A question about Messianic Judaism and the Trinity

[Davidnic]

I do not know a great deal about Messianic Judasim and I had a question. I would like to ask what Messianic Jews think about the Trinity. I was just wondering and don't want to debate, just to grow in understanding of each other. So I'll read the answers and ask if I don't understand something. I thank you, my brothers and sisters, for your answers in advance.

[Tishri1]

There are MJ's who do believe just as the Christians do, some who believe but see the Trinity as something more than the Christians do and some who dont believe in the Trinity as they think it is a pagan concept introducing three Gods....And it's funny but I just posted in a thread here a very good reason why all the fuss...Someone recently challenged the Pastors to do a better job teaching on the Trinity so that maybe some of the confusion will end...I tend to agree with that, we really have lost a grounded concept with all these many Teachers and Pastors out there just as confused as the sheep...:sigh:

IMO I believe in the concept of a Trinity (compound unity) Echad of God and can totally see God the Father, and MessiahYeshua the only Son of God , and the Holy Spirit of God, all in the begining, I dont see any of them as being created but existing there before ABBA even started His creation...Just my thoughts about that....:clap:

[Sephania]

When Yeshua was on the cross he said, Eli, Eli,

Eli is singular for G-d

Yet in the begining G-d created the heavens and earth

In this passage the word translated G-d is Elohim

'im' on the end of a word makes it plural.

[visionary]

God said ..."created in our (plural) image"
I have always been under the impression all of God was involved; mind, body, and soul, in the creative and redemptive parts. I really do not think we should venture to argue or surmise details that have never been revealed.

[Tishri1]

God said ..."created in our (plural) image"
I have always been under the impression all of God was involved; mind, body, and soul, in the creative and redemptive parts. I really do not think we should venture to argue or surmise details that have never been revealed.amen vis ...you the birthday girl!:amen:

[Davidnic]

I'm sorry if I raised a topic that may cause a great deal of debate. So far I get that there may be many different views on it; from close to the basic form in Christianity and others not at all. And sometimes people may disagree.

[Tishri1]

two Jews, three opinions;)

[christinepro]

When Yeshua was on the cross he said, Eli, Eli,

Eli is singular for G-d

Yet in the begining G-d created the heavens and earth

In this passage the word translated G-d is Elohim

'im' on the end of a word makes it plural.
You took the words right out of my mouth! This makes it so simple.

[Wags]

http://www.starcovenant.us/TheTrinity.html

Not saying I agree with everything, but they do make some interesting points.

[Davidnic]

Thank you all so much for answering my question. I think I understand the range of views and some of the basis for the logic behind each.

Again, thank you for the answers.

Peace and love be with you.

[Sephania]

Shalom! :wave:

[Andyman_1970]

Excerpt from: Theological Errors due to Seperation from Hebrew Roots

By: Dan Rodriguez


Many theological errors have come into the Church as a result of its separation from its orginal Hebrew roots. The separation and eventual divorce of the Church from the synagogue began as early as the death of the Apostle John. As early as the end of the first century there were great schisms and heresies taking root in the Church. By the beginning of the second century, the Church was set on a course that led to its paganization and eventual evolution into something completely different from the faith that was once and for all given to the saints. (Jude 3)

The historical facts are clear. The further westward the Church spread the more it was Hellenized. By the fourth century it had evolved into a grotesque disfiguration of the dynamic organism Jesus intended his followers to become.

Judaism had originally been the religion of Jesus and his first disciples. By the second and third centuries, the Church had done everything it could to separate from its Jewish heritage. Multifarious rules and regulations were put into effect to prohibit Christian contact with Jews. (See my previous articles on anti-Semitism.) Numerous other restrictions equated Judaism with paganism.

Deplorably, the Church's attitude toward the religion of Jesus and the apostles is exactly what caused it to dive headlong into all sorts of strange doctrines and perversions of truth. When believers in Jesus cut themselves off from Judaism, they literally stopped receiving the life-giving flow of God that had so infused them at the beginning. (See Paul's analogy in Romans 11.)

The Church, instead of realizing its debt to Judaism, cut itself off from the religion formed from the teachings of the Scriptures. Christianity became a religion that bound itself to another and began an affair with Hellenistic and pagan thought and philosophy. Christianity left out the Jewish element and became a religion that denied background and heritage.

