Baptism

[Iosias]

1. If by baptism all infants are grafted into Christ why are some not saved?
2. What is the relation between faith and baptism?

[pjw]

1. If by baptism all infants are grafted into Christ why are some not saved?
2. What is the relation between faith and baptism?
some good questions there, I look forward to seeing a Lutheran response to these. :)

[LilLamb219]

1. If by baptism all infants are grafted into Christ why are some not saved?
2. What is the relation between faith and baptism?

1. Our sinful nature sometimes wants to take hold and we can reject God. We can reject the faith given to us in baptism.

2. For infants, God gives faith (because the Word is present in baptism) but for adults who believe already, they have faith. Faith grasps onto the gifts that God gives in baptism such as the forgiveness of our sins that was won at the cross.

[Protoevangel]

In 1530, an excelent summary of what Lutherans teach about Baptism was published.

"Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism."

[Edial]

1. If by baptism all infants are grafted into Christ why are some not saved?
Because grafting and being saved are not becessarily synonymous in the context of being justified.

If the child dies while baptized and young - heaven, since the grace of God rests on the child.

If the child grows us and rejects God, loss of salvation (not in the context of justification).

If the child grows up and receives Christ by faith, justification that cannot be lost.

Does the child have or has not faith, I do not know and it is a hypothetical argument in many ways.

2. What is the relation between faith and baptism?
Lutherans claim that baptism imparts faith.
Might be. I do not know.
However, presence of faith by itself does not save.
And some here might disagree on that.

Thanks,
Ed

[MORTANIUS]

Once again I would also like to stress that we Lutherans do not dictate how the Holy Spirit functions or in what capacity.

Jesus Christ has provided us with instruction that is understood to apply through faith and of course through the faith of parents who decide Baptism for their children/infants.

Just as circumcission was not accomplished with permission from the child or expressive faith, Baptism (according to the Apostle Paul) replaces circumcission. We may say that faith as expressed by mature converts is of course intelligable (and of course the belief/faith), as where infants are decided for by their parents (as with circumcission).

I would like to remind people that Baptism does not imply salvation. It is a means of entrance to the sacraments and reception of Gods Grace.

A person can be baptized and never participate in communion with his/her church, or even lead a horrible and sinful life. Baptism is that moment the Holy Spirit receives us into that potential kingdom.

Remember, it is not how we enter this world, but how we leave it! Faith is required thereafter, and Baptism does not absolve our future sins!

I know that most of you know this already, but I thought I'd express it again anyways.

[LilLamb219]

and Baptism does not absolve our future sins!

? Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

In baptism we are given the forgiveness of sins...ALL our sins and as Lutherans, we trust in that complete forgiveness of sins because it was won at the cross for us. So, I don't understand what you mean by future sins. There were some early church fathers who believed that it was best to delay baptism until nearly death because then it would cover their sins...they didn't think baptism covered future sins and thought it best to wait. Is THAT what you mean? Hope not.

[LilLamb219]

However, presence of faith by itself does not save.

I don't understand what you mean by presence of faith by itself does not save? Especially since faith is a connection to the cross and faith is what grasps onto the Gospel so that we believe and trust in the forgiveness won for us. God gives us a gift of faith so we can believe and He does this for our salvation. What more could be missing?

[MORTANIUS]

? Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?



Certainly I will elaborate. If a convert (for example) was baptised today, this does not mean he/she will live their lives free of committing anymore sins.

On the contrary! Baptism does not provide a form of 'indulgence' or saving grace if we do not abide in Gods laws.

If Baptism absolves us from future sins (which it does not) then we are worse off than the Roman Catholic church that sold indulgences giving people liscence to live vicariously and guilt free.

Thats all I'm saying.;)

[LilLamb219]

Well, I'm not really sure what to make of what you have written. Baptism does indeed wash us of our sins (past, present and future) and the Holy Spirit daily renews us in our baptisms because we do still sin since we live in sinful bodies. But baptism does save us because it's connected to the work of Jesus Christ, the cross and forgiveness of sins and is a work of God in us.

You're right that we sin (we still live in sinful bodies) but in our baptisms we are clothed in Christ's righteousness and are completely forgiven of all sins, past, present and future not just the sins we committed before baptism.

