Was this proper advise?

[JulySheMustFly]

(cross-posted)
A man and his girlfriend who live together started attending a church with their 5 year old daughter. The man becomes a Christian. He loves his girlfriend and wants to marry her. She has not become a Christian yet but is earnestly exploring Christianity. She is not comfortable getting married yet because of divorce in her own family growing up. Through counsil with the leadership of the church they are attending the man is advised to move out of their apartment he shares with his girlfriend and daughter in order to remove himself from sinful behavior until they are married and to help his girlfriend understand why he should do this and work on leading her to Christ.

Was this the proper way to advise this man to stop sinning and start his walk with Christ?
Thoughts?

[flyingsum0]

Ive always believed deeply in leading by example. I pray if he does move out it does not end his girlfriends search for Christ. People do funny things when they feel as if they are faced with am ultimatum

I pray for them both

[Disippelen]

(cross-posted)
A man and his girlfriend who live together started attending a church with their 5 year old daughter. The man becomes a Christian. He loves his girlfriend and wants to marry her. She has not become a Christian yet but is earnestly exploring Christianity. She is not comfortable getting married yet because of divorce in her own family growing up. Through counsil with the leadership of the church they are attending the man is advised to move out of their apartment he shares with his girlfriend and daughter in order to remove himself from sinful behavior until they are married and to help his girlfriend understand why he should do this and work on leading her to Christ.

Was this the proper way to advise this man to stop sinning and start his walk with Christ?
Thoughts?
Hey... I think that the advice was very good.

If he is to be a christian he is not allowed to live (sexually) with a women unless she is his (one and only!) wife.

If they were already married, then the man should not leave her, but stay with her if she accepts it. But since they are not married - it is correct by the man to move out until she eventually marries him.

I think that by doing this, the man is obedient to God. And by being obedient to God, God's will shall happen, and God loves him and his girlfriend. By being obedient he might give the girlfriend a chance to become christian, as she sees his obedience to God, which is also love for her (since God loves her).

If he continues to live with her (sexually - implicite since they live in the same appartment), he will sin against God, and how can he then hope for her to accept Jesus for salvation - if he lives in conflict with God?


So the man should stop the sin (living with a woman outside marriage), move out and continue to pray for his girlfriend and show God's love and Truth for her, so that she might meet Jesus Christ and accept Him as the loving saviour He is. When she eventually have faith in Jesus Christ, they should marry.

(I can give you scriptures on this if you want, esp. 1. Cor 7 and 11)


your brother in Christ

Magnus

[MercuryAndy]

bad advice. they are losing money. but the reasons the advice was given is good.

[Athanasian Creed]

I think it was excellent advise - continuing to live in sin by "shacking up" would only cloud the issues regarding the guy's obedience to the word of God and the girl's exploring Christianity. Once they are apart, he can concentrate on his relationship with Christ and she can explore her options without the added temptation to sin that would result if they remained living together.

A lie of Satan would be for them to continue living together so he can "be a witness" and "lead her to the Lord." It is often used to justify being "unequally yoked - believers with non-believers. It only leads to compromise and the one generally doing the compromising is the believer. Our first responsibility is to the Lord and in obedience to Him. ;)



Ray :wave:

[Randi]

I agree with just about everything that's already been said. It was definately good advice.

[JulySheMustFly]

How do you think the father moving out impacts the child?

[JulySheMustFly]

bad advice. they are losing money. but the reasons the advice was given is good.

They didn't lose any money. He temp. moved out and stayed in the spare room of one of my family members.

[MercuryAndy]

They didn't lose any money. He temp. moved out and stayed in the spare room of one of my family members.

ok that makes sence then. I dont think he had to move just substain from sexual acts untill they get married would be good.

[holo]

(cross-posted)
A man and his girlfriend who live together started attending a church with their 5 year old daughter. The man becomes a Christian. He loves his girlfriend and wants to marry her. She has not become a Christian yet but is earnestly exploring Christianity. She is not comfortable getting married yet because of divorce in her own family growing up. Through counsil with the leadership of the church they are attending the man is advised to move out of their apartment he shares with his girlfriend and daughter in order to remove himself from sinful behavior until they are married and to help his girlfriend understand why he should do this and work on leading her to Christ.

Was this the proper way to advise this man to stop sinning and start his walk with Christ?
Thoughts?Um, am I missing something here? What's the sin he's commiting?

