows it, actually began on the same day, and at the exact same hour, minute and second, that the Iranians announced it when they invaded the United States by occupying that country's embassy. It has been ongoing, if somewhat intermittently, ever since. We can see some of the battles, with the most outstanding of them (for most Americans) occurring on September 11, 2001.

How do we know this? Because all of the conflicts we have witnessed are centered on, in or around Jerusalem and Israel. God's Holy City has always been the center, in one way or another, of all spiritual wars.

The more important question for us to ask is whether or not this is part of God's ultimate plan? Of course it is. Everything that happens on earth is part of His plan, and done with His permission or consent if not His direction [permissive versus efficacious events]. (Boy, you should read my three page essay on predestination where I really get to use a lot of those big words!)

Has anyone ever wondered why the whole world, with just a few exceptions, seems to hate Israel? It is because the Hebrews disobeyed God when He gave them a very specific set of instructions. What were those instructions? Kill em' all, or else! They didn't, so He has cursed them for that little bit of disobedience. He told them He would do so, and He did it. God never breaks a promise, don't you know.

Matthan

[ZiSunka]

Everything that happens on earth is part of His plan, and done with His permission or consent if not His direction [permissive versus efficacious events].

Including rape?

[aReformedPatriot]

Including rape?

Yes LL, including rape BUT (and this is a big "but") rape is obviously against his will as he hates all that is wicked. In his sovereignty God has allowed sin to occur because ultimately he can work good out of evil. Why he lets things like this occur is a mystery but we do know that God is over all things, in control of all things, and that he promises to work good out of bad whether the effects come immediately or over the long-term.

[ZiSunka]

Yes LL, including rape BUT (and this is a big "but") rape is obviously against his will as he hates all that is wicked. In his sovereignty God has allowed sin to occur because ultimately he can work good out of evil. Why he lets things like this occur is a mystery but we do know that God is over all things, in control of all things, and that he promises to work good out of bad whether the effects come immediately or over the long-term.

Allowing something to happen and consenting to it are two different things.

God doesn't direct people to rape someone. He may allow it to happen for his own reasons, but he does NOT direct someone to rape another person. No one has ever raped by God's command.

[aReformedPatriot]

Allowing something to happen and consenting to it are two different things.

God doesn't direct people to rape someone. He may allow it to happen for his own reasons, but he does NOT direct someone to rape another person. No one has ever raped by God's command.

I never said that. :)

People have killed because of God's command though. And he raises nations and brings them down according to his will. Thus hearts are hardened and softened so that his purposes may be accomplished.

[ZiSunka]

I never said that. :)

People have killed because of God's command though. And he raises nations and brings them down according to his will. Thus hearts are hardened and softened so that his purposes may be accomplished.

But I was responding to a poster's statement that EVERYTHING happens by God's consent, permission or direction. That statement is wrong. Plenty of things happen without God's consent, permission or direction, and those things are called sin. God allows sin, but he doesn't give consent, permission or direction for us to sin.

[aReformedPatriot]

But I was responding to a poster's statement that EVERYTHING happens by God's consent, permission or direction. That statement is wrong. Plenty of things happen without God's consent, permission or direction, and those things are called sin. God allows sin, but he doesn't give consent, permission or direction for us to sin.

This is where I would disagree with you. I agree with you that God does not force us to sin. But God does give his divine consent for sin to take place. Otherwise sin would not occur. Thus the why part is truly a mystery because we cannot know the mind of God. Consider the following words:

"This is the meaning of the statement, "The works of the Lord are great, well-considered in all his acts of will"--that in a strange and ineffable fashion even that which is done against his will [contra eius voluntatem] is not done without his will [praeter eius voluntatem]." (Enchirisdion, ed. and trans. Albert C. Outler, vol. 7 in the Libary of Christian Classics series (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 399).

[ZiSunka]

This is where I would disagree with you. I agree with you that God does not force us to sin. But God does give his divine consent for sin to take place. Otherwise sin would not occur. Thus the why part is truly a mystery because we cannot know the mind of God. Consider the following words:

"This is the meaning of the statement, "The works of the Lord are great, well-considered in all his acts of will"--that in a strange and ineffable fashion even that which is done against his will [contra eius voluntatem] is not done without his will [praeter eius voluntatem]." (Enchirisdion, ed. and trans. Albert C. Outler, vol. 7 in the Libary of Christian Classics series (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 399).

Ah! So you are a calvinist?

[ZiSunka]

This is where I would disagree with you. I agree with you that God does not force us to sin. But God does give his divine consent for sin to take place. Otherwise sin would not occur. Thus the why part is truly a mystery because we cannot know the mind of God. Consider the following words:

"This is the meaning of the statement, "The works of the Lord are great, well-considered in all his acts of will"--that in a strange and ineffable fashion even that which is done against his will [contra eius voluntatem] is not done without his will [praeter eius voluntatem]." (Enchirisdion, ed. and trans. Albert C. Outler, vol. 7 in the Libary of Christian Classics series (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 399).

