Forgiving Dr. Mengele

[plum]

anyone heard of or seen this documentary? it looks like it's really worth seeing... here's one synnopsis:
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809265671/info

Eva Mozes Kor and her twin sister, Miriam, were victims of Nazi doctor Josef Mengele's cruel genetic experiments--an experience that would haunt them their entire lives. We follow Eva's metamorphosis from embittered survivor to tireless advocate for reconciliation. This unexpected transformation was sparked when Eva, in an attempt to get information about the experiments, met with another former Auschwitz doctor. Eva's ideas about justice, revenge and the possibility of healing through forgiveness--as well as the passionate opposition from other survivors--became a window to a larger discussion of the many ways people define forgiveness.

Here is a review: http://lookingcloser.org/movie%20reviews/A-G/guest-forgivingdrmengele-morefield.htm

[Sephania]

Yes, Forgiveness is the biggest healer there is, because it is HaShems will, no matter what.

[plum]

i think the act of humble forgiveness is possibly the strongest act of humankind.

[Sephania]

And most G-d like thing we can do.

:)

[plum]

is forgiveness love?

since G-d is Love...


perhaps it is simply one facet of the prism that is "love"

[Talmidah]

Can you forgive someone if they have not/did not repent, change their ways, and at least attempt to fix what wrongs they did?

[CovenantRay]

Can you forgive someone if they have not/did not repent, change their ways, and at least attempt to fix what wrongs they did?

Dear Achoti:

You've nailed the question burning in my mind. I might add another question, Can you forgive someone if they have not asked for forgiveness?

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Talmidah]

Dear Achoti:

You've nailed the question burning in my mind. I might add another question, Can you forgive someone if they have not asked for forgiveness?

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

That question is actually the main crux of my question...I didn't articulate it correctly. I look forward to reading the thoughts here.

[Tishri1]

Matthew 6:12 12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Matthew 6:14-15 14 "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Mark 11:25-26 25 "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions. 26 "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."

Luke 23:33-34 33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

John 20:22-23 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

[CovenantRay]

Matthew 6:12 12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Matthew 6:14-15 14 "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Mark 11:25-26 25 "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions. 26 "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."

Luke 23:33-34 33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

John 20:22-23 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Dear Tishri:

I think you've caught me in a "duh" moment. We ARE to forgive, and I can think of other scriptures that support this (now that I AM thinking).

Now comes the confession part....

Being raised Jewish, my mother escaping the holocaust by having a dual citizenship, I'm having a problem forgiving some of the monsters in history. Hitler, Mengele, Goebbles, and others of Nazi Germany; Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple; the Abomination by Antiochus, any number of evil characters in the Old Testament....

I may be harboring unforgiveness in my heart. The Ruach HaKodesh still has work to do with me. [Always] More to pray about....

If someone wrongs me, personally, I have a much easier time to forgive them than if they would harm my mishbocha or worse if they harm any of my family.

I leave it up to HaShem to take vengence upon evil, and as scriptures teach us that He has many rooms in Heaven, I'd hope that He would have special rooms in Hell for those horrible characters who brought pain, suffering, and death to so many.

Climbing off of my rickety soapbox now.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Talmidah]

I didn't realize there was such a different paradigm when it comes to the issue of forgiveness. This is interesting though :)

[Talmidah]

Sorry to keep asking questions. I just keep thinking about this.

So, can a person forgive someone for something that was not done personally to them? Or can a person only forgive someone else for something that was done to them personally, regardless of whether that someone repents are asks for forgiveness?

[Tishri1]

Dear Tishri:

I think you've caught me in a "duh" moment. We ARE to forgive, and I can think of other scriptures that support this (now that I AM thinking).

Now comes the confession part....

Being raised Jewish, my mother escaping the holocaust by having a dual citizenship, I'm having a problem forgiving some of the monsters in history. Hitler, Mengele, Goebbles, and others of Nazi Germany; Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple; the Abomination by Antiochus, any number of evil characters in the Old Testament....

I may be harboring unforgiveness in my heart. The Ruach HaKodesh still has work to do with me. [Always] More to pray about....