[MercuryAndy]

Um, am I missing something here? What's the sin he's commiting?

i thought they had a baby or something.

[LJSGM]

(cross-posted)
A man and his girlfriend who live together started attending a church with their 5 year old daughter. The man becomes a Christian. He loves his girlfriend and wants to marry her. She has not become a Christian yet but is earnestly exploring Christianity. She is not comfortable getting married yet because of divorce in her own family growing up. Through counsil with the leadership of the church they are attending the man is advised to move out of their apartment he shares with his girlfriend and daughter in order to remove himself from sinful behavior until they are married and to help his girlfriend understand why he should do this and work on leading her to Christ.

Was this the proper way to advise this man to stop sinning and start his walk with Christ?
Thoughts?
In God's eyes, they are already married. Let man not seperate what God has joined together.

[CrazyforYeshua]

They aren't married, just living in sin. A marraige includes a ceremony.

[LJSGM]

They aren't married, just living in sin. A marraige includes a ceremony.
Yeah, a ceremony makes it alll better...:sick:

[LJSGM]

Here, this is what I posted on another thread. Do with it what you will....

Sex before marriage is nonsensical

That's like saying marriage before marriage:sick:

You are married if you are married in God's eyes. Not in the eyes of the state or any other legal institution. What then is marriage? Sex is the very act of marriage.

Mary and Joseph:

Matthew 1

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Taking your vows might pledge you to someone, but you are not yet married in God's eyes until you come together, or have sex.

This marriage analogy is the one Jesus used as well for his bride. Two people would make their vows, they then would prepare themselves, the man by making a home for his soon to be wife, and the woman to becoming more like her husband. He would come and get her (around a year) and they would marry (sex), (often times I think the parents even watched as evidence that they were married-sex) and after he took her to his tent, they had a celebration or a wedding banquet. You cannot seperate sex from marriage. It's men that have seperated the two somehow down through the ages, but they have not seperated in God's eyes.

[livingword26]

I would be curious to know what kind of church this is. A family begins to go to church, begins to seek God. The pastor tries to split up the family so that they are not sinning? This is legalistic ignorance. The minute they had sex together the first time, they became on flesh. They need to be praying for this family and accepting them and teaching them instead of pointing the finger at them. What is this wife going to think about Christians when a pastor tries to break up her family. The word of God and the Holy Ghost will guide them and convict them.

[holo]

Am I getting this right? They're living in the same house without being married. Therefore they have sex, which is sinful since they're not married. Is that correct?

[LJSGM]

Am I getting this right? They're living in the same house without being married. Therefore they have sex, which is sinful since they're not married. Is that correct?
Since he is offline and that question is sooo easy to answer, I'll answer for him

Yes, I'm sure that's what he mean, because that is the distorted view that most christians hold.

[Disippelen]

Since he is offline and that question is sooo easy to answer, I'll answer for him

Yes, I'm sure that's what he mean, because that is the distorted view that most christians hold.


WHAT?

"distorted view"??



it is a sin to have sex outside the marriage!

how can you say anything else?

the Bible is clear on this:




Matt 5:28:

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."


Matt 19:4-6:

Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."


John 4:16-18:

He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Acts 15:19-20:

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."


1 Cor 7:8-9:

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."


Hebrewes 13:4:

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.




If you're not convinced by this, tell me, and I'll give you an even deeper explanation!


Magnus :)

[LJSGM]

WHAT?

"distorted view"??



it is a sin to have sex outside the marriage!

how can you say anything else?

the Bible is clear on this:




Matt 5:28:

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."


Matt 19:4-6:

Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."


John 4:16-18:

He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Acts 15:19-20:

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."


1 Cor 7:8-9:

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."


Hebrewes 13:4:

Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.




If you're not convinced by this, tell me, and I'll give you an even deeper explanation!


Magnus :)
What, you don't think that I"ve read these verses??

[Randi]

I get what you're saying LJSGM, because I've heard it before. But I'm sorry, it's very wrong. Having sex with someone is not marriage. The Bible is clear that people have to be married BEFORE they have sex. The Bible doesn't tell us exactly how to get married, but it tells us to get married. In our society you must have someone perform a marriage ceremony and both people must sign the license along with witnesses. That's how WE do it, so it's what must be done in our society before 2 people have sex, in order not to sin. In other societies perhaps it's different.

[Randi]

And yes, it would be hard on the child. But the father would need to explain that he has to obey God. He would need to stay completely involved in the little girl's life until he could eventually marry the mother. It's not and ideal situation, obviously, but it's what would have to be done.


And, personally, I still think it would be sinful for them to continue living together even if they didn't have sex. We aren't to even be in the appearance of evil.

[holo]

WHAT?

"distorted view"??



it is a sin to have sex outside the marriage!Ah, but the problem wasn't with the idea that sex outside marriage is a sin, but that living together means you're having sex, which is a presumption. I've been told I can't live in the same apartment as my girlfriend. Why? Because then we'll have sex, apparently. I don't know why christians don't have sex outside of their common bedroom or why they're not having sex unless they live in the same house.


And, personally, I still think it would be sinful for them to continue living together even if they didn't have sex. We aren't to even be in the appearance of evil.And here's the source of the problem. People would rather have the father actually move away from his family, marry the mother, and then move back in. Because he's not to "give the appearance of evil".

This is the perfect example of how insane and ruthless christianity can be.

What, exactly, is "evil" about a man living with his SO and child?

[bod44]

Ah, but the problem wasn't with the idea that sex outside marriage is a sin, but that living together means you're having sex, which is a presumption. I've been told I can't live in the same apartment as my girlfriend. Why? Because then we'll have sex, apparently. I don't know why christians don't have sex outside of their common bedroom or why they're not having sex unless they live in the same house.


And here's the source of the problem. People would rather have the father actually move away from his family, marry the mother, and then move back in. Because he's not to "give the appearance of evil".

This is the perfect example of how insane and ruthless christianity can be.

What, exactly, is "evil" about a man living with his SO and child?
well, if they have a kid then that must mean that theyre having sex. And yes it is dumb to think that only if you live together you're having sex. I agree. But, its a whole lot easier and a whole lot more often if you do. God will bless that man for his stand and God will use that to show his girlfriend how serious he is about serving God and God will also use that to begin working on the child's heart. If you look at things through God's eyes rather than man's eyes, you'll stop worrying about how "ruthless" God is. It says in Romans 8:28 that we know that all things work together for the good of those who Love God. Plus even if they weren't having sex(maybe in your case?) 1 Thess. 5:22 tells us to abstain from even the APPEARANCE of evil. So, lets not even look like we might be having sex. 2 Tim. 2:22 says flee also youthful lusts which means don't put yourself in a situation where you're gonna fall. While you might say I'm cold and ruthless, you would be a good example of how shallow and unscriptural christianity can be. We aren't supposed to be living just like the world you know...

[LJSGM]

I get what you're saying LJSGM, because I've heard it before. But I'm sorry, it's very wrong. Having sex with someone is not marriage. The Bible is clear that people have to be married BEFORE they have sex. The Bible doesn't tell us exactly how to get married, but it tells us to get married. In our society you must have someone perform a marriage ceremony and both people must sign the license along with witnesses. That's how WE do it, so it's what must be done in our society before 2 people have sex, in order not to sin. In other societies perhaps it's different.

Well, you are right, our society has a marriage ceremony that even includes the church in it, but it wasn't made by God. WHat is the marriage God made for man? He started with Adam and Eve. The two became one flesh. He explains why in Genisis - Eve was made from Adam's body, so they come together and become one flesh. They obviously didn't have any ceremony to make them married, they just became one in flesh through having sex. After that, through the old testiment, people got married in that same way. Rules were developed for marriage, namely that a woman was owned by her Father, and for someone to marry her, they had to do a deal with her Father which involved payment. Then the father gave her to the man. There was still no ceremony as we know it, just legal right to have her (See Ruth for a legal rights issue over who should marry her). Have a look at the account of Issac and Rebecca - Gen 24: 67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; (That is he had sex with her).

After the law was given, there was still no marriage ceremony, and the levites/priests did not perform marriage ceremonies. Things continued in the same way. In the new testiment times, they still did deals with the parents for the right to marry the daughter. After they had an agreement, they usually had a waiting period after which the man took the woman into his home and they were married - had sex and became one flesh. After which they had a big party to celebrate them becoming married.

In modern times, we have turned marriage into a religious ceremony, which is all a tradition of man, that came out of the roman catholic church, with preists marrying people and saying they represented God in making them married. We have mistaken the ceremony for the thing that makes two people one. We say sex is consumating the marriage, but it is the authority of man that makes them married. We say two people who are living together but are not legally married are living in sin. But God sees things a little differently than we do. He says, what God joins together, let no man seperate. That means GOd joins them together, not a man made ceremony. Not a legal contract (legal marriage has come about due to property rights, and I'm not sure how long it has been around but it is only a few centuries). If what man joins together is true marriage, then man can also seperate them and it not be adultery, but as Jesus said, if a man (legally) divorces his wife, he forces her to commit adultery, and if he remarries, he commits adultery also. Christians should only care who God has joined together, not the state. They have made laws that say you can divorce each other, and are soon to make laws that saw gays can marry. In God's eyes neither of those are true, yet Christians equate legal marriage to being married in God's eyes.

This is what marriage really is. Two people make a commitment to each other (with a ceremony or not; with witnesses or not, it doesnt' matter). Have sex and become one in the eyes of God. They are joined together by God. It is a spiritual joining of their flesh together. If they ever seperate and have sex with another, they commit adultery. If they live together but never get legally married, they have committed no sin in God's eyes. What of those people who have sex without commitment? That is sexual immorality. Sleeping around is sexual immorality. Having sex with someone who is married or divorced is sexual immorality.

The family we are talking about has not done anything like that at. They might not be fully committed to each other considering the woman doesn't want to get married, but they are still one, and in a committed relationship since they are living together with a child. Seperating them is the very definition of seperating what God has joined together. For the sake of their understanding of righteousness and incorrect doctrine, that church is probably going to make that woman never want to become a Christian after seeing them seperate her from her husband, and a child from her father. The church is so wrong on this. The church would probably be fine about him marrying another woman since he hadn't actually legally been married. That is how upside down their doctrine is. It is unfortunate that the church is so wrong and so foolish about this issue. It is blindness.

There is nowhere in the whole Bible where it says do not have sex before marriage, because that would be impossible. The word they try to use to mean sex before marriage is the word fornication, which simply means sexual impurity and applies to all sexual impurity, including sex without commitment, going from partner to partner.

When we understand the truth of this, we understand why adultery is such a sin - it is taking another persons wife/husband and becoming one with them. It is no wonder God hates it so much. I wish everyone understood these things, especially the youth, because at the moment they are told having sex before marriage is a mere sin. It might be a bad sin, but it is just a sin. Instead what it really is, is becoming one with that person for the rest of your life. From then on God will always see you as married to that person, and if you marry someone else, you commit adultery. (I don't mean to be legalistic, God's grace does abound and I believe can overcome even this and sometimes redeem a person from a past marriage and enable them to marry again in purity.)

Here are some verses to think about:

1 Cor 6:16 The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&version=31#fen-NIV-28468b)] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Romans 7:2 A married woman belongs to her husband by law as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free from the law that made her belong to her husband. 3So if she belongs to another man while her husband is living, she commits adultery. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law. Then if she belongs to another man, she does not commit adultery.

Mark 10
Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.

3And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?"
4They said, "(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24593C))Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."
5But Jesus said to them, "(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24594D))Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6"But (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24595E))from the beginning of creation, God (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24595F))MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
7"(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24596G))FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#fen-NASB-24596a)],
8(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24597H))AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9"What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
10In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
11And He said to them, "(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24600I))Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12and (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=49&context=chapter#cen-NASB-24601J))if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

[holo]

well, if they have a kid then that must mean that theyre having sex. And yes it is dumb to think that only if you live together you're having sex. I agree. But, its a whole lot easier and a whole lot more often if you do. God will bless that man for his stand and God will use that to show his girlfriend how serious he is about serving God and God will also use that to begin working on the child's heart. If you look at things through God's eyes rather than man's eyes, you'll stop worrying about how "ruthless" God is. It says in Romans 8:28 that we know that all things work together for the good of those who Love God. Plus even if they weren't having sex(maybe in your case?) 1 Thess. 5:22 tells us to abstain from even the APPEARANCE of evil. So, lets not even look like we might be having sex. 2 Tim. 2:22 says flee also youthful lusts which means don't put yourself in a situation where you're gonna fall. While you might say I'm cold and ruthless, you would be a good example of how shallow and unscriptural christianity can be. We aren't supposed to be living just like the world you know...I understand, but sex isn't evil. There are more or less valid reasons for restricting it to marriage though. In any case they're not to be judged, especially not for something that happened before he found God.

