question about OSAS

[BjBarnett]

hello :wave:

I believe OSAS is a pretty common belief (correct me if im wrong) among baptist and I was wondering if you guys wouldnt mind explaining the doctrine of OSAS to me. If you have the time could you give scriptural support for it and just give me an overall of how it works and why. Thanks in advanced :)

[Flynmonkie]

Eph 1:12-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.

Do you believe Gods promises? Satan loves nothing better than for us to question our salvation.

John 10:26-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Rom 8:37-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

And since Christ's death on the cross has completely cleansed us from all sin, past, present and future... then, there is "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1-2). We are justified in our walk by Christs blood. We have been told we are not perfect, but we should strive to be better. As we mature in our faith we start to realize those sins we have issue with and start to work toward putting them away. Mistakes will be made because we are imperfect flesh as Paul describes, but this will not separate us eternally from our Father. 1 John 1:9 says: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Cor 3:12-15 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Just as any parent to a child, you never abandon your children while they are learning by trial and error at times. We all fall short of the Glory of God, Glorification (perfection) cannot happen in this lifetime. Sanctification is a life long process of learning and growing each day with the assurance that we are His. We are a part of Christs body through faith alone. 1 Corinthians 12:18, Ephesians 5:30. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
He cannot deny what is His.

Here is a simple link you can view:
http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

Got Questions:
http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

[MrJim]

Just stopping in to say it's not an anabaptist doctrine...

...and to say-that's a nice banana :D

[aReformedPatriot]

hello :wave:

I believe OSAS is a pretty common belief (correct me if im wrong) among baptist and I was wondering if you guys wouldnt mind explaining the doctrine of OSAS to me. If you have the time could you give scriptural support for it and just give me an overall of how it works and why. Thanks in advanced :)

How are we supposed to take you seriously when your wearing a bannana suit!?!?!?!?!

Good question, I'll try and throw my two cents in after I get off work.

[MrJim]

How are we supposed to take you seriously when your wearing a bannana suit!?!?!?!?!

Good question, I'll try and throw my two cents in after I get off work.

With all the flies he must be gettin' ripe^_^

[pastel]

I didn't know that. Truly... my mother says she is an anabaptist, and yet she believes in that doctrine. Now I'm confused. :confused: Of course she has been to other Baptist churches, so perhaps she did not get it from there?

Just stopping in to say it's not an anabaptist doctrine...

[PETE_]

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]
1. Phil. 1:6; II Peter 1:10; Rom. 8:28-30; John 10:28-29; I John 3:9; 5:18; I Peter 1:5, 9
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]
2. Psa. 89:3-4, 28-33; II Tim. 2:18-19; Jer. 31:3
3. Heb. 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; 17:11, 24; Rom. 8:33-39; Luke 22:32
4. John 14:16-17; I John 2:27; 3:9
5. Jer. 32:40; Psa. 89:34-37; see Jer. 31:31-34
6. John 6:38-40; 10:28; II Thess. 3:3; I John 2:19
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve his Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]
7. Exod. 32:21; Jonah 1:3, 10; Psa. 51:14; Matt. 26:70, 72, 74
8. II Sam. 12:9, 13; Gal. 2:11-14
9. Num. 20:12; II Sam. 11:27; Isa. 64:7, 9
10. Eph. 4:30
11. Psa. 51:8, 10, 12; Rev. 2:4; Matt. 26:75
12. Isa. 63:17
13. Psa. 32:3-4; 51:8
14. Gen. 12:10-20; II Sam. 12:14; Gal. 2:13
15. Psa. 89:31-32; I Cor. 11:32

[MrJim]

I didn't know that. Truly... my mother says she is an anabaptist, and yet she believes in that doctrine. Now I'm confused. :confused: Of course she has been to other Baptist churches, so perhaps she did not get it from there?

I'll clarify and say "historical anabaptist"...there are all sorts of "modern progressives" out there and hard to keep up with 'em all.

[mesue]

Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)
Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(2 Timothy 1:12)
Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation
For I am persuaded, that neither
death, - you cannot lose it when you die
nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive
nor angels, - cannot take it away from you
nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.
nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.
nor things present, - nothing happening right now
nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.
Nor height, - nothing above you.
nor depth, - nothing below you.
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)
But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

[MrJim]

I agree you can't lose it or have it taken away but you can reject it--become apostate (think Lutheran on this, many of you Calvinists have him in your avatar, maybe the old monk knew something...)

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (Speaking of bishop candidates)

1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

This is a sobering passage...

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

But hey, we all can text battle this one eh?

...and there are baptists that do not follow OSAS.