[Protoevangel]

Well, I'm not really sure what to make of what you have written. Baptism does indeed wash us of our sins (past, present and future) and the Holy Spirit daily renews us in our baptisms because we do still sin since we live in sinful bodies. But baptism does save us because it's connected to the work of Jesus Christ, the cross and forgiveness of sins and is a work of God in us.

You're right that we sin (we still live in sinful bodies) but in our baptisms we are clothed in Christ's righteousness and are completely forgiven of all sins, past, present and future not just the sins we committed before baptism.
:thumbsup:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LilLamb219 again.

[ricg]

I take it he means that Baptism doesn't work ex opere operato, i.e., it's a means of grace requiring perseverance in the faith, not a lucky charm.

[Iosias]

baptism does save us because it's connected to the work of Jesus Christ, the cross and forgiveness of sins and is a work of God in us.

How so? I thought that justification was a forensic act of God declaring us justified!:)

[Jim47]

Baptizim is one of the means of grace, whereby we recieve faith and forgiveness of our sins.

Ro 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Ro 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Ro 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Ro 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.



Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
Gal 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:1 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate.
Gal 4:2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.
Gal 4:3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world.
Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
Gal 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

[LilLamb219]

How so? I thought that justification was a forensic act of God declaring us justified!

Jim answered it very well.

We were justified at the cross, but God gives us that justification by grace through faith using means. One way is when we hear His Word and believe. Another is through baptism.

[Edial]

If one is justified in the eyes of God as Abraham was through baptism outside of faith or via faith then that child can never "lose salvation", since what the Judge justified no one can "un-justify", including Himself.
His decision is final.

Personal justification (not general, like in justifying the world) somehow differs from salvation.
Salvation and justification are often synonymous in the Scriptures, yet not all the time with the following difference.

Justification is an one time event in a certain point of time during the process of salvation that starts from an infant baptism till death.

Prior to that point of justification (that is by faith), salvation process can be interrupted if one rejects Christ knowingly and willingly "by faith".
(I would rather not discuss whether a child has or has not faith. No one knows. God knows).

Once one receives Christ soberly when grown up, not due to intimidation or peer pressure, but by faith, one is justified by God and can no longer "lose salvation".
The seed of God is in him.

Infant Baptism is one of the impartments of God's grace upon a child just because the parents asked God to bless their child.

Sacraments are "visible" portals into God's grace.

Thanks,
Ed

[C.F.W. Walther]

If one is justified in the eyes of God as Abraham was through baptism outside of faith or via faith then that child can never "lose salvation", since what the Judge justified no one can "un-justify", including Himself.
His decision is final.

Personal justification (not general, like in justifying the world) somehow differs from salvation.
Salvation and justification are often synonymous in the Scriptures, yet not all the time with the following difference.

Justification is an one time event in a certain point of time during the process of salvation that starts from an infant baptism till death.

Prior to that point of justification (that is by faith), salvation process can be interrupted if one rejects Christ knowingly and willingly "by faith".
(I would rather not discuss whether a child has or has not faith. No one knows. God knows).

Once one receives Christ soberly when grown up, not due to intimidation or peer pressure, but by faith, one is justified by God and can no longer "lose salvation".
The seed of God is in him.

Infant Baptism is one of the impartments of God's grace upon a child just because the parents asked God to bless their child.

Sacraments are "visible" portals into God's grace.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed we've been through this "once saved, allways saved" and I'd like to know how you can equate what you're sayin with this saying in 2 Peter? This definitely shows that possibility not to be true.



2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."





:scratch:

[Iosias]

We were justified at the cross, but God gives us that justification by grace through faith using means. One way is when we hear His Word and believe. Another is through baptism.

So how does the justification through the word and justification through baptism differ? And could you expand upon the baptismal aspect please? :)

[MORTANIUS]

I didn't realize I was being placed into some sort of explanatory competition when afterall, all I said was that Baptism isn't a Pass-card to absolute forgiveness if we continue to sin.

I'm not sure why people are confused with what I have typed?

Based on what lilamb has stated, Baptism appears to be (at least to a few you on here) a form of indulgence. The reason I say this is because Baptism does not eliminate or absolve us of future sins we commit.

Our Baptismal whiteness is blemished with sins we commit unless we continue to pray to God for forgiveness. Minus our responsibility to pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, we can't rely on the statement that Baptism absolves us absolutely since we are likely to sin on a daily basis in some regards.