If someone wrongs me, personally, I have a much easier time to forgive them than if they would harm my mishbocha or worse if they harm any of my family.

I leave it up to HaShem to take vengence upon evil, and as scriptures teach us that He has many rooms in Heaven, I'd hope that He would have special rooms in Hell for those horrible characters who brought pain, suffering, and death to so many.

Climbing off of my rickety soapbox now.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:You write with so much honesty and compassion Ray it's hard to imagine you harbor unforgiveness:hug:

When you think of these monsters does your heart rate increase, do you start to run tapes in your head about all they did and find it hard to turn them off, do you have to distract your self in order to calm down (TV, food , liquor) Does talking about them give you a surge of energy (or a headache) Do you start to take it out on your loved ones after the though of them (or conversations about them) comes up...Are you stuck in your life and not growing emotionally and spiritually because of these people?

I think we may see evil in the world and HATE it but IMO true bitterness is a prison we enter that no one can release us from as the lock is on the inside...We must forgive or we sentence ourselves to this prison...

BTW I think we all have unforgiveness of some kind...I think the enemy will try his best to see to it that we fall into this temptation even a lttle bit, and it's up to us to be on guard for the symptoms of unforgiveness

BUT being angry in general at the evil in this world is something else I think.....just me:wave:

[CovenantRay]

You write with so much honesty and compassion Ray it's hard to imagine you harbor unforgiveness:hug:

When you think of these monsters does your heart rate increase, do you start to run tapes in your head about all they did and find it hard to turn them off, do you have to distract your self in order to calm down (TV, food , liquor) Does talking about them give you a surge of energy (or a headache) Do you start to take it out on your loved ones after the though of them (or conversations about them) comes up...Are you stuck in your life and not growing emotionally and spiritually because of these people?

I think we may see evil in the world and HATE it but IMO true bitterness is a prison we enter that no one can release us from as the lock is on the inside...We must forgive or we sentence ourselves to this prison...

BTW I think we all have unforgiveness of some kind...I think the enemy will try his best to see to it that we fall into this temptation even a lttle bit, and it's up to us to be on guard for the symptoms of unforgiveness

BUT being angry in general at the evil in this world is something else I think.....just me:wave:

Dear Tishri:

Your compliment was very kind and a blessing, todah rabah.

With introspection, there's a kind of 6000 year consciousness of wrongs against the Jewish people. HaShem has seen us through them, if even through a remnant. There's a kind of "persecution complex", but one based upon so many examples throughout history that the Christian persecutions -- though horrific -- don't quite equal.

It's quite difficult to let these things go. My recently deceased father, was raised in Brooklyn during the depression. He spoke of restaurants there having signs that said "NO JEWS OR DOGS" on the door. He spoke of being called a filthy jew, kike, and I've been called a Christ killer.

The questions you asked about how these examples of evil make me feel and my coping mechanisms go -- None of those fit. Jews are urged, along with the rest of humanity, to "Never Forget". I pray the Kaddish for those victims of evil. I'm comforted by the knowledge that HaShem is just and that there will be a judgement of those who've persecuted us.

I don't feel consumed by hate, nor stunted in my spiritual and emotional growth by this. Perhaps a bit of dissonance between the directive to never forget and yet many scriptures directing us to forgive others as the L-rd forgives us.

This is something to meditate upon in my private prayer time, letting the Ruach HaKodesh lead me as He may.

Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Tishri1]

PS I'm not making lite of your feelings for these monsters Ray, no not at all! I just dont think you are in unforgiveness or sin ....I mean, I dont know how these guys affect your life day by day...

PSS I dont think a person who is in unforgiveness is bad either, we all have unforgiveness hiding in us and are at different stages of bondage to it...(I can think of something I need to go pray about as I write this) I pray for the ones who are truly feeling like they are in a pit over their bitterness....(Been there and it is no fun!)

