Mysteries within the Word of God

[Hervey]

There are mysteries within the Word of God that never change. These Mysteries are what hold together the Word of God. Without these mysteries, the bible translations that you read, would be worthless ! As it is, some of the translations are just about worthless.

The apostle Paul said that he was a minister of Christ, and stewards, of the mysteries of God - I Corinth. 4:1

The reason Paul was a steward of the mysteries of God, is because behind these mysteries , is the hidden wisdom of God.

I Corinth. 2:7 - "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" ---- Romans 16:25 & 26 -- Ephesians 3:3

This is the Mystery that God kept hidden , but now is revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets. This mystery was expounded upon throughout the seven Church epistles.

The "mysteries" are within the Mystery. The "mysteries" are also used throughout God's Word ! They make up of the Word of God , and the Word of God takes on an excellence , upon which no other writtings take their standard of excellence from.

God said, that he created "man" in his own image, back in Genesis 1:27. Male and female created he them.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God - John 1:1

When God created the first Man - Adam, Adam was the "image" of God, because that is how God created him.

This "image" of the first Man, Adam, is where the "mysteries" of God can be found, and where they can be found within the writtings in the Word of God. Because, The Word was God, and God created Man in his own image.

I would like to start with the first one >

#1 - God is a God of two of everything --- And one is the literal, and the other is the figurative/ Spiritual.

Example: The first Man - Adam, was the literal, and God himself was the Spiritual.

1A - These two of everything, are mirror "images" of each other ! Which means - similar, but with reversals

1B - One you can see with your literal eyes -- The first Man - Adam
The other can only be seen, by looking at the literal, because on the physical realm, the Spiritual can not be seen.

This is why Paul said in Romans 15:4 - "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning"

Paul was "not' telling us to have head knowledge here in this verse !!

Paul was expressing to us, to learn that which was written aforetime, because it is for our spiritual learning. In Romans 1:20 Paul had already told us - "For the invisible things of him (God) from the creation fo the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

Because God is a God of two of everything. If I were to ask, how many great lights did God make ? The answer is simple, even before you look it up to make sure that your answer is correct - ( 2 ). Genesis 1:16. And God explains their purpose - one to rule the day,and the other to rule the night. <--- This is what is called "consistency", that God does not alter from, throughout His Word ! Why ? Because God is a God that changes not, and His Word was with him in the beginning , and - Was God !

The first Man - Adam, was the literal "male"

The first Man - Adam, was the figurative "female"

More mysteries to come (If the interest is worthy !)

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

Are you saying that there is a connection between Adam and Jn 1:1 the word?

Also the image of God as stated in Gen. must at least mean something less than God himself, right? Since the creature is always less than the creator.

When you say God is always the God of two of everything are you saying that he doesn't create something that doesn't have a dual meaning or essence or what?

Hervey you have my interest and so far, skepticism. But this is what these forums are for, right?

[LouisBooth]

umm...no hahaha..Adam is not the flip side of God. What an unblbical idea. God is not a "God of two". That is a very unbiblical idea. Don't force the bible to fit your ideas. Thanks.

[Mike K]

Paul spoke of "the mysteries of our faith". What he was talking about was the fact that Jesus was God, the whole trinitarian concept. That is the mystery of our faith.

I'm not sure I'm following where you're going with this.

[Hervey]

rkbo:

Your post is the only one worthy of a reply, but maybe the others would like to follow along anyways. It just might catch their interest a bit :eek:

Yes, there is a connection between John 1:1 and what God's Word says about the first Man - Adam.

The creature is always less than the creator, no doubt . But the key word here is "image", as I have explained. The first Man - Adam was "created" in his own "image". And throughout the Word of God, we can "see" both in the physical realm, and the spiritual realm. But we can only see the spiritual realm , by looking at the physical, which is why the apostle Paul said what he said, in Romans 1:20.

Everything within the Word of God , gives us an insight to the spiritual , from the physical, that God either created or made.

That is why we read in the NT about the "Second Adam" - I Corinth. 15:45- 49 <--- read these verses , and let me know what you think they are saying ? O K ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Blackhawk]

Hervey,

Really I do not see what you are saying completely. I think you should remember that yes there are mysteries to God but that the Bible was mainly written so anyone can understand. Also I would like to ask how did you find out what these mysteries were? And Are thesespecial myysteries? I guess it just seems all very gnostic to me.

blackhaw6

[Hervey]

Blackhaw6:

The Word of God is not written in such a way, that anyone can read the scriptures and understand them !

I Corinth. 2:10 - 16. <-- Read

Answer to your question , about how did I find out about these mysteries. -- "The Spirit of God". He revealed them to me, and has shown me, that these mysteries are how he protected His Word. They "hold" the Word of God together, which no man can destroy !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Blackhawk]

Hervey,

What I meant is that the Bible was written simply. You are right without the Spirit none can interpret the scriptures. But my point was that the essential truths of the Bible are plain. They are not hidden.

Also I still do not know where you are going with what you said above. Maybe it is just me but can you explain what you you said above. i understand the obvious but I do not understand what is so mysterious.

blackhaw6

[Hervey]

blackhaw6:

What specifically do you not understand, by what I said, and the scriptures that I asked rkbo also to read, and the scriptures I gave in my original post ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

Hey Hervey:

Well I believe the distinction is being made that we are born of flesh through Adam and born again spirit through Jesus. Adam was the begining of our fleshly existence and Jesus is the begining of our new spiritual existence. We are fleshly of the family of Adam and spiritualy of the family of God.

Do you agree?

[rkbo]

I would add that the Spiritual real can be seen
II Ki 6:17
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
(KJV)

The young man saw this with his eyes. also :

Ezek 1:13
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
(KJV)

Zech 1:8-10
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
(KJV)

Zech 6:1
1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
(KJV)

Rev 19:11
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(KJV)

I believe we can see in the spiritual realm through the power of God only but it seems you are saying that there is something about the physical that mirrors the spiritual and that this is the only way we can see the spiritual. Is that what you are saying?

[Hervey]

rkbo:

To "see" is to understand. That is what the spiritual understanding is all about.

God shows different men throughout the Word of God, certain things in the spiritual realm. But they do not see them in the physical realm. One may claim , that when the Word says - "saw" or "see" or "seen" that the Word is talking about the physical, but it is not !

We do see with our physical eyes. But the Word of God gives us something physical to understand the spiritual. Like the first Man Adam, is a mirror image of the Last Adam.

Visions , by revelation, are always related to something the receiver can relate too ! This is the way in which God can communicate a spiritual meaning.

For instance, the reason in the book of Revelation, that horses are used in the revealing, is because in that day and time horses and war were a part of each other. Horses were used as having a greater ability to fight a war. Those who had horses always had the greater advantage.

God gives us , from the things that are made, a spiritual understanding from those things that are made.

God made two great lights, one to rule the day, and the other to rule the night.

The 'sun' was one of those great lights. God uses it , to associate himself with the sun. "God is all light, and in him is no darkness at all". Not only that verse, but verses like this one > Psalms 84:11 - "For the Lord God is a sun, and a shield" -- or this verse which uses both great lights - Psalms 89:36 & 37 - "His (David) seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me " -- "It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven" -- or this verse in Revelation 12:1 - "I saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet"

Or I Timothy 6:16 - "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see : " <--- Everything here pertains to God, who is the "sun" , and this word "light" in this verse is using the literal sun, to give us a spiritual understanding.

