Putting our God down - what do we do?

[hadara]

Shalom,

I believe that God is coming back for a glorious church. I also believe that he will seperate the wheat from the tares, and we can see this happening among all believers, Christians and Messianics (we are all one.)


The most blasphemous lie that is going on right now is the lie that Yeshua was not God in the flesh. They say He was just a mere man that had god-like powers, or something to that effect. What do we do when we see these lies in the baby Messianic movement? It is only approximately 30 years old, but already the lies have crept in. How do we keep it from spreading like gangrene? How do we know when there are wolves among us? Some people keep their beliefs quiet, and fool a great many people. We eat and have fellowship with the wolves and are none the wiser of the antiChrist spirit spreading among us.

Another tragedy among us happens when people we love get turned away from Yeshua to some other religion or philosophy. Or, they turn away from Yeshua and go back to Judaism of some sort. I have found that as soon as they start questioning that Yeshua is God, it is the first step in apostacy. Some seem to come back, but some just keep falling away until they say these horrible words: "I no longer believe Yeshua is God."


It seems one of the reasons that Messianics fall away is that they don't seem to have a firm handle of the doctrines of salvation by faith alone. They think that obeying the Torah is what saves a person. Sometimes they become judgemental of the "gentile" Christian church. Next thing you know, they give up grace for something else, usually some form of Judaism, or even Noachide beliefs.

The Messianic movement is so young. How can these things be happening so soon?

God bless Yisrael
hadara

[Tishri1]

I cant remember who said it but I agree...none of us were taught real well on what the Trinity is and sooo we all can get kinda tripped up sometimes in explaining how that works(except ABBA of course);)

what you said about people converting to Judiasm after they have doubts about Yeshua is very much a close to home subject for me too...I have a relative in the same situation...

I think it starts when they doubt his Messiahship though ...A technicallity I know, but I think this "trigger" affects more Jews one way or the other, while Christians who have doubs about the Trinity can still believe in Yeshua as Messiah with very strong devotion no problem...The one that seems to send both group packing(or unpacking) is the idea of his Messiahship...

If you can convince someone of His Messiahship you have won a believer's heart, but if you can cause doubt to his Messiahship and unbelief enters in and makes a permanent home in the once faithful heart then that is where things get scary....this scripture scares me to no endHebrews 6:4-6 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. I am personally involved with a family member who is leaning toward Judiasm(in conversion away from Yeshua) and the serious point of doubt was never if Yeshua was God, it was is Yeshua God's Messiah or a fraud, a false Messiah

The opposite is also true IMO if Christians want to introduce a Jew to their Messiah present him as Their Messiah with ALL the evidence that exists in scripture and with the help of the Ruach Hakodesh (the Holy Spirit, ABBAs Spirit) that leads a person into all truth, then that Jew will have a better chance of becoming aquainted intimately with their Messiah



When someone understands that the Messiah concept is how Jews become aquainted with Yeshua ...if we really know and believe the prophesies about the Messiah we will have NO doubt...

because prophesy is History revieled and fufilled and is our proof that He is Messiah Yeshua

My relative has stopped looking at the prophetic evidence ...The evidence will always be there (Messianic Prophesy) if she should decide to look again but like I said I think she is treading dangeously close to that scripture's warning...

Pray for her everyone if you should think of her...I am truly sorrowful for her:(

I may have taken this thread on a little walk "off topic" if I did sorry I got carried away with emotion:cry:

[CovenantRay]

Shalom,

I believe that God is coming back for a glorious church. I also believe that he will seperate the wheat from the tares, and we can see this happening among all believers, Christians and Messianics (we are all one.)


The most blasphemous lie that is going on right now is the lie that Yeshua was not God in the flesh. They say He was just a mere man that had god-like powers, or something to that effect. What do we do when we see these lies in the baby Messianic movement? It is only approximately 30 years old, but already the lies have crept in. How do we keep it from spreading like gangrene? How do we know when there are wolves among us? Some people keep their beliefs quiet, and fool a great many people. We eat and have fellowship with the wolves and are none the wiser of the antiChrist spirit spreading among us.

Another tragedy among us happens when people we love get turned away from Yeshua to some other religion or philosophy. Or, they turn away from Yeshua and go back to Judaism of some sort. I have found that as soon as they start questioning that Yeshua is God, it is the first step in apostacy. Some seem to come back, but some just keep falling away until they say these horrible words: "I no longer believe Yeshua is God."


It seems one of the reasons that Messianics fall away is that they don't seem to have a firm handle of the doctrines of salvation by faith alone. They think that obeying the Torah is what saves a person. Sometimes they become judgemental of the "gentile" Christian church. Next thing you know, they give up grace for something else, usually some form of Judaism, or even Noachide beliefs.

The Messianic movement is so young. How can these things be happening so soon?

God bless Yisrael
hadara

Shalom:

I don't have the time right now to research the scriptures to back up the "arguements" for the divinity of Y'shua, but they are many.

Fundamentally, one deals with these issues in LOVE, generally using the scriptures to back the points of error. If the person does not immediately submit to your point of view, you should, in LOVE pray for the Ruach HaKodesh, or Holy Spirit, to correct the person.

It can and is frustrating to deal with people when they won't accept corrections in LOVE, but it is not our job to browbeat people with the truth. Stay in the tree of life, not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I hope this generally helps.

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Tishri1]

oh I just remembered something...My Rabbi said last shabbat that the Trinity really isnt the problem it is the solution...He said that is the biggest mystery the Jews have this oneness of God... He said there is another word that better expresses that there is just one God and it isnt Echad which means compound unity so why use Echad if you ment to say one God and have access to a better hebrew word...

something I just remembered....

[plum]

I am usually concerned when someone thinks that because they have questions or even doubts... that it must mean they're not on the right path. is the Truth always logical? Is it always comfortable or easy to understand? No.

So all I want to say is that if you doubt or have questions... do not stop asking those questions... but ask many people you trust to pray for you and to come along side you. If you (or I of course) become individualists who think that we somehow have found the right answer on our own after these questions and debates have come up for thousands of years... you (or I) may need a reality check. :)

[Wags]

Too bad the non-trinitarian messianics are not allowed to present their point of view here.

You call them wolves and I could just as easily say the same about most so-called christians that teach contary to Torah. But since I'm not allowed to say negative things about christians in this forum I will refrain from doing so.

[Sephania]

oh I just remembered something...My Rabbi said last shabbat that the Trinity really isnt the problem it is the solution...He said that is the biggest mystery the Jews have this oneness of God... He said there is another word that better expresses that there is just one God and it isnt Echad which means compound unity so why use Echad if you ment to say one God and have access to a better hebrew word...

something I just remembered....Maybe its said because HaShem said it first?

Shema Israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echad. :)

[Sephania]

Shalom,

I believe that God is coming back for a glorious church. I also believe that he will seperate the wheat from the tares, and we can see this happening among all believers, Christians and Messianics (we are all one.)


The most blasphemous lie that is going on right now is the lie that Yeshua was not God in the flesh. They say He was just a mere man that had god-like powers, or something to that effect. What do we do when we see these lies in the baby Messianic movement? It is only approximately 30 years old, but already the lies have crept in. How do we keep it from spreading like gangrene? How do we know when there are wolves among us? Some people keep their beliefs quiet, and fool a great many people. We eat and have fellowship with the wolves and are none the wiser of the antiChrist spirit spreading among us.

Another tragedy among us happens when people we love get turned away from Yeshua to some other religion or philosophy. Or, they turn away from Yeshua and go back to Judaism of some sort. I have found that as soon as they start questioning that Yeshua is God, it is the first step in apostacy. Some seem to come back, but some just keep falling away until they say these horrible words: "I no longer believe Yeshua is God."


It seems one of the reasons that Messianics fall away is that they don't seem to have a firm handle of the doctrines of salvation by faith alone. They think that obeying the Torah is what saves a person. Sometimes they become judgemental of the "gentile" Christian church. Next thing you know, they give up grace for something else, usually some form of Judaism, or even Noachide beliefs.

The Messianic movement is so young. How can these things be happening so soon?

God bless Yisrael
hadara How do you see Christians and Messianics as one?

And who is saying these things?

[plum]

Too bad the non-trinitarian messianics are not allowed to present their point of view here.

You call them wolves and I could just as easily say the same about most so-called christians that teach contary to Torah. But since I'm not allowed to say negative things about christians in this forum I will refrain from doing so.
hehe i think i'd call that poisoning the well. you already said they were wolves a second before *chuckles* ;)

[WordofGod]

Shalom,

I believe that God is coming back for a glorious church. I also believe that he will seperate the wheat from the tares, and we can see this happening among all believers, Christians and Messianics (we are all one.)


The most blasphemous lie that is going on right now is the lie that Yeshua was not God in the flesh. They say He was just a mere man that had god-like powers, or something to that effect. What do we do when we see these lies in the baby Messianic movement? It is only approximately 30 years old, but already the lies have crept in. How do we keep it from spreading like gangrene? How do we know when there are wolves among us? Some people keep their beliefs quiet, and fool a great many people. We eat and have fellowship with the wolves and are none the wiser of the antiChrist spirit spreading among us.

Another tragedy among us happens when people we love get turned away from Yeshua to some other religion or philosophy. Or, they turn away from Yeshua and go back to Judaism of some sort. I have found that as soon as they start questioning that Yeshua is God, it is the first step in apostacy. Some seem to come back, but some just keep falling away until they say these horrible words: "I no longer believe Yeshua is God."


It seems one of the reasons that Messianics fall away is that they don't seem to have a firm handle of the doctrines of salvation by faith alone. They think that obeying the Torah is what saves a person. Sometimes they become judgemental of the "gentile" Christian church. Next thing you know, they give up grace for something else, usually some form of Judaism, or even Noachide beliefs.

The Messianic movement is so young. How can these things be happening so soon?

God bless Yisrael
hadara

Shalom,

I applaud the faith we share.

[visionary]

I love the youngful exuberance of the faith as it plows through it all. May it never become sedate and set in its ways (believing the lies that works are the path to salvation). I know that those that fall into sedation need our prayers, for the devil sedates (seduces) before he devours.

[WordofGod]

I love the youngful exuberance of the faith as it plows through it all. May it never become sedate and set in its ways (believing the lies that works are the path to salvation). I know that those that fall into sedation need our prayers, for the devil sedates (seduces) before he devours.


Shalom,

Works are a path to blessings but Moshiach Yeshua is the path to salvation and is our salvation.

We have but one Savior.
HalleluYah!

[stone]

Romans 1:16-18 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile. 17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in his sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust - as the Tanakh puts it, "But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust." 18 What is revealed is God's anger from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who in their wickedness keep suppressing the truth;
***

I see that over the last several hundreds of years that what has been taught by christians is lawlessness.

***

Matthew 7:21-29 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!' 24 "So, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on bedrock. 25 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the winds blew and beat against that house, but it didn't collapse, because its foundation was on rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the wind blew and beat against that house, and it collapsed -- and its collapse was horrendous!" 28 When Yeshua had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at the way he taught, 29 for he was not instructing them like their Torah-teachers but as one who had authority himself.
***

How do i know what the truth is? 1st, i start with the word of J-sus!


***


Matthew 5:17-20 17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
***


Then from here, i see obvious errors within christianity being taught for over hundreds of years and being passed on.

Perhaps, the time has come for christians to take a reality check and actually comprehend the words written in their bibles as they are written, and remember what people wrote these words and maybe that they should listen to them.

my .02

:angel:


1 John 2:20-27 20 But you have received the Messiah's anointing from HaKadosh, and you know all this. 21 It is not because you don't know the truth that I have written to you, but because you do know it, and because no lie has its origin in the truth. 22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? Such a person is an anti-Messiah - he is denying the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son is also without the Father, but the person who acknowledges the Son has the Father as well. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with both the Son and the Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us: eternal life. 26 I have written you these things about the people who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the Messianic anointing you received from the Father remains in you, so that you have no need for anyone to teach you. On the contrary, as his Messianic anointing continues to teach you about all things, and is true, not a counterfeit, so, just as he taught you, remain united with him.
***

The key here is that we should believe what has been taught from the beginning. :thumbsup:

[stone]

Is it a sin to teach lawlessness?

***


Matthew 7:21-29 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!' 24 "So, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on bedrock. 25 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the winds blew and beat against that house, but it didn't collapse, because its foundation was on rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the wind blew and beat against that house, and it collapsed -- and its collapse was horrendous!" 28 When Yeshua had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at the way he taught, 29 for he was not instructing them like their Torah-teachers but as one who had authority himself.

***


Looks like a sin to me. Takes some kind of craftiness for people to be able to read that and believe otherwise.

[hadara]

I cant remember who said it but I agree...none of us were taught real well on what the Trinity is and sooo we all can get kinda tripped up sometimes in explaining how that works(except ABBA of course);)

what you said about people converting to Judiasm after they have doubts about Yeshua is very much a close to home subject for me too...I have a relative in the same situation...

I think it starts when they doubt his Messiahship though ...A technicallity I know, but I think this "trigger" affects more Jews one way or the other, while Christians who have doubs about the Trinity can still believe in Yeshua as Messiah with very strong devotion no problem...The one that seems to send both group packing(or unpacking) is the idea of his Messiahship...

If you can convince someone of His Messiahship you have won a believer's heart, but if you can cause doubt to his Messiahship and unbelief enters in and makes a permanent home in the once faithful heart then that is where things get scary....this scripture scares me to no endI am personally involved with a family member who is leaning toward Judiasm(in conversion away from Yeshua) and the serious point of doubt was never if Yeshua was God, it was is Yeshua God's Messiah or a fraud, a false Messiah

The opposite is also true IMO if Christians want to introduce a Jew to their Messiah present him as Their Messiah with ALL the evidence that exists in scripture and with the help of the Ruach Hakodesh (the Holy Spirit, ABBAs Spirit) that leads a person into all truth, then that Jew will have a better chance of becoming aquainted intimately with their Messiah



When someone understands that the Messiah concept is how Jews become aquainted with Yeshua ...if we really know and believe the prophesies about the Messiah we will have NO doubt...

because prophesy is History revieled and fufilled and is our proof that He is Messiah Yeshua

My relative has stopped looking at the prophetic evidence ...The evidence will always be there (Messianic Prophesy) if she should decide to look again but like I said I think she is treading dangeously close to that scripture's warning...

Pray for her everyone if you should think of her...I am truly sorrowful for her:(

I may have taken this thread on a little walk "off topic" if I did sorry I got carried away with emotion:cry:




Thank you for your reply. You have gone through the same thing I have gone through.
I have personally gone through seeing a Christian Jewish friend go from the Christian church, to a Messianic church, and then he started studying with the rabbis, who in turn helped convince him that Yeshua broke Torah and that he was not the Messiah. He, then one day admitted that he was converting to Judaism, and that he no longer believed Yeshua was God. He started spelling Jesus as "J*" and also studied kabbalah. He changed his name to a more Jewish sounding name.

Yeshua said, "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." I think He wanted people to realize that He was God in the flesh. In the book of Isaiah, God says that Israel was to acknowledge "no other Savior but me." If Yeshua is our Savior, then He is that same God that brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. So I think that people have to both realize the prophecies about Yeshua and also who He is - God manifest in the flesh. If anyone wants to see God, they just have to look at Yeshua. One of the disciples asked Yeshua to see the Father. Yeshua said, "Don't you know me, Phillip, after I have been among you for such a long time.?" Note that He did not say, "Haven't I shown you who God is?"

I think also that perhaps the reason some return to Judaism or some other religion is that they don't understand salvation. They don't understand that works don't save, it is faith in the Son of God that resurrected Himself on the 3rd day.

For example, I knew this Catholic lady who used to always say these pious-sounding sayings. She sounded so humble. She would always say, "We are all sinners."
One day I noticed she was reading a book by the Dalai Lama. I looked on her desk and didn't see a Bible there, just eastern religious books.

To make a long story short, she told me that "good" people like the Dalai Lama are saved because they do good to others. By that statement, she proved she did not understand the sinfulness of mankind, nor how we have all fallen short of God's glory - the Torah IMO - because when we break one commandment, we have actually broken them all, making us hopeless before God as sinners. So, she also then believed that she was saved by her good deeds. She didn't understand salvation at all, and her words "we're all sinners" was just a mindless phrase that she uttered frequently, but unfortunately didn't understand.

May Yeshua open our minds to the fact that Judaism doesn't save, Bhuddism doesn't save, even Christianity doesn't save - only Yeshua saves!

hadara :)

[hadara]

Too bad the non-trinitarian messianics are not allowed to present their point of view here.

You call them wolves and I could just as easily say the same about most so-called christians that teach contary to Torah. But since I'm not allowed to say negative things about christians in this forum I will refrain from doing so.



Shalom,

I don't think I mentioned the Trinity in my first post (even though it is the Truth,) the main concept I was trying to get accross is apostacy in its many forms.
Yeshua is God is the flesh, and to deny that is simply one form of apostacy.

Since Yeshua referred to the Ruach as "He," then the Ruach is obviously also a person. So we have the Godhead: Yeshua, Ruach, YHWH.

There is nothing negative about that! :wave:
God has obviously used great Jewish and Gentile men and women of God to teach us His truths. Sometimes it seems that some people who are not in the "mainstream" Christian church think that the mainstreamers have it all wrong. The most faith-filled man Yeshua met on earth was a Gentile - we have all been given a measure of faith to start with, but there isn't any reason why we can't ask for me, and believe more, believe the things that seem difficult to understand - such as the Trinity.

hadara.

[hadara]

Zayit wrote, "How do you see Christians and Messianics as one?

And who is saying these things?"


Are you joking with me about the first question?

Christians and Messianics are believers in Yeshua, and in One body. We are One.


I guess you haven't experienced apostacy? I don't know what Messianic leader is denying that Yeshua is God, but I have heard many testimonies of it happening. You can find them even on the net, messianic leaders talking about this problem of fellow Messianics going back to Judaism. Do you know not of anyone that has renounced Yeshua?

There's other things, too, such as Monte Judah denying the inspiration of the book of Hebrews, or some Messianic teachers denying the NT as scripture.

Zayit, you are here at a Christian forum, and you ask how we are one? You are here with them, aren't you? You love them, obviously, or you wouldn't be here.

I am not ashamed of the name "Christian."
Perhaps you could re-define your question so I could understand it better?

thanks, hadara