Can Messianics use "Cross Shape"?

[Yusuphhai]

quoted by Torah who is respected:

dear brother in Yeshua I would like to share something with you If I may. The “work” that Yeshua did on the cross is gentle and powerful. The cross is not of Israel. The cross was a pagan symbol from Egypt that the Romans used to kill thousands of Jews before, during, & after the time of Yeshua. To my Jewish Brother’s it is like displaying a Gas chamber if Yeshua would have given his life during the Holocaust.:cry:
Shalom


Shalom Dear Sir,

I am so sorry that historical holocaust is remembered to you (and also to me). I have deleted that “cross” with Magen David . But I am really confused whether every “Cross Shape” is from Paganism? Can you teach me more ? I cry for the great tribulation of Jewish with you. :cry:Is in most cases “Christian” a symbol of Paganism? And in a few cases it is not?　

Sincerely, Yusuph

[Torah]

Over time, the ankh certainly came to symbolize life and immortality, the universe, power and life giving air and water. "Its keylike shape also encouraged the belief it could unlock the gates of death." The Coptic Christians used it as a symbol of life after death. The ankh has been used in ritual magic.
It also appears to be a 'cross' between a crucifix and the 'christian' (flat) fish symbol which is also represented as determining a point of origin and a vanishing point by drawing two curves around the three main pyramids.
Two ankhs could therefore represent two crossed fishes being a combination of the symbol for Pisces and a crucifix
The ankh appears frequently in Egyptian tomb paintings and other art; it often appears at the fingertips of a god or goddess in images that represent the deities of the afterlife conferring the gift of life on the dead person's mummy. The ankh symbol was often carried by Egyptians as an amulet, either alone, or in connection with two other hieroglyphs that mean "strength" and "health." Mirrors were often made in the shape of an ankh. Sometimes, in art, the Ankh was shown being touched by a god onto a person, which usually symbolized conception.
A similar symbol (♀) was used to represent the Roman goddess Venus. This symbol, known benignly as Venus' hand-mirror, is much more associated with a representation of the female womb. The same symbol is used in astrology to represent the planet Venus, in alchemy to represent the element copper, and in biology to identify the female sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh#_note-0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh#_note-0)




Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang there until dead. It is widely considered a not uncommon but extremely dishonorable and painful form of judicial execution in the Roman Empire, though similar methods were employed in other ancient cultures such as Persia. Crucifixion was used by the Romans until about AD 313,

The horizontal beam of the cross, or transom, could be fixed at the very top of the vertical piece, the upright, to form a capital T called a tau cross or Saint Anthony’s cross. According to some unlikely theories, this shape had its origin in ancient Babylonia as the symbol of the god Tammuz, being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the Greek initial of his name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Cause_of_death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Cause_of_death)

The Jew

At the time of Jesus (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000390.htm#0566d32e) punishment by the cross (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000310.htm#04095094) was confined to slaves or to criminals of the worst class. Exemption from it was the privilege of Roman citizenship.
This form of punishment was in use among the Egyptians (Gen 40:19), the Carthaginians, the Persians (Esth 7:10), the Assyrians, Scythians, Indians, Germans, and from earliest times among the Greeks and Romans.
After the conquest of Tyre (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000573.htm#002cda98), Alexander the Great ordered two thousand Tyrians to be crucified as punishment for the resistance which that city made.
Crucifixion was abolished by Constantine, probably toward the end of his reign,no doubt because of his increasing reverence for the cross.
Among the Jews, as well as among the Romans, crucifixion was considered the most horrible form of death; to a Jew it would seem the more horrible from the curse "He who is hanged is accursed of God" (Deut 21:23).
http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000311.htm (http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/jesusuntitled00000311.htm)


History of crucifixion:
Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)
Some further detail is given in "The Eerdman's Bible Dictionary", Rev. Ed., 1975: CROSS ... Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a punishment for slaves and non-citizens, and occasionaly for citizens guilty of treason. Although in the Old Testament the corpses of blasphemers or idolaters punished by stoning might be handged "on a tree" as further humiliation (Deut. 21:23), actual crucifixion was not introduced in Palestine until Hellenistic times. The Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization (Josephus Ant. xii.240-41; cf 1 Macc. 1:44-50).
http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm (http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm)