Baptism is but one sacrament of Lutheran/Christian belief. Praying for forgiveness is also required. This is why I'm confused why there is any misunderstanding of what I posted here.

As far as I am aware, I have been brought up and educated within a Lutheran community which has never stated that Baptism absolves sins of the future without Praying for forgiveness. Am I wrong?

[MORTANIUS]

I take it he means that Baptism doesn't work ex opere operato, i.e., it's a means of grace requiring perseverancein the faith, not a lucky charm.

Precisely!!!!:thumbsup: It is our means to enter the communion of our Christian community and approach Christ, receive His life giving blood and flesh, and sheltered by the Grace of the Holy Spirit!

[LilLamb219]

Based on what lilamb has stated, Baptism appears to be (at least to a few you on here) a form of indulgence. The reason I say this is because Baptism does not eliminate or absolve us of future sins we commit.

Of course it's not an indulgence. We can't buy it. It's a means of grace provided by God and is a work of God.

You claim that baptism doesn't absolve us of future sins...how can it not? Christ only had to die once for our forgiveness and that forgiveness is given to us in baptism. It's also given to us weekly in Holy Communion. It's the same forgiveness, there isn't a NEW forgiveness. So, the cross DID absolve us of all sins, past, present and future. It's God's job to get us to believe and trust in that forgiveness and He uses the means of grace to accomplish that task.

Baptism won't eliminate future sins as you've accurately stated since we do still live in these sinful bodies. We will still sin and when the Law has done its job of accusing us of our sin, God turns us back to Him with the Gospel of His forgiveness. Some look at that as a daily renewal in our baptism.

Why do we need to constantly hear and receive God's forgiveness through Word and Sacrament? Because the Law is always accusing us of our sins and Luther put it very well, but I'll probably botch it up...something to the effect of...the Law blinds us so much that we cannot see the Gospel and so we are in unbelief that we are forgiven and need to have it over and over again.

It's the same forgiveness...and yes, all our sins were forgiven at the cross and by grace through faith, God uses the means of grace, Word and Sacrament to get us to believe and trust in that.

[LilLamb219]

Mortanius, I'd like to ask you that if you died without having prayed for forgiveness of sins first (you know, after committing more sins since your last prayer), would you still be forgiven and go to heaven? Why or why not?

[LilLamb219]

So how does the justification through the word and justification through baptism differ? And could you expand upon the baptismal aspect please?

God uses Word and Sacrament to give us faith. Objectively, all peoples are justified because of the cross. But we are born sinful, children of wrath and enemies of God (we are born unbelievers) and so, God uses means to give us the Good News that we are justified. He gives us the gift of faith through these means so that we believe and at that point, it's called subjective justification. Baptism can be considered a visible application of God's Word since it is Word and Water.

[LilLamb219]

Faith Lutheran Church has a page of Luther's Writings and the Sacrament of Baptism: http://www.faithlitchfield.com/resources/luther/archives/2003/12/sacrament_of_baptism_part_three.php

Here are some copy and pastes, not enough to violate copyright though.

He pledges himself not to impute to you the sins which remain in your nature after baptism, neither to take them into account nor to condemn you because of them.

There is a fine sentence of St. Augustine which says, "Sin is altogether forgiven in baptism; not in such a manner that it is no longer present, but in such a manner that it is not imputed." It is as if he were to say, "Sin remains in our flesh even until death and works without ceasing. But so long as we do not give our consent to it or desire to remain in it, sin is so overruled by our baptism that it does not condemn us and is not harmful to us. Rather it is daily being more and more destroyed in us until our death."

Throughout this writing of Luther he tells us to remember our baptism and to look to our baptism.

[Edial]

Ed we've been through this "once saved, allways saved" and I'd like to know how you can equate what you're sayin with this saying in 2 Peter? This definitely shows that possibility not to be true.



2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."


Did you read the whole text?

2PE 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
2PE 2:13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2PE 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

1. The whole text presents that these are not believers at all, but the wicked.

2. V.22 shows that they know the way of righteousness, not THE righteousness.
The way of, means about righteousness, like in a Sunday School.

3. When a dog returns to his vomit (v.22) it is indicative that he eats his vomit with no disgust. That further proves that these were non-believers.

Radidio, what I stated in my post was concerning justification. That is impossible to lose.

Salvation process however, that is prior to justification is possible to lose.
Yet it is impossible to be lost after the justification.
God will complete that what he started.

You could probably give me all types of verses and I have probably studied them all more than once.

There is not one verse in the Scriptures that states that salvation can be lost after Holy Spirit entered the person and sealed him.

Yet there are many Scriptures that state that salvation is impossible to lose after the justification.

Thanks,
Ed

[C.F.W. Walther]

1. The whole text presents that these are not believers at all, but the wicked.


Actually that is not who Peter is talking about. He is talking about people that are Christian and teaching false doctrine for there own greed (like some telvangelists :) ). These false teachers decided to teach under false pretences for greed. In V. 20 makes clear that they were once orthodox Christians who had turned from the pollutions (Gk. miasmata) of the world through the full knowledge (Gk. epignosis) of Christ. But now, though they kept on "going on" about knowledge it was only head-knowledge for they had been misled by the "way of Balaam" (i.e. greed), and a false view of liberty, and had fallen again into immorality, even becoming teachers of a sinful lifestyle, so the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. This phrase seems to refer to Jesus' words in Matthew. 12 43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.".

So you can see that these are previous Christians that Peter is talking about and that they can loose there justification/sanctification/salvation when you were saying that they could not.



In verse 20 the words way of righteousness and holy commandment stress the ethical content of the knowledge these false teachers had. They knew what was right and holy but they deliberately chose to keep on doing what was wrong and defiling.



Ed I know you have read extensively and I respect you knowledge but as you said you can't take things out of context. You forgot the whole first 8 verses of that chapter.




:scratch:

[Edial]

Actually that is not who Peter is talking about. He is talking about people that are Christian and teaching false doctrine for there own greed (like some telvangelists :) ). These false teachers decided to teach under false pretences for greed. In V. 20 makes clear that they were once orthodox Christians who had turned from the pollutions (Gk. miasmata) of the world through the full knowledge (Gk. epignosis) of Christ. But now, though they kept on "going on" about knowledge it was only head-knowledge for they had been misled by the "way of Balaam" (i.e. greed), and a false view of liberty, and had fallen again into immorality, even becoming teachers of a sinful lifestyle, so the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. This phrase seems to refer to Jesus' words in Matthew. 12 43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.".

So you can see that these are previous Christians that Peter is talking about and that they can loose there justification/sanctification/salvation when you were saying that they could not.



In verse 20 the words way of righteousness and holy commandment stress the ethical content of the knowledge these false teachers had. They knew what was right and holy but they deliberately chose to keep on doing what was wrong and defiling.



Ed I know you have read extensively and I respect you knowledge but as you said you can't take things out of context. You forgot the whole first 8 verses of that chapter.


V.20 is talking that although they knew the Lord they did not retain it, to that effect.

Knowing him is clarified in v.22 where it presented that they knew the way to righteousness, not righteousness itself.

(It would really have helped if you would have appended this to my post or quoted my entire post for cross-references).

But regardless of what the context of "know" is.

Same Greek word is used here.

RO 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
RO 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

The wicked knew God in v.28 of Romans, yet did not retain the knowledge (same Greek word).
Knowing God cannot necessarily mean knowing him unto salvation.
Otherwise the entire world was saved and then lost salvation.:)

Knowing means exactly what it means and as is clarified in v.22 of Peter, "knowing the way of righteousness", not necessarily "the righteousness" in the context of a salvific knowledge.

One knows about God, yet not God.

Know can indeed have a salvific meaning. True.
But one cannot prove that from the Peter's text, due to the Romans 1 text.

And concerning a cross-reference to a spirit leaving the body then coming back to it and seeing that it is cleaned up and bringing 7 more evil spirits with him
... an evil spirit leaving a body does not mean it is leaving due to Holy Spirit's coming in. Exhorcism was performed in the name of Jesus all the time including non-believers in the Acts. Evil spirit left, went through arid places then came back and saw that the house is unoccupied (no Holy Spirit in him) and clean.
So, he came back with his friends, and the person is in a bigger problem than he started off with.

As I am saying,
salvation is a process that starts off from baptism and ends at death.
During that time, there is an event of justification.
Once this happens, Holy Spirit comes in a person and never leaves him.