No man has seen the sun, nor can man approach unto the sun, nor can they see the sun .

Thus rendering this > "No man can approach God, because he is all light, whom no man hath seen, nor can see, because he is too bright , and consuming ! > Deut. 4:24 - "the Lord thy God is a consuming fire"

The Word of God is full of these references , which pertain to the physical, to help us understand the spiritual.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

Blackhaw6:

I am trying to establish a starting point, to start our conversation with one another.

What I am asking you to do, is be more specific to what you are asking me to explain to you.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

So are you saying that a metaphore is more than a metaphore? That God is like the sun is a metaphore or else God is juat a ball of hot gas. I don't see the hidden meaning you are talking about.

Please elaborate on what you think God creating man in his image means.

[Hervey]

rkbo:

The first man Adam is both male and female. God separated them , when he took a rib from Adam and made woman. He then tells them to come back together to become one again. This , along with the images of hands , eyes, etc. are used throughout the Word in a spiritual understanding. Even to the point, that in the book of Revelation. The New Jerusalem is the bride to the Lamb. This is a metaphor, but it is also a spiritual meaning behind the metaphor. It takes on the exact same spiritual, that we see in the literal, that we see in Genesis with the first man Adam.

Throughout the Word, God uses the literal to explain the spiritual.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Blackhawk]

Hervey,

I agree with whatI hear that you are saying I just am weary because I do not know how far you are taking it or where.

I do not think everything in the Bible has more than one meaning. I think it has one meaning with many applications. So I really do not know how to explain my confusion.

If you are just stating that God uses physical things that have occured and they are like things that hapen in our spiritual lives I can dig that. But for some reason I think you mean more than that.

blackhaw6

[Hervey]

bh6:

What I am saying is what it "says" in Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are "clearly seen", being "understood" by the things that are made" <-- That is what I am saying, because that is what the Word is saying.

The invisible things of God , are the spiritual things, that we can not see with our physical eyes, but can be seen and understood, "by" the things that are made.

We only need look at the things that God made, in order to clearly see and understand the invisible things of God.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Blackhawk]

Hervey,

interesting. I agree. I have not really thought about this except for a casual look but it makes sense. I guess I will have to look again at your first post to see how you say that physical reveals God and His plan. Because the physical world at least reveals God. I am not certain that it reveals all that is within God's plan. And even if it does that we can really understand all of it.

blackhaw6

[edjones]

Originally posted by Hervey
rkbo:

The first man Adam is both male and female.

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

[Hervey]

Genesis 1:27 - So God(elohym - plural) created man (singular) in his own(singular - plural) image, in the image of God (elohym - plural) created him (singular); male and female (plural) created he (singular) them (plural). <--- Singular - Plural in the "ONE " true God Almighty, and the "ONE " man Adam is the image of God !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

Image of God? This has been debated at length for quite some time. We should note that it is not “express image” like Jesus.
Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV)

It doesn’t mean in physical form because God is Spirit. It doesn’t mean with all his attributes because that would be “express image” and Jesus alone posses that. It must mean with a spirit and moral conscience.
Eccl 7:29
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright;
(KJV)

God had made animal, then made a distinction of making man in “our image”. Along with a spirit and moral conscience he gave us reasoning capabilities and all this was good.
Gen 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
(KJV)

[Hervey]

blackhaw6

I will work with you if you have any questions, and don't hesitate to ask , whatever is on your mind. I will be glad to help you with this .

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

rkbo:

I can help you sir, if you will just allow me to help you understand.

Take the time to look in a mirror. Think of the image in the mirror. The image is not physical. God created man in his own "image". God is Spirit, which means that he is not physical. But because he created man in his own image. He 'is' what you see in "man".

Throughout His Word, he expresses about himself, as a man would express about himself also ! Man can be a father, and God is a Father also. Man has a right hand, and so does God. Man can have a son, And God had a Son. The son is not the Father, and the Father is not the son. A son is an offspring. The first man Adam, had offspring. To start out with , the Word tells us that he had three sons. Adam and Eve also had daughters.

This is a family, and God has a family also.

What God "made" reflects that which can not be seen. And no man has seen God at any time. So we look at the things that he made , in order to understand the things that are invisible.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

You are cofusing anthromophics with reality. Or else God is a blast furnace and a bird.
Ps 91:4
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
(KJV)

Heb 12:29
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
(KJV)

Hervey you have an unequaled talent for reading into texts, that which is not there. You have no understanding to impart. You have error and from how you depict Jesus you teach out right heresy. You sir need the true Jesus and to put your hope in him and not a false Jesus as you now have.

I say this because I am concerned with your salvation and because I must stand against false doctrine. We can have friendly debates, but not about who Jesus is. This is a very important subject.
Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(KJV)

[Hervey]

rkbo:

Don't fret your feathers, for I do believe in the correct Jesus, who is the Christ, the Son of God !!

Have a nice day in the Lord

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rwc109]

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Thus we take up Jesus' promise to pray the Father for us and He sends His holy spirit of truth to lead us into all truth. For me this means entering the spirit in meditation on sabbath.

[Hervey]

The comforter, the promise seed, is Christ IN us.

The baptism of the gift of holy spirit is upon us.

The "comforter" teaches us all truth. The gift of holy spirit upon ,enables us to operate the nine manifestations of the Spirit.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

So far I have seen very little interest in the Mysteries , that are within the Word of God.

I am still wondering if I should continue with this series or not, and if the effort is worth my time.

#1 - God is a God of two of everything

#2 - mirror image

#3- The most three, the least two

Another one of the mysteries is the most three , the least two. But before I get into this mystery, I also want to explain , that God being a God of two of everything, one is the literal, the other is the spiritual , hidden within a metaphor - figure of speech. They are mirror images of each other. In that , we have a similar , with a reversal. Like the first Adam and the Last Adam

In a mirror image, if you were to stand in front of a mirror. And if you raised your right hand. Then the "image" would be raising his/her left hand. <-- Similar with a reversal

This is the way in which the Word of God is written !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rwc109]

I noticed this amazing mystery too, that God 'writes' His metaphors in real history in the bible, I feel great sympathy for Israel being used as God's living counter-example to the spiritual man....their suffering has been ,is ,and will be enormous, but at least their reward is guaranteed [Ezek chap 37]

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* more numbers junk. God is not a God of two of everything..that is just a molehill you have made into a mountain.

[Hervey]

Hi all:

Well, there are going to be critics , no matter what the conversation is about. But , just to say that something is in error, without pointing out the error is a little dubious of that person !

We are to walk by "faith", not doubt. But that "faith" should come from the Word of God ! "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

A persons personnal comments, is "not" the Word of God !

God is indeed, a God of two of everything ! The Word of God proves it , time and time again !

Let God be true, and every man a liar .

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

Hi all:

The most three the least two:

This is a phrase that we find within the Word of God. God uses this phrase to indicate order. It is also one of the mysteries within the Word of God.

I like to call this mystery - Water - or better yet - H2O

Jesus Christ was in the earth for - Three days, and three nights.

Days - Nights = 2 (plurals)

Three - each = Three = The most three , the least two.