The silence of God should not be confused with the consent of God:

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.' Jer 32:35 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=jer+32:35&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)

Apparently, God does NOT consent to every kind of sin, in fact, the thought that God consents to ANY sin is incompatible with the holy nature of God.

Can you provide even one passage that says God gives humans permission to sin or commands them to sin?

[Matthan]

LL, EVERYTHING does originate with God. He created, EVERYTHING, including both good and evil, to serve His Holy purpose. To deny His creation of EVERYTHING is to deny His omniscience and omnipotence, which is to deny God Himself. That is never a smart thing to do.

What you are mixing up is human free will with God's perfect nature. By way of example, a man has the opportunity to rape a woman. Whether he does so or not is a function of his own free will. God created man, so He also created man's free will. God knows whether that person will commit the rape, or not. He neither encourages nor discourages the rape, but He still knows what will happen. Remember that He is no respecter of persons.

Matthan

[ZiSunka]

LL, EVERYTHING does originate with God. He created, EVERYTHING, including both good and evil, to serve His Holy purpose. To deny His creation of EVERYTHING is to deny His omniscience and omnipotence, which is to deny God Himself. That is never a smart thing to do.

What you are mixing up is human free will with God's perfect nature. By way of example, a man has the opportunity to rape a woman. Whether he does so or not is a function of his own free will. God created man, so He also created man's free will. God knows whether that person will commit the rape, or not. He neither encourages nor discourages the rape, but He still knows what will happen. Remember that He is no respecter of persons.

Matthan

You are very confused. God, who is holy, does not ordain, consent to, or command humans to do evil. To say he does shows that you do not understand holiness.

[SonOfThunder]

it is a well known fact (getting back to the basics) that Israelie Gov have historically always traded off lots of prisoners in order to get back their own men. They do everything in their power to get their people back. Iran knew this and have decided to not comply and so therefore have lost many people and devastated many lives.

James

[aReformedPatriot]

The silence of God should not be confused with the consent of God:

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.' Jer 32:35 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=jer+32:35&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)

Apparently, God does NOT consent to every kind of sin, in fact, the thought that God consents to ANY sin is incompatible with the holy nature of God.

Can you provide even one passage that says God gives humans permission to sin or commands them to sin?

We're having a communication breakdown, I think. I told you God does not command anyone to sin nor does he tempt people with sin. The Bible is clear on that. He does allow sin to occur which is why the Israelites constructed the high places of Baal. Jeremiah is simply stating that the Lord is innocent in this matter and that the sin is entirely on the hands of the Israelites. The fact that they still did it is evidence of God's divine allowance of this action. The act is against his will but did not occur outside of his will either. The Lord is simply choosing to tarry in lieu of the sin nature of man. So this is a good passage to cite but one that I think you've misapplied.

Why is God's mysterious allowance of sin to occur an indictment against God's holy character? Are you saying that if God allows sin to occur then God is indeed sinful? Is sin just an inevitable factor in the created realm for all eternity?

[MrJim]

Yeah, LE & LL this has been a nice diversion--why do you do it to me? I NEVER derail your threads...:P

[ZiSunka]

We're having a communication breakdown, I think. I told you God does not command anyone to sin nor does he tempt people with sin. The Bible is clear on that. He does allow sin to occur which is why the Israelites constructed the high places of Baal. Jeremiah is simply stating that the Lord is innocent in this matter and that the sin is entirely on the hands of the Israelites. The fact that they still did it is evidence of God's divine allowance of this action. The act is against his will but did not occur outside of his will either. The Lord is simply choosing to tarry in lieu of the sin nature of man. So this is a good passage to cite but one that I think you've misapplied.

Why is God's mysterious allowance of sin to occur an indictment against God's holy character? Are you saying that if God allows sin to occur then God is indeed sinful? Is sin just an inevitable factor in the created realm for all eternity?

Now you are misunderstanding. God allows sin, but he doesn't command it, yes. That in itself is not an indictment against God. If one were to ascert that everything that happens, even evil, is done with the permission and command of God, then THAT would be an accusation against God.

Clearly the passage I cited says that God does not command anyone to do evil. It never even enters his mind to command us to do evil.

Once again, I must state that God's silence MUST NOT be confused with his consent. That he doesn't stretch out his hand and prevent every sin is an exercise of allowing us to have freewill, but it should not be conscrued that God uses evil means to get what he wants or to manipulate people into sinning. Good comes out of evil, but good is not dependent on evil for its existence.

[MrJim]

Ah! So you are a calvinist?

^_^ Are you kidding? He's not a real good calvinist yet since he still hangs on to believer's baptism, but maybe the presbyterians will get him yet--then he'll be bona fide:thumbsup:!

[aReformedPatriot]

Yeah, LE & LL this has been a nice diversion--why do you do it to me? I NEVER derail your threads...:P

I have to goto work now thus I will simply say that LL started it! :cool:

But I do appoligize.