In this study, we will look at the great difference between the theology of the Church today compared to the teaching and understanding of Jewish brethren. Judaism today holds the same basic tenets of faith that it held in the time of Jesus. When we look at the basic tenets of faith among Jews today we get a good idea of what were the major teachings circulating in Jesus' day almost two thousand years ago.

With these thoughts in mind, we will tackle only fourteen of the theological mistakes the Church has made and promulgated. Another fourteen could probably be added just as easily.


I. The foundational truth of the Bible is the monotheism it presents in opposition to the polytheism of heathen religions. This concept of one God is "the foundational truth" espoused by Judaism.

The Scripture teaches that God is one, in opposition to the doctrine of Trinity in Christianity. Trinitarianism was not accepted by the Church as dogma until the fourth century C.E. Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus or his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine, which adopted the Homoousias (sameness of essence) position. Over the next half-century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula and, by the end of the fourth century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. (Adapted from Enc. Brittanica, s.v., "Trinty.")

Monotheism is the God concept that separated the Jew or Hebrew from the pagan nations that surrounded him. In ancient times, the multiplicity of gods was the "in" thing. It was considered heretical to believe in one God, and especially one without an image. This idea of monotheism far surpassed the religious concepts of its day. It was a concept not created by man, it was the revelation of God Himself to man. Deuteronomy 6:4 became the foundational truth of Judaism--the Shema. It is the first thing the religious Jew teaches his child, and the last thing the religious Jew wants to say before he dies.

God has no counterpart. He is the all-powerful, omnipresent, omniscient God. His name is YHWH in the transliteration from Hebrew. It is not known how it was pronounced. What does this name mean? There are a few interpretations of this, but He said to Moses. "I am that I am." Literally this means, "I was, I am, and I will be." He is ALL in this sense that He is the only God there is, and He is all-powerful. All possibility of dualism is left out. Zoroastrian thought proclaimed the existence of two opposite gods in the universe; one good and the other evil. The one God concept excludes the polytheistic notions of a world where there are many gods.

What does Trinity really mean? In general, the interpretation is that God is one in substance, but three in "PERSON"; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then there is the school that teaches that there are really three, completely separate beings in the godhead. In all honesty, it is very difficult to call this latter theory anything but a modified polytheistic philosophy of God. The New Testament does not actually speak of tri-unity. The Spanish texts of the sixth century are the first to offer a clear-cut trinitarian formula in the so-called Comma Johaneum of I Jn. 5:7 ff.(TDNT,III:108). The word trias and trinitas, in this application to the Godhead, appears first in Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras in the second century, and in Tertullian in the third. (Schaff, History of the Church, III:6454)

Professor David Flusser has discussed another problematic text, Matthew 28:19. He said that all extant manuscripts of Matthew record that Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize all nations "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." But this trinitarian formula is missing from all the quotations of the passage in the writings of Eusebius composed before the council of Nicaea. The text before Nicaea reads, "Go forth and make all nations disciples in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." The texts Euseblus used from the library in Caesarea appear to have had this form. Other witnesses for this shorter form were found in a Jewish Christian source, and a Coptic text. (Judaism and the Origins of Christianity, pp. 380ff.)

By the fourth century there existed three main schools of thought concerning the nature of Christ and the nature of God. Homoousia was the doctrine of a similarity of essence in the godhead. Homoousia, taught the sameness of essence, while heteroousia believed in a difference of essence. Again, controversy raged for many years. In 381, after the council of Constantinople, Emperor Theodosius I published as law the homoousian position. In all the kingdom, every church was to be given up to bishops who ascribed to this doctrinal point of view. The public worship of those who did not ascribe to homoousianism was prohibited by law. (Schaff, History of the Church, III:618-698)

In a very enlightening scholarly work by Robert Grant of the University of Chicago, there's ample evidence of pagan influence in the Trinitarian concept of God.
"Numenius was the source for much of Plotinus' thought, according to ancient critics, but the Christian authors Clement and Origen knew him well.He evidently influenced both Neoplatonism and Christianity. In his thought, there is a combination of monotheism and polytheism, of the one and the many which is quite similar to what we find among Christians. Plato anticipated the Christian (Trinity) doctrine of God.... The doctrine of the trinty in unity is not a product of the earliest Christian period, and we do not find it carefully expressed before the end of the second century... This is to say that in beginning to develop the doctrine of the Trinity, Christians made use of methods already worked out among Platonists and Pythagoreans for explaining their own philosophical theology, in harmonious accord with pagan polytheism... As time went by, the logical implications of the faith were worked out on the basis of the leading philosophies of the time, often in ways remarkably similar to such workings out in other religions. The religious impulses and their expressions turn out to be much the same.... The upshot was that the development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity was, to say the least, not alien to philosophical or even rhetorical statements made by pagans about pagan gods" (Gods and the One God, Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1986, pp. 150-175).

In other words; trinitarianism has roots that go all the way back to pagan religions. As an example, we can speak, of the Phoenician triad of El, Ashtarte, and Baal. Gerhaid Herm said that the Phoenician pantheon could have been easily adopted by any good believer in the Holy Trinity. The concept of a triad of the gods was prominent in Tyre, Sidon, Arvad, Biblos, and Ugarit. (Die Phonizier: Das Purpurreich der Antike, Dusseldorf Vienna, 197.) We must understand that early Christian monotheism is confirmed rather than, shattered by the Christology of the New Testament, Monotheism is a firm part of the tradition and is established throughout the New Testament, beginning with Jesus' own declaration of the Shema In Mark 12:29-30 as being the first commandment of Scripture. (TDNI 111:101-102)
The question of the nature of God is still an issue in many quarters. The basic problem is a misunderstanding the nature of Christ. Yet, when Jesus spoke, he did not claim to be just the "Son of God." Once and again, he made the startling declaration that he was God. When he declared that he had come to seek and save those that are lost (Luke 19:10), he was alluding to Ezekiel 34, where it is God that is to seek and save the lost sheep. Again, this calls to mind Jesus' words in John 10:1-16, where he is the good shepherd that gives his life for the sheep. Listen to him as he states that he and the Father are one (John 10:30). "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). "The Word that was God became flesh and dwelt among us." (John 1:1,14). He was IMMANUEL, GOD WITH US. God was manifest in the flesh according to I Timothy 3:16.

Was this a problematic concept for people of a polytheistic background? How could Son also be Father? (Isaiah 9:6) It is understood only in its Hebrew context. The Pentecostal aberration known as "Oneness" theology is completely different from this. Oneness is the theology that believes that Jesus is God and God is Jesus; that ALL of God is Jesus.

Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshua. Today, the idea that the spoken language among Jews in Judea and Galilee was Hebrew is becoming more and more accepted. It is also being recognized that the original life story of Jesus was communicated in Hebrew. (See R. Blizzard and D. Bivin. Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus; D. Flusser, Jewish Sources in Early Christianity; R.L. Lindsey, The Gospel of Mark, and others.) The angel tells Joseph, "you shall, calls His name Yeshua for He will yoshia His people from their sins" (See Hebrew New Testament). The word Yeshua is a play on the word yoshia, (from yasha) which means SALVATION. So Yeshua means Savior or Liberator, the Salvation of God. So Jesus was Yeshuat Elohim!

Who was he? He was, for the believer, God in human flesh redeming or saving. Just as Ruach Elohim or El-Shaddai is God, each revealing a different spect of deity, so it is with Yeshuat Elohim. Yeshua was God, but he was not all of God there is. Ruach Elohim is all God, but not all of God there is. Ruach Elohim is the aspect of God's nature that reveals his power. God is all we have mentioned and much more. He is beyond the capacity of human reason to understand his greatness. We can only know him by his names and his activity among men. Yet, God is beyond human description, description or discernment. He is beyond our imagination. Still, in all His varied ways and manifestations, he is the one supreme God. Maimonides best expressed this by insisting that trying to comprehend God adequately was so hopeless that it was impossible to describe him in positive terms. Language could never convey what God was, only what he was not, and that any intelligent discussion about his nature could only contain negatives. The consensus of Jewish thought can be summarized in this: the fullness of God is impossible to know.

In the New Testament we have an emphasis on God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because of the unique features of the ministry and mission of Jesus. The one that was to come was to have a relationship with God as a father has with a son, and in some special way, he was to be the bearer of the spirit. In addition, we must remember that the Greek of the New Testament is at pains to express these Hebrew concepts in a language of pagans.

Throughout this entire explanation we have maintained the integreity of Biblical monotheism for the believer in Christ Jesus. The trinitarian or Pentecostal Oneness doctrines put sever limitations on the Biblical concept of God. God is more than a mere manifestation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is more than only Jesus. He is beyond anything we can ask or think, yet he is the ONLY God, and he can manifest himself however he chooses to do so.

[plum]

interesting read, andy.

i liked this part:
Yeshua was God, but he was not all of God there is. Ruach Elohim is all God, but not all of God there is.

[stone]

nice

[Wags]

Thanks for posting that Andyman

I liked the final line - God is more than a mere manifestation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is more than only Jesus. He is beyond anything we can ask or think, yet he is the ONLY God, and he can manifest himself however he chooses to do so.

[Andyman_1970]

No problem, I always enjoy sharing with you guys.........

[MattyJames]

To be honest I am undecided on the Trinity. There doesn't seem to be any known explaination that fits all examples. I will continue to search.

Thanks Andy...Informing read.

MJ

[MattyJames]

OK...I'll bite the bullet, even though it may get me in strife.

I know that there is a father and Son. Both ONE in WILL, but I'm not sure they are one in SPIRIT. Otherwise we have BOTH FATHER AND SON BEING CRUCIFIED. But we know they wern't because yeshua prayed to the father while on the Tree.

As for the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure that it is actually equal with the God head (ir Father and Son). It can be clearly known that the God head is Plural. IT can be clearly defined that the God head is made up of the Father and Son. But I can't be absolutly sure about the HS.

I do believe however that we are Subject/ Baptised UNDER the Father, Son and HS. That is spelled out very clear.

It must be realized that I do not count 1 John 5:7?? (I think) as a valid scripture as it was added in my translators.

I was shown a correlation between Ex 23:20 and Matt 12:31 by my Father and I think that the two verses have striking simerlarities.

If I am at liberty to say...as I am begining to see..."The kingdom of Heaven is like a King (Father), who has a Beloved Son (Yeshua), and a loyal General (HS) and a Loyal Priest (HS). The King is at war against a rebelous General (Satan) who has in his command one third of the Kings Army (Fallen angels/ demons). The King Sent out a decree, but the hand of his Son, who then passed it to the General (Notice Rev 1:1), who then read it in the ears of all the Soldiers."

and thats about as far as I have come. I am ABSOLUTLY open do being "picked apart" after all "Iron shapeneth Iron". I'm not saying that this is what I believe and thats it! But I am saying that I find it more in line with scripture, than "standard" Trinatairianism.

(Hope I haven't crossed any lines)

Matt James

[visionary]

God is a consuming fire. Have any of us watched fire shott flames, flicker, and dance? It is living, dinaminc, undefined energy and with many forms, yet the same. You can take a chunk of burning element and move it to another spot and start a new fire but it is still fire.

[plum]

i think what bothers me to some degree is the desire to "know" what the Trinity/triune/threeness of G-d is without any question. We so desire to take the mystery out of G-d's mysteries. We seem to have to know with our heads in order to experience with our hearts. I think this has some merit (as knowledge is important), but little. I also worry that we Messianics still focus too much on the doubts we have than the Truth we have. We look for the differences in ourselves and others while forgetting we are neighbors to them. And as for the Believing community... we are bound together with blood in Family, Body, purpose. forgetting that with our hearts and with our deeds causes strife, pride, bitterness, and stunted growth.

Let G-d be part known and part mystery. And may we all fully know one day of His fullness and infinite complexity and perfection.

[Andyman_1970]

We so desire to take the mystery out of G-d's mysteries. We seem to have to know with our heads in order to experience with our hearts.

Excellent...............:amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:

I would personally run away from any pastor or sermon that claims to be able to fully explain the Trinity......IMO it is a concept that cannot be fully understood by humans.

[Wags]

Excellent...............:amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:

I would personally run away from any pastor or sermon that claims to be able to fully explain the Trinity......IMO it is a concept that cannot be fully understood by humans.


I agree

[visionary]

And then there is this verse to add to the debate...Can one mind of God know something the other is not privy to? Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

[winsome]

Hi :wave:

First time I have wandered into this part of the forums. Interesting thread.

I must look around some more.

[plum]

welcome! :wave:

[Sephania]

God is a consuming fire. Have any of us watched fire shoot flames, flicker, and dance? It is living, dinaminc, undefined energy and with many forms, yet the same. You can take a chunk of burning element and move it to another spot and start a new fire but it is still fire.

I love watching the Shabbat candles, as we sing the See the Shabbat Candles song. I love looking into the flame, seeing how it is soft looking, yet you know it's strength, it is bright, but fleeting,ever changing, yet staying the same. It gives warmth and comfort but if you get to close you will get burned and closer still consumed. But it is 'alive' in a way that can't be compared to any other creation.

Telling us Yeshua , is the Light of the World..............

:bow:

[MattyJames]

And then there is this verse to add to the debate...Can one mind of God know something the other is not privy to?

Thats Exactly my point Vis...thanks.

That verse just TOTALLY contradicts standard theory. :doh:

As for the mystery of God, well I can understand your point Eirene, but isn't that the task that we have?? To seek out knoweldge and wisdom?? Well one of our tasks anyhows. As for me, the gift of knowledge is a Gift of God, and although I already expreiance with my heart, I would also like to know with my head.

IMHO Its like being in love with someone. The heart knowledge is very important, but the head knowledge is just as important. As I see it, they both grow one with the other.

MJ

[plum]

of course i agree with you, Matty. The fact that G-d's revelation about Himself is a Book speaks to the fact that our minds and our hearts are united.
I simply have my critiques of some points of view :) as do we all.

[MattyJames]

of course i agree with you, Matty. The fact that G-d's revelation about Himself is a Book speaks to the fact that our minds and our hearts are united.
I simply have my critiques of some points of view :) as do we all.

haha yes please critizise, but not without scripture. In this way we can continue to learn at the feet of the Torah and Tanach (I think I spelt that wrong) whilest sharpening the countenence of one another.

as we all do :thumbsup: ....very true my friend.

[Tishri1]

God is a consuming fire. Have any of us watched fire shott flames, flicker, and dance? It is living, dinaminc, undefined energy and with many forms, yet the same. You can take a chunk of burning element and move it to another spot and start a new fire but it is still fire.Vis that was great, we have wildfires every summer and they will start fires to help direct the larger out of control fires which always seems strange to do but it works (fighting fire with fire):clap:, the substance is the same yet each one is unique and set for a unique purpose!

[Tishri1]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eirene again.:amen:i think what bothers me to some degree is the desire to "know" what the Trinity/triune/threeness of G-d is without any question. We so desire to take the mystery out of G-d's mysteries. We seem to have to know with our heads in order to experience with our hearts. I think this has some merit (as knowledge is important), but little. I also worry that we Messianics still focus too much on the doubts we have than the Truth we have. We look for the differences in ourselves and others while forgetting we are neighbors to them. And as for the Believing community... we are bound together with blood in Family, Body, purpose. forgetting that with our hearts and with our deeds causes strife, pride, bitterness, and stunted growth.

Let G-d be part known and part mystery. And may we all fully know one day of His fullness and infinite complexity and perfection.

[Andyman_1970]

As for the mystery of God, well I can understand your point Eirene, but isn't that the task that we have?? To seek out knoweldge and wisdom?? Well one of our tasks anyhows.

As for me, the gift of knowledge is a Gift of God, and although I already expreiance with my heart, I would also like to know with my head.



(please know I'm not picking on your brother) this desire to intellectually understand things like the Trinity IMO stem from the Greek/Western culture we were raised and educated in. The culture and method of thinking that gave us the Scriptures and our Messiah embrace the mystery of God as being the truth of God...........the mystery is the truth.

[Sephania]

A covenant made between two, not of this earth:


B'resheet 15:17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.


15:18 In the same day the L-RD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


Burning lamp= torch

lapiyd (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03940&version=kjv) = torch

Variously translated as - lamp 7, firebrand 2, torch 2, brand 1, lightning 1, burning 1lamp 7, firebrand 2, torch 2, brand 1, lightning 1, burning 1------ in KJV




Yeshua making his presence known at Mt Sinai


Ex20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Salvation like a burning torch - Yeshua the true Shalom and Salvation of Yerushalyim.



Isaiah 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.


Yeshua visits Daniel:


Daniel 10

1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long:and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision. 2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled. 4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel; 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

[MattyJames]

(please know I'm not picking on your brother) this desire to intellectually understand things like the Trinity IMO stem from the Greek/Western culture we were raised and educated in. The culture and method of thinking that gave us the Scriptures and our Messiah embrace the mystery of God as being the truth of God...........the mystery is the truth.

Thanks Andyman...but I thoroughly disagree :D.

As I see it...then why bother searching out the scriptures at all. The trinity is hard to be understood, but impossible?? You may be right. But then again, you may not be. Therefor I will search, even if it is vanity, because my searching brings me even more close to the reality of what is, and my heart and head can both agree the more.

Never the less, thanks for your reply, I do appreciate it.

MJ