I Corinth. 14:27 - "If any man speak in a tongue, by two , or at the most three"

I Corinth. 14:29 - "let the prophets speak two or three

I Timothy 5:19 - "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses"

Hebrews 10:28 - "He that despised Moses' Law died without mercy under two or three witnesses"

Matthew 18:20 - "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

In the story of Judah and Tamar, Judah had children by "two" different women. One was his wife, and then Tamar who dressed up as a whore, and she became pregnant. Judah had five children in all. Three from his wife, and then two (twins) from Tamar. "The most three, the lest two". It was through one of these twins (Phares) , that the flesh line of Jesus , through Mary continued. Also , the story of the twins birth (Zara - Phares) is the story of the read thread. This is another mystery, that we can talk about later. That the "first shall be last, and the last first".

The controversy over , how many were crucified with Christ , can also be solved by know this mystery - The most three, the least two.

There were two malefactors and two thieves = four in all , who were crucified with Christ = five in all.

Three of them rebuked, and two did not - Both theives rebuked, and only one malefactor rebuked. One malefactor did not rebuke, and Jesus Christ himself did not rebuke . Three did rebuke and two did not. = The most three, the least two.

In Genesis 1:27 God created man in "his own " image.

But in Genesis 1:26 - Man was "made" in "our " likeness and in "our " image. And God said - "Let us" This is not singular , as verse 27 is, but plural. Who is the "our ", and the "us " in this verse ?

By this time Lucifer had been thrown out of heaven. And there are only three named angels in the Word of God. That leaves only two named angels left in heaven. Michael and Gabriel. Gabriel is a messenger, and Michael is a warrior.

So the "us" , is God and Michael and Gabriel. And God said, let us make man in our image and likeness.

In Romans 1:20 we are told , that the invisible things of God , are clearly seen , by the things that "are "made.

Man was made - body, soul, and spirit. Which is what God "and " the angels are also !

Lucifer was the angel of light, and was replaced by God's Son, Jesus Christ. We who are IN Christ, are the "lights" of the world. Light replaces light, that became darkness. God made his Son Christ Jesus, to be a messenger (Prophet) and a warrior.

Looking at Michael and Gabriel and Christ Jesus, we see the most three the least two . Three in all, but all three , are either a messenger, or a warrior, or both.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[rkbo]

What about "seven" or "fourty" or "twenty"
2 Chr 30:21
21 And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD.
(KJV)

Ezek 3:16
16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
(KJV)

Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)

Gen 7:4
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
(KJV)

Deut 25:3
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
(KJV)

Exod 27:16
16 And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: and their pillars shall be four, and their sockets four.
(KJV)

Hervey, you can make a case for numbers if you use a concordence and use essoteric bible interpretations. I have learned that you will not listen to sound doctrine. You say that God revealed mystries to you and you are going to impart this wisdom to the rest of us, but what if you have been decieved by an angel of "light". How could you know. You'd have to test it with scripture, but in your case this wont work because you have a twisted way of looking at Gods word. What is to be done with you?

2 Pet 2:1-2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(KJV)

I pray that you will see the light.

[Hervey]

rkbo:

I have just started,and I am not sure how far I will explain the mysteries within the Word. Because of the lack of interest.

But be rest assurd, that there are more mysteries , than the one's I have shared so far.

For your interest, look at Matthew 1:17 There are three sets of 14 generations from Abraham to Christ.

The most three , the least two.

7 twice is 14

There were 42 generations from Abraham unto Christ, and that number is very significant ! In 42 there are "6" seven's, and that is very significant also !

I can explain in detail latter, if the interest in the mysteries grows. But there is also a chance that I might end this thread , for lack of interest !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

rkbo:

I have a request of you.

In Romans 1:20 it tells us that we can see the Godhead, from the things that God made,and that it is without excuse.

You are so knowledgeable about the Word, shown by your replies.

Could you show me the "Godhead" from what God had made back in Genesis chapters one - five. If you can not, remember, there is no excuse !

IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"Could you show me the "Godhead" from what God had made back in Genesis chapters one - five. If you can not, remember, there is no excuse ! "

What does the pural term used in genesis for? hmm..the Godhead :) Your numbers stuff is just a bunch of making mountains out of molehills...they are coninsciendences and any person that reads the bible can see that. Mysteries of God..there are some..but not the ones you're peddling ;)

[Hervey]

Promoting your own high mindedness, is not talking about what the Word of God is saying !


Have a nice day in the Lord

God Bless

Love IN Christ - HErvey

[LouisBooth]

I agree Hervey...but it also says to watch out for false teachers and people that add things to the bible..or to quote col , "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosohy..." I think the numbers stuff you are talking about lines right up with that :)

[Hervey]

Louis:

What do you think the word "Triune" means ?

How many were crucified with Christ ?

It does not matter what you believe, you are still going to deal with numbers !

How many apostles did Jesus have ? (12)

How many disciples did Jesus have ? (16)

How many days are there in a week ?

What is the first day of the week ?

What is the third day of the week ? You can not find the words Monday, Tuesday etc in the Word of God !

Numbers are throughout the Word of God, and they are significant, in that, God is a God that changes not.

Do you know how many people that believe that Jesus died on friday and rose on Sunday ? Can you find three days and three nights from friday unto Sunday ? No matter how hard you try, you can not come up with three days and three nights ! Yet, people believe just about anything that they are told, because they are too lazy to count such a simple amount of numbers !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[edjones]

Numbers are throughout the Word of God, and they are significant,

Yes, very.
ed(been reading along) :cool:

[JohnR7]

I think Harvey you are getting the shaddows and types, mixed up with the real thing. Adam was made in the image of God, but he fell into sin. He was then no longer a image of God, but he was made into a image of the devil. Jesus said that those who do not belong to God have the devil for a father. (If a believer marries a non believer according to Billy Graham, you get the devil for a father in law)

Jesus came to show us the way to once again be restored to Children of God. Not through positive thinking, but through the new birth. We are changed, we are transformed. We are like Adam was before the fall. We like Jesus have the mind of God, the divine thoughts of God, the Love of God, we are being transformed into being the "expressed image of God".

He was made to be very man, so that we could be made to be all that He was, when He walked the earth.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren,

Jesus was not made to be like Adam after the fall. He was not made in the image of the devil. He was made to be like Adam before the fall, in the image of God. So that we also, could be restored and we also could once again become as Adam was, before Adam fell into sin and transgression. Thanks, JohnR7

[Hervey]

John:

You are so mixed up , you can not tell which is up and which is down.

God created Man in his own image, and he made man in his own image. The image of God, and the image of man does not change !!!

Adam was "never" made into the image of the devil !!!! Nowhere in the Word can you back up such a statement !!

The first Man Adam was made and created in the image of God. That will "Never " change !!

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

Numbers - what do they mean ?

God is a God that changes not. That being true, His numbers do not change either. In fact, it is harder to change a number than it is to change a word, from within the Word.

Can you imagine someone making a new translation, and saying that there were only 10 apostles of Jesus Christ ? How reliable would you make this translation , because you saw such an untruth ?

Subtle as the adversary is, he is not stupid ! Change a few words here and there , that would be fine, and it would be subtle, and no one would notice, and his deceit would continue unrestricted. Change a number, and just about anyone would notice. Thus that would not be subtle enough and sly enough, so he, for the most part leaves numbers alone, in the Word of God.

Like I said, he will change words and wording to make you think that only two were crucified with Jesus, when the truth is, that four were crucified with Christ. Three rebuked, two did not !

God does not change ,and his numbers do not change either !

How many named sons did Adam have ? How many named sons does God have ?

