dividing asunder of soul and spirit

[visionary]

Ever wonder why the Word of God would do that? hebrews 4:12

[plum]

wow it's amazing you bring this up. i just happened upon a short part of a sermon on the radio on the way to work... and this is the exact verse he quoted and spoke about.

maybe G-d wants me to meditate on this more.

[Tishri1]

excellent thread *tish meditates on this as she gets ready for bed

thanks Vis for something great to think on as I fall asleep tonite:clap:

[Sephania]

4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and * * spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. KJV

* =

not only ... but also
both ... and
as ... so4:12 See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword - it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart. CJV


CJV defines it better of the sharpness of the sword, it is so sharp it can find that fine line between the joint and marrow, and the soul and spirit.

[visionary]

maybe we should define soul and spirit so that we can understand better how they could be separated.

Could the definition be as simple as the soul stays with the body at death while the spirit goes back to God.

[Bon]

maybe we should define soul and spirit so that we can understand better how they could be separated.

Could the definition be as simple as the soul stays with the body at death while the spirit goes back to God.

Ah Visionary!....that was just what I was thinking.

What is the soul and what is the spirit in it's Biblical context?
Not in its human interpretation.

I believe it is refering to the physical and spiritual parts of man.

I came across this recently:________________________________
"And thou shall love the LORD your God with all your HEART, and with all your soul, and with all your MIGHT." Deuteronomy 6:5

Love in a relationship with the Lord is experienced in our HEART: a Hebrew euphemism for one’s spiritual body, our soul, and our
STRENGTH: a Hebrew euphemism for one’s physical body.
(does anyone know this for a fact?)

SOUL = Heb. Nephesh = being, creature. (a living being)
________________________________________________________

Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature (nephesh:soul).

Ecclesiastes 12:7and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

The soul is the man/creature/body (physical) the spirit is the breath from YHWH (spiritual)


1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you have purified your souls (body/being) in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the Word of God which lives and abides forever.

I hope that this is not too confusing, my mind is a little all over the place at the moment.

Bon

[visionary]

In all my studies, I have come to the same conclusion as you, Bon regarding the differences between the spirit and soul.

Now here is where it gets interesting...

Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit. can the spirit be torn asunder/breached/ divided/ separated into pieces? because.. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. we know and understand that we have a physical body that we see and operate through. What this thread is about is understanding our spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.You see there are several places where the experience of John and another unmentioned man were discribed in the spirit, totally separated from a physical body experience. 2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.and Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.Is this the next level of worshipping? Have we physically, mentally, and emotionally been communication with the Lord but yet have not graduated to worshipping him as the Lord predicts? John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[Sephania]

One thing I believe is that the worship must be on both levels. The physical for the world to see the light who lives inside us, by what we say, do, react, dress, eat, etc. But the Spiritual is the same, it hears, eats, sees, feels, but in the spirit body, and all this for the L-RD'
s eyes alone.

[visionary]

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.has anyone experienced this?

[Bon]

has anyone experienced this?

Funny you should mention that......It has been happening for me lately.

Things are pretty messed up in my life at the moment...and lately I just cant seem to find the right words for prayer....I try and nothing seems to come out that really reflects my pain....Then I find I have just fallen to my knees and wept....and without words I feel my spirit is asking for those things I need from Him.


:bow:

Bon

[visionary]

It is a letting go of the spirit and allowing God to come and wrought in us what we truly need. Bon, I can totally relate... some prayers are beyond the mind and soul of our being, for they can not be expressed with our limited language, and our spirit crys out for us.

[CovenantRay]

Funny you should mention that......It has been happening for me lately.

Things are pretty messed up in my life at the moment...and lately I just cant seem to find the right words for prayer....I try and nothing seems to come out that really reflects my pain....Then I find I have just fallen to my knees and wept....and without words I feel my spirit is asking for those things I need from Him.


:bow:

Bon

Dear Achoti Bon:

This is an excellent example of what has been going on with me. Sometimes in prayer there are not the words in my conscious mind to pray, yet the spirit knows and utters them -- turning them over to Him as we should.

Todah and Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

[visionary]

Did the soul and spirit needed to be divided? Is the soul the place that houses the spirit? Is that why piercing the soul effects the spirit?

[Bon]

Did the soul and spirit needed to be divided? Is the soul the place that houses the spirit? Is that why piercing the soul effects the spirit?


Isnt it that the Word of God pierces what DIVIDES soul and spirit
(Flesh and Spirit.) Sin from righteousness.????

Bon

[Tishri1]

Psalm 42:1 - 43:1 NAS Psalm 42:1 For the choir director. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for Thee, O God. 2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God? 3 My tears have been my food day and night, While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?" 4 These things I remember, and I pour out my soul within me. For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God, With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival. 5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him For the help of His presence. 6 O my God, my soul is in despair within me; Therefore I remember Thee from the land of the Jordan, And the peaks of Hermon, from Mount Mizar. 7 Deep calls to deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls; All Thy breakers and Thy waves have rolled over me. 8 The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime; And His song will be with me in the night, A prayer to the God of my life. 9 I will say to God my rock, "Why hast Thou forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?" 10 As a shattering of my bones, my adversaries revile me, While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?" 11 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him, The help of my countenance, and my God. :prayer:

[Sephania]

has anyone experienced this? How are you interpreting this Vis, I always looked at it as the Ruach HaKodesh makes intercession , if we turn our will and body and soul over to trust in Him. I never looked at this as our spirit.

[MattyJames]

How are you interpreting this Vis, I always looked at it as the Ruach HaKodesh makes intercession , if we turn our will and body and soul over to trust in Him. I never looked at this as our spirit.

Same here. I think the verse is talking about the HS.

But I also can relate to what Bon and Vis are saying. Actually it happened to me last night, but in reverse. I couldn't express how thankful I was for the Goodness that HaShem has shown to me. All I could do was weep.I'm getting all teary eyed right now just thinking about it:blush: :bow: .Its not so bad in thoes times. Its when we weep out of hurt that is hard.

My prayers are with you Bon. I pray Hashem will heal your heart. I'm praying for the Kids to. :prayer:

MJ

[visionary]

How are you interpreting this Vis, I always looked at it as the Ruach HaKodesh makes intercession , if we turn our will and body and soul over to trust in Him. I never looked at this as our spirit.So how do you see 1 Thess 5:23's spirit.... the HS or "your whole spirit'"????

Give this some thought... maybe the severing of the spirit from the natural desires of our soul is for our salvation...maybe it has to sever the influence of the weakness of our flesh from the willingness of the spirit to submit to the Holy Spirit. If our spirit is strong, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and our soul's purpose is to house the spirit within our flesh, then the separation keeps the spirit pure in the body of our weakened flesh. Since our body follows the spirit, the sins of the flesh will lose their attraction as our spirit seeks to be obedient to the Holy Spirit leadings. It goes back to that verse about our spirit body. That is why we have to ask Yeshua to give us a right spirit. Psalms 51:10 Create in my a clean heart, O God;and renew a right spirit within me.

It reminds me of this verse...

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing that ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren...

[visionary]

Isnt it that the Word of God pierces what DIVIDES soul and spirit
(Flesh and Spirit.) Sin from righteousness.????

BonSo you have soul and flesh as pretty much the same thing... and you are equating flesh (sin) from spirit (righteousness.. am I understand this correctly?

[Bon]

So you have soul and flesh as pretty much the same thing... and you are equating flesh (sin) from spirit (righteousness.. am I understand this correctly?


Yes Vis....That is how I see it in the Word.
We are living souls....or beings. Part of our being is our intellect, emotions, etc.
This is the Flesh....and is sinful.
The spirit is our life (breath) given from God. That which gives life to our soul (body).
This is the spirit given from above, and is in union with God....
To live righteously, we put off the things of the flesh and focus on the things of the spirit.

So yes......Soul / Flesh / Sin
Spirit / Breath / Righteousness

IMHO of course.

Bon

[Bon]

Same here. I think the verse is talking about the HS.

But I also can relate to what Bon and Vis are saying. Actually it happened to me last night, but in reverse. I couldn't express how thankful I was for the Goodness that HaShem has shown to me. All I could do was weep.I'm getting all teary eyed right now just thinking about it:blush: :bow: .Its not so bad in thoes times. Its when we weep out of hurt that is hard.

My prayers are with you Bon. I pray Hashem will heal your heart. I'm praying for the Kids to. :prayer:

MJ


Thank you Matt. :wave:
I need all the prayers I can get right now.
They are greatly appreciated.

Bon

[visionary]

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Let me approach this subject from a different angle. We are the temple of God in whom God wishes to dwell. There is a spot deep within us that is the place where the Holy Spirit is enthroned. IT would be our most Holy Spot. Like the Temple there is a veil that keep the Holy from the Most Holy. We open up ourselves to allow God dwell within us. We minister with prayers at the altar of our hearts before Him. Through Yeshua the veil, our souls have been rent so that the truth of ourselves may lay bare before Him.Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:When we allow the separation of our flesh from our spirit, we are stronger in the spirit to do God's Will and the flesh will follow.Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For many we are wondering how to overcome, this may be the answer, for our focus changes from those things that are of the flesh to those things of the spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.It would also increase our sensitivity to spiritual matters if we were more in tune with the workings of the Holy Spirit within us. Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.Our eyes would see things in the spiritual rhelm and not what appears before our human eyes, and our ears would hear the Word of God come alive to speak to us regarding what our human eyes are witnesses and our understanding would change, from that which the human eyes see and ears hear to the way God sees and hears things. 2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

[Sephania]

So how do you see 1 Thess 5:23's spirit.... the HS or "your whole spirit'"????

Give this some thought... maybe the severing of the spirit from the natural desires of our soul is for our salvation...maybe it has to sever the influence of the weakness of our flesh from the willingness of the spirit to submit to the Holy Spirit. If our spirit is strong, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and our soul's purpose is to house the spirit within our flesh, then the separation keeps the spirit pure in the body of our weakened flesh. Since our body follows the spirit, the sins of the flesh will lose their attraction as our spirit seeks to be obedient to the Holy Spirit leadings. It goes back to that verse about our spirit body. That is why we have to ask Yeshua to give us a right spirit.

It reminds me of this verse...

I didn't look that up right away, I saved it for when I went to bed. Wrote down the scripture and used my newer franklin Bible I keep next to it, because my older and one I use daily was downstairs. This one that I have when you turn it one, remembers the last scritpure you read on there. Now I haven't used this for awhile because it has a huge lcd leak in it and is hard to read, but when I turned it on, guess where it opened up to?

1 Thess 5:22, which I read quickley without realizing where it was from, then quickly keyed in 1 Thess 5:23. After I read it I paged up to see the context and saw 22. It was late so I was a little confused so I keyed it in again. Same thing.

Abstain from ALL appearence of evil.

That verse is in the foremost of my mind.

So now what I am thinking about is how it relates to the next verse which you asked me to read.

One thing that stood out to me was that Sha'ul was praying for these people that their WHOLE spirit and soul and body are preserved blameless.
If we view that in light of verse 22, and it has to do with the second coming of Yeshua.......................

[visionary]

One thing that stood out to me was that Sha'ul was praying for these people that their WHOLE spirit and soul and body are preserved blameless. PRESERVED... key word which indicates itis something already obtained.

[Sephania]

By the baptism of the Ruach HaKodesh?

[visionary]

By the baptism of the Ruach HaKodesh?Amen... and tried by the fire seven times

[Sephania]

Seven times when?

[visionary]

Probably starting now with the conflict raging in Israel, and whether it will rage in your heart also.