PSSS and we all know that the perpetrator:mad: who hurts us and causes us to be bitter deserves to be punished , forgiveness is not about them, it's about us , our freedom is at stake and that is what I mean by saying unforgiveness is bad, as it punishes us when we should be free:sigh:

[Tishri1]

Hey you went and replied before I could get my PSSSSSS's out!:D (actually a friend stopped by before I could push "submit" )

I totally understand, and I was thinking about that myself.... "Never Forget!"


But will the desendants of the Monsters who have come to believe and love the Jews recieve a cold shoulder in the Messianic Kingdom?

:pray:
I didn't think so:clap:


PS I hate:mad:(In a righteous anger way) all those guys too, and I dooooooooo understand Ray

Everyone here does..."We Must never forget....!"

[Bon]

Dear Achoti:

You've nailed the question burning in my mind. I might add another question, Can you forgive someone if they have not asked for forgiveness?

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

Can you let your unforgiveness simmer within your heart?

Bon

[Talmidah]

What exactly is the meaning of forgiveness/unforgiveness to the members of this forum?

[stone]

For me, if someone does something that makes me upset, then they may feel bad at the time for doing or saying something that made me upset. Sometimes someone may want to intentionally try and make you feel upset.

I was once told by a person i know that you should never let anyone know if they have made you upset.

I've learned that once you let someone know how to push your buttons, then they will sometime down the road, if you upset them, push your buttons.

I can't think of anything that upset me, o wait, yes i can. the guy that broke into my vehicle and stole my radio, and smashed out my window. Yea. that made me upset most definately.

I learned that i should forgive even the thief that steals from me. I'll fill you guys in on something about this. I pretty much know of the group of local kids that are doing these things around here. They are all in a street gang here. I've learned that just about every kid around here is in this gang. Some of them have better clothes than me. Anyrate, one of the kids, one of the bad kids just totally lost his mind right after this happened i heard. He got into an argument with his mother and was cussing her out and then he opened the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. took out the milk and poured it all on her head, then he started hitting her i believe. The police were called because of the violence that had errupted and took him off for awhile. He's back now, but i know he is also in that gang. Personally, i think they all need to be whipped.

From personal experience, you can forgive folks for bad things that they do, but they still house bad demons within themselves, and whether they are forgiven or not, they still have to reap what they sow.

Forgiveing others benefits more the one that is forgiveing than who is being forgiven.

[Bon]

I think that when we choose not to forgive (whatever it may be)...we can tend to dwell on the problem and it can become all consuming, leading to Un-Godly behaviour, rendering us no better in our own actions.

Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me;
I will pay the man back for what he has done."

To forgive....is to live the Will of YHWH through His Word.
If we model our lives upon His Word....then we will LOVE instead of harbour anger and resentment towards our fellow man.

Bon

[Amora]

And most G-d like thing we can do.

:)

How do you understand the famous verse:

"Hashem, Hashem el rachum vechanun.... venakah, lo yenaka, poked avon avot al banim veal benai banim, al shilaishim veal rebaim"?

I never agree with the "vengefull" god idea, but retribution is certainly there.

And for those who fast today, have a usefull (and easy) fast.

[Steve Petersen]

Didn't Jesus say that some things will not be forgiven by God? How then can He hold us to a higher standard than Himself?

[plum]

is it a higher standard? if one sins against G-d, do they sin against you or me?
Yeshua asks us to forgive those who wrong us and to make right with those whom we have wronged. These sins are human-to-human. But G-d deals with much more. We do not forgive the sin of blasphemy against the Spirit because that sin is not against us, right?

i don't think i'm being clear

[Andyman_1970]

Doesn't Jesus say if we don't forgive others the Father won't forgive us (paraphrase)?

Doesn't Jesus also indicate that we are to unconditionally love our enemies? Can you unconditionally love someone and not forgive them?

[stone]

What if someone or some group is trying and wanting to kill you, can you forgive them after they kill you? Can you forgive them if they do not kill you but kill those close to you?

and what about war? even g-d sent Israel out to kill off entire nations of people and not leave one soul breathing?

[Andyman_1970]

What if someone or some group is trying and wanting to kill you, can you forgive them after they kill you?

Since I'd be dead I can't.

Can you forgive them if they do not kill you but kill those close to you?