If you say that there were three named sons of Adam , you would be correct !

If you say that there is four , five or more named sons of God, in the Word you would be mistaken !

If Adam had three, then so does God have three. And there is the balance ! A false balance is an abomination unto the Lord God !

3 and 3 = balance

Adam God
1- Cain 1 - Adam
2- Abel (slain) 2- Christ (slain)
3- Seth - called sons of God 3- Last Adam (Christ
Jesus) - called sons of
God

Perfect balance of three. The most three the least two.

It is very difficult, without being subtle, for the adversary of God to change numbers ! That is why 99 % of all numbers in the Word , are the same , yesterday , today, and tomorrow !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"The first Man Adam was made and created in the image of God. "

Umm..I see a gnostic thought in there..its bad unbiblical stuff..and numerology is a bunch of hewy and not at all a "mystery" of God...You can do anything you want with numbers.

[Hervey]

How many have thought about the number 7 ?

A week is seven days long. It has a beginning and and ending. The Word uses days of the week with numbers. The first day of the week , or the third day of the week, is the way it is expressed within the Word of God.

We read in Rev. 1:11 - "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

The first day is (1) and the last day is (7). So what comes after seven biblically ?

On the seventh day in Genesis 2:2 - God rested from all his work which he had made. So what comes after 7 ?

There are two days which the Lord God made as days of rest. The seventh day is the Lord's day of rest (Leviticus 23:3) , and the tenth day is man's day of rest.(Leviticus 16:29 - 31) These are called sabbath days.

The feast of tabernacles took place on the fifteenth day of this seventh month. ( We call the seventh month July) And lasted 7 days. The first day was a day of rest, then for seven days an offering by fire was made unto the Lord. On the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you , and you were suppose to made an offering by fire unto the Lord, and do no servile work on the eighth day. So , the first day and the eighth day were days of rest. But lets add them up to get the full picture here ( 1st day - day of rest = 1, then for seven days offerings were made = 7 , and on the eighth day , which is the seventh day of the feast of tabernacles, is also a day of rest = ---- 1 + 7 = 8 full days ) Starting with the fifteenth day and add 8 days , it is now the 23th day of the month. ( Leviticus 23:33 - 38)

Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month after gathering all the fruit of the land, God told them to keep a feast unto the Lord for seven days. On the first day shall be a sabbath , and on the eighth day a sabbath. Logic tells you that there is not eight days in seven days. The same rule applys here as above. The first day is the sabbath , then comes seven days , and the eighth is of the seven days, being a total of eight days. This feast would also end on the 23rd of the seventh month. ( Leviticus 23:39 - 44)

Notice how seven is significant here, but also notice how eight is used pertaining to the seventh day also. Two days of rest, and two sabbath days - the 1st and the 8th were days of rest, and sabbath days.

What comes after seven ? The answer is eight ! Not suprised ? But what is the eighth day ? The eighth day is another seven - days. In other words - Eight goes back to one for another seven.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

Throughout the Word of God, God holds His Word together with numbers.

1- unit or unity
2 - two or established
3 - Complete - none other
4 - world or worldly
5 - God or grace
6 - man - completeness
7 - Spiritual - good or evil
8 - A New Begining - which goes back to One - unit or unity

I will deal with this more - soon !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

Hey did you know that if you start with A=100 B=101..if you add up all the letters in Hitler it comes out to 666..wow..he must be satan..;)

[Hervey]

Hi all:

Let me add, that none of the mysteries will "ever" contradict each other ! They do not change anywhere within the Word of God ! You can not "make" them fit ! They will either fit or they will not !

The Mysteries within the Word are always consistent !

In the Word, in dealing with the "earth", we find. The heaven and earth was created, then later in Revelation 21, God makes all things new. The New Heaven and New Earth is also called the third heaven, and the third earth is called "paradise" - II Corinth. 12:2 - 4.

The third Heaven and earth are made New - not created, because they were already created in Genesis 1:1.

But, there is no third Heaven and earth ! The usage of the word "third" here is a figure of speech. Because God is a God of two of everything.

The first earth was created, and life was upon the first earth, because God is a God of all life. Lucifer, who is called Satan and the devil, spewed out of his mouth water to destroy this earth in order to go after the woman - Revelation 12:15

This is the earth becoming void of life in Genesis 1:2 because of this water.

What we see from there is God "replenishing" the first earth, and by doing this . This replenished earth is the second earth, which is the first earth renewed. The third earth will not become new, until this earth is destroyed by God, by fire and brimstone.

The replenishing is noticed in a couple of ways , here in Genesis chapter one. In Genesis 1:28 God tells man to "replenish" the earth. Also, God does not need to create that which he already created. An example of this is by seeing the words that are used by God in this replenishing of the first earth, which now becomes the second earth, which is the first earth renewed. By looking at Genesis 1:3 , 6 , 9 , 11 , 14 , 15 , 20 , 24 , 26. these 8 verses all use the word - "let" . That is because this word is used to indicate that God, did not have to create those things which he said "let" too. Like - "Let the earth". That is because the earth had already been created, and did not need to be created again.

Both the third Heaven and earth are both the second Heaven and earth, because the second Heaven and Earth, are the first Heaven and Earth, renewed ! The "NEW" Heaven and earth, are totally New, and not renewed !

The most three, the least two, "Always" means you will end up with only "Two" !

The numbers in the Word of God will never contradict this truth about God being a God of two of everything !

More later.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

Just wondering if you noticed you and I are the only ones talking ;)

[Hervey]

I noticed, that I am the only one saying something ! :p



Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

42 generations :




Luke is the "geneology" line "of" Joseph the husband of Mary. Heli is the seed father of Joseph. Joseph was the "son" of Heli !

Matthew is a "generation" line , and not a geneology line ! Got it now ?

In Matthew there are 42 "generations" - The most three the least two

14 = two sevens
14 = two sevens
14 = two sevens

There are two Joseph's one is the "Father" and the other is the "step father"

One is the "Father" of Mary in order that Jesus Christ "can" be of the lineage of King David through Solomon. <- The King line! ( Acts 2:30 ) . This would be in Matthew.

The "adoptive" father line , is in Luke.

Notice: Two

1 - Father line

2 - Adoptive father lineage

The word "husband" in Matthew was translated incorrectly, for two reasons !!

1st - In order for Jesus to come in the flesh line of King David, he had to be born of a woman of that line !

2nd - Generations are not geneologies, and there are 42 generations in Matthew. And Mary is among the 42 generations ! She is number 41 and Christ is number 42.

The Greek word for husband in verse 16 is "aner" which can be translated "man". And should have !

Add it up !!

If Joseph is left here in Matthew chapter one as the husband of Mary, then there would only be 41 generations ! But if you translate the word husband, and correctly change it to "man" - meaning father in the generation line, "then" Joseph becomes the 40th generation and Mary the 41st generation and Christ the 42nd generation ! If you do not do this change, then you will only end up with 41 generations , and that is just not going to bring you to accuracy (Truth) of the Word of God ! You have got to come up with 42 generations ! ! Or else the Word of God would fall apart, because we would have discovered a flaw. But , the problem comes from the translators, who translated "aner" husband, when they should have translated this Greek word - "Man" of Mary, which makes him her father.

There are "Two" Joseph's, which are "Two" fathers ! !