[ZiSunka]

Yeah, LE & LL this has been a nice diversion--why do you do it to me? I NEVER derail your threads...:P

Sorry. :sorry:

It's hard for me to let statements like, "Everything that happens, even evil acts, happen by the permission, consent or commandment of God," go by unchallenged.

Back on topic: War is the playground of satan. Bombs are the toys of satan.

[MrJim]

Sorry. :sorry:

It's hard for me to let statements like, "Everything that happens, even evil acts, happen by the permission, consent or commandment of God," go by unchallenged.

Back on topic: War is the playground of satan. Bombs are the toys of satan.

Oh don't let me stop you--I thought it an odd statement myself. You are handling it wonderfully.

[MrJim]

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78725&stc=1&d=1152934026

BOOM--wonder if it's air or arty?

[Matthan]

You are very confused. God, who is holy, does not ordain, consent to, or command humans to do evil. To say he does shows that you do not understand holiness.

You accuse me wrongly, LL. I did not state that God ordained, consented to or commanded humans to do evil. I stated He created evil, and we humans have the ability of free will to either do good or evil. He does not cause us to sin, but He does permit us to sin, or not. And, since He created evil, then we can logically presume that He also permits evil to occur, which therefore has to be by His permission, consent or command.

And, with respect to my statement that God created evil, check out Isaiah 45:5-7, which reads,
" I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
His words, not mine.

And yes, He definitely uses what we might consider to be evil to accomplish His Holy plan. The Bible tells us about evil spirits, and lying spirits, (at least some of them were in Heaven with Him) all serving God by their "evilness."

Matthan

[MrJim]

SP's (self propelled howitzers)-can't tell if they are 155mm or 8". When I was in the USMC the unit I was with used towed howitzers-pulled behind a truck. SP's were considered much cooler.

http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78727&stc=1&d=1152935850

[Flynmonkie]

And yes, He definitely uses what we might consider to be evil to accomplish His Holy plan. The Bible tells us about evil spirits, and lying spirits, (at least some of them were in Heaven with Him) all serving God by their "evilness."

Matthan
Ok, :eek: that one your gonna have to explain to me:scratch: .... But you might just take it to another thread of it's own rather than continuing to derail this one.;)

Sorry Menno:sorry:

[arunma]

OK, back to the issue at hand (so that I can get back in Menno's good graces). I think that the media sensationalizes too many things these days. If this were happening in, say, Indonesia, no one would claim that this is the prelude World War III. Because of modern dispensationalist end-time fanaticism, I think that people have gotten the idea that the end of the world is at hand, and that it will start in the Middle East. So every time a bomb goes off in the vicinity of Israel, WWIII is expected.

For all we know, we may have many more world wars before the second advent of Christ. Or it could happen without any more world wars. For that matter, we may have a poor understanding of Biblical apocalyptic literature, and perhaps the end times may not include chaos in the Middle East. So to make a short story long, I'm not cashing out my stock portfolio and heading for the hills, because I don't have any reason to believe that the end of the world is at hand. That, and I don't have a stock portfolio (though I would like to get one soon).

As to the political issue, I do not believe that Christians are theologically obligated to support Israel, nor do I believe that Jews are a chosen people, nor do I believe that Israel has any special role whatsoever to play in the end times, nor will my faith in Christ be affected if Israel is wiped off the map next week. Christians ought to work for peace for all people, and we ought not to show favoritism to any specific nation. That said, I do think that all nations have the right to defend themselves against outside aggressors, so I believe that Israel is right to defend itself. And to be honest, I wouldn't shed many tears if I saw a few Islamic governments toppled. Perhaps it is time for America to let Israel loose from the shakles that we have imposed upon her?

One other thing. Like Mark, I think there is some wisdom to the foreign policy of America's founders. Foreign alliances aren't the best idea, especially when dealing with Islam. By supporting Israel, we invite Muslims to hate and to attack us. Israel is a friendly nation to America, and for that we ought to encourage the rest of the Middle East to respect their sovereignty. At the same time, we have to realize that our friendship with this state will incur the wrath of Muslim nations. What a fine line we must walk between protecting our friends, and protecting ourselves.

[Flynmonkie]

Sounds to me like everyone is taking positions such as the Hezbollah; including the US in varying ways. I am still not so sure I agree with the thought – an eye for an eye, which is essentially what it boils down to. I took this political science course on the theology behind it, and my professor is a firm believer of “taking” the bad apples out, he feels it is the only way to eliminate a situation at times. He is a well-studied Christian with this belief. More and more I see Christians with this attitude and I just cannot totally grasp it. I do believe adults need parenting at times, consequence for action, but it seems it is too easy to go to an end all consequence of all end alls. :(

[aReformedPatriot]

^_^ Are you kidding? He's not a real good calvinist yet since he still hangs on to believer's baptism, but maybe the presbyterians will get him yet--then he'll be bona fide:thumbsup:!

Unfortunately all of John Calvin's words are not inspired as infant baptism is a crock, IMO. See my profile quote.

[MrJim]

Unfortunately all of John Calvin's words are not inspired as infant baptism is a crock, IMO. See my profile quote.