There appear to be a number of misconceptions regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was NOT the first nor the only person to be crucified. The Romans had used that method of execution for at least 70 years before Jesus was Crucified. In around 40 BC, in Rome, a historian recorded that 2,000 people were crucified in a single day, for the entertainment of Quintilius Varus! About 40 years after Jesus' Crucifixion, the Romans crucified around 500 per day in 70 AD.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/crucifix.htm (http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/crucifix.htm)


This cruel way of carrying into effect the sentence of death was introduced into Palestine by the Romans. Josephus brands the first crucifixion as an act of unusual cruelty ("Ant." xiii. 14, § 2), and as illegal. But many Jews underwent this extreme penalty (ib. xx. 6, § 2; "Vita," § 75; "B. J." ii. 12, § 6; 14, § 9; v. 11, § 1; Philo, ii. 529).
During the times of unrest which preceded the rise in open rebellion against Rome (about 30-66 B.C.), "rebels" met with short shrift at the hands of the oppressor. They were crucified as traitors. The sons of Judas the Galilean were among those who suffered this fate.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=905&letter=C (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=905&letter=C)


Undoubtedly, one of the cruelest and most humiliating forms of punishment in the ancient world was, according to ancient sources, crucifixion. The Jewish historian Josephus best described it following the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 66-70 as "the most wretched of deaths."1 Whereas in Seneca's Epistle 101 to Lucilius, he argues that suicide is preferable to the cruel fate of being put on the cross.
http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html (http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html)

This is why as Messianic we see the cross as pagan. But the work Yeshua did in his death is for all mankind.
Shalom

[thetruthremains]

This is why as Messianic we see the cross as pagan. But the work Yeshua did in his death is for all mankind.
Shalom


I personally feel that all symbolism is unnecessary as a demonstration of one's faith, keeping in mind, that the hexagram also has roots in babylon, and was used as a symbol for ritual magick, and still is even today.

[Torah]

I personally feel that all symbolism is unnecessary as a demonstration of one's faith, keeping in mind, that the hexagram also has roots in babylon, and was used as a symbol for ritual magick, and still is even today.
This is true. But! The “Star of David” was a way to identify 6million of our people before they were murdered. This stands symbolic for there life’s. The cross on the other hand has been a cursed symbol to the Jews before Yeshua and all through history.
Romans, Inquisitions, Crusaders, and the Nazi’s.
However! I do agree with you that all symbolism is unnecessary as a demonstration of one's faith. With the exception of the “Menorah”.
Shalom

[Yusuphhai]

Shalom friends in Adonai (Yeshua),

Thanks for the resource provided. If the “Cross Shape” reminds us the great tribulation of Jewish performed by “Christian”, I do not hang “Cross Shape” anywhere. Although in the heart of some Christians “Cross Shape” is just a symbol to remember the Death of Yeshua and his (her) death with Him, but not an idol to worship. What we should worship is Adonai the Only One of Israel through Yeshua. Forgive me, until now I like the shape of both black Cross and blue Magen David. May the Word (Scripture) of Him help me.

[Yusuphhai]

forgive me please

Sorry Sir,

I forget to delete the "Black Cross Shape" in my Signature. Now have done.:)

Sincerely, Yusuph

[Yusuphhai]

And how about the Golden Censer in my Character? is it kosher? i know there is no base in the Scriptures about its shape.

[Sephania]

I know that many can get upset over the cross and how it was used but you must understand this is the work of the evil one.

That symbol , the cross was given by G-d before there were any such thing as a Roman, or a nazi, or anyone else that hated Jews, it was even given before there was even revealed that there would be 'Jews'. It was a mark, and it was first used by G-d, yes, by G-d, and put on the forehead of Cain. This was before the L-RD handed down his commandment to not kill. The mark 'saved' Cain from death and that is the bottom line of the symbol of the cross, it saves you from death, if , and only if you believe that the Messiah took your place there.

In the very ancient alef-bet, the first letter the alef, was the sign of an ox, and means strength, first, leader.

The last letter of the alef-bet is not a 'Z' like the "Arabic-English' alphabet ( Greek name). It is the Tav, or Tau, which is spelt, TAV VaV. The meaning of this last letter of the alef-bet is 'A Sign' or a mark,it also means, 'to seal' and 'to covenant'

If you go to the Hebrew of Genesis 4:15 you will see the word translated as Mark, is spelled

Alef vav Tav

Alef is a silent letter and Tav vav spells Tav. This is a mark, it is also used when the L-RD speaks of the Shabbat being a sign, the same word is used.