1- Father of Mary ( Matthew )
2 - Adoptive father of Jesus Christ ( Luke )

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

Oh, I"m saying stuff..you're just talking and not making any sence and I am commenting on it. Numbers can mean whatever you want them to. Take a busn stats class and you will find that out. Did ya know that if you take 11 * 11=121 which adds up to be 8 which if you subtract 3 from (the number of groups of letters) you get 5 which is half of 10 which if you take 3 times it you get 30(orginal 8 is 3 above current number 5) which is only 1 less then the number of days in decemeber and that one means the world will end on the "one" day...wow...the colors.. hahaha..numberology is a bunch of junk.

[Hervey]

Louis

If you had something to contribute, then there could be a conversation between each of us. But when all you do is make fun of what God has put into his Word. You are not laughing at me, but at God !

I can not make what God has put into His Word work toward any of my own advantages ! They either work or they do not ! And if you can not understand simple math, then why are you trying to make such redundant conversation to begin with ?

IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"You are not laughing at me, but at God ! "

No..I'm laughing at your attempt to maniuplate numbers to put in something that is not in the bible..."col 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philoosphy, which depends on human tradition and the basic priniciples of this world rather then on christ

Also see titus 3:9 :) Don't go putting things in the bible, its not wise :) Numeriology is no way to interprete God's word.

[Hervey]

Louis:

You need to read your bible ! :wave:

Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of him (God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made , even his eternal power and Godhead ; so that they are without excuse :" :clap: :idea:

Did God make man both male and female ? :saint:

Did God make two great lights ? :)

Was there not four crucified with Christ ? Three railed on him , while only one of the malefactors did not, and rebuked those who did. And Jesus Christ did not revial back ? :) The most three , the lest two ! - Right ? ;)

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

*sigh* that verse is not talking about what you are implying. Numeriology is very much NOT of the bible. *sigh* You're just plain wrong. let me site bible verses as you do.."and judus went and hanged himself. "

"now go and do likewise." wow..you're really up a creek without a paddle now....

[Hervey]

Louis:

Don't look in a mirror, you just might see the image of God !

Two arms , two legs, two ears, etc, etc, etc etc. Even your two hands are mirror images of each other. Your body is in perfect balance.

There is now only one question -- What do you see when you look in a mirror ? The image of God, or not ? :hug:

:clap:

:holy:

:p

:D

:scratch:

:kiss:

:wave:

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Catchup]

What are you smoking? :rolleyes:
Your brains is turning but all your succeeding in doing is making yourself dizzy. It is not our task to figure out God. That would be an impossibility. The mysteries of God are incomprehensible for human intellect.

You are right though... You have been blessed with the answers that you need. Now you must open your eyes to see. Keep it simple... Learn to LOVE. For to survive this lifetime and whatever follows... all that is needed is .... Faith and Trust in God.

Now to play the numbers game with you...

God is ONE... but within that one exist everyone and everything.

;) LOVE

[Hervey]

Catchup:

I have already quoted Romans 1:20 more than once. And now you say the exact opposite of what this verse is saying ! Shame on you ! :(

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[goodnewsinc]

Original post at "Tentmaker":
http://www.saviorofall.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=319&forum=DCForumID38


"There are Mysteries Revealed!"

What has God revealed today that it "new"?
Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and "sealed till the time of the end".

Revelation 10:7 But "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished", as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for "that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider".

Isaiah 42:15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. 16 And "I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight". These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

NOW before you start attacking me (the messenger) again, notice who is DOING all this! Our Father said, "I will do" all these things. So do not get angry with me because He TELLS ME these things, (Psa 91:14-16) and I share them with you. Yes HE TELLS ME THESE THINGS AND I DO HEAR HIS VOICE ... even if revealing this to you offends your ego! I will not lie! Get angry with Him, because He does not speak to you that way ... if you are brave enough! Watch for goodnewsinc! Go to http:www.goodnewsinc.net We are just giving you "appetizers" now! Just WATCH!

GOOD NEWS, Inc. :clap:

[Catchup]

Hervey : A person could prove just about any point that they wanted to make by taking a single verse of the Bible out of context. I was going to give a couple of examples… but I am afraid your mind is too impressionable and you might take me literally. But anyway, Roman 1: 20 does not support your ideas and is not against any comment that I made. All of my beliefs are in line with the word of God. I have posted more of the verses that support the verse you quoted. Notice verse 19.... WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS PLAIN!!! Exactly the truth of my post God has made it simple for us. It is plain as the nose on your face.

Coops only ONE NOSE !!! :clap:

Guess that blows your number 2 theory! :D

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Goodnewsinc.: I'm going to jog over and take a look at the site you posted. Be back later.

:wave: LOVE

[Hervey]

Catchup

First , before you make such a statement, that a verse is taken out of context, you must show that that person has done just that ! Here you fail miserably :(

You have one nose, and one heart and one body , and one brain etc. But you have two nostril's in that one nose, and your heart performs two functions , and is a mirror image of itself. And your brain works the same way. It is one brain, but comes in two parts, and your left side of your brain makes the right side of you body function, and vice versa. Two eyes give you depth perception.

God's Word tells us "plainly", that we can see the invisible things of God , from the things that he made from the creation of the world.

Read I Corinth. 2:11 - "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him ? even so the things of God knoweth no man , but the Spirit of God"

Maybe this is your problem , do you think ? :idea: :scratch:

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Catchup]

I would be so very happy to keep up this debate with you ...
if I only knew at least... what ONE of us is talking about.
I am going to declare you the winner by default and get my butt off this thread. Thank God, I don't have to understand you to love you.

:) LOVE

[goodnewsinc]

Howdy!

You are behind a bit! It is time for you to "catch up"!

KJV Mic 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

KJV Proverbs 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Now read Daniel 12:8-10
KJV Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Gabriel tells Daniel in the END the mysteries will be revealed by God! It is "the wise" who will understand. Your statement is a revelation about your own standing! If you do not understand you must not be among "the wise"!

Whatever I have been eating, you should come to the same table!

GOOD NEWS, Inc. :yum:

[Hervey]

Because 8 in the Word , means a new beginning. Every number in the Word, can be divided by 7 and then look for the remainder, then apply what that remainder number is, and it will show just how perfect the Word of God really is !

1 - unit or unity
2 - two or established
3- Complete - none other
4 - World or worldly
5 - God or grace
6 - man or completeness
7 - Spiritual - good or evil
8 - A New Beginning , which goes back to one - unit or unity

Example:

II Corinth. 11:24 - "Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one"

This verse is saying that , at five different times Paul received from the Jews wippings, and each time, it was 40 less one.

40 less one is, 39> 39 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 4, which is "worldly".

Also - he had this done to him 5 times. So 5 times 40 = 200 less one, five times = 5 , and subtract 5 from the 200 = 195. > 195 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 6. which is man or completeness. In this case , it is "completeness". But let's not forget the fullness of the punishment, which was 200. > 200 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 4, which is "worldly". In this verse, we have "worldly" - twice, and completeness once. :)

This verse falls under the mystery, of the most three, the least two. :eek:

Try other numbers from within the Word, and you will see, that numbers are a part of the Word of God, that holds the Word of God together, so that man can not corrupt His Word ! :clap:

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

Her...its pretty obvoius that you're just making it up as you go along..Hey..what about the number 37 and a half? Got something for that? I'm sure you do ;)

[Hervey]

Louis:

There are a lot of numbers in the Word of God ! Including those with halves in them. And get this one - "time , times, and half a time" :wave: :D

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[Hervey]

Everything within the Word of God is divisible by 7. Even the English language, and our alphabet.

A = 1

Z = 26 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 5 = God or grace.

Jesus is the son of man, which is of this "world" and Christ is the Son of God -which is from heaven.

J = 3
e = 5
s = 5
u = 7
s = 5

Total = 25 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 4 = world or worldly.

C = 3
h = 1
r = 4
i = 2
s = 5
t = 6

Total = 21 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of O. Thus the number is 7 = spiritual

:)

Love IN Christ - HErvey

[Hervey]

Bump for David :D

:clap:

:)

L I C - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

lets play the numbers game...5-4 is one and I'm one person...wow...that means 5 and 4 put togehter are special and that is 54..its the super speical number...lets all sing along...la la la la super special 54..la la la.....


:)

[Hervey]

Only for those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear !

;)

L I C - Hervey

[Christi]

I have read this whole thread and I only have one thing to say: HUH?????

[Didaskomenos]

Interesting that anyone would think that they'd be able to solve something that even the Apostle Paul called a mystery! As soon as you think you have it figured out, you know you've got it wrong.

[Aikido7]

It is true that much of Paul's teaching is a "mystery" (mysterion appearing 21 times in Paul's letters). The crucified Christ is a part of God's redeeming plan for the world. To those who are saved by grace it cannot be fully understood.

Paul writes that he imparts "a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages" (1 Cor. 2:7). Thus, Paul's faith is based on his revelation from the risen Christ in accordance with God's plan for humanity. Further, this faith is folly to the wisdom of the world--a pagan world that seeks the knowledge of rational proof rather than simple childlike trust in the wisdom of God.

[Hervey]

Simple - Simple - God being a God of two of everything

I wonder how many know that it is an abomination unto the Lord God , to give a false balance ?

That is why God is a God of two of everything - always in balance !

:P ;)

L I C - Hervey

[Christi]

How is God a God of two of everything? He had twelve discliples, there were 12 tribes of Israel, there are 3 in the Trinity. Your other posts on this thread almost sounds like numerology. Isn't that like tarot card reading, astrology, and horoscopes? If this is a revelation from God to you, I wish he would send an interpreter, because I am completey dumbfounded.

[rkbo]

Christi you are on the right track.
2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

Hervey has promoted heresy and abhorent doctrine for some time now. He wraps it with Christian words and speaks as if he is the final authority. I'm not trying to sound like I'm attacking him but I am attacking his false teachings. Enough is enough Hervey. You will not listen to sound doctrine and you teach error and out and out heresy. We have for months tried to reach you but you will not listen. I for one will not let you lead any of the young christians astray........

[chagal was here]

say ...
did you know that
the numerical value of the hebrew word for serpent is the same as the numerical value of the hebrew word for messiah. (revelation commentary by j. massyngberde ford)

someone said it early in the thread - this whole thing is a gnostic teaching... secret wisdom that only the initiates have, dualism, the physical is worthless.... these are all gnostic traits.

It's true. There is nothing new under the sun. These same kinds of ideas were wrestled by the early church.

[LouisBooth]

Hervy, I think you're out in left field about the numbers thing. Its not biblical at all. Chagal, you hit the nail on the head.

[Hervey]

Christi:

The trinity can not come into balance ! There is no such thing as three are one, or three in one, anywhere, in the whole Word of God ! (Throw out I John 5:7 & 8 - added by man)

The "great Mystery" is that the -- "two become one" -- not three !! Ephesians 5:31 & 32

Jesus Christ said that the father and I are one. This is a simple deduction -- #1 - The Son & #2 - The Father - are one.

Proverbs 11:1 - "A false balance is abomination to the Lord"

God created man in his own image - male and female -- in the one man Adam = 2 in one

L I C - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"There is no such thing as three are one, or three in one, anywhere, in the whole Word of God ! "

yes there is..ice, water and vapor are three, but all have the formula H20. Sorry, you're (going along with my analogy) wet Hervey. ;)

[chagal was here]

and the heresy is revealed.....

[Hervey]

Louis:

H2O proves again also that there is no trinity ! It there was a triune god that made and created everything, then everything would be triune, but it is not !

Even H2O is only made up of two differing parts hydrogen and oxygen.

And God gave you only two arms and two legs and two eyes , etc !

10 fingers and 10 divided by 7 leaves a remainder of 3 and 3 means complete - none other.

And your two hands are mirror imgages of each other ! :)

And the Word is written in just this way !

God created Man (Adam) both male and female, and any second grader can count to two ! ;)

L I C - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"It there was a triune god that made and created everything, then everything would be triune, but it is not ! "

Another false statement. if you want to go further with this...not all things are made are in 2s..for example, what is the opposite of God? or a dog? There isnt' one.

You're a gnostic through and through...and your doctering falls under the warning Paul gave us in col 2:8 so away with you :)

[Hervey]

Ah Louis, you just love me being around - admit it ! ;)

L I C - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

yeah, but I could do without the numbers stuff....I do enjoy your posts as they are light hearted, just not the content :)

[Hervey]

Louis:

Would you like to know what I find interesting about numbers ? It is the fact that numbers do not lie !

The Word tells us to let God be true , and every man a liar.

Does 1 + 1 + 1 =1 or = 3 ?

Do you see how simple it is to spot a fraud ? While words on the other hand, can cause deceit in many different ways. A great deceiver can twist words in such a way, that one has to be very sharp in order to pick out what part of what he said is truth and what is not truth. A great deceiver can slip something past the hearer very easily. That is , unless the hearer has the ears of Christ !

Numbers don't lie !

L I C - Hervey

[rkbo]

Hervey what is 1x1x1? That's right ..... one. How can you limit God or pretend to understand his nature. He is beyond our limited mind. Infinite intellect is just that infinite. We can only apprehend what God reveals and he does not use numerology. He reveals himself in three persons and yet claim there is no God besides him. We have to grab this in a Trinitarian way......there is no other way to do it.

[Hervey]

rkbo:

What is 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 of anything ? One right ? Opps , is that too many one's for you to reason out in your mind ?

The trinity doctrine says - 3 in one, and there is no record within the Word to defend this false doctrine with !

Jesus Christ said that the Father and I are one. Simple math 1 + 1 = 2 or in this case 2 become one in the unity of the mind, purpose, strength, soul, heart.

Jesus Christ said, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me - John 14:10 - he doeth the works.

John 14:20 - "At that day ye shall know that I in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"

Lets look at this verse -- Christ is in the Father, and we Christians , are in Christ, and Christ is in us.

We as Christians have both (two) the Father and Christ as their abode. John 14:23 - "If a man love me (as a brother), he will keep my words : and my Father will love him, and "we " will come unto him, and make "our " abode with him".

As Christians - we have -- God(who is the Father) - IN Christ(who is the Son) - IN us !

John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father ; for my Father is greater than I "

Again we need to look at logic here. How can Jesus Christ be God, and the Father be greater than he is ? Logic tells us that this is impossible !

The Word tells us that God is a God that changes not ! And if we assume that Jesus Christ is God, then by shear logic he would have to change, in order to be less than the Father !!

Keep it simple !

God is the Father of all - Ephesians 4:6

Jesus is the son of man

Christ is the Son of the living God - the only begotten Son of God.

And we who have Christ IN us, are Christians, which makes us sons of God, because God put the spirit of his Son into our hearts crying Abba Father - Galatians 4:6

L I C - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"It is the fact that numbers do not lie !
"

wrong again, you can mathematically prove that the factorial of one is zero and that 1+1=0. Take some upper level college math like differential equations. I was baffled when I saw this.

"And if we assume that Jesus Christ is God"

*sigh* its not an assumption, it says it in the word. The Logos is Christ's name (to put it another way) pre-being made flesh. He was made flesh, and was God. Its all in John 1. Funny how you meantion eps..in 2:22 it also shows that the HS is God as well....

[Hervey]

Louis:

What I have shown you is simple math. Math that a fifth grader can do. Where 1 + 1 = 2

There is not one verse in the Word that claims that Jesus is God - not one ! Yet you throw out verses like water , expect me to understand.

If I was to tell you that baptism was in Galatians 2:1 , and if you tell me that you can not see anything about baptism in Galatians 2:1, does that mean that I am to consider you blind spiritually, or that you can not read ? Or could it be that if I made such a statement, that it would be I that see's something that is not there in Galatians 2:1 ? ?

You said that in Ephesians 2:22 is the trinity, and that Jesus is God -- Where ? I don't see anything , that would give anyone even the hint of an idea that this verse shows us that Jesus is God !!

Christ came in the flesh Louis , and we are to believe that Christ came in the flesh, and Christ was the Son of the living God. Read I John 4:15 & I John 4:3 = Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- who came in the flesh, and whosoever believes this --- "is of God " !!

L I C - Hervey

[rkbo]

Here's the thing Hervey. We have gone over all this before. We have answered all your verses and have shown that Jesus is God. He was subject to the father and that did not make him "not God" we have shown before that Jesus said the Father was greater than he using a military term as a General is higher than a private, but not better. We have gone through it all but you will not listen. You use all the Jehovah's Whitnesses arguments that don't wash.

If God has to fit in a box for you, so that you can fully understand his nature, you will have a limited God. There is only one reason you reject the truth and that is because you are the one that is "Blind" believing cleverly divised tales of deciept. You need to humble yourself and come to Jesus as your Lord and your God.

[Phoenix]

Hervey, have you read Isaiah Chapters 40 thru about 66 ?
Especially 48:16-19 ? Who is speaking Jesus or God ?

[Hervey]

Phoenix:

Answer to question #1 - Yes

Answer to question #2 - Isaiah the Prophet is speaking for God, by way of prophecy.

L I C - Hervey

[Hervey]

rkbo:

God has given us His Word in order that he may reveal himself unto us. If you want to call God's Word a box, go right ahead, but that is a funny way of explaining a God that wants us to know him as he is , according to His Word ! Remember - The Word is God, and God is His Word !

God limites himself to His Word, and will never go back on any of the promises He has made, or the explanations that He has give to us from His Word !

And it is you that will not listen to what the scriptures say ! If God changes not, then he changes not !

You are willing to change God , in order that your doctrine can be explained according to your worldly wisdom.

God and His Word is not complicated ! It is simple !

There is only One God , and he had a Son, and his name is Christ. Christ prays to God who is the Father of all, including His only begotten Son.

I am not sure if you have a son or not, but simple logic will reveal unto you, that you are not your son, and your son is not you ! And God created and made man in His own image and likeness.

You and others are the ones that want to make understanding God and who he is, complicated and confusing --- not I !!

L I C - Hervey

[Phoenix]

One of many commentaries on Isaiah 48:16 taken from the Blue Letter Bible on this site:

16. not . . . in secret-- ( Isa 45:19 ). Jehovah foretold Cyrus' advent, not with the studied ambiguity of heathen oracles, but plainly.

from the time, &c.--From the moment that the purpose began to be accomplished in the raising up of Cyrus I was present.

sent me--The prophet here speaks, claiming attention to his announcement as to Cyrus, on the ground of his mission from God and His Spirit. But he speaks not in his own person so much as in that of Messiah, to whom alone in the fullest sense the words apply ( Isa 61:1 Jhn 10:36 ). Plainly, Isa 49:1 , which is the continuation of the forty-eighth chapter, from Isa 48:16 , where the change of speaker from God ( Isa 48:1, 12-15 ) begins, is the language of Messiah. Luk 4:1, 14, 18 , shows that the Spirit combined with the Father in sending the Son: therefore "His Spirit" is nominative to "sent," not accusative, following it.

[LouisBooth]

"There is not one verse in the Word that claims that Jesus is God - not one ! Yet you throw out verses like water , expect me to understand. "

Well, if you're a christian you do..that is spoken about in eps...1:8 "and he made know to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ."

John chapter 1 clearly shows Jesus is God.


"Christ came in the flesh Louis , and we are to believe that Christ came in the flesh, and Christ was the Son of the living God. Read I John 4:15 & I John 4:3 = Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- who came in the flesh, and whosoever believes this --- "is of God " !!
"

You obviously haven't read Pslams 2 that clearly shows the title "Son of God" is a title of authority. It shows that this title doesn't mean that Christ is inferior to the Father. John chapter 1 also shows that Christ is God. Just read the chapter, its very easy to see. I urge you her to acutally read about jewish culture to understand the meaning of the title Son of God. The jewish people of that day worshiped Christ because they knew the title mean he was claiming authority of God, ie claiming to be God in the flesh. Christ is God, col 2:8-9

[Hervey]

Louis:

You make off the wall comments that you do not back up with scripture. When you say that the Son is not inferior to the Father, you are saying that they are equal in all things. But we have already gone over the fact that they are not equal in all things !

Here is just another example -- I Corinth. 11:3 - "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man ; and the head of Christ is God"

In this verse, if Christ is equal to God, then man would be equal to Christ and the woman would be equal to the man. And none would be inferior to the other. I would call that kind of thinking idolatry.

But if you accept what it actually is saying , according to the purpose of God , that shows us His order of things, then you will see who is the head of whom !

#1 - God
#2 - Christ
#3 - Man
#4 - Woman

Now you say that the trinity is in the revealed Mystery . And that one could find it in Eph. 1:9 ??? And now you are claiming that only christians can see the trinity in these verses you quote, and one can only be a christian if they confess that Jesus is God ???? When are you going to show clearly from scripture all these off the wall comments of yours ??

Colossians 2:9 - "Godhead bodily" =

God - over all
Head - Christ over his body
Bodily - Body of Christ and wife to Christ

John chapter 1 - No trinity in there either ! Are you going to show me the trinity in this chapter Louis ?

L I C - Hervey

[Hervey]

Two's

Exodus starting with chapter 25 and continue reading through Leviticus chapter 24:6 Look at all the two's !!

Everything written aforetime is for our learning - Rom. 15:4

A false balance is an abomination .

God is a God of balance throughout His Word, and three can not be in balance as far as the trinity is concerned !!

The pure, undefiled Word of God is consistent through and through.

Leviticus 24:6 shows balance - "And thou shalt set them in two rows , six on a row, upon the pure table before the Lord" = perfect balance !

There were eight souls saved upon Noah's ark - 4 men and 4 women = balance

The same with the animals that went into the ark.

There is leaven and unleaven bread -- no third - only two !

You can be hot or cold = 2 for God, but you can not be a third --- lukewarm , or God will spue you out of his mouth - Rev. 3:16

Trinitarians love to show only two crucified with Christ , "so that " the literal eyes see three including Christ. But the truth is, is that there were two crucified on either side of Christ, and Christ in the midst, making five total.

