The Purpose of Private Confession in the Lutheran Church

[ByzantineDixie]

What purpose does the role of private confession play in the Lutheran church? I read this blog article (http://beggarsall.blogspot.com/2006/07/brief-admonition.html)and I see the role as leading one to the Gospel but when Christ absolved the woman at the well He said "Go and sin no more." Would Lutherans agree that part of the role of Confession / Absolution is to lead one to a true repentance? Or do Lutherans believe that repentance isn't the goal?

[MrJim]

Do Lutherans "do" confession like RCC?

[LilLamb219]

Lutherans go to private confession to be absolved. To want to confess already shows repentance.

[ByzantineDixie]

Lutherans go to private confession to be absolved. To want to confess already shows repentance.

Could you expand a bit on that? How does wanting to confess equate with repentance? Thanks.

[BigNorsk]

In Scandinavian Lutherans (Sweden, Norway, Denmarck) private confession and absolution plays almost no role whatsoever. Private confession was one of the reasons that the Scandinavian churches pretty well rejected most of the Confessions, not the only reason, but a significant one. The Scandinavian churches have from the very start of Lutheranism practiced corporate and not individual confession.

So you do not see individual confession like the RCC practiced in churches with Scandinavian background though I do not think that someone earnestly desiring to make a confession would be turned away, it is not urged on people to confess to another person but rather to directly confess to God.

Other Lutheran churches retain individual confession, but in practice do not usually do it much. There are a few (probably very few) Lutheran churches that it would be practiced commonly, at least by some individuals.

Marv

[C.F.W. Walther]

In Scandinavian Lutherans (Sweden, Norway, Denmarck) private confession and absolution plays almost no role whatsoever. Private confession was one of the reasons that the Scandinavian churches pretty well rejected most of the Confessions, not the only reason, but a significant one. The Scandinavian churches have from the very start of Lutheranism practiced corporate and not individual confession.

So you do not see individual confession like the RCC practiced in churches with Scandinavian background though I do not think that someone earnestly desiring to make a confession would be turned away, it is not urged on people to confess to another person but rather to directly confess to God.

Other Lutheran churches retain individual confession, but in practice do not usually do it much. There are a few (probably very few) Lutheran churches that it would be practiced commonly, at least by some individuals.

Marv

Well by in large in the LCMS we do NOT practice private confession. At least out of the 10-15 odd Lutheran churches I've attended over the last 40 years have not practiced it. Whatever the synod espouses is not necessarily what each congreation practices. We also use mass confession and absolution as a norm so I don't see it as any differant than the Lutheran Bretheran in that aspect

[C.F.W. Walther]

Could you expand a bit on that? How does wanting to confess equate with repentance? Thanks.

This is one of the best explanations of some of the topic you refer to even thoough I'm not sure if it's total Lutheran. I still like the explanation,

Monergism vs. Synergism
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/whatismonergism.html

[LilLamb219]

Well by in large in the LCMS we do NOT practice private confession.

Edited. I just noticed you said "by in large" and that is correct that the majority of the people do not go for private confession/absolution. But the LCMS still practices private confession if it is desired.

[Chemnitz]

Private confession is available to any Missouri Synod Lutheran. All he or she needs to do is make an appointment with his or her pastor.

As a rule though this is not done except in cases of "very serious sin". Otherwise the absolution given every Sunday morning is usually considered sufficient.

For my part, I would like to see more private confession.

We believe that the called and ordained servant of the Word has the authority to forgive sins given him by Christ in the keys.

We differ from Roman Catholics in that we do not believe any subsequent "satisfaction" is necessary though I am sure that most pastors would urge resititution where that was called for. Again though, this resititution would be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.

[MrJim]

Fascinating...I never knew this.

[Protoevangel]

Do Lutherans "do" confession like RCC?
Yes, Lutherans "do" confession, but it is not like the RCC.

Those Lutheran congregations who do still practice private confession, as our Confessions call for, do not "require" confession, but encourage it. Not all sins must be confessed, but only those that hang on our consciences.

Confession
How Christians should be taught to confess.

What is Confession?
Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.


What sins should we confess?
Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord's Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.


Which are these?
Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.


Pray, Propose to Me a Brief Form of Confession.

Answer.
You should speak to the confessor thus: Reverend and dear sir, I beseech you to hear my confession, and to pronounce forgiveness to me for God's sake.


Proceed!

I, a poor sinner, confess myself before God guilty of all sins; especially I confess before you that I am a man-servant, a maidservant, etc. But, alas, I serve my master unfaithfully; for in this and in that I have not done what they commanded me; I have provoked them, and caused them to curse, have been negligent and permitted damage to be done; have also been immodest in words and deeds, have quarreled with my equals, have grumbled and sworn at my mistress, etc. For all this I am sorry, and pray for grace; I want to do better.


[I]A master or mistress may say thus:
In particular I confess before you that I have not faithfully trained my children, domestics, and wife [family] for God's glory. I have cursed, set a bad example by rude words and deeds, have done my neighbor harm and spoken evil of him, have overcharged and given false ware and short measure.
And whatever else he has done against God's command and his station, etc.