It can also be found in Ezekiel, the mark that shows who belongs to G-d.

The pool of Siloam inscription ( found in 1880) which dates from 700 BCE ( a little after King Shlomos time) carrys this ancient letter in the cross shape. It wasn't until after returning from Babylon this shape was erased from the Hebrew alef-bet and from Jewish memory, until recent times of rediscovery.

So as you can see, this sign belongs to the world, those who are part of the world that look to the creator of the world and universe for Salvation. So long before any Roman 'thought this up' to use as a weapon of death, it was already decread by the Holy one of Israel.

~Z

[Wags]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you Zayit - but I'm always a little suspicious of sources claiming to have rediscovered some acient artifact that supports modern christian symbols.

And where in scipture does it say specifically what mark was applied to Cain?

The work of the evil one was to convince christians, whom revere the cross as a religious symbol, to perscute Jews. The Inquistion most promently comes to mind, and of course there is the Halocaust. Why should any one want to display something that causes another so much discomfort that they would want nothing to do with it or with the persons associated with it?

[Sephania]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you Zayit - but I'm always a little suspicious of sources claiming to have rediscovered some acient artifact that supports modern christian symbols.

And where in scipture does it say specifically what mark was applied to Cain?

The work of the evil one was to convince christians, whom revere the cross as a religious symbol, to perscute Jews. The Inquistion most promently comes to mind, and of course there is the Halocaust. Why should any one want to display something that causes another so much discomfort that they would want nothing to do with it or with the persons associated with it? I wasn't speaking of any Christian symbol, or artifact supporting it, what are you referring to?:scratch: The inscription was found in 1880's. Take a look http://www.katapi.org.uk/BAndS/SiloamInscription.htm

on the last line, reading right to left you see these two letters I was talking about, first the Tav and then the Alef. the Tav during this time period still was shaped like a cross.

I have done much research into this ancient language over the past year and use it much in my artwork.

As far as the Scripture:

4:15 And the L-RD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the L-RD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. This same word can be found here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0226&version=kjv) it appears 77 times in the tenach. Starting in Genesis and ending in Ezekiel. :)


I never said anyone should display it, I do not, but I also have more understanding that it is the enemies doing of taking something of G-d and using it against his own people. It is his desire for them to see it was not something that was to be used against them, rather to bring them the promised salvation , the saving from death.

My point was, it was not a Christian symbol, it was taken to be, from a so called vision from heaven, but it was originally a symbol of G-ds, and stolen and used in a more profane way against his chosen to keep them from seeing the true meaning of it.

Instead of running to and looking up to the 'serpent on a pole' they were accused of it, and beaten with it and terrorized with it, so they were forced to run in the opposite direction. Exactly what the true serpent wanted.

[thetruthremains]

This is true. But! The “Star of David” was a way to identify 6million of our people before they were murdered.

This is true, but it was imposed on the people by their persecutors. Hitler probably enjoyed it, because he was an occultist. Check out the theosophy website, and you will see the hexagram there as a symbol of magick.


This stands symbolic for there life’s. The cross on the other hand has been a cursed symbol to the Jews before Yeshua and all through history.
Romans, Inquisitions, Crusaders, and the Nazi’s.

The Nazi's were not Christians. When the Christians saw what Hitler was doing (making himself a god) there was a split. Hitler and his elite were occultists all the way.


However! I do agree with you that all symbolism is unnecessary as a demonstration of one's faith. With the exception of the “Menorah”.
Shalom

Agreed

[plum]

except for a few small things, i don't see much documentation for these arguments. are there reputable sources for this information?

[thetruthremains]

except for a few small things, i don't see much documentation for these arguments. are there reputable sources for this information?

I am not sure who you are addressing. Could you please be more specific.

[plum]

pardon me i did overlook a lot of documentation.

*sheepish*

[Bon]

forgive me please

Sorry Sir,

I forget to delete the "Black Cross Shape" in my Signature. Now have done.:)

Sincerely, Yusuph
I did like the message on that cross.....

"He died for you, why not live for Him."

Bon

[SpiritPsalmist]

I personally feel that all symbolism is unnecessary as a demonstration of one's faith, keeping in mind, that the hexagram also has roots in babylon, and was used as a symbol for ritual magick, and still is even today.

From what I understand the hexagram is encircled -- inside a circle. A true Star of David (Magen David -- "mah-ghen dah-veed") is not.

[thetruthremains]

From what I understand the hexagram is encircled -- inside a circle. A true Star of David (Magen David -- "mah-ghen dah-veed") is not.

I usually do not quote wikipedia, but I will this time to show a cross-section of hexagrams:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram

from the theosophy society:

http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/views/emblem/index.html

about magick:

http://thelemicgoldendawn.tripod.com/hexagram.htm

http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/ceremonial/standard/invoking/lesser_ritual_of_the_hexagram.html

[visionary]

Even the brozen snake on the pole had to be destroyed before the people got all carried away with "its" power and worship of the creation rather than the Creator and Redeemer. So it is today, that while in symbolism it is a picture that tells a thousand words, too many are clutching the cross and have more faith in it than the truth. Therefore, the cross needs to be taken down that we may again look up to our Redeemer and Creator for our hope of salvation.

[Sephania]

Even the brozen snake on the pole had to be destroyed before the people got all carried away with "its" power and worship of the creation rather than the Creator and Redeemer. So it is today, that while in symbolism it is a picture that tells a thousand words, too many are clutching the cross and have more faith in it than the truth. Therefore, the cross needs to be taken down that we may again look up to our Redeemer and Creator for our hope of salvation.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Steve Petersen]

Recall that there were bells and pomegranates around the hem of the temple priest's robe. Archaeologists have also found a pomegranate scepter head believed to belong to a priest of the first temple. Pomegranates are a continuing motif in ancient Israel. Ever look at the leaves on the bottom of a pomegranate? My pastor took a picture of one and it looks exactly like the Magen David.

I also seem to recall the the Magen David has been found on the lintel of an ancient Israeli synagogue.

[Sephania]

Recall that there were bells and pomegranates around the hem of the temple priest's robe. Archaeologists have also found a pomegranate scepter head believed to belong to a priest of the first temple. Pomegranates are a continuing motif in ancient Israel. Ever look at the leaves on the bottom of a pomegranate? My pastor took a picture of one and it looks exactly like the Magen David.

I also seem to recall the the Magen David has been found on the lintel of an ancient Israeli synagogue. I have been showing that to many for a time now. It is also believed to contain 613 seeds ( in a perfect one).

I have actually made three reproductions of that very pomegranate, and just sold one at the Messiah Cultural Center last week. They were not easy to do, but I did make mine whole, not half as what was found. Instead of the inscription found as I didn't want to totally relplicate a Holy thing, I wrote that part of the scripture in the giving of the instructions to make the High Priests garment.


A golden bell and a pomegranate................. In ancient Hebrew of course. When I get some pictures I will post them.

It is believed to be the only item found from the time of Shlomos temple, mostly dated by the inscription ( pre - exile).

[thetruthremains]

I also seem to recall the the Magen David has been found on the lintel of an ancient Israeli synagogue.

The star that you are referring to was found at the synagogue in chorazin, and is dated approx fourth century. There was also a five pointed star found next to it.

[thetruthremains]

It is believed to be the only item found from the time of Shlomos temple, mostly dated by the inscription ( pre - exile).

If I remember correctly, that item has been called into question in reference to its authenticity just recently. I will check on that.

[Sephania]

The only thing that seems to be left to question is the dating, some think it even older, going back to Bronze Age time, ( 13BCE) instead of 8-9BCE , which may put it in Mishkan timing rather than temple.

As might be expected, the pomegranate has created some controversy with regard to both its authenticity and the veracity of its inscription - a situation only aggravated by the object's lack of provenance and the somewhat dubious means by which it came to world attention (namely, the trade in antiquities). After thorough examination, however, many scholars concur as to its veracity and, therefore, its extreme importance.



