Mercy

[Mary of Bethany]

Hello, TC'ers! :wave:

I've never been a Lutheran, nor have I ever played one on TV, so please pardon my ignorance.

I've learned a lot about Lutheranism from lurking in your forum, but I'm still confused about some aspects of Lutheran belief, especially as regards salvation. I know you are not to be lumped in with many Protestants who believe in OSAS or in "believer's baptism" or a myriad of other things I used to believe in as a Baptist. So my question is prompted by the thread on baptism.

Would a Lutheran say that, ultimately, the only absolutely necessary thing for salvation is God's mercy?

Thanks for your responses!

Mary

[Melethiel]

nor have I ever played one on TV

LOL ^_^

[ricg]

I am speaking from the top of my head and cannot remember the question ever having been so put, but at the risk of being hypertechnical, I think we'd say that what is absolutely necessary is God's grace. Mercy implies forebearance respecting the guilt of sin. We have more: God has granted us forgiveness of sin based on satisfaction of the debt owed by a blood sacrifice of His own Son. Perhaps mercy moved Him to impart grace, but we are saved, at least in an objective sense, by grace alone.

Does that sound right to others?

[Chemnitz]

Hello, TC'ers! :wave:

I've never been a Lutheran, nor have I ever played one on TV, so please pardon my ignorance.

I've learned a lot about Lutheranism from lurking in your forum, but I'm still confused about some aspects of Lutheran belief, especially as regards salvation. I know you are not to be lumped in with many Protestants who believe in OSAS or in "believer's baptism" or a myriad of other things I used to believe in as a Baptist. So my question is prompted by the thread on baptism.

Would a Lutheran say that, ultimately, the only absolutely necessary thing for salvation is God's mercy?

Thanks for your responses!

Mary

I think Ricq has it right...

The Grace of God...and lest there be any doubt, we understand grace to be the unmerited and unmeritable favor of God toward sinners.

[Jim47]

Faith is Jesus as our Savior is the only thing that saves. We are baptized into Christ because we believe His words and He told us to be baptized. When we are baptized we put on Christ, and He sends us His Holy Spirit to create faith in our hearts. So then it is possible for even infants to believe, as God's power and gifts span all human weakness and inability. Are you thinking that is not right? If so, then all infants that die early in life would be condemmed to hell, just as would all the people who are born mentally retarded.

Is baptizim reuired for salavation? Scripture tells us to be baptized, why should we doubt it? It is for God to decide who will be saved, but it is our duty to obey Him. Would you neglect feeding your soul with God's Word? Why should we neglect to follow Jesus cammand to be baptized. Again, it is for God to decide.

I will post a few scriptures that pertain to what I said.

Ac 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Ac 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
Ac 16:32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
Ac 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I would post more but my post is already too long. :D

As for your comment:

I've never been a Lutheran, nor have I ever played one on TV, so please pardon my ignorance.

Maybe you should consider at least one of these options, I'll leave you to figure out which one. :thumbsup:

[Mary of Bethany]

I would post more but my post is already too long. :D

As for your comment:



Maybe you should consider at least one of these options, I'll leave you to figure out which one. :thumbsup:


:D Thanks very much for the suggestion, but believe me, I'm a very happy Orthodox Christian!

It's hard for me to really ask a clear question, since my knowledge is so vague about this - let me try this. Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin? And if so, does that mean that only someone who has been baptized could be saved?

Thanks for your patience with my questions. :)

Mary

P.S. Just to be clear, I'm only asking for my own edification. I've read a lot about (or experienced) other denoms, but I realize that I don't know much about Lutheran Christianity.

[Chemnitz]

Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin?

Yes.

And if so, does that mean that only someone who has been baptized could be saved?

No.

[Mary of Bethany]

Thanks. That really does help, believe it or not. I wasn't sure what the doctrine of total depravity would allow for.

Mary

[DaRev]

Sola Gratia
Sola Fides
Sola Christus

We are saved by Grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone.

While Baptism does save us (as a Means of Grace) and is necessary for salvation, we don't hold that it is absolutely necessary for salvation.

[JVAC]

One important thing to acknowledge is the eternity of salvation:

We have been saved, through the Grace of God by his action and merit.

We are being saved, living our lives as saved children and participants in the Kingdom of God and dependent on the Grace of God to sustain us therein.

We will be saved, from judgement.

Salvation is all time and even may be understood in many ways. However, ultimately it all comes down to God's great love for His creation.

-James

[Mary of Bethany]

I'll give a big "Amen" to what you said above, James.

Mary

[Edial]

Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin?
No.
Total depravity in the context of Calvinism indicates that one cannot understand the Gospel.
Yet Christ told all to repent expecting them to understand it.

Man cannot save himself, yet he certainly has some things "left over" from his image of God.

And if so, does that mean that only someone who has been baptized could be saved?
Not at all.

Thief on the cross comes to mind as one example.
People on deathbeds as another.

Thanks,
Ed [/quote]

[Melethiel]

Ed, Lutherans do believe in total depravity.

[Mary of Bethany]

Man cannot save himself, yet he certainly has some things "left over" from his image of God.

This is interesting, ed, because this is the Orthodox understanding. We believe that even after the Fall, men still are "icons", bearing the image of the Creator.

Just FYI. :)

Mary

[Edial]

This is interesting, ed, because this is the Orthodox understanding. We believe that even after the Fall, men still are "icons", bearing the image of the Creator.

Just FYI. :)

Mary
The image of God is never completely erased. :)

We are completely depraved (complete depravity means depraved, corrupted in each area, yet not totally).

If we would not bear God's image any longer, there would be nothing to save. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Ed, Lutherans do believe in total depravity.
Define total depravity then see my post.

[Qoheleth]

Ed, Lutherans do believe in total depravity.


In the sense that no one can save themselves, ok.

But not in the usual Refomed sense.


Q

[Protoevangel]

Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin?
No.
This is a false statement.

Total depravity in the context of Calvinism indicates that one cannot understand the Gospel.
Mary did not ask about Calvinism, or any other collection of errors, she asked "Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin?" She asked this in a Lutheran forum, and I presume, expected a Lutheran answer.

The correct answer is "Yes".

Total depravity does not mean that people are as bad as possible, it does not mean that there is nothing "left over" from his image of God. What it does mean, is that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and that no mere refinement of natural capacities can correct this condition. As a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

[Chemnitz]

Total depravity does not mean that people are as bad as possible, it does not mean that there is nothing "left over" from his image of God. What it does mean, is that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and that no mere refinement of natural capacities can correct this condition. As a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

Very well said.

[Protoevangel]

And if so, does that mean that only someone who has been baptized could be saved?
Hi Mary, :wave:

Chemnitz answered this well, but just to clarify: Lutherans do teach that Baptism is necessary to Salvation. However, for one who is unable to be Baptised (i.e. thief on the Cross, deathbed conversion, etc.), this is no concern, for Baptism is God's work, not mans.

Article IX of the Augsburg confession. "Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God..." The Apology states the same thing, "The Ninth Article has been approved, in which we confess that Baptism is necessary to salvation."

From the LCMS website (http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2607):
"Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins."


One way I have heard this distintion is, Baptizm is necessary, but not absolutely necessary. Me myself, I would call it absolutely necessary, because God's command and promise cannot be despised. But always, there must be the understanding that for the one who genuinly is unable, God never condemns True Faith.

[Qoheleth]

he image of God is never completely erased.

We are completely depraved (complete depravity means depraved, corrupted in each area, yet not totally).

If we would not bear God's image any longer, there would be nothing to save



Well, Ed, I agree with you here.

I believe it is important to note that when you study Article I of the FC, you will see some very careful distinctions made. "Even after the fall this nature still is and remains a creature of God." And so there is a huge distinction between human nature, which is good and God's handiwork, and the corruption that inheres in that nature after the fall through original sin. The sin is distinguished from the good creation of God. If my body has a fever, it HAS a fever but is NOT that fever.


Q

[Melethiel]

In the sense that no one can save themselves, ok.

But not in the usual Refomed sense.


Q
Granted, but she wasn't asking about the Reformed sense.

[Edial]

Very well said.:D :)

[Edial]

This is a false statement.


Mary did not ask about Calvinism, or any other collection of errors, she asked "Do y'all believe in total depravity because of original sin?" She asked this in a Lutheran forum, and I presume, expected a Lutheran answer.

The correct answer is "Yes".

Total depravity does not mean that people are as bad as possible, it does not mean that there is nothing "left over" from his image of God. What it does mean, is that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and that no mere refinement of natural capacities can correct this condition. As a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
I think the purpose of this post was to disagree with mine. :)
It certainly does so in the spirit of it, yet not in the essense. :)

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

Well, Ed, I agree with you here.

I believe it is important to note that when you study Article I of the FC, you will see some very careful distinctions made. "Even after the fall this nature still is and remains a creature of God." And so there is a huge distinction between human nature, which is good and God's handiwork, and the corruption that inheres in that nature after the fall through original sin. The sin is distinguished from the good creation of God. If my body has a fever, it HAS a fever but is NOT that fever.


Q


I think I might want to frame this post and remember this date, since there is an agreement between you and I.
It might not happen again in some time.

But in my view, the Eastern Orthodox approach towards man has some emphasys that the Protestants are glossing over somehow, and that is the Image of God in a man.

The very fact that there is a tremendous spiritual warfare waged against that chunk of a helpless meat that is called "a man", indicates that there is more to it in a man than being in the "image of Adam".

Traditional aspect of Christianity has much truth.

My personal objection against Traditional Christianity is that many who are in it simply revere tradition itself while saying they are not. (In Protestanism many revere the Bible itself). And that practice of clinging to Tradition and to the authority of the Traditional Church simply spoils the beauty and authenticity of traditional Christianity.
It it ridiculous at the best and idolaterous at the worst.

Yet Traditional Chrtistianity cannot be and should not be refused.
It is the ones that claim "sovereignty" who must be refused ... in any denomination.

Thanks,
Ed