But if any one does not find himself burdened with such or greater sins, he should not trouble himself or search for or invent other sins, and thereby make confession a torture, but mention one or two that he knows. Thus: In particular I confess that I once cursed; again, I once used improper words, I have once neglected this or that, etc. Let this suffice.
But if you know of none at all (which, however is scarcely possible), then mention none in particular, but receive the forgiveness upon your general confession which you make before God to the confessor.


Then shall the confessor say:

God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.


Furthermore:

Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?


Answer.
Yes, dear sir.


Then let him say:

As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.


But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture. This is to be merely a general form of confession for the unlearned.

[Edial]

Private confession is available to any Missouri Synod Lutheran. All he or she needs to do is make an appointment with his or her pastor.

As a rule though this is not done except in cases of "very serious sin". Otherwise the absolution given every Sunday morning is usually considered sufficient.

For my part, I would like to see more private confession.

We believe that the called and ordained servant of the Word has the authority to forgive sins given him by Christ in the keys.

We differ from Roman Catholics in that we do not believe any subsequent "satisfaction" is necessary though I am sure that most pastors would urge resititution where that was called for. Again though, this resititution would be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.
This is very, very interesting and timely for me personally.

One personal sin was truly bothering me.

I recently called my pastor who is one for 40 years or so.

I told him that the Bible states that we are to confess our sins to each other besides to God.

He came over one evening and I told him directly. His reaction was wonderful. :)

I did not have a question whether that sin is absolved or not. I had peace with God before that and after I told the pastor.
I just knew that it needs to be done.
I cannot keep it a secret.

And concerning restitution, I do believe in it.
(Maybe I do not know what the Catholics mean by it).

If I sinned against someone, I am urged to restitute that person for the damage.
If it is material, with money.
If it is lying, with confession.
If it is spiritual, with humility.

If this is what restitution is meant by the Catholics, it certainly seems a right thing to do.

Thanks,:)
Ed

[Chemnitz]

This is very, very interesting and timely for me personally.

One personal sin was truly bothering me.

I recently called my pastor who is one for 40 years or so.

I told him that the Bible states that we are to confess our sins to each other besides to God.

He came over one evening and I told him directly. His reaction was wonderful. :)

I did not have a question whether that sin is absolved or not. I had peace with God before that and after I told the pastor.
I just knew that it needs to be done.
I cannot keep it a secret.

And concerning restitution, I do believe in it.
(Maybe I do not know what the Catholics mean by it).

If I sinned against someone, I am urged to restitute that person for the damage.
If it is material, with money.
If it is lying, with confession.
If it is spiritual, with humility.

If this is what restitution is meant by the Catholics, it certainly seems a right thing to do.

Thanks,:)
Ed

Restitution is just paying back what is owed. It is the duty of every Christian regardless of whether the debt was sinfully or licitly incurred.

"Satisfaction" in the RC understanding is understood to be meritorious of Grace; it is a work the penitent does to earn God's favor.

The word relates to our standing before God's justice and His Law; the idea is that His justice must be "satisfied".

We don't demand this because Christ has already made full satisfaction on our behalf.

In my post I wrote:

Again though, this resititution would be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.

I left out a word, it should have read:

Again though, this resititution would not be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.

[Edial]

Restitution is just paying back what is owed. It is the duty of every Christian regardless of whether the debt was sinfully or licitly incurred.

"Satisfaction" in the RC understanding is understood to be meritorious of Grace; it is a work the penitent does to earn God's favor.

The word relates to our standing before God's justice and His Law; the idea is that His justice must be "satisfied".

We don't demand this because Christ has already made full satisfaction on our behalf.

In my post I wrote:

Again though, this resititution would be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.

I left out a word, it should have read:

Again though, this resititution would not be seen as meritorious but as the necessary response of a forgiven Christian to someone he has defrauded.
Oh yes. I understand that.

Here is what I do not understand.:)

If we defrauded someone and then confessed to God about it yet did not do anything to rectify our action, how would God forgive that?

His forgiveness is based on grace, yet how grace can be given when the defrauded one hurts?

I am not talking about salvation, but daily forgiveness of sins that also are based on grace.

If RC means that by "satisfaction", isn't it in line with much of the Scriptures even if we are talking about different concepts of satisfaction?

I mean, would God be satisfied with us in the plainest and the personal meaning of the word?

Thanks,
Ed

[Qoheleth]

We believe that the called and ordained servant of the Word has the authority to forgive sins given him by Christ in the keys.


Well said. And lets not forget Private Confession/Absolution is a sacrament.



From the Lutheran Confessions...


"Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament."(Apology XIII)

"For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounced upon individuals. Therefore it would be wicked to remove private absolution from the church. Neither do they understand what the remission of sins or the power of the keys is, if there are any who despise private absolution (Apology VI)




Luther...

"I will let no one take away private confession and would not exchange it for all the wealth of the world, for I know what strength and comfort it has given me."


Q

[LilLamb219]

If we defrauded someone and then confessed to God about it yet did not do anything to rectify our action, how would God forgive that?

God does forgive you for that sin of defrauding someone!

After you've been absolved, it's because of the Gospel that you would want to reconcile with your neighbor and make things right. It's not because God won't forgive you if you don't. It's because of forgiveness that we bear fruit and do good works. It's because of forgiveness that we want to benefit our neighbors and show love.