The authenticity of the inscription had first to be established. Lemaire had the letter incisions examined microscopically: it was found that traces of the ancient patina, which covered the surface of the object, were also to be found within the incisions. Such evidence was compelling for the inscription's antiquity and, therefore, its authenticity. Other distinctive features serve to corroborate this conclusion. Firstly, the edges of several of the incised lines are rounded and worn, not sharp as would be expected in new incisions. Secondly, the palaeography removes any additional doubts regarding the inscription's veracity: the letters reveal correct forms, well contrived by a skilled engraver, who successfully rose to the challenge of writing at such small scale on the difficult canvas of the pomegranate's rounded shoulder.


http://www.ancientneareast.net/pomegranate.html

Great pictures here if anyone interested, there are very few of this artifact. I worked from a beautifully photographed X2 from the Jerusalem museum.

The person I sold it to ( who knew it was a quasi -artifact) is an A. archeologist.

[Yusuphhai]

Shalom Family,

Thanks for the replies.

In fact I was favorite of German philosophy and Lutheran before. The symbol of Lutheran and Medal of German Army is just “Black Cross Shape” until now. If it causes me and someone else to sin, or hurts someone, I prefer not to hang it anywhere. It is a warning to me that “You shall not bow down to them or worship them (idols)”(Exo20:5). The Cross Shape itself may not be idol, but in my heart it can be considered as an idol.

And how about the Jerusalem Cross Shape in my Character? Would it hurt someone?

So please pray for me to obey His Word (Scriptures) and worship Him only.

Love in Adonai (Yeshua)
Yusuph

[Torah]

Shalom Family,

Thanks for the replies.

In fact I was favorite of German philosophy and Lutheran before. The symbol of Lutheran and Medal of German Army is just “Black Cross Shape” until now. If it causes me and someone else to sin, or hurts someone, I prefer not to hang it anywhere. It is a warning to me that “You shall not bow down to them or worship them (idols)”(Exo20:5). The Cross Shape itself may not be idol, but in my heart it can be considered as an idol.

And how about the Jerusalem Cross Shape in my Character? Would it hurt someone?

So please pray for me to obey His Word (Scriptures) and worship Him only.

Love in Adonai (Yeshua)
Yusuph

I find that you are very humble Yusuphhai. Blessing on your head. Shalom

[Yusuphhai]

I did like the message on that cross.....

"He died for you, why not live for Him."

Bon

This message is right, maybe the "Black Cross Shape" is also no wrong, what is wrong is my heart that always wants to find a idol to worship.

In my sight the correct definition about Yeshua is the key way to Adonai. :)

[Yusuphhai]

I find that you are very humble Yusuphhai. Blessing on your head. Shalom

Thanks for your work of Pruning to me.

John(NRSV)15:2 He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit.:)

[thetruthremains]

The only thing that seems to be left to question is the dating, some think it even older, going back to Bronze Age time, ( 13BCE) instead of 8-9BCE , which may put it in Mishkan timing rather than temple.



Some believe that the object was probably made centuries before the First Temple, i.e. Canaanite. The inscription is being questioned as a forgery. This is possibly contributing to the inaccuracy of the dating.

[thetruthremains]

http://www.ancientneareast.net/pomegranate.html



I went and looked at the sight. It seems that they are making some assumptions there.

quote:

"Belonging to the Temp[le of Yahw]eh, holy to the priests"

Yahwjeh is not spelled out. It actually says YHWJH.The are many other possibilities such as:

Yahwjeh, Yehwjeh, Yihwjeh, Yohwjeh, Yahwjah, Yahwjih, Yahwjoh, Yahowjeh, Yehowjeh, Yihowjeh, Yohowjeh, etc.


Yahwjeh is an assumption on their part, as there is no vowels. It makes me a little cautious when I see things like this, because only five million people in the world read Hebrew, and much fewer can read paleo, so most people have to take their word for what it says. Just an observation.

[Sephania]

I'll be going to an BAS convention in a few months and see what the latest is, and we'll talk about it then, OK. This thread isn't about that so let's drop it in here, shall we?

:)

Yushuphhai, you do have a wonderful humble heart, pleasing to the L-RD , like King David.

:) :hug:

[thetruthremains]

I'll be going to an BAS convention in a few months and see what the latest is, and we'll talk about it then, OK. This thread isn't about that so let's drop it in here, shall we?

Fair enough, but in closing, I would suggest that you could open up a discussion about this topic at this forum if you are interested:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/

There are many experts in the field (also from Israel) who post and discuss topics such as this one there, and it may be a good souce of information for you.

[Yusuphhai]

May Adonai (Messiah Yeshua) bless His Nation forever!

:):hug: