Corps or Church

[Gwen'sMom]

I have noticed that a lot of SA Corps are now being called Community Churches. Does anyone know why this is happening more? I am confused. There is a Community Church in my city that is called _____ Community Church but it is SA army also?? :scratch:

[Andy Broadley]

I can ojly assume that it is attempt to become more relevent to the community.

Personally, it will always remain the Corps.

I belong to the Salvation ARMY, not the Salvation community church

[TheDag]

Hi Gwen
I don't personally know but my guess would be that it might have something to do with the way non believers view it. There are some groups that are avoiding using the word church because of all the negative connotations that are attached to that word today. When setting up they say they are a church and explain to people why they want to avoid using the term. As long as they don't deceive newcomers about what they are on about I have no problem with it. The word community suggests certain things so I guess that is why it is used.

[Gwen'sMom]

Also a lot of churches are being called "worship centers". Yeah, I can see how the name church can be seen as stiff and boring. Also, maybe a lot of people don't know how to take the term "Corps".
But would you say that ABC Community Church (affiliated with the SA) is still strictly army? Maybe I should call up ABC church and see?? I'm just curious.

[Evangelina]

I would expect that they would be. Although it may not strongly encourage the wearing of uniforms, and may not have a brass band... considered by some to be THE defining aspects of a SA corps :D So maybe it depends on your personal opinion!

[Andy Broadley]

Hi Gwen
I don't personally know but my guess would be that it might have something to do with the way non believers view it. There are some groups that are avoiding using the word church because of all the negative connotations that are attached to that word today. When setting up they say they are a church and explain to people why they want to avoid using the term. As long as they don't deceive newcomers about what they are on about I have no problem with it. The word community suggests certain things so I guess that is why it is used.


Good job the Apostles didn't think like that, or they'd have never made it out of the upper room.

There is an obsession these days with being 'acceptable' and not doing or saying anything that might offend anyone. It's like we are apologising for who we are and what we are.

And I for one won't do that. We are the ARMY that GOD raised up as part of His CHURCH, to preach the Gospel of JESUS.

And if people can't handle that or have negative connections to those words, then that just goes to show how much the CHURCH has failed JESUS.

[Andy Broadley]

Also a lot of churches are being called "worship centers". Yeah, I can see how the name church can be seen as stiff and boring. Also, maybe a lot of people don't know how to take the term "Corps".
But would you say that ABC Community Church (affiliated with the SA) is still strictly army? Maybe I should call up ABC church and see?? I'm just curious.


If that is the case, then we need to do whatever it takes to make the word church into something fresh and vibrant, the way it is supposed to be.

Not simply drop the word altogether and hide in a corner hoping nobody wil notice us.

A political party can take a manifesto, which is basically a collection of lies, half truth's and false promises, and get millions of people to vote for it.

The Salvation Army, as part of God's Church, has got the ultimate manifesto of all time. Truth, love, hope, and eternal life. We should be screaming it from the rooftops.

[Gwen'sMom]

I had 2 choices of SA's to attend. The one in my city is called ABC Community Church and the one a few miles away is called ABC Salvation Army Corps. That is the one I chose to join. I am big on tradition and I figured that the one I joined would have all of the proper traditions of the SA (such as uniform and band). I also figured that I would have a quicker chance of becomming a Soldier.

[Evangelina]

I had 2 choices of SA's to attend. The one in my city is called ABC Community Church and the one a few miles away is called ABC Salvation Army Corps. That is the one I chose to join. I am big on tradition and I figured that the one I joined would have all of the proper traditions of the SA (such as uniform and band). I also figured that I would have a quicker chance of becomming a Soldier.
OK :) Just make sure that God seems welcome there, too.

(not implying that tradition = pushing out God ... although it can happen)

[Andy Broadley]

I had 2 choices of SA's to attend. The one in my city is called ABC Community Church and the one a few miles away is called ABC Salvation Army Corps. That is the one I chose to join. I am big on tradition and I figured that the one I joined would have all of the proper traditions of the SA (such as uniform and band). I also figured that I would have a quicker chance of becomming a Soldier.


:hug: A kindred spirit


I'm proud of the yellow, red and blue.

And those colours don't run.

[TheDag]

Good job the Apostles didn't think like that, or they'd have never made it out of the upper room.

There is an obsession these days with being 'acceptable' and not doing or saying anything that might offend anyone. It's like we are apologising for who we are and what we are.

And I for one won't do that. We are the ARMY that GOD raised up as part of His CHURCH, to preach the Gospel of JESUS.

And if people can't handle that or have negative connections to those words, then that just goes to show how much the CHURCH has failed JESUS.
What you have done is presume that it means that these groups won't preach the gospel and won't have a worship service. You are wrong about this. I often hear the comment that people don't have a problem with God they just don't like christians. Nobody is saying hide and try not to be noticed. Nobody is saying pretend to be someone your not. There are groups in the SA that do not refer to themselves as a church or corps even though they are a church (they don't deny being a church they just try to avoid using the term) and God is doing amazing work through them and yet you condemn them here. Why?

[TheDag]

:hug: A kindred spirit


I'm proud of the yellow, red and blue.

And those colours don't run.
hopefully your not implying that non soldiers do run. As ITF said we do need to be careful that God doesn't get pushed out by tradition. I have attended a church where that has happened to many people but thankfully not all. So as long as there is room for God no problem.

[Andy Broadley]

What you have done is presume that it means that these groups won't preach the gospel and won't have a worship service. You are wrong about this.


I presume nothing of the kind.




I often hear the comment that people don't have a problem with God they just don't like christians.


People didn't like the Apostles either. In fact several of them lost their lives because people didn't like what they were saying. But it didn't stop them. If it had, we wouldn't have a Christian Church today



Nobody is saying hide and try not to be noticed. Nobody is saying pretend to be someone your not.

No. But they are trying to pretend not to be something they are. CHRISTIANS in a CHURCH. You can't edit that outa the text.



There are groups in the SA that do not refer to themselves as a church or corps even though they are a church (they don't deny being a church they just try to avoid using the term)

Why?

What are they afraid of?

Why are these people so obsessed with not doing or saying anything that other people might not like?

Jesus spent that vast majority of His teaching saying stuff that a whole bunch of people didn't like. And what he told Peter he wasd gonna build on him wasd a CHURCH.

And now it's not acceptable to use the term?

Gimme a break:doh:


and God is doing amazing work through them

All the more reason for taking a pride in being part of His CHURCH





and yet you condemn them here. Why?


I condemn no person. What I dislike is the act of trying to turn God's Army into just another nondescript happy clappy group, who are too afraid of public opinion to stand up tall and openly call themselves a CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

[Andy Broadley]

hopefully your not implying that non soldiers do run.

Nope. Never suggested that for a second. Go to any 'traditional' salvation Army corps, and you will find plenty of non uniformed Salvationists serving God just as much as the uniformed ones.




As ITF said we do need to be careful that God doesn't get pushed out by tradition.

Absolutely. And I'd be the first to start screaming about it if that happened.





So as long as there is room for God no problem.


Room for God?

Brother, you don't make 'room' for God in The Salvation Army.

God IS The Salvation Army.

Always has been, and always will be.

It's the reason we were brought into being (by God), and it's the reason we exist today.

If there is a danger of God getting pushed to one side, then that danger lies with those groups who seek to edit from the text the bits that public opinion might find unpalletable

[Amisk]

While I work under the S.A. banner I am not a soldier in uniform. When the Newf. and I came into the army we were much impressed with the people and the work they do in the community.

Here in Canada there are a lot of church denominations running to this title of community church. I don't know particularly why, but I have a couple of guesses.

It appears to me that maybe they hope that it covers up the failures of the past. Maybe it also makes the mega churches which are the craze of the day look like they are local instead of denominations with headquarters in Kansas City or London, etc., I don't know.