That is very, very solid in the Scriptures.

We just needs to separate carefully, very carefully what salvation is, when it is synonymous with justification and when it is not.

Once we separate these things, the Bible will make a much clearer sense on this highly argumentative topic.

Thanks,
Ed

[C.F.W. Walther]

Well then will you also say that you can't loss salvation/justification according to these scriptures too??

Ed there in NO mention of your knosis here but just plain solid facts.

You have obviously ignored these and other references to loosing God's salvation for us

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
6Now these things occurred as examples[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians.%2010:1-12&version=31#fen-NIV-28558a)] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians.%2010:1-12&version=31#fen-NIV-28559b)] 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. 11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.





:scratch:

[MORTANIUS]

Mortanius, I'd like to ask you that if you died without having prayed for forgiveness of sins first (you know, after committing more sins since your last prayer), would you still be forgiven and go to heaven? Why or why not?

Having been Baptised, and hypothetically if I should lead a life of sin (thieving, murdering, adultry etc.) and passing into the next life, I don't believe I would be forgiven and go to Heaven just on the grounds of being Baptised.

We don't have Confessionals like the Roman Catholics do because it is God who forgives us our sins. On this ground, I must say that as we Lutherans understand it is not a Priest that absolves us of sin, we are still required to pray for forgiveness directly to Jesus Christ who is the intercessor for us all before His Father.

My Roman Catholic friends and a few Orthodox ones as well retain such requirements of forgiveness not having in mind salvation by the Grace of God, and yet we so often as Lutherans forget that we are still required to pray for forgiveness directly to the Lord for our transgressions against Gods Laws and even other people. Being required to do so is not an option simply because we are justified by the Grace of God. Such Grace does not befall the unrepenting sinner. What is Holy does not remain with a person who habitually sins against our Lord Jesus Christ.

I thank you all for giving me feed back and showing some patience with me since I did not properly explain myself. I hope I'm understood, and if I should have misunderstood what we are to believe, please correct me.

We are all Lutheran Christians here, and although we may not all be of a more conservative branch, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and so I hope I did not pass myself off as confrontational - this was not my intent.

May the Lord Bless and Keep you. :thumbsup:

[Edial]

Well then will you also say that you can't loss salvation/justification according to these scriptures too??

Ed there in NO mention of your knosis here but just plain solid facts.

You have obviously ignored these and other references to loosing God's salvation for us
Why do you say I ignored these?

I did not see them presented. Were they presented?

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
6Now these things occurred as examples[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians.%2010:1-12&version=31#fen-NIV-28558a)] to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry." 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. 11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Now where do you see that the Israelites were saved?
Salvation came in the NT in the context of Holy Spirit indwelling one and not leaving him. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you are not saying that they were saved, are you saying that we are to be careful so that we do not do such things?
OK.
But where do you see that we will lose salvation?
The ones that did not look at the snake (v.9) are not justified yet. These people are us, the Church. Yet in the church some are saved (justified) and some are still in the process of getting saved.
Once they start looking at the snake (v.9) - that is proof of salvation (or justification) which is by faith.
There are many among us who are not justified yet.
But they will be, they will be.

That is why we must carefully lead them towards salvation, (not theology, since many believe in that too), but Jesus.

(When I say that many are not justified, I clearly do not mean anyone here. :))

Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Look at the full text -
[B]HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

HEB 6:7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Vv. 7,8 present 2 types of the land, fruitful and barren.

Vv. 1-3 is talking about the fruitful, primarily because of v.7 and of the words "go on to maturity".

Vv. 4-6 (text you presented) about the barren land. Non-believers.

The tasting and other elements that are described in it, is just what it means, tasting, trying and so forth, not a state of justification.


(You duplicated the next text.

I think I know what you mean, but repost it if you want).

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

Mortanius, yes, we are to seek forgiveness when we sin. The Gospel is what keeps changing us into the conformity of what God wishes. We turn away, He turns us back.

But even when we ask for forgiveness, it's still the SAME forgiveness won at the cross and it is given to us over and over again. That doesn't negate baptism at all, nor does it say we don't receive enough of God's forgiveness at baptism. In our baptisms we receive the forgiveness won at the cross; the FULL forgiveness. Unless you think that the cross didn't cover our future sins? But it did and so in our baptisms, we receive the fullness of that forgiveness and are covered in Christ's righteousness. It's no wonder that Luther kept directing people to look to their baptisms when they needed assurance!