Sure why couldn't you...........doesn't our Rabbi teach we are to forgive those who wrong us?

and what about war? even g-d sent Israel out to kill off entire nations of people and not leave one soul breathing?

What about war? God specifically commanded those people to do that with regards to a specific situation..........has He specifically commanded people to do that today?

[stone]

what about 9-11, perhaps Bush should have just said that he forgives them and left it at that?

and Israel, this is a shining example of tolerance and forgiveness in attempts to obtain peace with a beast that only desires to consume and destroy all of the jewish nation, perhaps they should continue to live and let live, but the 150 missiles in one month...?? and kidnappings... doesn't seem that it was going to stop at all, only increase.

something is not right with this teaching. You can not allow yourself to be killed and destroyed to become slaves. or just annihilated

[plum]

what about 9-11, perhaps Bush should have just said that he forgives them and left it at that?

and Israel, this is a shining example of tolerance and forgiveness in attempts to obtain peace with a beast that only desires to consume and destroy all of the jewish nation, perhaps they should continue to live and let live, but the 150 missiles in one month...?? and kidnappings... doesn't seem that it was going to stop at all, only increase.

something is not right with this teaching. You can not allow yourself to be killed and destroyed to become slaves. or just annihilated
i'm curious about your responses, stone. it seems to my eyes (and figurative ears) that you are speaking out of a personal experience or emotion. if so, i certainly respect it. Everyone is coming from somewhere.

but let's not forget where G-d is coming from. He is Just. And righteous. and Perfect beyond our measly little comprehension. :) We wrong him innumerable times. billions of us. Spitting in his face, killing His Son! Killing His people, persecuting each other, idolizing the created rather than the creator, thinking of ourselves as bigger than the infinite!
And He has no limits to His forgiveness.

do you feel like there should be a limit to forgiveness for humans?
why so? how do you intepret the very clear words of Messiah on this matter?

I am not meaning to challenge you brother. I am eager to know how you truly see things as I think that will help me better get to know you :)

[stone]

are they very clear? or are they also words that should be examined within a context as we have done with many other teachings and maybe it's for that time?

[stone]

I am not meaning to challenge you brother. I am eager to know how you truly see things as I think that will help me better get to know you :)

I understand, this is just not makeing sense to me. I want to understand clearly what is taught on this.

[plum]

are they very clear? or are they also words that should be examined within a context as we have done with many other teachings and maybe it's for that time?
i simply don't see how he could be mistaken. though i would be glad to hear why.

i didn't want to do a dozen copy&pastes in here so i searched on crosswalk for the word "forgive" in the Gospel accounts. here are the results:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=forgive&section=8&version=niv&language=en

[stone]

i simply don't see how he could be mistaken. though i would be glad to hear why.

i didn't want to do a dozen copy&pastes in here so i searched on crosswalk for the word "forgive" in the Gospel accounts. here are the results:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=forgive&section=8&version=niv&language=en

Mt 6:12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+6:12&version=niv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

*now wouldn't this also have to be inline with what is taught in the torah as well?



Mt 6:14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

*this read in context shows that it follows this:

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

*so it is as i have suspected, these teachings on forgiveness should also be studied in context just as the teachings of all foods are now clean.

I will put something together on this, this evening.

[plum]

i totally don't understand what you're trying to say. how is this not in context? is forgiveness a cultural thing?

if you'd like, find Torah references that disagree....

[stone]

the torah speaks of penalties for crimes, surely there is still some penalties that have to be inflicted for crimes. Murder, rape, these are some laws that even man uphold that father said to uphold. Would you allow a murderer freedom, even if he is a serial murderer?

[Andyman_1970]

You can not allow yourself to be killed and destroyed to become slaves. or just annihilated

I trust that if I strive for obedience with regards to this subject, even when it flies in the face of human logic, God will take care of defending me.

Vengence is the Lord's, my job as a talmidim of Jesus is to love others as myself, period. God's job is to dispense justice.

[Sephania]

Dear Tishri:

I think you've caught me in a "duh" moment. We ARE to forgive, and I can think of other scriptures that support this (now that I AM thinking).

Now comes the confession part....

Being raised Jewish, my mother escaping the holocaust by having a dual citizenship, I'm having a problem forgiving some of the monsters in history. Hitler, Mengele, Goebbles, and others of Nazi Germany; Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple; the Abomination by Antiochus, any number of evil characters in the Old Testament....

I may be harboring unforgiveness in my heart. The Ruach HaKodesh still has work to do with me. [Always] More to pray about....

If someone wrongs me, personally, I have a much easier time to forgive them than if they would harm my mishbocha or worse if they harm any of my family.

I leave it up to HaShem to take vengence upon evil, and as scriptures teach us that He has many rooms in Heaven, I'd hope that He would have special rooms in Hell for those horrible characters who brought pain, suffering, and death to so many.

Climbing off of my rickety soapbox now.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:I understand what you are saying Ray, but it is not for us to hold grudges, no matter what one has done, we must believe HaShem is good to his word and He speaks much on this. He will recompence. We are to forgive, because, why? because we are not perfect. Even though we may not have done the henious things some have, we have all sinned, and have all fallen short and all in need of a Savior.

I don't believe our forgiveness is based on if a person asks to be forgiven or not. If we do not forgive it breeds things not of the L-RD. Bitterness, anger, hatred, strife, and this in turn works in our bodies and lives like a cancer, it eats us alive. The L-RD asks us to forgive because we are in need of forgiveness (all are) and 2, because He knows how it will benefit US< not particularly them.

We cannot dwell on these atrocities, else we are consumed and then we have no room for helping in the here and now and serving the L-RD as we should and reaching out , in love , to others who do not know him , or have been taught such lies that breed such hatred.

We must do unto them as we would have done unto us, else we are not showing Messiah in us, who came not to judge the world ( yet) but to save it.

We must remember this is all a spiritual battle, we just see it enacted out in the physical. We have to choose whose side we are on, there are really only two sides, and only one right and true.

Shalom
~Z

[plum]

amen absolutely 100% to what Z said...

[Sephania]

How do you understand the famous verse:

"Hashem, Hashem el rachum vechanun.... venakah, lo yenaka, poked avon avot al banim veal benai banim, al shilaishim veal rebaim"?

I never agree with the "vengefull" god idea, but retribution is certainly there.

And for those who fast today, have a usefull (and easy) fast.
Shalom Amora,


Yes, and He is the only one to be worthy to take it. But as he also says, He is merciful ( does He have to be?) , He is longsuffering, so He allows grace to multiply even though we don't deserve it. But I believe that he makes that sin to be 'passed down' so it isn't easily forgotten, but there is always teshuvah.

He speaks of cutting us off for certain things, but that is from our people, but is it from Him too?

I see from a different side than you for sure, I believe certain 'standards with certain counsequences were in place before Yeshuas atonement. I understand the many reasons for this, and am in agreement ( I won't go into it here as it would derail the thread).

I believe it mainly to be a purity issue, which is not so detrimental at this stage in history.

But I don't believe He has ever said he would forgive the guilty without repentance, but that is Him, we are not Him and therefore are on equal status with every other human being on earth wiether we can see that or not, He is not on our level, He requires repentance and sacrifice, we have no authority to do such.

:)

~Z

[Bon]

My sister's partner, a Jew, whose grand-mother was murdered by the Germans in the 2nd world war.....holds a grudge...and you know where he is today?...He is separated from his God. He is an un-believer.

He says: "How can there be a God when He let 6 million of my people die at the hands of Hitler?"

He is not forgiving.

Being human, it is easy to forget that what we hope for is that of a spiritual nature, and it is how we behave now, inside and out, that will determine our reward at the end of this fleshly life.

Grudges drive us away from our Heavenly Father.

Bon

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Mishbocha:

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input in this area. It would seem as though there's a gray scale in my mind, rather than black and white on this issue.

I've not attained the level of spiritual perfection -- far from it -- this is one area of my "walk" that needs attention.