I bet you and the guys at Semper Reformada have some interesting discussions...

[arunma]

I bet you and the guys at Semper Reformada have some interesting discussions...

Mark doesn't spend much time there (BTW Mark, you should come by sometime), but I certainly have some interesting discussions. Just yesterday when someone claimed Saint Augustine as a Presbyterian, I had to correct this misunderstanding, and inform them that he was a confused Reformed Baptist.

[MrJim]

Sounds to me like everyone is taking positions such as the Hezbollah; including the US in varying ways. I am still not so sure I agree with the thought – an eye for an eye, which is essentially what it boils down to. I took this political science course on the theology behind it, and my professor is a firm believer of “taking” the bad apples out, he feels it is the only way to eliminate a situation at times. He is a well-studied Christian with this belief. More and more I see Christians with this attitude and I just cannot totally grasp it. I do believe adults need parenting at times, consequence for action, but it seems it is too easy to go to an end all consequence of all end alls. :(

"Taking the bad apples out"

So, like, maybe political assassinations are justified? Gov't supported coup with a flag-wrapped cross stamping a big OK with us & Jesus?

Smacks of the those Dominion Theology guys--your professor's name isn't Rushdooney, is it?

[Sword-In-Hand]

"Taking the bad apples out."

That sounds like good ole Kentucky theology. Put a hole where Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq used to be and problem solved.

I don't agree with the above.:P War is going to be part of this worlds existence until Jesus comes back. That's something we all are going to have to come to terms with. Just wars, unjust wars will never stop.

Disagreeing with some here, I do believe that Israel has a very important role to play conerning God's plan. After studying Biblical and secular history concerning Israel, I see no reason to believe otherwise. God isn't finished with it yet. I don't necessarily believe this is going to be the start of WW3, but it could be. Don't know.

[Flynmonkie]

"Taking the bad apples out"

So, like, maybe political assassinations are justified? Gov't supported coup with a flag-wrapped cross stamping a big OK with us & Jesus?

Smacks of the those Dominion Theology guys
No, actually I understand his perspective. He is a very intereseting man, and very well studied. Actually, pretty great guy. When viewing historically what has had to finally happen to eliminate those whom are evil, such as Hitler? Swift and final measures seem to be the only answer. Nuke em and be done with it. He was delighted that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was "taken out" and I am not so sure how I feel about that. I see his point. But I have yet to find comfort in that solution other than I am not the one confronted directly with the decision. Would I do it to protect? Probably. Would I do it to someone that just wasn't very nice, absolutely not. There does seem to be a level of evil that is beyond just normal everyday mean. :scratch:

[MrJim]

No, actually I understand his perspective. He is a very intereseting man, and very well studied. Actually, pretty great guy. When viewing historically what has had to finally happen to eliminate those whom are evil, such as Hitler? Swift and final measures seem to be the only answer. Nuke em and be done with it. He was delighted that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was "taken out" and I am not so sure how I feel about that. I see his point. But I have yet to find comfort in that solution other than I am not the one confronted directly with the decision. Would I do it to protect? Probably. Would I do it to someone that just wasn't very nice, absolutely not. There does seem to be a level of evil that is beyond just normal everyday mean. :scratch:

Shouldn't we look to the example of Christ and the apostles? Did they put out a hit on Nero? Putting a cross on this is really frightening. Justifying murder?

[Flynmonkie]

Shouldn't we look to the example of Christ and the apostles? Did they put out a hit on Nero? Putting a cross on this is really frightening. Justifying murder?
I wholeheartedly agree. One of my biggest problems with the last election that caused me to actually vote, the moral Trojan horse issues that were ridden in on and I have always believe were a distraction to other more pressing issues. That is scarier than any type of deception, as I have said before, the only thing one seems to have to do these days is say, Christian, all of a sudden we are disarmed.

I see his perspective in a sense of protection, after exhausting all measures, and following scripture that teaches us to be wise, but harmless. I cannot factor in a God that would leave us to not utilize emotions He has given us, or utilize what He has created for us, for the good.

I understand it seems to conflict with Christs teachings. Is it murder is it protection? Does Gods establishment of the government mean that He has placed something on the heart of our Christian leaders, and a conviction? Christ said turn the other cheek, 7x77 etc.. And I prefer to aim to live my life in this manner. I have not been able to reconcile the thought of protection of others as murder. At that point someone should step up and do something. I have always resigned myself to the thought this is where God uses evil to combat evil, what comes around goes around. Evil will return to combat the issue and God will allow it. Then, what about those Christians that have found themselves in the predicament of making this decision or these decisions? A call for order? Again, this is an ongoing learning process for me. My reaction for years was to drop out of the whole mess. But I realize that this is not doing anything to promote change, and frankly it seems out of hand -- But isn't that what the Bible has taught us?

[MrJim]

I wholeheartedly agree. One of my biggest problems with the last election that caused me to actually vote, the moral Trojan horse issues that were ridden in on and I have always believe were a distraction to other more pressing issues. That is scarier than any type of deception, as I have said before, the only thing one seems to have to do these days is say, Christian, all of a sudden we are disarmed.

I see his perspective in a sense of protection, after exhausting all measures, and following scripture that teaches us to be wise, but harmless. I cannot factor in a God that would leave us to not utilize emotions He has given us, or utilize what He has created for us, for the good.

I understand it seems to conflict with Christs teachings. Is it murder is it protection? Does Gods establishment of the government mean that He has placed something on the heart of our Christian leaders, and a conviction? Christ said turn the other cheek, 7x77 etc.. And I prefer to aim to live my life in this manner. I have not been able to reconcile the thought of protection of others as murder. At that point someone should step up and do something. I have always resigned myself to the thought this is where God uses evil to combat evil, what comes around goes around. Evil will return to combat the issue and God will allow it. Then, what about those Christians that have found themselves in the predicament of making this decision or these decisions? A call for order? Again, this is an ongoing learning process for me. My reaction for years was to drop out of the whole mess. But I realize that this is not doing anything to promote change, and frankly it seems out of hand -- But isn't that what the Bible has taught us?

It seems like maybe you are overthinking this.

Regarding voting-beware of placing your trust into a worldly power regardless of how "moral" or "immoral" one side may be.

Regarding use of emotions-yeah, they came from God but also we are to control them and not let them control us. All part of bringing our bodies under subjection.

Regarding protection-protection from what? Protection from what? Christ didn't teach that we needed to trust in swords & chariots to defend us against anything. While I admit I am not there at the end of the day this world is nothing at all. This country is nothing at all. My life is nothing at all. Christ is all, and until the church can see this, it will continue on its nationalistic idol worship which is a path to destruction. Protection--what are you scared of???

Regarding "not doing anything"-praying is not doing nothing. Working for the Kingdom of God is not doing nothing. Caring for the poor and sick is not doing nothing. Evangelizing is not doing nothing. Don't let them sucker you into the mindtrap that faith and its works is "doing nothing".

Don't overthink this-consider the idea that God through Christ truly is in control. And there is nothing we need to fear, nor protect ourselves from, nor kill others to defend.

[mesue]

Another day in the Middle East or the beginning of WW3?:confused:
I'm praising :bow: :bow: :bow: God
His word is true. His mercy endureth forever. He answers the prayers of the faithful. He is justice and righteousness.
Think about this.
The Israelites are moving to the mountains. It was on the news.
Jesus said

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

G281
ἀμήν
amēn
am-ane'
Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily.
H543
אמן
'âmên
aw-mane'
From H539; sure; abstractly faithfulness; adverbially truly: - Amen, so be it, truth.

[Flynmonkie]

Don't overthink this-consider the idea that God through Christ truly is in control. And there is nothing we need to fear, nor protect ourselves from, nor kill others to defend.
I overthink everything ;)

Ok, I am not going to enamor you or myself with the idea I have a clue about any of this stuff. Basically, I agree with you. However, I believe we are taught to protect our children, we are taught to be orderly, we are taught to be wise. No, I don't agree with hiring hit men to run around knocking off the Hitler’s of the world.

But what I am saying is that when you are in a state of kill or be killed or your child being killed, Does God allows you to be in this position? Is the decision to protect inherently evil or is it how it is used (heart condition at the time of the act).


No one has proven to me biblically that there is reason for killing. However, I do believe some peace can be found though our faith when we are put in a situation of choice such as this. Do we allow someone weaker than ourselves to be left unprotected?

Of course we know that God protects, that is not what I am saying here. What I am saying is could it be possible that God does use us to do good in this manner- Such as protection of our children? (Not something like the death penalty etc..) If so, then the leaders of our country IF the heart condition is to protect, would they have Gods blessing so to speak such as David etc..

He escaped his aggressor, but he also killed to protect (have I got this right?) So I am interested in the biblical stance that has been taken for those whom have taken it because I do investigate why I believe what I believe, it either solidifies what I believe, or corrects it.

IOW opposing arguments are always taken seriously and proven or disproved.

[aReformedPatriot]

Mark doesn't spend much time there (BTW Mark, you should come by sometime), but I certainly have some interesting discussions. Just yesterday when someone claimed Saint Augustine as a Presbyterian, I had to correct this misunderstanding, and inform them that he was a confused Reformed Baptist.

^_^

Good show on correcting those silly presbyterians; they are so easily confused. And your right, I should stop by more often.

[MrJim]

I overthink everything ;)

Ok, I am not going to enamor you or myself with the idea I have a clue about any of this stuff. Basically, I agree with you. However, I believe we are taught to protect our children, we are taught to be orderly, we are taught to be wise. No, I don't agree with hiring hit men to run around knocking off the Hitler’s of the world.

But what I am saying is that when you are in a state of kill or be killed or your child being killed, Does God allows you to be in this position? Is the decision to protect inherently evil or is it how it is used (heart condition at the time of the act).


No one has proven to me biblically that there is reason for killing. However, I do believe some peace can be found though our faith when we are put in a situation of choice such as this. Do we allow someone weaker than ourselves to be left unprotected?