But when we get too smug, there's always the law there to accuse, huh? ;) The Law accuses, we tend to disbelieve and so God is there with the Gospel once again to tell us that we are forgiven. It's the forgiveness from the cross, it's the forgiveness He gives to us at baptism, and He just keeps giving and giving and giving.

[MORTANIUS]

Lilamb, thank you. I don't know why but I thought you were stating that Baptism is all we need. I totally misunderstood you. Sorry :doh:

[LilLamb219]

Yikes, no wonder :)

[Jim47]

Edial


HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Ed



Hi Ed

I think verse 4 above is the whole source of our disagreement and confusion. If you look more closely, you can see that there people of faith, just as Radidio pointed out, but they threw it away just as Jesus points out in His parable.

Does this make sence Ed? :)

Mt 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

[C.F.W. Walther]

Yes I duplicated Hebrews 6 under Hebrews 10. Here's Hebrews 10 and another solid fact of loss of salvation.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2010&version=31#fen-NIV-30148d)] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2010&version=31#fen-NIV-30148e)] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I don't know know how much more plain the scriptures can make it ED. There are no little nuances or inferances involved in scripture. It's pretty straight forward. Don't make it complicated.

[LutherNut]

I didn't realize I was being placed into some sort of explanatory competition when afterall, all I said was that Baptism isn't a Pass-card to absolute forgiveness if we continue to sin.

I'm not sure why people are confused with what I have typed?

Based on what lilamb has stated, Baptism appears to be (at least to a few you on here) a form of indulgence. The reason I say this is because Baptism does not eliminate or absolve us of future sins we commit.

Our Baptismal whiteness is blemished with sins we commit unless we continue to pray to God for forgiveness. Minus our responsibility to pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, we can't rely on the statement that Baptism absolves us absolutely since we are likely to sin on a daily basis in some regards.

Baptism is but one sacrament of Lutheran/Christian belief. Praying for forgiveness is also required. This is why I'm confused why there is any misunderstanding of what I posted here.

As far as I am aware, I have been brought up and educated within a Lutheran community which has never stated that Baptism absolves sins of the future without Praying for forgiveness. Am I wrong?

Each time we sin and seek God's forgiveness, that forgiveness is tied to our Baptism. During the Divine Service when the pastor absolves, it is done "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," the very words, the very name into which we were Baptized. The water and the word are a one time event, but at the same time, a lifelong process of forgiveness and absolution that we as penitent sinners return to.

[RayJGentry]

Each time we sin and seek God's forgiveness, that forgiveness is tied to our Baptism. During the Divine Service when the pastor absolves, it is done "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," the very words, the very name into which we were Baptized. The water and the word are a one time event, but at the same time, a lifelong process of forgiveness and absolution that we as penitent sinners return to.

AMEN. thank you. well posted.

[Edial]

Hi Ed

I think verse 4 above is the whole source of our disagreement and confusion. If you look more closely, you can see that there people of faith, just as Radidio pointed out, but they threw it away just as Jesus points out in His parable.

Does this make sence Ed? :)
Absolutely correct.
They threw it away.
They were not justified, not saved yet in the context of being justified in the context that it can no longer be lost.

We know that from verses 7,8 (or 6,7, forgot) concerning them being an unfruitful or a barren land as compared to the first group of people, the fruitful land.

Justification is a moment that comes in a life of a Christian after which salvation cannot be lost.

Bible speaks of a Church that consists of believers who are in the process of being drawn towards salvation and of the justified ones that cannot lose salvation.

Salvation and justification are often synonymous, but not in all cases.
Below are these cases of separation.

The Lutherans speak of a p[rocess of salvation and seldom of a point of justification during that process.

The Baptists speak of point of justification and seldom of a process of salvation.

Each one is correct and they know it. And that is why they fight so vigorously.

However, each one is describing one aspect of salvation and overlooking the entire topic of salvation that is presented as a lifetime process and a point of justifiication within it.

That is how we see that some can lose salvation and some cannot.

The point of justification by faith is that peg in the life of a Christian, prior to which salvation can be lost and after which it cannot.



Mt 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
Of course. Same thing.

