Olam Haba

[plum]

wanted to share something i saw on asktherabbi.org:
How is one to receive a place in the World to Come? By performing Mitzvot, commandments, and keeping God's Torah. There are people in this world that deny the very existence of God and they believe that they have no need for the World to Come. However, such people manage to perform plenty of Mitzvot during their lives. This is so even if they did so without any of the correct intentions at all. God, then has to reward them for their actions with a form of "currency" that fits their lifestyle. One of the ways that God has for rewarding the wicked is to grant them long life and riches in this world. This means that at their Final Judgment, the Heavenly Tribunal can check its records and see that all merits and rewards were paid in the physical world.
The concept of hell, called Gehinom or purgatory, shares no resemblance to Christian hell. Jewish Traditional Sources teach that Gehinom is a place where Souls are sent - only if the Soul is in need of some form of spiritual correction. A Soul, depending on the need for correction, can spend up to a year in Gehinom. However, the maximum time is "only" twelve months, there is no concept whatsoever of being in Gehinom for an indefinite period of time, i.e. eternal damnation.
Once a Soul has been through the necessary process of correction, the Soul is welcomed into the World to Come to join all the other Souls in the World of Truth.


So why have a Messiah when following Torah allows one into the Olam Haba anyway?
Why need a Messiah, a savior? If this philosophy is true, we can already save ourselves. And what would Messiah save us from? 12 months of grief for our sins? Less money and long life in this world?

hmm

[Talmidah]

delete

[Andyman_1970]

So why have a Messiah when following Torah allows one into the Olam Haba anyway?


First, Jesus (our Messiah) gave us God's interpretation of Torah, how He desires us to live it out.

Second, notice Jesus tells His talmidim to go make more talmidim, He makes no mention of converting people or insuring they go to Heaven when they die....something to consider.

Third, isn't the concept of olam haba a life lived in harmony with God? I understand this to be right here and right now, not just after I die.

Fourth, the Messiah allows Gentiles to become part of God's covenant people.

I think alot of us who grew up in "normal" Christian churches were taught that Jesus' main and one and only mission on earth was to "make a way" to Heaven for humans. We essentially boil the Gospel down to where one goes after they die. The problem is, in context, that was only part of Jesus' mission here - in the Gospels He actually speaks very little about where one goes after they die.

[plum]

i agree about Yeshua's mission certainly. He never once said "accept me into your heart" ;)

[thetruthremains]

The problem is, in context, that was only part of Jesus' mission here - in the Gospels He actually speaks very little about where one goes after they die.

I remember correctly, He speaks more about hell than He does heaven.

[Andyman_1970]

I remember correctly, He speaks more about hell than He does heaven.

And more often that not those references to hell were of a present reality rather than an eternal destination for bad people.

[plum]

the question remains: if the quote is true, then why Messiah?

[Sephania]

I think this Rabbi needs to do a little moe torah study.


This is so even if they did so without any of the correct intentions at all. God, then has to reward them for their actions with a form of "currency" that fits their lifestyle. One of the ways that God has for rewarding the wicked is to grant them long life and riches in this world.


:scratch:

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the L-RD thy G-d giveth thee.


And keep the charge of the L-RD thy G-d, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

Not to mention the book written by the wisest, most afluent one , King Shlomo, the proverbs, which give instruction on how to have a long prosperous life, by being obedient to G-ds word Loving him and others, treating others rightly.

[thetruthremains]

And more often that not those references to hell were of a present reality rather than an eternal destination for bad people.

I am not sure that I agree with your take on that. Hell is eternal, and Daniel clearly states that in the Tenach.

[Andyman_1970]

I am not sure that I agree with your take on that. Hell is eternal, and Daniel clearly states that in the Tenach.

I'm not advocating that hell is not eternal, but the terms Jesus uses most often with reference to hell is a present reality (what we sometimes call "hell on earth") rather than an eternal destination. Jesus in Luke 16 refers to an eternal hell in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

[ChavaK]

So why have a Messiah when following Torah allows one into the Olam Haba anyway?
Why need a Messiah, a savior? If this philosophy is true, we can already save ourselves. And what would Messiah save us from? 12 months of grief for our sins? Less money and long life in this world?

hmm

Is there a difference between Judaism and
Christianity (and/or messianics) regarding the role
of moshiach, the reason for observing mitzvot, and
olam habah? Or do you believe they are the same,
other than we disagree on who the moshiach is?:)
Not questioning your beliefs, just interested in
understanding them..:)

[plum]

Do you not see a difference between Judaism and
Christianity (and/or messianics) regarding the role
of moshiach, the reason for observing mitzvot, and
olam habah? Or do you believe they are the same,
other than we disagree on who the moshiach is?:)
Not questioning your beliefs, just interested in
understanding them..:)
well the way you phrased it, i can obviously tell you don't agree with me on those other points.
and my honest answer is no, i don't know the differences very well. But I know some.

[ChavaK]

well the way you phrased it, i can obviously tell you don't agree with me on those other points.
and my honest answer is no, i don't know the differences very well. But I know some.

Sorry for the poor phrasing, it wasn't meant as a
challenge or disagreement, just interested in your
beliefs.
If I may ask, what differences or similarities do you
see in these concepts between Jews and Messianics?

[plum]

Sorry for the poor phrasing, it wasn't meant as a
challenge or disagreement, just interested in your
beliefs.
If I may ask, what differences or similarities do you
see in these concepts between Jews and Messianics?
i'll give a reply to your question when i have more time; thanks for clearing it up. i misunderstood you! :hug:

[ChavaK]

i'll give a reply to your question when i have more time; thanks for clearing it up. i misunderstood you! :hug:

I changed the wording, so I hope it better reflects what
I was trying to ask :) ....I would also be interested in
the opinions of the other posters here as well...