And I don't think God is ruthless, because I don't think He would have the guy move out so that he doesn't give "the appearance of sin" - it's not like he'll offend anyone, he'll just raise a few christian eybrows on people who figure it's their business.

[CrazyforYeshua]

The definition of marraige, in the New testament is this:
G1062
γάμος
gamos
gam'-os
Of uncertain affinity; nuptials: - marriage, wedding.

I think when God says marraige, He means exactly what it says. A ceremony uniting 2 people. That is not just having sex.

[Disippelen]

What, you don't think that I"ve read these verses??


Well.. it seems you have then..

but why don't you live by them??



Magnus :)

[LJSGM]

The definition of marraige, in the New testament is this:
G1062
γάμος
gamos
gam'-os
Of uncertain affinity; nuptials: - marriage, wedding.

I think when God says marraige, He means exactly what it says. A ceremony uniting 2 people. That is not just having sex.

How then does a ceremony make two people one? The pastor because he's christian? That would mean that those that have not been married by a christian would not be truely married in God's eyes, and last time I checked, we don't remarry people when they become christian. Is it a legal certification that makes us married? then What about countries that do not have legal contracts for marriage, which there are quite a few of them that don't, does that mean they are not married? No, of course not. I have not seen christians remarry new christians for this reason either. What part of a ceremony then makes two people one in God's eyes? Because the in-laws celebrated? If it's an oath that makes two people one, then what about people that make an oath to each other without a wedding ceremony? Are they then married? Since you seem to be so good at deciding who is married in God's eyes, and who is not (dangerous) what in a ceremony makes two people one?

Genesis 29
21 Then Jacob said to Laban, "Give me my wife. My time is completed, and I want to lie with her."

22 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. 23 But when evening came, he took his daughter Leah and gave her to Jacob, and Jacob lay with her. 24 And Laban gave his servant girl Zilpah to his daughter as her maidservant.
25 When morning came, there was Leah! So Jacob said to Laban, "What is this you have done to me? I served you for Rachel, didn't I? Why have you deceived me?"
26 Laban replied, "It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the older one. 27 Finish this daughter's bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work." 28 And Jacob did so. He finished the week with Leah, and then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. 29 Laban gave his servant girl Bilhah to his daughter Rachel as her maidservant. 30 Jacob lay with Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah. And he worked for Laban another seven years.

Genesis 30
Then she said, "Here is Bilhah, my maidservant. Sleep with her so that she can bear children for me and that through her I too can build a family."
4 So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife. Jacob slept with her, 5 and she became pregnant and bore him a son. 6 Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=30&version=31#fen-NIV-837a)]

Exodus 22
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.

[indagroove]

In God's eyes, they are already married. Let man not seperate what God has joined together.

Maybe, but in the girlfriend's eyes, they are not.

And from the OP, we learn that the girlfriend does not want to be married to her daughter's father.

[handmaiden97]

I think it is great advice! as far as your question about the effect on the child, well he can still stay in close contact with the kids, hang out and be a dad, with out living in sin...besidees what a great example to set for th ekid, they see Dad's obedience to Christ above all else

[handmaiden97]

LJSGM....remember that Joseph and Mary were betrothed (legally married in Jewish standards so much so he would of had to offically divorce her) . yet hey had not yet had sex. In jewish betrothals the couple is considered married long befor they consumate the marriage. infact they used to go through a period of time where he built them a room and she was to remain pure, if she came up pregnant inthat time, she would be considered an adulteress, and could be stoned to death. so in that respect your reasoning is faulty sex does not equal marriage as marriage can happend long before sex does.

secondly if your reasoning were true every person who has had sex with more then one partner is practising polygammy even if they are only with one person at a time.

I advice you to reserch and see the different ceremonies cultures have for marriage.....I cant think of any culture off the top of my head where a person is married simply by havign sex. You mentioned the many couples who were married in the bible...true scripture does not mention a ceremony per say but Jewish tradion describes a beautifyl picture of marriage and it is a wonderful picture of christ and the church. when Dinah brothers found out she had had sex they forced the man to go through the proper protocals to marry her...(grant it their reason was to kill him, but their was still things he had to do to make the marriage real)

[LJSGM]

LJSGM....remember that Joseph and Mary were betrothed (legally married in Jewish standards so much so he would of had to offically divorce her) . yet hey had not yet had sex. In jewish betrothals the couple is considered married long befor they consumate the marriage. infact they used to go through a period of time where he built them a room and she was to remain pure, if she came up pregnant inthat time, she would be considered an adulteress, and could be stoned to death. so in that respect your reasoning is faulty sex does not equal marriage as marriage can happend long before sex does.

secondly if your reasoning were true every person who has had sex with more then one partner is practising polygammy even if they are only with one person at a time.