[Flynmonkie]

I agree you can't lose it or have it taken away but you can reject it--become apostate (think Lutheran on this, many of you Calvinists have him in your avatar, maybe the old monk knew something...)
Denying Christ after knowing is another thing.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

:scratch: I believe these verses Paul is explaining that others will and do try to complicate, or corrupt the gospel with lies (laws, or lawlessness?) This is not concerning Christians, other than being wise to these things. This is Paul asking why they choose to not listen to God, rather listening to the worldy ideas. (False Gospel – Making the Good News, Bad News) IMHCO.

The other verses I believe do speak of turning, a rejection of God. We are graced with free will so yes, we have a choice. However, I do not believe that those earnestly seeking in their walk of faith that these verses would apply. So in this sense, Once saved, always saved.

I can tell you years of experience of doubt and fear, not biblical fear of reverence, but fear of Gods rejection and ultimate condemnation kept me from the gospel. I was never so miserable in my life. Salvation became a rule to keep, and if broken I risked that ultimate rejection from God. When I fully understood that Grace, that assurance of Gods promise, my life has never been the same. It makes me all the more grateful and revere Him even more understanding His absolute unconditional love, even when I screw up. If I said it a million times I will continue to say it -- The true test of salvation is faith and love, not rule keeping.:prayer:

Sure, there are those that misuse these verses, and I think most Christians get that it is wrong, it is living a life of a lie, not faithfulness. You cannot continue to willfully sin and "get into heaven free card" but willful and having a hard time dealing with the flesh side of ourselves are two different things as Paul expressed his struggle. God knows we are imperfect again this is not expected of us. It is a conviction, a heart condition of growing and aiming to be Christ Like in all that we do.

So, for the sake of a faithful Christian in their daily walk of sanctification --Once Saved. Always Saved.:prayer:

For those that reject Christ, I believe God deals with them in His way, and I sure would not want to play on those tracks!:eek:

[DeaconDean]

These issues are not very fairly dealt with in each ones individual denominational beliefs and doctrine. A great many fully believe in OSAS, whereas many do not. This applies to both Anabaptist and Baptist. Few other doctines bring more heated debates than this one.

For those who support it, like myself, John 10:25-29 are the scriptures which we choose to support this.

From a Baptist prespective, looking at Jesus' own words, he said:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." -Jn. 17:12

That son of perdition being Judas Iscariot. He did not lose none that the Lord God sent to Him. We know that God is all-powerfull. Nothing is impossible to Him. No-one is stronger than Him.

"And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?" 2 Chrn. 20:6

I my self can't, and I know of no-one else that can either.

But getting back to where I was going, the whole of the OSAS argument hinges on verse 29. But before I say something about that, I must say also that another piviotal passage of scripture is the parable of the sower.

This bears enormous on the doctrine of OSAS because here you will see three classes of people. Three that claim salvation and aren't saved, and one that is saved.

"Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."-Matt. 13:3-9

In the first class, you have "Christians" who make the confession, yet when old friends or old ways come, they are plucked away. (They were never really saved in the first place) In the next class, you see those who make a confession, endure for a while, but when the heat is on, their faith and beliefs are tested, they fall away also. (Hence, they were never really saved in the first place neither) The same can be said of the seed that fell among the thorns. But in the last class you see those who make the confession, then go out a bear fruit. Some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred fold. They are the ones who are truly saved. Those who are truly saved can never "apostasize." To apostasize would be to reject your salvation, reject God, and all that you know and were taught about Him. A true Christian cannot do that.

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." -John 6:68

And if you see an apostate, one must ask if they ever were really and truly saved in the first place.

John 10:29 says:

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:29

No man, not a false prophet, not a false preacher, not a false Christ can take the saved from God. They might be decieved for a short while, but they can't be taken from Him. If they could, that would make "man" mighter than God. That would make a "man" stronger than the Allmighty." And we know that no man is that. I can't even take myself out of His hand because if I could, that would make me stronger than Him, and I certainly am not that.

What it really boils down to is are they really and truly saved in the first place.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 John 2:19

I believe it with all my heart. I might backslide, but I'll never apostize. If I backslide, I know without a doubt I'll get those spiritual spankings from God until I return.

[BjBarnett]

How are we supposed to take you seriously when your wearing a bannana suit!?!?!?!?!

Good question, I'll try and throw my two cents in after I get off work.
^_^ yeah the flys were getting annoying so when my banana started going bad so I had to get a fly swatter. but i think the swatter is what makes people not take me seriously ;)

[BjBarnett]

thank you all for your replies! they are great! I appreciate them greatly. if anyone has anything to add please feel free to do so.

again Thank you :)

[Flynmonkie]

^_^ yeah the flys were getting annoying so when my banana started going bad so I had to get a fly swatter. but i think the swatter is what makes people not take me seriously ;)
And here I thought Menno sent you over to torment me!!

(flynmonkie->bananna!-> FLY SWATTER?! How mean! ;) )^_^

[sportsfreak4]

what about verses that say you must remain faithful until death...