[ByzantineDixie]

Still looking to understand how and where repentence factors in. The rite listed by Dan doesn't say a word about repentence. What about "go and sin no more"? Is that a part of confession / absolution in the Lutheran church? Why or why not?

(Radidio...as I understand monergism in the Lutheran church, this would apply to justification not sanctification which is the side of the fence where I believe my query lands but I could be wrong. The Lutheran confessions suggest that there is some level of synergism in sanctification, right?)

[Qoheleth]

Still looking to understand how and where repentence factors in. The rite listed by Dan doesn't say a word about repentence. What about "go and sin no more"? Is that a part of confession / absolution in the Lutheran church? Why or why not?



Below is an older Lutheran form of absolution that may address your concern better




"The almighty God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ would be gracious and merciful to you. He wants to forgive you all your sins, and this because his dear Son Jesus Christ has suffered for them and died for them. In the name of that same Jesus Christ, because he has mandated me to do this, in the power of his words where he said: 'Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven,' I say to you that all your sins are forgiven. They cannot hold you captive. They are altogether forgiven you as abundantly and completely as was won for you by Jesus Christ through his suffering and death, and which he commanded to be proclaimed in all the world through the Gospel, and this is now said to you, to comfort and strengthen you, as I now speak this to you in the name of the Lord Christ, for you to receive it gladly, setting your conscience at peace, as with a faith that cannot be shaken, your sins are surely forgiven you, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Go forth in peace."


Q

[Protoevangel]

Still looking to understand how and where repentence factors in. The rite listed by Dan doesn't say a word about repentence. What about "go and sin no more"? Is that a part of confession / absolution in the Lutheran church? Why or why not?
Sorry Rose, my previous answer was for our new friend Meno. I'll try to attend to your question now.

Repentance is not properly part of Confession, but is prior to the same. We do not believe that Confession/Absolution confers forgiveness apart from conversion and repentance, but is instead, the Sacramental culmination, whereby the fallen but repentant are assured of the forgiveness of God through the Word spoken by the Pastor. "Go and sin no more" is indeed right, true and proper, but is an admonition seperate from, and not prior to, the act of forgiveness.

Law smites the conscience (Repentance)
Gospel assures of forgiveness (Sacrament of Absolution/Faith)
The one with this faith will do good works, including proper restitution.

Article XI: Of Confession. Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.

Article XII: Of Repentance. Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these two parts: One is contrition, that is, terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ's sake, sins are forgiven, comforts the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

Article VI: Of New Obedience.
Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God's will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17, 10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

HTH

[Edial]

God does forgive you for that sin of defrauding someone!

After you've been absolved, it's because of the Gospel that you would want to reconcile with your neighbor and make things right. It's not because God won't forgive you if you don't. It's because of forgiveness that we bear fruit and do good works. It's because of forgiveness that we want to benefit our neighbors and show love.
I do not think so.

Look at this text concerning God's forgiveness of the huge debt and then his consequent reinstallment of his wrath upon the debtor when he did not forgive his brother in the similar context.

Also, God's forgiveness did not cause His debtor to be naturally benevolent to his brother. And therefore, His wrath was re-instated.

Also, note the last verse.

MT 18:22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. n
MT 18:23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents n was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
MT 18:26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
MT 18:28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. n He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
MT 18:29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
MT 18:30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
MT 18:32 "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
MT 18:35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

Law and Gospel, Ed, Law and Gospel. For those who don't do right, we of course give them law, for those in despair, we give them Gospel. We are still human and will mess up and sometimes have selfish motives. But, the fact is, that our good works come through because of the Gospel.

Edited to add: Law and Gospel will always flow through our lives and the man in the text above received the Law because of his actions; and rightly so. While here on this earth, the Law tells us how to love our neighbors.

[LilLamb219]

Still looking to understand how and where repentence factors in.

You were once Lutheran, so you know that repentance consists of two parts; contrition and faith. Contrition comes about because the Law has done its job and faith comes about because the Gospel doing its job. Repentance does have its narrow and wide sense in scriptures though.

Repentance factors in confession/absolution in that because of the "contrition" of repentance, one seeks out to confess and because of "faith" in repentance one knows that in absolution he/she is forgiven.

[Edial]

Law and Gospel, Ed, Law and Gospel. For those who don't do right, we of course give them law, for those in despair, we give them Gospel. We are still human and will mess up and sometimes have selfish motives. But, the fact is, that our good works come through because of the Gospel.

Edited to add: Law and Gospel will always flow through our lives and the man in the text above received the Law because of his actions; and rightly so. While here on this earth, the Law tells us how to love our neighbors.
I do not disagree with that at all.:)

What I am saying is that there unfortunately are many believers that do not forgive their brothers (oe do not restitute).

And God cannot forgive them in the context of the similar sins against him.
The context of the Lord's Prayer presents this essense.

Now, this does not affect their salvation, just their personal relationship with God, even if they are saved due to Christ.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

What I am saying is that there unfortunately are many believers that do not forgive their brothers (oe do not restitute).

And God cannot forgive them in the context of the similar sins against him.
The context of the Lord's Prayer presents this essense.

Now, this does not affect their salvation, just their personal relationship with God, even if they are saved due to Christ.

You're right that there are people who won't forgive their brothers. But I don't agree that God doesn't forgive them. I am so glad that I don't have to rely on what I do or don't do to earn God's forgiveness and if I don't forgive my brother, I'm grateful that God forgives me anyway. It's God's forgiveness that will turn me to seeing that I should forgive my brother whether it's immediate or somewhere down the line.

[Edial]

You're right that there are people who won't forgive their brothers. But I don't agree that God doesn't forgive them. I am so glad that I don't have to rely on what I do or don't do to earn God's forgiveness and if I don't forgive my brother, I'm grateful that God forgives me anyway. It's God's forgiveness that will turn me to seeing that I should forgive my brother whether it's immediate or somewhere down the line.
How do you explain then the Matthew 18 text that I presented above where the Lord restates wrath after the debtor did nor forgive his "brother" when he owed him and the Lord's Prayer?

MT 6:12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
MT 6:13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. '
MT 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Our salvation might not be affected, but our relationship with the Lord appears to be.

Now, I am not talking about the one that does not want to be forgiven.
I am talking about the one that asked for forgiveness.

And in Matthew 18 it states that the forgiveness must be from heart, not just words.

Thanks,
Ed

[ByzantineDixie]

You were once Lutheran, so you know that repentance consists of two parts; contrition and faith. Contrition comes about because the Law has done its job and faith comes about because the Gospel doing its job. Repentance does have its narrow and wide sense in scriptures though.

Repentance factors in confession/absolution in that because of the "contrition" of repentance, one seeks out to confess and because of "faith" in repentance one knows that in absolution he/she is forgiven.

Actually my understanding of repentance (even as a Lutheran) was both contrition and a turning away from the sinful behavior. The blog article didn't talk about that aspect of repentance (turning away) which I always thought was foundational...and which is why I asked. In Lutheran parlance I can see the Law smiting and causing contrition...I can't so much see it addressing the second aspect of repentance...the turning away. Maybe third use does this. I don't know. Just seemed missing. (Now when I took advantage of private confession with my Lutheran pastor, before absolution he did discuss with me ways that might help to keep from repeating a certain sin...so it wasn't missing from my experience but heck I was a salt water Lutheran...my experience may have been tainted by brine.)

[JVAC]

Actually my understanding of repentance (even as a Lutheran) was both contrition and a turning away from the sinful behavior.

The "turning away" is one of the aspects of contrition. Contrition means that your conscience was smote and you are now feeling bad for what you have done. Part of feeling bad is resolving to not comit the sin again (yet maybe acknowledging the fact that you might). However the contrition aspect is one of the most important aspects in confession.

Even it is the contrition aspect that makes a sin mortal or venial. In reformation times the big debate between RC's and Lutherans on this issue was 2parts or 3parts: Contrition and Faith or Contrition, Confession and Faith. Unfortunately, they failed to realize that they were saying the same thing. Ultimately, back in the day, RC and Lutherans agreed on it all except the making of the Sacrament "mandatory", but even Melanchton was willing to concede to the papists on this issue.

-James

[LilLamb219]

How do you explain then the Matthew 18 text that I presented above where the Lord restates wrath after the debtor did nor forgive his "brother" when he owed him and the Lord's Prayer?

What sort of "faith" did that man show when he couldn't go out and treat others as he had been treated? Think of it that way, Ed. Repentance consists of contrition and faith. Was the contrition the man showed genuine or did he just want to get out of the debt and that was it?

[LilLamb219]

I can't so much see it addressing the second aspect of repentance...the turning away.

If we want to stop our sins, sometimes it's something WE have no control over since our sinful nature can be so strong. There are sins that I really, really want to get away from, but I'm having great difficulty and so I rely that the Holy Spirit will work in me by God's Word and through that new creature he has created so that I will stop. But until then, I see myself in a struggle that Paul speaks of in the NT.

It's God's Word that turns us away and it's His Word that turns us to Him. Law and Gospel, contrition and faith, all a part of repentance.

[C.F.W. Walther]

God knows our heart and knows us better than we do. We say that we want forgivness and that we won't do it again and he knows better. THat's why we sin daily. He knows that we love him but that we CAN"T keep the law so we have his grace to cover that mess. We think that we will get better and bettew with age but God knows we are own worst enemy so he gives us the scapegoat which is Christ. He tells the woman at the well "THy sins are forgiven, go and sin no more". God knows what will happen with his command for us to do the same. We will fail in some asspects. Nothing like a good dose of reality when we get on our sanctimonious high horse and think that just becasue we are Christian we are above all this.

[Edial]

God knows our heart and knows us better than we do. We say that we want forgivness and that we won't do it again and he knows better. THat's why we sin daily. He knows that we love him but that we CAN"T keep the law so we have his grace to cover that mess. We think that we will get better and bettew with age but God knows we are own worst enemy so he gives us the scapegoat which is Christ. He tells the woman at the well "THy sins are forgiven, go and sin no more". God knows what will happen with his command for us to do the same. We will fail in some asspects. Nothing like a good dose of reality when we get on our sanctimonious high horse and think that just becasue we are Christian we are above all this.
All this is true.
We have shifted a bit (a significant bit) from what we talked about.

It is not the question whether we will sin again even when we promise that we will not.

It is the question whether we claim we are forgiven by God, yet are not making a restitution to the brother whom we sinned against.
It is just a lip service, as if God will forgive when we ask for forgiveness, yet do not do the same to others in similar situations.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

But it seems the way you're wording it that forgiveness has to be earned by us in some way and that's not true. Christ earned all that was needed for forgiveness.

[Edial]

But it seems the way you're wording it that forgiveness has to be earned by us in some way and that's not true. Christ earned all that was needed for forgiveness.
LilLamb219, I cannot help the way you see things.
Sometimes we interpret it the way we are partial to. Just read what I worded in my posts.

Matthew 18 and the Lord's Prayer present we will not be forgiven by Father unless we forgive others in that same area of sin.

If you agree with that - OK.

If not, why do you say that it seems I am saying something else, when I clearly stated in my post that this is not a matter of salvation but that of daily sins and the relationship or fellowship with.

Also, when you quote out of position in the post and quote just a partial post, does that mean that you do not read the rest?

Sorry if I sound a bit frustrated, but somehow I am, ... for no apparent reason.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

The Gospel changes us and makes us want to forgive others as we have been forgiven. Sometimes we don't always want to forgive but that is because of our selfish, sinful nature. Once the Gospel gets through to us though, there is a change of heart. But, even if I died tomorrow without having a chance to forgive that one person left on my list, God still forgives me because all my sins (even the one of not forgiving my neighbor) have been nailed to the cross and I put my trust in that heartily!


THE FIFTH PETITION

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

What does this mean?

We ask in this prayer that our Father in heaven would not hold our sins against us and because of them refuse to hear our prayer.

And we pray that God would give us everything by grace, for we sin every day and deserve nothing but punishment.

So we on our part will heartily forgive and gladly do good to those who sin against us.

From the LCMS FAQ:
Q. Will God forgive me of my sins if I haven't forgiven others?
A. The question you have raised often arises in connection with the words spoken by Jesus in the context of the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:14), "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
In view of Scripture's wider teaching concerning forgiveness, it seems proper to understand Jesus' point in Matthew 6:14 to be that the stubborn, persistent refusal to forgive others is evidence of a blinded and hardened heart which lacks a real understanding of and faith in God's forgiveness in Christ. What Jesus is doing here, therefore, is issuing a strong warning to us to "search our hearts" to see if we really understand and accept the Gospel and its practical implications for our lives. If we say, "I want God to forgive me, but I refuse to forgive those who sin against me," we really don't know what "forgiveness" and "faith in Jesus" are all about. We cannot expect God to "forgive" us if the attitude of our heart reveals that we have no real understanding of or faith in his undeserved grace in Christ Jesus. Anyone who truly understands the true nature God's grace and forgiveness in Christ and puts his or her trust in that forgiveness will desire and seek to extend that forgiveness to others. God's forgiveness is not a "reward" for our forgiving others, but once we receive it in true faith and gratitude it is impossible not to want to share it with others.

[LilLamb219]

Also, when you quote out of position in the post and quote just a partial post, does that mean that you do not read the rest?

No. It's just that I don't like wasting space with a total recopy and paste and the part I copy and paste is the portion that I am making a comment on specifically.

[LilLamb219]

If not, why do you say that it seems I am saying something else, when I clearly stated in my post that this is not a matter of salvation but that of daily sins and the relationship or fellowship with.

I came back to add this...you first say something concerning forgiveness and then state something else concerning salvation, but forgiveness and salvation are equal. We are forgiven. We are saved. Same thing.

It's God's forgiveness that is saving us (and his love, mercy, compassion, etc) and if we don't believe we're forgiven, then where does that lead us??????

[Edial]

I came back to add this...you first say something concerning forgiveness and then state something else concerning salvation, but forgiveness and salvation are equal. We are forgiven. We are saved. Same thing.

It's God's forgiveness that is saving us (and his love, mercy, compassion, etc) and if we don't believe we're forgiven, then where does that lead us??????
Let's go back again.
Are you saying that there no belivers that do not forgive those that asked them for forgiveness?

If there are such believers, are you saying that the Lord will forgive them this?

Now, God forgives us unto salvation, since Christ is removed all sins.

This is our daily, everyday life I am talking about. And the Bible is talking extensively about our daily behavior.
Are you saying that if we keep on doing this and that, which is against God's will our good fellowship with him will continue and he'll keep on smiling on us?

[LilLamb219]

Are you saying that if we keep on doing this and that, which is against God's will our good fellowship with him will continue and he'll keep on smiling on us?

The Law says no but the Gospel says yes. If you're stubborn and want to persist in not forgiving your neighbor, you need to hear the Law that tells you you are lacking faith in God's grace in order for change to happen in you. If you are in despair about the situation, the Gospel covers you and says, yes, you are forgiven. Read the FAQ I quoted above once again as it pretty much says the same thing.

[Edial]

The Law says no but the Gospel says yes. If you're stubborn and want to persist in not forgiving your neighbor, you need to hear the Law that tells you you are lacking faith in God's grace in order for change to happen in you. If you are in despair about the situation, the Gospel covers you and says, yes, you are forgiven. Read the FAQ I quoted above once again as it pretty much says the same thing.
What-Are-You-Saying?

Are you saying that God in the NT will keep on smiling on us while we are sinning? (Since once again you quoted just a tidbit of my post).

Are-You-Serious?

[LilLamb219]

The Law says God will not smile upon us when we sin. The Gospel says that because we are covered in Christ's righteousness that He does smile upon us. It's Law and Gospel, Ed. Each have their own purpose. Again, if someone is stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive his neighbor, it is only right to give him the law. But if someone is in despair and worried if God has forgiven him, the merciful thing to do is tell him that yes, God forgives him.

I mean, I can go through tons of scenerios for you, but it all comes down to Law and Gospel and proper application of each according to what is going on. This is why on most message boards when someone asks a question, a reply most of the time will be "Why do you ask?" It's because the person replying usually sees things in terms of Law/Gospel and will reply accordingly.

[Edial]

The Law says God will not smile upon us when we sin. The Gospel says that because we are covered in Christ's righteousness that He does smile upon us. It's Law and Gospel, Ed. Each have their own purpose. Again, if someone is stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive his neighbor, it is only right to give him the law. But if someone is in despair and worried if God has forgiven him, the merciful thing to do is tell him that yes, God forgives him.

I mean, I can go through tons of scenerios for you, but it all comes down to Law and Gospel and proper application of each according to what is going on. This is why on most message boards when someone asks a question, a reply most of the time will be "Why do you ask?" It's because the person replying usually sees things in terms of Law/Gospel and will reply accordingly.
Stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive the neighbor?

Do you see stubborness as an addiction that could be excused?

Why then forgive at all? What is this?

What you learned is not correct.

[SPALATIN]

At Concordia Theological Seminary they do occasionally put in the bulletins that Private Confession is available to those who seek it. I am not privy to the statistics of those who have made use of it though.

[LilLamb219]

Stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive the neighbor?

Do you see stubborness as an addiction that could be excused?

Why then forgive at all? What is this?

What you learned is not correct.


What do you mean by "why forgive at all? what is this?" Are you asking why should we forgive our neighbor at all? First off, because it benefits our neighbor, secondly it's loving and thirdly it's because God's will is good and holy and He wants us to forgive.

What do you mean by what I learned is not correct? Do you disagree with Law and Gospel and their uses?

[Edial]

What do you mean by "why forgive at all? what is this?" Are you asking why should we forgive our neighbor at all? First off, because it benefits our neighbor, secondly it's loving and thirdly it's because God's will is good and holy and He wants us to forgive.

What do you mean by what I learned is not correct? Do you disagree with Law and Gospel and their uses?
My first part of the quote -
Stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive the neighbor?

Do you see stubborness as an addiction that could be excused?

Next, are you saying that due to the grace of the gospel believers are obedient and forgive others just because God told them to?

It does not work that way at all. :)
Majority of the NT is written to disobedient Christians of whom we lead the pack.

If we dosobey due to stubborness, God certainly does not smile at us, not according to Jesus Christ at least.
If we disobey due to addiction or weakness, it is another matter.

But due to stubborness? God will smile at us?
Discipline is coming up, not smiles.

If what I described is what you are saying, you learned an incorrect theology.

[DaRev]

God does not smile on any sin, whether by stubborness or addiction or weakness or whatever.
What God smiles on are those who are forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. That word which we hear is both Law and Gospel. The Law is meant to tear us down, to accuse, sentence, and execute us. The word of the Gospel tells us that on account of Christ, we are forgiven. This Good News moves in us the Holy Spirit, bringing us to contrition and repentance. The product of these is obedience to God's word.
The one who does not repent and therefore obey is going against the word of God. Repentance is not present so forgiveness is also not present. This is the one who still needs to hear the Law.

What LilLamb has posted is correct.


DaRev

[Chemnitz]

It is so difficult for us to remember that, DaRev...or at least, I know that it is difficult for me anyway.

That good works are the fruit of God's gracious work in us and not the cause of them is a precious, liberating truth of Scripture.

Many Churches and many Christians (some of them going by the name "Lutheran" and one of them going by my name all too often), while paying lip service to Sola Fide, have screwed this up terribly.

[LilLamb219]

What LilLamb has posted is correct.

Whew. :)

Actually, it's a relief in that, if my Law and Gospel distinction was incorrect, then that would tear apart Objective Justification and I really have to say that OJ is a huge assurance for my faith. In times of my own doubts and struggles, Objective Justification has really uplifted me, humbled me and strengthened me in faith.

[LilLamb219]

God does not smile on any sin, whether by stubborness or addiction or weakness or whatever.
What God smiles on are those who are forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. That word which we hear is both Law and Gospel. The Law is meant to tear us down, to accuse, sentence, and execute us. The word of the Gospel tells us that on account of Christ, we are forgiven. This Good News moves in us the Holy Spirit, bringing us to contrition and repentance. The product of these is obedience to God's word.
The one who does not repent and therefore obey is going against the word of God. Repentance is not present so forgiveness is also not present. This is the one who still needs to hear the Law.

Awesome post!! What I've been trying to say in numerous postings, you sum it up so well in just 3 brief paragraphs. That's why you're Da Rev and I'm just a mom who comes online LOL

[SPALATIN]

My first part of the quote -
Stuck in the sin of not wanting to forgive the neighbor?

Do you see stubborness as an addiction that could be excused?

Next, are you saying that due to the grace of the gospel believers are obedient and forgive others just because God told them to?

It does not work that way at all. :)
Majority of the NT is written to disobedient Christians of whom we lead the pack.

If we dosobey due to stubborness, God certainly does not smile at us, not according to Jesus Christ at least.
If we disobey due to addiction or weakness, it is another matter.

But due to stubborness? God will smile at us?
Discipline is coming up, not smiles.

If what I described is what you are saying, you learned an incorrect theology.

I don't think that is what she was saying. I think you read it wrong.

[Edial]

God does not smile on any sin, whether by stubborness or addiction or weakness or whatever.
What God smiles on are those who are forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. That word which we hear is both Law and Gospel. The Law is meant to tear us down, to accuse, sentence, and execute us. The word of the Gospel tells us that on account of Christ, we are forgiven. This Good News moves in us the Holy Spirit, bringing us to contrition and repentance. The product of these is obedience to God's word.
The one who does not repent and therefore obey is going against the word of God. Repentance is not present so forgiveness is also not present. This is the one who still needs to hear the Law.

What LilLamb has posted is correct.


DaRev
I understand that.

Are you saying that God is still smiling at the believers that sin despite of their willful sins (and I do separate willful from ignorant)?
Or are you saying that the believers that sin are not believers?

Let's try developing it from this point on.

[Edial]

I don't think that is what she was saying. I think you read it wrong.
Then help us out.

There certainly a disconnect that is going on.

[Edial]

Whew. :)

Actually, it's a relief in that, if my Law and Gospel distinction was incorrect, then that would tear apart Objective Justification and I really have to say that OJ is a huge assurance for my faith. In times of my own doubts and struggles, Objective Justification has really uplifted me, humbled me and strengthened me in faith.
Is that what the concern was?

I was not doing a theological exercise, but an applicational one.

Objective Justification is Objective Justification.
There is no way going around that. Because of Christ we are saved. Period. I thought I tried separating the two.

What I am talking about is God's personal fellowship with is outside of Objective Justification.
The heart of God. What does he personally want?

Does this make sense?

If it does, I am going to ask the same questions.

But I think DaRev and SPALATIN might take this.

Thanks for the conversation.

Ed

[Edial]

Awesome post!! What I've been trying to say in numerous postings, you sum it up so well in just 3 brief paragraphs. That's why you're Da Rev and I'm just a mom who comes online LOL
LilLamb219. The fact that you an "online mom" changes your unique value very little. DaRev and SPALATIN and Marv and Q and Jim and Dan and LutherNut and Radidio and Melethiel and ctay and Chemnitz and ByzantineDixie and KEPLER and Nordic/Iowa/Redneck Luteran, and Tetzel and RayJGentry and all others are unique in their own way.
That uniqeness is visible not through knowledge, but a heart of a fighter who is in Christ.:)

My objective is not to overwhelm, but to engage.
It is not to win, but to unite.

What you do is priceless.

And, if it is important to me in my inadequate and depraved mentality that I see clearly through faith, can you imagine how it is important to God who sees LilLamb219 for who you are according to HIS plan?

Your actions of an "online mom" pale my actions in many ways.
How?
Since the true uniqueness is visible only to God (like a fingerprint), our own comparison to each other is depressing to us or flattering, a lose lose situation.

Because of our own comparison to each other we take our eyes away from God and his plan for our predesigned uniqueness ... and we fall.

Once we begin looking at each other, we begin reflecting on own inadequacies or "strenghts" and fall into the following model of sin.
ISA 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
...

If we do not forget that each of us is the unique "fingerprint of God" we win in all, since what belongs to God is God's and what God adopted is OF God.

Thanks for the conversation.
Ed

[RayJGentry]

I think this is a very interesting topic to get in to. I think the topic of forgiveness and forgiving others is rather unique in it's application to our faith and our relationship with God.

In this situation we're dealing with the forgiveness of others. God has forgiven each and every one of us. We are expected to forgive others. In this situation we are asked to do the same thing for others that God has done for us. Because of this, I think it makes it very different from other things we consider Law. I think this all deeply instrumental to an individuals faith.

Many of the things that we consider Law are things God commands us to do for Him or for someone else or are a certain way to act that is pleasing to Him. I think that this is so important to God (being in the Lord's prayer and as cited earlier, the Mt 6:14 verse) because it is not an ACT that reflects our faith or relationship with him, but and ACTUAL REFLECTION of God through us. I believe God considers this to be one of the most instrumental aspects of our relationship with him.

Faith and Forgiveness are tied together so very closely. Without genuine faith the forgiveness we yearn for from God is nearly absent. Not in the fact that it isn't there from God, but if I don't truly believe in this forgiveness, I cannot completely trust in it. A Christian who cannot forgive somone who has sinned against him/her casts doubt and incenserity on the forgiveness they have been given.

I think this happens because forgiveness is forgiveness. It is the same whether from God or from another. Obviously my forgiveness of somones total sins will not grant them salvation, but my ability to forgive someone who has sinned against me, reflects my trust and faith in God to be able to forgive my sins against Him.

This is kind of a rough post (as i know we all have). i'm used to discussing things like this and bouncing them back and forth off people a lot faster than forums provide. so, we'll consider this the start of my odd/deranged thought processes and go from here :D God bless you all. Our discussion and debate is wonderful in this forum.

[MORTANIUS]

The Lutheran Church's that do hold Private Confession do so for guidance and not toward a form of absolution rendered by the Priest.

ByzantineDixie, you are Orthodox and unlike the Roman Catholics you believe that the Priest reads a prayer for you, but also provides spiritual guidance to help you against those sins that plague you.

For us Lutherans, it is much like how the Orthodox have spiritual guidance given.

How do we view Confession? Jesus Christ is our intercessor as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.

I have heard many examples used to explain why both Roman Catholics and Orthodox are required to confess before a Priest and that forgiveness is not complete until the Priest prays over the repentant sinner, but I'd like to state that for us Lutherans, we confess directly to our Lord Jesus Christ and any power the clerical position holds, is based on spiritual guidance and comfort.

There is more to it than this but I hope it helps.

[LutherNut]

The Lutheran Church's that do hold Private Confession do so for guidance and not toward a form of absolution rendered by the Priest.

I know that in the ELCA the clergy do not absolve but only announce forgiveness.

In the LCMS, the pastors speak on the authority of Christ when they absolve a penitent. The private confession and absolution is done not just for guidance (at least not in LCMS) but for comfort and assurance that the penitent sinners sins are forgiven and that he/she is comforted by the very words of Jesus spoken to him/her. The repentant sinner is truly absolved. The absolution comes from Christ Himself.

[RayJGentry]

i believe that in the ELCA, anyone can absolve sins as a pastor would in other denoms. it's the ELCA's whole priesthood of all believers..that a pastor is simply called to that role, not elevated above others. however, i have yet to see any luther pastor allow a lay person to perform a rite of absolution. but you are correct that in our corporate absolution the pastor simply reminds the memeber what Christ has said and doesn't assume any authority to absolve anyone based on their role as pastor, just as a fellow Christian.

[ByzantineDixie]

i believe that in the ELCA, anyone can absolve sins as a pastor would in other denoms. it's the ELCA's whole priesthood of all believers..that a pastor is simply called to that role, not elevated above others.

I know some LCMS Lutherans would cringe at this but when I was taking LCMS lay ministry instruction I was trained to hear confession and offer absolution. The primary context of this training was in caregiving...visiting shut-ins, hospital visits, folks who hadn't been to church in months. And I was never instructed NOT to do this...even though I am a woman. If they are teaching this in the Lay Ministry certification / degree program I am guessing lay absolution is fairly common in the LCMS as well.

[LilLamb219]

RayJGentry, the LCMS does not elevate its pastors and when absolution is said it is done in the stead and by the command of our Lord. I'm sure a pastor here on the board can give you the proper wording.

The absolution is actually giving the forgiveness won at the cross. It's not just saying it, but actually giving it. How? Because Christ gave the keys to the Church and Christ also set up the Office of Holy Ministry.

It's not just the Pastor saying the words, it's actually God's Word at work and by Christ's authority.

[RayJGentry]

i wasn't trying to speak against the other denominations. rather, i was just laying out how the ELCA does it. i realize that the priesthood of all believers is something that is important through all the Lutheran Denoms, but i just wanted to put out what the ELCA's stance on it. i wasn't saying it was contrary or anything to the LCMS or WELS

[DaRev]

I know some LCMS Lutherans would cringe at this but when I was taking LCMS lay ministry instruction I was trained to hear confession and offer absolution. The primary context of this training was in caregiving...visiting shut-ins, hospital visits, folks who hadn't been to church in months. And I was never instructed NOT to do this...even though I am a woman. If they are teaching this in the Lay Ministry certification / degree program I am guessing lay absolution is fairly common in the LCMS as well.

This is yet another example of the way the LCMS is heading... and it's not good.

The absolving of sins is done "in the stead and by the command of Christ" which is a role of the Office of the Holy Ministry. Not only shouldn't the laity be hearing private confession (because they have taken no vow not to disclose such) but they have no authority to absolve as per the Office of the Keys. The one who is rightly called has the authority and the responsibility to do that. And as an act of the OHM it should not be done by a woman.

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

[DaRev]

i wasn't trying to speak against the other denominations. rather, i was just laying out how the ELCA does it. i realize that the priesthood of all believers is something that is important through all the Lutheran Denoms, but i just wanted to put out what the ELCA's stance on it. i wasn't saying it was contrary or anything to the LCMS or WELS

The Priesthood of all Believers and the Office of the Holy Ministry are two different things. The POAB simply means that we as believers in Christ do not have to go to a mediator to offer our sacrifices of prayer, praise, thanksgiving, confessions, etc. to God, but rather we can go directly to Him ourselves. The POAB does not mean that any believer in Christ has the authority to do Word and Sacrament ministry.

The OHM is that office instituted by Christ by which one who is rightly called and ordained into that office carries out the functions of the Office of the Keys and administers the Word and Sacrament ministry of the Church. God in His word set very distinct qualifications for the one who is called into this office.

[RayJGentry]

well for the ELCA that's how they take it. i can administer any sacrament. however, i should only do it if a ordained minister is not present. but the ELCA holds that the sacraments and all instructions God has given us can be done by anyone. i do see the implications of it for private confession and the ELCA does not encourage it so that hopefully they aren't abused. it's an interesting difference to say the least