It appears that in the S.A. corps that we have been involved in, that there is a tendency toward older congregations. The number of young families seems to be fading. There is also a number of folks that I am aware of who attend solely in order to play in the band. Some of these leave me concerned because their lifestyle outside the church is questionable.

The younger folks seem to want to shed the uniforms, I suspect that they feel it marks them when they are on the street in uniform. It does.

Personally the SA has nothing to be ashamed or worry about when they are on the street. True the uniform marks them, but like a police officer on the beat or member of the Princes Pat's (a Canadian Military Regiment for our non Canadian readers) the uniform is looked up to by all around them.

Talk to any Canadian Vet. and you hear the admiration in their voice as they tell you about their experience oversea with the S.A. A elderly vet recently told me about Brigadier Mary Janet Climpson who gave her life at Dieppe in France. He too had been to Dieppe and although he never met her in person, he had never forgotten what the SA had done there. I had never heard of the lady and when I turned to the Inter-net there was only very a short notation. Still she ought to be numbered among the heroes of the faith. Maybe the lack of emphases on the pass in our present is why the young don't have the same feelings for the uniform and what it stands for. Maybe the S.A. needs to stress their history so the young see why the S.A. sprang up on the streets of London and how their soldiers of yester-years risked their lives on the battle fields of the world serving their fellow man's material needs and hoping to have opportunity to win them to the Lord. In spite of the fact I don't at present wear the uniform, I look with admiration on those who do.

Unfortunately I have notice a number folks in the corps who give mental ascent to the gospel of salvation kind of seem to put their works in place of repentance. This worries me, especially in this day and age when most Evangelical churches seem to headed in a dozen different directions with little or no accent on repentance of sin, heaven or hell. They have people who sit in their pews Sunday after Sunday who have never accepted Christ as their saviour and likely never will since there is little or no urgency from the pulpits of the Evangelical church to do so anymore.

While there may be reason for some condemnation of the old time preachers of the past who preached Hell Fire and Brimstone, we need to realize that our present day soft soap preaching has failed to reach many for the Lord. Changing the name from Salvation Army Citadel to Salvation Community Church and shedding the uniform will do little if we don't preach the full gospel of the Bible with the warnings of Hell and Heaven, and the need to live a life of holiness.

[TheDag]

No. But they are trying to pretend not to be something they are. CHRISTIANS in a CHURCH. You can't edit that outa the text.

But calling yourself a community of christians is not hiding who you are either so why are you saying it is?


Why?

What are they afraid of?

Why are these people so obsessed with not doing or saying anything that other people might not like?

Jesus spent that vast majority of His teaching saying stuff that a whole bunch of people didn't like. And what he told Peter he wasd gonna build on him was a CHURCH.

And now it's not acceptable to use the term?

Gimme a break

Ok I'll give you a break if you assure me that when your feeling happy that you tell people your gay. If you don't then you might like to consider that some people when the hear the word church think paedophile. It's like trying to tell some people about a loving father in heaven when the only father they knew sexually abused them. Sometimes you need to find a different approach. It doesn't make the old approach wrong but the new approach isn't wrong either.
Not to mention that if it is a church then why do we call it an army if it is a church. You in post #2 emphasize that it is the salvation ARMY not salvation community church.

Nope. Never suggested that for a second. Go to any 'traditional' salvation Army corps, and you will find plenty of non uniformed Salvationists serving God just as much as the uniformed ones.
My comment was more just an observation on how easily short posts can be read with a different meaning to the one intended. I'm sure it wasn't your meaning but I still actually have no idea what you meant by your comment but thats ok.

Room for God?
Brother, you don't make 'room' for God in The Salvation Army.
God IS The Salvation Army.
Always has been, and always will be.
It's the reason we were brought into being (by God), and it's the reason we exist today.
I never said we make room for God. I said as long as there is room for God. There is a difference.