Of course we know that God protects, that is not what I am saying here. What I am saying is could it be possible that God does use us to do good in this manner- Such as protection of our children? (Not something like the death penalty etc..) If so, then the leaders of our country IF the heart condition is to protect, would they have Gods blessing so to speak such as David etc..

He escaped his aggressor, but he also killed to protect (have I got this right?) So I am interested in the biblical stance that has been taken for those whom have taken it because I do investigate why I believe what I believe, it either solidifies what I believe, or corrects it.

IOW opposing arguments are always taken seriously and proven or disproved.

I understand. I wrestle with this myself. I keep a loaded pistol in the house for just such a thing, though I view it as second best or even sin to do so. I am not trusting God enough (or is it? I still look both ways before crossing a one-way street).

My point is that many will expand the view of personal defense to national matters and then get into preemptive action--sorta like that Tom Cruise movie where they catch killers before they kill via some time machine. I mean, would you kill Hitler as a child knowing now what he would do?

Anyhow, like most things I see the perfect but fall short. But I do strive to achieve that model Christ gave us. I've shaken off nationalism ( which isn't easy for a former Marine to do), but still am working on it at a personal level.

[Unnamed Servant]

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Rom 13:1-4)

Government has been given the right to "bear the sword" in some sense. The implications are somewhat debatable, but when discussing these issues Rom. 13 must be taken into account.

[MrJim]

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Rom 13:1-4)

Government has been given the right to "bear the sword" in some sense. The implications are somewhat debatable, but when discussing these issues Rom. 13 must be taken into account.

Yup, and it doesn't matter what kind of gov't it is--even Hitler or Hussein or Nero.

Anabaptists don't question the gov't authority, but rather Christian's involvement in it.

[Imblessed]

Yup, and it doesn't matter what kind of gov't it is--even Hitler or Hussein or Nero.

Anabaptists don't question the gov't authority, but rather Christian's involvement in it.

I think in this sense, I am firmly in the Anabaptist/Quaker camp. I just cannot imagine that our job as 'christians' is to pick up the American Flag and go after anyone who has opposed "God's Chosen". Maybe it's worth noting that I take the reformed stance when I say that I don't believe that the nation of Isreal IS "God's Chosen", maybe it has nothing to do with it, I don't know.

All I do know is that we are to strive to be "like Christ", and Jesus taught us to love one another as we love ourselves, to take care of the poor and sick, to fellowship with and care of our fellow christian brothers and sisters, and to subject ourselves to the government, so long as it does not directly lead to our disobeying God's commandments. THAT should be our priority and our focus. Our allegiance to our nation should come only after the above.

As far as christian polititions, and christians in the military----if you are one, than you should do the best you can, with your eyes firmly on God.


So, are the events leading up to WW3? Who knows, really. My focus is on what I can do for those directly around me, and how I can advance God's Kingdom in my circle of influence.

[arunma]

I think in this sense, I am firmly in the Anabaptist/Quaker camp. I just cannot imagine that our job as 'christians' is to pick up the American Flag and go after anyone who has opposed "God's Chosen". Maybe it's worth noting that I take the reformed stance when I say that I don't believe that the nation of Isreal IS "God's Chosen", maybe it has nothing to do with it, I don't know.

The great thing about understanding that the Jews are not God's chosen people is that we no longer have to discriminate between Israel and her neighbors. We are now able to promote peace without showing favoritism to any specific side.

[Imblessed]

The great thing about understanding that the Jews are not God's chosen people is that we no longer have to discriminate between Israel and her neighbors. We are now able to promote peace without showing favoritism to any specific side.

Too bad that's not what's happening over there.......:(

[arunma]

Too bad that's not what's happening over there.......:(

No, unfortunately it isn't happening at the moment. In this case I do happen to support Israel's military activities. It is unfortunate whenever a nation must resort to war to protect itself. But I have to admit that it's very difficult to deal with Muslims in a reasonable way, especially when they are still intent on "driving the Jews into the sea."

[Flynmonkie]

I understand. I wrestle with this myself. I keep a loaded pistol in the house for just such a thing, though I view it as second best or even sin to do so. I am not trusting God enough (or is it? I still look both ways before crossing a one-way street).

My point is that many will expand the view of personal defense to national matters and then get into preemptive action--sorta like that Tom Cruise movie where they catch killers before they kill via some time machine. I mean, would you kill Hitler as a child knowing now what he would do?

Anyhow, like most things I see the perfect but fall short. But I do strive to achieve that model Christ gave us. I've shaken off nationalism ( which isn't easy for a former Marine to do), but still am working on it at a personal level.
We are in consensus here. I am still trying to strive for an understanding of that perspective. Mainly, because I just want to double-check my own thoughts and belief in the matter. I know there must be a union of what is reality and biblical, not everything is worldly, worldly things can be used for Godly, and vice versa. Secular things are not evil in and of themselves; I believe it is the intent of how we use those things makes them evil. Such as the gun issue, guns don’t kill people-- people kill people.

I don't have the answers, and what is sad, those that seem to think they do, when asked - aren't very forthcoming with biblical stance or reasonable discussion of biblical stance. It turns more into a feel of superiority that I just don't get it, and God has bestowed them the knowledge - so the impression is left that it is obviously not me that needs to understand. "silly little bunny, tricks are for kids!":(:sigh:

[MrJim]

I think in this sense, I am firmly in the Anabaptist/Quaker camp. I just cannot imagine that our job as 'christians' is to pick up the American Flag and go after anyone who has opposed "God's Chosen". Maybe it's worth noting that I take the reformed stance when I say that I don't believe that the nation of Isreal IS "God's Chosen", maybe it has nothing to do with it, I don't know.

All I do know is that we are to strive to be "like Christ", and Jesus taught us to love one another as we love ourselves, to take care of the poor and sick, to fellowship with and care of our fellow christian brothers and sisters, and to subject ourselves to the government, so long as it does not directly lead to our disobeying God's commandments. THAT should be our priority and our focus. Our allegiance to our nation should come only after the above.

As far as christian polititions, and christians in the military----if you are one, than you should do the best you can, with your eyes firmly on God.


So, are the events leading up to WW3? Who knows, really. My focus is on what I can do for those directly around me, and how I can advance God's Kingdom in my circle of influence.

See, when I became calvinist many years ago I held onto the anabaptist world view in things like this. When I discovered a local reformed baptist church I thought, now here will be a group of people so trusting in the sovereignty of God the world of politics and nationalism will just be sort of meaningless--they'll be focused upon the Kingdom of God. I was sore disappointed. While not as flag waving as the baptist church I'm at now, there was still that element of "AMERICA" there that just wouldn't go away-especially in the men's group bible study. I was pretty confused by it. If any one group wanted to trust solely upon God's control, I thought it would be the reformed baptists. Hey, the mennonites act more upon God's sovereignity, and they're arminians. They trust in God's control so much that if they are being killed they say, "OK, not my will but Thine be done". Is it passivity or trust?

I say all that not to bash calvinists, but to say I believe your line of thinking is very consistent with your theology.

[Unnamed Servant]

The question becomes, "What if your government starts to go completely against everything that the Bible says a government should be?"

This is the question that was posed to a pacifist in that of Dietrich Bonhoffer. The pacifistic stance is fine to sit back and hold when you live in a safe democratic nation, but when your under Hitler it doesn't become so easy.

[arunma]

See, when I became calvinist many years ago I held onto the anabaptist world view in things like this. When I discovered a local reformed baptist church I thought, now here will be a group of people so trusting in the sovereignty of God the world of politics and nationalism will just be sort of meaningless--they'll be focused upon the Kingdom of God. I was sore disappointed. While not as flag waving as the baptist church I'm at now, there was still that element of "AMERICA" there that just wouldn't go away-especially in the men's group bible study. I was pretty confused by it. If any one group wanted to trust solely upon God's control, I thought it would be the reformed baptists. Hey, the mennonites act more upon God's sovereignity, and they're arminians. They trust in God's control so much that if they are being killed they say, "OK, not my will but Thine be done". Is it passivity or trust?

I say all that not to bash calvinists, but to say I believe your line of thinking is very consistent with your theology.

One thing I've figured out about my fellow Calvinists is that we are quite a diverse bunch. To see this in action, simply note that John Piper and Fred Phelps have one important trait in common: they both claim to be Calvinists. Aside from that, they're about as far apart as you can get.

[Flynmonkie]

Well if Paul speaks of order, and I believe other places in the Bible we are taught order amongst ourselves. There are obviously Christians in government, but if we all sit back and don't support those Christians, what are we left with? I think Christians should be involved, but it is a matter to what degree is the issue it seems. I cannot bring myself to rally behind a government official that deems it necessary to loose life in a battle that is not directly, but potentially indirectly a solution to protection, because I don't know them, and I have yet to see a politician that displays a Christian attitude in such a way that I would believe there is no choice..

i want to be more involved, but what can I do, I cannot seem to reconcile biblical stance with government - it is extremely frustrating and I have resigned to the idea that if God wanted me to get it, He will. If not it is probably best to stay out of it. The whole thing is saddening.

I should have said 'Silly monkey, Tricks (politics) are for kids (grownups)" I just don't get it.:scratch:

[MrJim]

The question becomes, "What if your government starts to go completely against everything that the Bible says a government should be?"

This is the question that was posed to a pacifist in that of Dietrich Bonhoffer. The pacifistic stance is fine to sit back and hold when you live in a safe democratic nation, but when your under Hitler it doesn't become so easy.

Paul was a Roman citizen and Nero was a bad dude, but ya didn't get teh sense in Paul's letters that he thought it was necessary to get in there and influence politics. Influence politicians for Christ-now there's another matter. Influence politicians to set for foreign/domestic policy-that I just don't see.

[ZiSunka]

Don't forget that many Christians over there on both sides of the border are also being hurt or in danger. Many Lebanese and Palestinians are Chrsitians. Earlier today, the news said that as many as 200 Christians have been killed or wounded.

We need to keep praying for our Lebanese and Palestinian brothers and sisters.

[Imblessed]

See, when I became calvinist many years ago I held onto the anabaptist world view in things like this. When I discovered a local reformed baptist church I thought, now here will be a group of people so trusting in the sovereignty of God the world of politics and nationalism will just be sort of meaningless--they'll be focused upon the Kingdom of God. I was sore disappointed. While not as flag waving as the baptist church I'm at now, there was still that element of "AMERICA" there that just wouldn't go away-especially in the men's group bible study. I was pretty confused by it. If any one group wanted to trust solely upon God's control, I thought it would be the reformed baptists. Hey, the mennonites act more upon God's sovereignity, and they're arminians. They trust in God's control so much that if they are being killed they say, "OK, not my will but Thine be done". Is it passivity or trust?

I say all that not to bash calvinists, but to say I believe your line of thinking is very consistent with your theology.

Oh, I totally agree. I feel VERY lucky that I'm in a reformed baptist church that is NOT like that at all. In fact, our pastor refuses to even discuss stuff like that on the pulpit. He was asked his stance on the conflict over there last year during one of our "open forum" nights and would not discuss it. He flatly said that the the church is not the place to deal with politics, and that one's political stance was between oneself and God and should not be promoted or discussed at church. :thumbsup:

While I'm not a "pacifist" by any means, I just don't think it's part of our christian makeup to take a strong nationalistic stance, and especially not to take sides in conflicts like this that have been going on for centuries. Our job is to take care of those around us, and spread the Gospel in our circle of influence. I don't think God expects anymore than that for most of us.

[Imblessed]

The question becomes, "What if your government starts to go completely against everything that the Bible says a government should be?"

This is the question that was posed to a pacifist in that of Dietrich Bonhoffer. The pacifistic stance is fine to sit back and hold when you live in a safe democratic nation, but when your under Hitler it doesn't become so easy.

I don't think the question here is about pacifism really. It's about being nationalistic, and taking sides. I agree that it's easier to say, "obey the government" when you are in a place like America! Much easier. I don't know when I'd draw the line, honestly.

[JPPT1974]

Everything they say that there is a peace
Treaty that they may be signed
The fighting continues and will continue
As we are far from getting a peace treaty signed asap
While the fighting and the bloodshed will continue!

[Flynmonkie]

... don't ask wrong post, wrong thread (I hate that sometimes new windows open when I don't ask them to!):sigh:


Right now we are looking at US involvement in the Middle East (in general) we are trying to view it from Robert S. McNamara lens. I am not sure if any of you have seen “Fog of war” (IN addition 13 days with Kevin Costner). In a nutshell, If I am understanding this correctly the ethics of Vietnam, and now (general involvement Iran, Iraq, etc) are some stunning correlations, along with many other wartime similarities. MacNamara in the Fog of War gave 11 life lessons (85 years old at the time of the taping I believe?) Right now I am working on thinking through this, in relation to prior wars. I find it ironic that the documentary starts with MacNamara saying “never make the same mistake twice”!…….




Empathize with your enemy.
Rationality will not save us.
There's something beyond one's self.
Maximize efficiency.
Proportionality should be a guideline in war.
Get the data.
Belief and seeing are both often wrong.
Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning.
In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil.
Never say never.
You can't change human nature. (Regarding war)


I am supposed to pick a specific topic, such as Iraq war,Terror, Global warming and work with this applying the questions to each situation. It is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I understand. I wrestle with this myself. I keep a loaded pistol in the house for just such a thing, though I view it as second best or even sin to do so. I am not trusting God enough (or is it? I still look both ways before crossing a one-way street).

My point is that many will expand the view of personal defense to national matters and then get into preemptive action--sorta like that Tom Cruise movie where they catch killers before they kill via some time machine. I mean, would you kill Hitler as a child knowing now what he would do?

Anyhow, like most things I see the perfect but fall short. But I do strive to achieve that model Christ gave us. I've shaken off nationalism ( which isn't easy for a former Marine to do), but still am working on it at a personal level.
i only read one post on this thread, or two, but one about this;
elsewhere on the web you can find the biblical commands that if someone breaks into your house in the day time and you hit him and he dies, then you will suffer punishment(death or not i forget).. but if it is nighttime when he breaks in, and you hit him and he dies, then you are not held liable for his death, apparently because in the dark you couldn't tell that your hitting him would kill him, that you just wanted to stop him without killing him --- because killing someone in selfdefense is sin all through G_d's Word.

the jewish and gentile believers immersed in Yahshua in the 1st century were called traitors and cowards by their own countrymen and family(unbelievers) because they would not lift a weapon nor defend themselves nor defend Jerusalem - they fled, and would not fight(see Hebrews too), simply trusting Yahshua's Overall Care, trusting AND OBEYing His Word to love their enemies. they did what He said.