I advice you to reserch and see the different ceremonies cultures have for marriage.....I cant think of any culture off the top of my head where a person is married simply by havign sex. You mentioned the many couples who were married in the bible...true scripture does not mention a ceremony per say but Jewish tradion describes a beautifyl picture of marriage and it is a wonderful picture of christ and the church. when Dinah brothers found out she had had sex they forced the man to go through the proper protocals to marry her...(grant it their reason was to kill him, but their was still things he had to do to make the marriage real)

Betrothed actually means pledged to be married, taking an oath to God was a very big deal, if you broke an oath you would be stoned to death in those days, and this tradition was brought about over time through dealings with the parents. It was not this way from the beginning. Jesus even rebukes the pharisees about their tradition of divorce, in that they are allowing adultry, and his case it that it was not this way from the beginning.

You can not become pledged to be married to someone and already be married, that just doesn't make sense. Therefore bethrothal does not equal marriage. It is an act done before the actually marriage takes place brought about by tradition. It's a good tradition as well, since Jesus supports it in his words. An oath before parents and other christians is good and should be supported, but that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing against seperating a family that is already married for the sake of man's traditions.

Mark 7:9
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=9&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-24470a)] your own traditions!

We are Jesus' bethrothed, that is we are promised to him, and when he resurrects us, then the marriage will begin and we will become one, with a wedding feast set out before us. I agree, it is beautiful.

secondly, if someone sleeps with another, and they are already married, it's considered adultry, not polygamy. And yes, there was polygamy in those days, but through God's word He definitly does not support this in the new testament, it is wrong as well. The only way it could be polygamy is if the person you were having sex with was not already married. The world has ready messed up a beautiful marriage arrangment that's for sure.

My advice for the married couple would be not to seperate them, but since they are not even christians, I would first lead them to Christ, and then deal with their sin of non-commitment. The woman has to know that even if she does not consider herself married, it would be just as damaging to her child if she left her husband now, then if she had gotten a legal certificate and then left him later on. That is what she is scared of, is it not?

[Ps28:7]

i think the advice was fairly good...i don't know the effect on the child but i think that if the man really loves them then he won't abandon them...
and no sex does not indicate marriage...if you can legally be divorced then you must have been legally placed together
Genesis 30
Then she said, "Here is Bilhah, my maidservant. Sleep with her so that she can bear children for me and that through her I too can build a family."
4 So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife. Jacob slept with her, 5 and she became pregnant and bore him a son. 6 Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=30&version=31#fen-NIV-837a)]
So this means that Jacob was now married to 3 people and commiting adultery with...Leah, Rachel, and the maidservant...right, esp. since he hasn't legally divorced either one. and i kinda view the traditional marriage ceremony in the united states kinda like water baptism, it's something that everyones sees and a testimony to what God has done in your life...
anyways more on this later, i've gotta go take salsa lesson

[Lynn73]

bad advice. they are losing money. but the reasons the advice was given is good.

I can understand what you're saying, believe me, but should finances determine whether we do what's right or not?

[MercuryAndy]

I can understand what you're saying, believe me, but should finances determine whether we do what's right or not?

they shouldnt. but they do.

what is worse a man who leaves a family who cannot feed themselves or a man who leaves his family but gives them lots of money to look after them?

[christandisrael]

(cross-posted)
A man and his girlfriend who live together started attending a church with their 5 year old daughter. The man becomes a Christian. He loves his girlfriend and wants to marry her. She has not become a Christian yet but is earnestly exploring Christianity. She is not comfortable getting married yet because of divorce in her own family growing up. Through counsil with the leadership of the church they are attending the man is advised to move out of their apartment he shares with his girlfriend and daughter in order to remove himself from sinful behavior until they are married and to help his girlfriend understand why he should do this and work on leading her to Christ.

Was this the proper way to advise this man to stop sinning and start his walk with Christ?
Thoughts?
I hate to say this but as long as the man commits to her, he can never leave him, but she can leave him. And before they can commit, she must not try to convert him.