If there is a danger of God getting pushed to one side, then that danger lies with those groups who seek to edit from the text the bits that public opinion might find unpalletable
Actually one of the groups here in Aus is actually starting under the mission team rather than under the traditional DHQ. That sounds as if they have a much bigger emphasis on getting out there and keeping in line with the mission of the salvation army and not denying who they are because they have a huge mission emphasis that seems to be missing from alot of corps from my observations and listening to peoples comments.

[Gwen'sMom]

:hug: A kindred spirit


I'm proud of the yellow, red and blue.

And those colours don't run.

I am very proud too that one day I will actually be a Soldier. In my heart right now I am!:holy:

[Andy Broadley]

I am very proud too that one day I will actually be a Soldier. In my heart right now I am!:holy:


I shall consider it an honour to serve alongside you:)

[Andy Broadley]

Dag and Amisk. I'm going to respond to you fully, but things are too busy at work just now.

I'll reply as soon as time allows me to give the thought and attention your posts need and deserve.

[sreno7]

My city has always had a couple of community churches, one army the other's not. The Salvation Army community church has flags and uniforms and my sixteen year old just enrolled as a soldier. I have heard many say that they didn't know the Salvation Army was a church as well as a social service agency so that could clarify it. BTW when referring to the church, the people in it as a whole, it is referred to as the Nanaimo Corps.

[Evangelina]

The younger folks seem to want to shed the uniforms, I suspect that they feel it marks them when they are on the street in uniform. It does.

Personally the SA has nothing to be ashamed or worry about when they are on the street. True the uniform marks them, but like a police officer on the beat or member of the Princes Pat's (a Canadian Military Regiment for our non Canadian readers) the uniform is looked up to by all around them.

Talk to any Canadian Vet. and you hear the admiration in their voice as they tell you about their experience oversea with the S.A. A elderly vet recently told me about Brigadier Mary Janet Climpson who gave her life at Dieppe in France. He too had been to Dieppe and although he never met her in person, he had never forgotten what the SA had done there. I had never heard of the lady and when I turned to the Inter-net there was only very a short notation. Still she ought to be numbered among the heroes of the faith. Maybe the lack of emphases on the pass in our present is why the young don't have the same feelings for the uniform and what it stands for. Maybe the S.A. needs to stress their history so the young see why the S.A. sprang up on the streets of London and how their soldiers of yester-years risked their lives on the battle fields of the world serving their fellow man's material needs and hoping to have opportunity to win them to the Lord. In spite of the fact I don't at present wear the uniform, I look with admiration on those who do.
It is stories like these that highlight to me one of the problems of the Salvation Army today. The Salvation Army DID great things for God and helped a lot of people. In the past. It's not always so inspiring to look at the Salvation Army of the last 20-30 years. I think young people are rejecting the uniform not because of what it used to mean, or what it means to people of previous generations - but because to them it speaks of comfort, of settling, of putting on a good show without a deep dedication to God. They see some of the current negatives, instead of the past positives.

[sreno7]

Reading the magazine that USED to be called the War Cry I see that as an issue that is being addressed. Twenty years ago I heard the phrase "well when the Salvation Army first started that was the way they did things" and no one seemed to know why we were still doing them.
The identity issue is starting to be explored by the younger generation and that is a good thing as long as they don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I think here in Canada we are doing some very progressive things with the two inner city ministries one in VAncouver and one in Toronto and to have the option of War college along with regular training college. Our youth group is excited to go to the inner city and participate in the RAW program and see what the younger people are doing to help the people the army was formed originally to serve.

[Amisk]

Dag and Amisk. I'm going to respond to you fully, but things are too busy at work just now.

I'll reply as soon as time allows me to give the thought and attention your posts need and deserve.


Good Evening Andy:

I am still waiting with interest for your reply. Did you get busy and forget about old Amisk?

Another thing I been wondering about is you write as if you are a member of the S.A., are you an officer?

:wave: