lutheran belief about the Sacrament [Holy Eucharist]

[pjw]

another question about Confessional and Traditional Lutheran belief about the Holy Eucharist.
it is often stated in Reformed confessions that some believe that Christ's Body and Blood is present "in with and under" the elements of bread and wine. I presume this refers to the Eucharistic belief of the Evangelical Catholic [Lutheran] Churches, from what I have read of your Confessions.
what I am interested in is how this is believed to occur? Reformed often accuse Lutherans of believing that Christ's Body and Blood come down from Heaven and fill the bread and wine. I know that in Vatican Catholic, EO, and Reformed Churches the change is believed to occur through the work of the Holy Spirit [albeit different understandings of this are held]
what is the Lutheran belief regarding how Christ's Body and Blood are present in the Eucharist? is it through the power of the Holy Spirit (do Lutheran liturgies contain an epiclesis?), or by Christ's Body and Blood filling the bread and wine?
thanks!

[Melethiel]

(do Lutheran liturgies contain an epiclesis?)

We generally argue about that. :P

[pjw]

We generally argue about that. :P
i've read two lutheran liturgies before, Ukrainian and Norweigian (maybe Finnish or Swedish), and both had no explicit epiclesis. but i've seen somebody quote a liturgy on here with an epiclesis before, so maybe they aren't all like that.
i take it that lutheranism is a bit like anglicanism in the "we agree to disagree on that" department (except not quite so broad on what you agree to disagree on?)

[JVAC]

In the Lutheran Book of Worship there are two forms with the epiclesis. However there is a form without. Lutherans allow the epiclesis a place in their liturgy but they believe the sacrament truly happens as a result of the "institution narrative" [verba]. So with respect to Liturgical forms, if you are high church the epiclesis will remain, if you are way low church only expect to see the institution narrative followed by the Lord's prayer.

With respect to your other questions, the confessions dogmatically assert that Christ's body and blood are "in, with, and under" the bread and wine as you have stated. Luther began the reformation by asking for liberty in the belief of manifestation in his "Babylonian Captivity" however, later years saw animosity to the RC's and so this dogma found it's way into the confessions, (I say dogma and not doctrine, because I think the words carry different tones).

As for who makes the sacrament a Sacrament, it is most definitly Christ who made the promise, the spirit that works in it, with it, and through it, God the Father is the recipient of the Eucharistic Sacrifice and we who recieve the grace.

-James

[pjw]

thanks jvac!
maybe i could state my question a little more clearly...
how do lutherans believe that Christ's Body and Blood come to be present in the Eucharist? is it that somehow Christ descends from Heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit and fills the bread and wine, or that the bread and wine are actually changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, while remaining bread and wine, or that it is all a sacred mystery that we cannot understand?

[Melethiel]

Given my EO tendecies, I go with the latter. Others may disagree with me...

[Tetzel]

It's mystery. If scripture doesn't tell us how it happens, then it's not for us to know

[BigNorsk]

It is a mystery in many ways. I think it would be accurate to say in Lutheran theology that the Holy Spirit is not emphasized as the active participant but rather Jesus' own words are what sacramentally causes his body and blood to be present. The words are spoken by the man chosen by God to do so and the words are as though they are spoken directly by Jesus himself.

It would be somewhat like in creation where we see that everything is created through Christ (Col 1:16, John 1:3), yet if you read the Genesis account you see that God's Spirit is also involved (Gen 1:2) but we aren't really told exactly how the Spirit is involved. So too we aren't really told much of how the Holy Spirit is really involved in the Lord's Supper, yet it would be difficult to believe he isn't involved at all.

We don't really think in terms of the elements being filled. That would really speak to the idea of transubstantiation where the elements are truly replaced by Jesus' body and blood, we aren't told that that happens. Only that the bread and wine, which are still referred to as such after the words of institution and so aren't gone, are the body and blood of our Lord. So bread, wine, body, blood, all present, exactly how, God knows.

What we are told in scripture is vague, if someone precisely defines what happens he is probably precisely wrong. And is certainly wrong if he teaches it as anything more than a possible explanation.

If there is no epiclesis in all Lutheran liturgies you can blame it on the fact that where the Lord's Supper is recorded in scripture, there is no explicite epiclesis. Something that becomes problematic if one wants to maintain that it is an essential part.

Marv