Seeds fell - that is not justification yet, but a beginning process of salvation.
V.19 shows Satan snatching that salvation away prior to a person understanding.
Once a person understands, Satan can no longer snatch that seed.

Check out other accounts of this in other gospels.
You'll see that elsewhere it is presented that Satan can snatch that seed prior to one believing that message. Receiving it.

Salvation is a wonderful process that Satan wants to spoil and interrupt, as he is doing.
Yet once justification comes - Satan is out of picture. Salvation cannot be lost.

Try to look at it this way at the Bible, you'll be surprised how all these "pro" and "against" verses would just "fit" together. :)

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

Yes I duplicated Hebrews 6 under Hebrews 10. Here's Hebrews 10 and another solid fact of loss of salvation.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2010&version=31#fen-NIV-30148d)] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2010&version=31#fen-NIV-30148e)] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I don't know know how much more plain the scriptures can make it ED. There are no little nuances or inferances involved in scripture. It's pretty straight forward. Don't make it complicated.
It is not complicated at all.

Check out my response to Jim and you'll see that we are intermixing salvation and justification as synonyms in all cases.
It is not so.

Hebrews 10 text.

Here it indeed is addressed towards the justified believers.
And it states what? that they will see the fire.

And we ALL wil see fire in the afterlife.

Surprised? Should not be. Lutherans and Baptist are simply noy "talking" about these things.

Purgatory? Not at all. :)

But we will go through fire and our works will somehow follow them and will be tested.
Whatever survives, good.
Whatever burns up, no rewards.
We will be saved, but only as the ones escaping the flames.

1CO 3:12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

A process? We're either saved or not, there isn't an in between.

[Jim47]

Absolutely correct.
They threw it away.
They were not justified, not saved yet in the context of being justified in the context that it can no longer be lost.

We know that from verses 7,8 (or 6,7, forgot) concerning them being an unfruitful or a barren land as compared to the first group of people, the fruitful land.

Justification is a moment that comes in a life of a Christian after which salvation cannot be lost.

Bible speaks of a Church that consists of believers who are in the process of being drawn towards salvation and of the justified ones that cannot lose salvation.

Salvation and justification are often synonymous, but not in all cases.
Below are these cases of separation.

The Lutherans speak of a p[rocess of salvation and seldom of a point of justification during that process.

The Baptists speak of point of justification and seldom of a process of salvation.

Each one is correct and they know it. And that is why they fight so vigorously.

However, each one is describing one aspect of salvation and overlooking the entire topic of salvation that is presented as a lifetime process and a point of justifiication within it.

That is how we see that some can lose salvation and some cannot.

The point of justification by faith is that peg in the life of a Christian, prior to which salvation can be lost and after which it cannot.




Of course. Same thing.

Seeds fell - that is not justification yet, but a beginning process of salvation.
V.19 shows Satan snatching that salvation away prior to a person understanding.
Once a person understands, Satan can no longer snatch that seed.

Check out other accounts of this in other gospels.
You'll see that elsewhere it is presented that Satan can snatch that seed prior to one believing that message. Receiving it.

Salvation is a wonderful process that Satan wants to spoil and interrupt, as he is doing.
Yet once justification comes - Satan is out of picture. Salvation cannot be lost.

Try to look at it this way at the Bible, you'll be surprised how all these "pro" and "against" verses would just "fit" together. :)

Thanks,
Ed


HI Ed :wave:

Lil Lamb already addressed this, but I will expand on it. We were all justified when Christ died for our sins. Our sanctification is the on going work of The Holy Spirit, that is for those who have faith, those who do not have faith are not sanctified. "But", as the bible teaches, even a little bit of faith saves. ( will not snuff out a smoldering wick) If this were not true, then how much faith would be needed to be saved? At what point could we have the blessed comfort of knowing that Jesus has paid for our sins? Who would be worthy? For we have all sinned and fallen short of God's goal. But, through Christ Jesus we are justified, and if we believe in Jesus as our Savior we are forgiven.

The whole point of this is, that what you believe is wrong. The people in the verses I posted were believers, but just as Jesus parable states, they threw away the gift they were given and sought after worldly pleasures.

We who believe, may still have worldly lusts, as we are still sinners, but we also know that the precious gift that Jesus gave us should never be thrown away. This is also called the unforgivable sin which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. (Sorry but I don't have my bible handy)

Does this help Ed? :)

Please tell me YES! As I am running out of explainations. :D

[Edial]

HI Ed :wave:

Lil Lamb already addressed this, but I will expand on it. We were all justified when Christ died for our sins. Our sanctification is the on going work of The Holy Spirit, that is for those who have faith, those who do not have faith are not sanctified. "But", as the bible teaches, even a little bit of faith saves. ( will not snuff out a smoldering wick) If this were not true, then how much faith would be needed to be saved? At what point could we have the blessed comfort of knowing that Jesus has paid for our sins? Who would be worthy? For we have all sinned and fallen short of God's goal. But, through Christ Jesus we are justified, and if we believe in Jesus as our Savior we are forgiven.

The whole point of this is, that what you believe is wrong. The people in the verses I posted were believers, but just as Jesus parable states, they threw away the gift they were given and sought after worldly pleasures.

We who believe, may still have worldly lusts, as we are still sinners, but we also know that the precious gift that Jesus gave us should never be thrown away. This is also called the unforgivable sin which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. (Sorry but I don't have my bible handy)

Does this help Ed? :)

Please tell me YES! As I am running out of explainations. :D

YES. :D :) in the context that you are presenting this.

I am presenting this in another context that involves BOTH trains of thought, one is that one can lose salvation and the one that he cannot.

I take a personal (or subjective) justification and apply it as a point in time event in one's life.

Then, I take salvation as a lifetime process.

(Both are very much valid and solid Biblical models. These are new, unusual, agreed, yet they are accurate).

This methodology eliminates disagreement between many believers concerning salvation and a loss of one.

Both parties grudgingly agree that another has some verses that appear to support either OSAS (Once saved always saved) or OSNAS (Once saved Not always saved).

I am presenting a different view OJAS (Once justified Always Saved) which dissolves the disgareement between OSAS and OSNAS.

And that justification element is that personal justification in the eyes of God that is by faith, like in Abraham.

I believe that is the key to resolving MUCH of In-Fighting.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Jim47]

YES. :D :) in the context that you are presenting this.

I am presenting this in another context that involves BOTH trains of thought, one is that one can lose salvation and the one that he cannot.

I take a personal (or subjective) justification and apply it as a point in time event in one's life.

Then, I take salvation as a lifetime process.

(Both are very much valid and solid Biblical models. These are new, unusual, agreed, yet they are accurate).

This methodology eliminates disagreement between many believers concerning salvation and a loss of one.

Both parties grudgingly agree that another has some verses that appear to support either OSAS (Once saved always saved) or OSNAS (Once saved Not always saved).

I am presenting a different view OJAS (Once justified Always Saved) which dissolves the disgareement between OSAS and OSNAS.

And that justification element is that personal justification in the eyes of God that is by faith, like in Abraham.

I believe that is the key to resolving MUCH of In-Fighting.

Thanks, :)
Ed


Sounds like we are getting somewhere Ed! :thumbsup:

BTW, did you get that book on justification?

[Edial]

A process? We're either saved or not, there isn't an in between.
LilLamb219, it is very hard, very hard to respond to your posts when you snap an answer without even quoting that what I took effort to explain.
It is in it.

Salvation is synonymous with justification, but not ALL the time.

When God starts the process of drawing a person towards him, it is salvation (or a beginning stage of it, or whatever stage of it, a process).
See sower and the seeds.

During that period of saving person may lose salvation, It is a very, very sensitive time in a life of a Christian.
Then, when a person is ready he confesses Jesus as the Christ and receives him by faith.
Just like Abraham did.

Receiving him of course must be genuine and not based on peer-pressure, intimidation and so forth.
He is Justified personally by faith. Or like some said, subjectively, not objectively, like the whole world.

After that point in time the Bible stresses that Holy Spirit indwell the person and cannot leave him.
It further stresses that the Seed of God is working in him.
Also, it presents that resistance to God is no longer possible, since God in IN him already. Resistance is only possible when God is OUTSIDE of him.
It also stresses that one is a new creation and the OLD IS GONE, the new has come. He does not wish to part with Christ.

Once the verses are carefully arranged and separated and placed in their niches with Justification as being the reference point - all verses suddenly fit.

Thanks,
Ed