Without sounding like a braggart, or meaning to be one, I gave tzidakah to a couple who's car broke down today. It's hard [in the flesh] to give when there isn't enough, but when the need is right there, it's right to give. This area of my "walk" is a little healthier today. I give HaShem the praise for teaching me this today.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[plum]

always a great lesson to learn :)

[Tishri1]

bitterness-is a very damaging emotion perhaps the worst enemy in a persons life:sigh:

[MattyJames]

Can you forgive someone if they have not/did not repent, change their ways, and at least attempt to fix what wrongs they did?

Well said.

[MattyJames]

what about 9-11, perhaps Bush should have just said that he forgives them and left it at that?

and Israel, this is a shining example of tolerance and forgiveness in attempts to obtain peace with a beast that only desires to consume and destroy all of the jewish nation, perhaps they should continue to live and let live, but the 150 missiles in one month...?? and kidnappings... doesn't seem that it was going to stop at all, only increase.

something is not right with this teaching. You can not allow yourself to be killed and destroyed to become slaves. or just annihilated

once again I agree with this thinking. :thumbsup:

Its interesting to see, the Ladies on the Forum seem to be more forgiving and forgeting then the men. I know its a generalization but its interesting none the less.

As I stand, I find Ray and Stones thinking more in line with my own.

MJ

[plum]

what about forgiving for your own sake instead of theirs?

by harboring unforgiveness you harm yourself more than punish anyone else....


see, all of this is out of my personal experiences in the past few years. i have had to forgive those who did not ask for it or repent (which, as you know, means to turn back to G-d, not just say you're sorry). grudges are poison.
I can't speak to war because I have not been in it and I am not feeling convicted to do the forgiving in those areas.



let's keep this topic about one-on-one forgiveness

[Tishri1]

Ephesians 4:26 - 5:1 26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity. 28 Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need. 29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. :prayer:

[Sephania]

Shalom Mishbocha:

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input in this area. It would seem as though there's a gray scale in my mind, rather than black and white on this issue.

I've not attained the level of spiritual perfection -- far from it -- this is one area of my "walk" that needs attention.

Without sounding like a braggart, or meaning to be one, I gave tzidakah to a couple who's car broke down today. It's hard [in the flesh] to give when there isn't enough, but when the need is right there, it's right to give. This area of my "walk" is a little healthier today. I give HaShem the praise for teaching me this today.

Todah,

CovenantRay :prayer: Amein, may there be always enough to share and more to spare! ( money and forgiveness)

:hug:

~Z

[MattyJames]

what about forgiving for your own sake instead of theirs?

by harboring unforgiveness you harm yourself more than punish anyone else....


see, all of this is out of my personal experiences in the past few years. i have had to forgive those who did not ask for it or repent (which, as you know, means to turn back to G-d, not just say you're sorry). grudges are poison.
I can't speak to war because I have not been in it and I am not feeling convicted to do the forgiving in those areas.



let's keep this topic about one-on-one forgiveness

Sorry Eierne, I'm not picking on you...you just get me thinking thats all :wave: .

Theres people I havn't forgiven, but I don't hold a grudge against them. See, they have never asked for fogivness, in fact they don't even think they have done wrong, even though I have pointed it out to them where I was offended/ hurt. But be assured, I will NEVER trust them again unless they repented nor will I EVER put myself in a vulnerable position (emotionally/ Spiritually) with them unless they repented, even though at the time of the offence we were great mates, in the faith might I add. But I still visit them, and laugh with them, I'm not all bitter and twisted over it. Thats where Faith comes into play. I trust that HaShem will deal with these people as he sees fit. While they continue to walk disorderly I will do as Paul commands in 2 Thes 3:6 "...to widthdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly."

Is forgivness a one sided deal?? I've always seen it as two sided. I remain unforgiving to these people, but that doesn't mean I'm effected by it, I hardly even think about it anymore. Its now between them and God.

MJ

[plum]

i think forgiving someone is between G-d and you. There is another side that involves the other person of course. But not forgiving someone and not giving them another chance (you said you would be on your guard and never trust thema again) is not what I understand loving one's neighbor to mean. That is all.

[visionary]

Forgive them, for they know not what they do....