Revelations 2:10
II Timothy 4:7,8

[DeaconDean]

what about verses that say you must remain faithful until death...

Revelations 2:10
II Timothy 4:7,8

What about what Jesus said:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." -John 17:12

Or:

"...Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." -John 18:9

[Matthan]

Hi all. It's been a while, and I thought I would drop by for a visit. then I read this thread and decided to pitch my two cents in. I won't quote Scripture at all, just a little Christian common sense.

To deny the scriptural fact of "Once Saved, Always Saved", is to deny the Omniscience of God, which is never a good thing to do. He knows everything! Everything that was, and that is, and that ever will be. So, any person who learns of Jesus and His wonderful message, and then who develops a true, heart-felt belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and if that person truly repents of his sin, then he or she will receive a permanent and everlasting baptism by the Holy Spirit entering into and indwelling within forever. That, by the way, is the "baptism of the Spirit" that both Jesus (John, chapter 3) and John the Baptist talk about. They are "born again" of the Spirit at that instant. That is OSAS!

Now, why can't a person lose that salvation? Can't he or she deny or declare to reject the Holy Ghost? Nope, and the reason he or she cannot is as simple as the omniscience of God. He already knows who is a true believer (and loves Christ sufficiently to warrant His Grace), and who is not (the stony ground, thorny, and eaten guys in the parable) (Hey, I didn't say I wouldn't refer to other's use of Scripture, just that I would not quote it).

Now, we know that God never makes a mistake (although He did repent for almost making one), and therein lies the real secret of OSAS. He knows who among us will remain true to Christ, and who will not. Only they will receive baptism by the Holy Spirit. And, He never makes a mistake. Therefore, any person who claims to be a Christian but ends up rejecting God later in life was never a true, spiritually born again Christian to begin with. And, God knew it all along. Therefore, any person who truly is a spiritually born again Christian will never lose his or her salvation, and will never be plucked out of the hand of God.

Once Saved, Always Saved, is just another miracle of God's grace bestowed on those who love Him.

Matthan

(By the way, does this explanation somehow denote or support "predestination" or "fatalism"? Nope, not at all. Why? Because of God's omniscience, that's why! He surely knows who among us [the "elect" of God] will be saved eternally. But, He never, ever causes us to get to that condition. Remember that He is no respecter of persons. We have our own free will. It is how we use that gift (or curse) that gets us to Christ, or not. God may already know our eternal destination, but He does not cause us to arrive there.)

[AV1611VET]

I believe OSAS is a pretty common belief (correct me if im wrong) among baptist and I was wondering if you guys wouldnt mind explaining the doctrine of OSAS to me. If you have the time could you give scriptural support for it and just give me an overall of how it works and why. Thanks in advanced :)
Hello, BJ :wave:

Jesus said in John 5:24---
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Notice that at the point a person is born again, he acquires everlasting life. Now if he ever loses it, then he never had it in the first place.

That's my take on it.

[Matthan]

Why are there so few comments on this threat. I doubt there is a more important subject to discuss.

Matthan

[Flynmonkie]

Why are there so few comments on this threat. I doubt there is a more important subject to discuss.
Matthan
Hi! :wave: I believe it is because many people have become "gun shy" when they see this topic, especially when posted by another denomination. Historically, the debate ensues between those Baptists or Anabaptists that prescribe to this belief and those whom do not and pages and pages of discussion are the result. The issue has been abused. The old timers here become weary of securing their position over and over again and they step back and let someone else do it, until they become tired. IMHOUO (In my humble, obviously uninformed opinion!;) )

But good post by the way! :thumbsup:

[MrJim]

http://sevenofnine.cherrytaco.com/Miscellanea/Emoticons/beatingdeadhorse.gif

It's not an anabaptist belief, and we're as stubborn as the calvinists and the non-calvinist OSASer's. So we just co-habitate and agree to disagree.

No, I don't deny God in denying OSAS, so don't put words into my mouth please.

[MrJim]

...

[Flynmonkie]

No, I don't deny God in denying OSAS, so don't put words into my mouth please.
Oh Menno!! :eek: I did not mean to imply such a thing! You have the right to believe any ole way you want to believe (of course I think there is a better way ;) ) But my support for the post in no way meant to belittle another;:( I guess that just wasn't how I took the post. I read it as Matthans belief. I don’t believe you deny God! :scratch: It is curious why people are so nervous about accepting the thought?

[MrJim]

Oh Menno!! :eek: I did not mean to imply such a thing! You have the right to believe any ole way you want to believe (of course I think there is a better way ;) ) But my support for the post in no way meant to belittle another;:( I guess that just wasn't how I took the post. I read it as Matthans belief. I don’t believe you deny God! :scratch: It is curious why people are so nervous about accepting the thought?

No no little sister it was in reply to matthan's post #18