Three railed upon Jesus with their words , only two did not rail back - #1 - Jesus Christ and #2 - the malefactor that said to Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom and Jesus promised him paradise.

Three railed ------ Two did not rail back !!

God is a God of two of everything !!

L I C - Hervey

[Aikido7]

Believers who claim that they have a unique reverence for and subjection to the Bible--who claim that their version of Christianity (and theirs alone) is truly biblical and that the Bible itself is inerrant--have tacitly abandoned the authority of Scripture in favor of a conservative Protestant theology shaped largely in the 19th century.

This fundamentalist theology they buttress with strings of quotations to give it a biblical flavor, but it predetermines their reading of Scripture so completely that one really cannot speak of the Bible as having any independent voice in their outlook.

This "half-conscious Biblicism" in much of American Christianity wants to treat the texts as infalllible and, therefore, identical with God. The Bible itself says not a word about its own supposed infallibility and our pilgrimage as Christians is not served by using Scripture as a "proof text" to show how wrong someone else is.

This squabbling over competing voices can be dampened by going back to the words and deeds of Jesus in their authentic form. Jesus' Kingdom of God showed once and for all that the Divine is accessible to anyone anywhere. Whether setting up Messiahs to idolize or placing tables in the Temple courtyard, we are putting up obstacles to faith.

The curtian in front of the Holy place has already been torn in two.

When are we going to really realize this?

[LouisBooth]

"When you say that the Son is not inferior to the Father, you are saying that they are equal in all things. But we have already gone over the fact that they are not equal in all things ! "

What part of phil 2:5-8 did you miss...? "Who being in the very NATURE of God...." John chapter 1..logos is God Jesus is Logos therefore Jesus is God.

"I Corinth. 11:3 "

*sigh* context. its not talking about essenice or power in that passage. Get a clue dude ;)

"And now you are claiming that only christians can see the trinity in these verses you quote, and one can only be a christian if they confess that Jesus is God ???? "

Nope, nonchristians can clearly see it, but true christians always know its the truth.

'"Colossians 2:9 - "Godhead bodily" =

God - over all
Head - Christ over his body
Bodily - Body of Christ and wife to Christ "

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..

Okay, you have no knowledge of greek at all do you?

John chapter 1 shows that Christ is God. Read the chapter, a 10 year old can spot it..can you? ;)

[Hervey]

Louis:

From your explanations, I have come to the conclusion that you are spiritually discerned.

This does not mean that you can not have the eyes of your understanding become enlightened. It means that for the time being, you are spiritually ignorant of the scriptures.

In Philippians 2:6 the word "form " does not mean nature!

The greek word for "form" is - "morphe" and is "only" translated "form".

Maybe you should study these things more before making unwarranted comments ! ?

A spirit has a form, but a spirit can not be seen with the physical eyes. He was in the form of God = a spirit, for God is Spirit. Even angels are in the "form " of God = spirit

In Col. 2:9 - "Godhead" - greek word - "theotes" Not "theos". The word "Godhead" means God over or head ----- I Corinth. 11:- "the head of Christ is God"

L I C- Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"It means that for the time being, you are spiritually ignorant of the scriptures. "

*sigh* according to scriptures no christian is spiritually ignorant of scripture. Sorry, you're in the false teachers catagory now. :) Read eps chapter 1 along with col chapter 2.

"He was in the form of God = a spirit, for God is Spirit"

*sigh* so the burning bush wasn't God then? What a joke. Is you're name ed? God is spirit but takes on other forms when relating to us. One such instance is when christ took on a bodily form to dwell among us as described in chapter 1 of John's gospel.

"In Col. 2:9 "

No, the word used here is to denounce the summation of the Godhead, ie trinity. This verse simply put means Jesus was God.

[Hervey]

Paul told Christians that he did not want them to be ignorant of spiritual things. Until this explanation, they were ignorant of spiritual things, and they were Christians at that paticular time Paul mentioned that he would not want them ignorant of spiritual things - I Corinth. 12:1 - whole chapter. But don't stop reading there, as you will be ignorant of what it says in chapter 13, but don't stop there, keep reading. Because if you were to stop reading after chapter 13 , then you would be ignorant of what it says in chapter 14.

Your ignorant Louis of spiritual things, but I don't want you to be ignorant of spiritual things. That is why I point out truth to you, so that you can accept truth and reject it. Mostly from what I have seen, you have been rejecting truth.

And -- no -- the burning bush was not God ! God used the bush to talk through, because no man has seen God at any time ! Are you going to reject this truth also Louis ?

And --- God does not take on other forms. He uses different things and examples, but does not take on those forms ! We can read where God talked to certain people by using the wind to go through the trees , which made words that were discernable by the men listening, and they understood the words that were being manifested by the wind that went through the trees.

God uses a cloud to give an example that he is there with them. But God is not the cloud ! Exodus 16:10 -- Exodus 19:9 --- Numbers 11:25

Accept or reject truth, it is totally up to you Louis

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

"Paul told Christians that he did not want them to be ignorant of spiritual things. Until this explanation, they were ignorant of spiritual things"

WILLFULLY ignorant, big difference.

"Your ignorant Louis of spiritual things"\

*sigh* no, because your "spiritual" things aren't of christ, they are gnostic in nature and depend on the traditions of men and manipulating numbers, nothing more. They aren't spiritual truths.

"And -- no -- the burning bush was not God ! God used the bush to talk through, because no man has seen God at any time ! Are you going to reject this truth also Louis ? "

*umm...you haven't read that passage have you? Its made VERY clear that it was God present there, not just using the bush. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, If you want to reject the truth, that's your business, though i wouldn't recommend it.

"And --- God does not take on other forms. He uses different things and examples, but does not take on those forms ! "

They you deny what John 1 says, and deny the bible. Logos is God, Logos became flesh. Sorry to tell you God became flesh.

God also came down in the form of a cloud over the tabernacle. I think you need to spend less time messing with numbers and more time reading God's word.

[Hervey]

So I see you reject truth once again. It does not surprise me however. Most people will not back down from a stance that they have taken, even if the truth has been handed to them on a silver platter.

Exodus 3:2 - "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush "

Louis, this verse ? The one which says that an angel of the Lord appeared unto him ? Where is God in this verse ?

Everything you read in verses 4 thru chapter 4 and verse 17 was prophesy by way of this angel, who was speaking directly for God.

This is just one other thing you need to try and understand Louis ! ;)

Love IN Christ - Hervey

[LouisBooth]

I think you misunderstand. Go check the hebrew of that passage and look how it says, "God says X.." in the passage. yes, He appeared in the form of a fire, Just as Christ appeared in the form of a man, ie Christ is God. :) you're getting there, slowly but surely...

Her. The point is, God took form on this earth and revealed himself to people. Moses saw his robe as God passed by. He can take form, to say he can't is to limit him. In genesis you see this. God made noise WALKING through the garden. You still have to address how he came into the tabernacle.

[Hervey]

Louis:

When you say - "He appeared in the form of fire" -- Who does the "He" in you sentence represent ?

I will help you get there Louis , don't worry ! ;)

L I C - Hervey

[Hervey]

Louis are you on vacation from the forums for a day or two ? :D

L I C - Hervey

[Aikido7]

What meaning can be left when the fullness of the divine is reduced to a few dozen compressed words?

What purpose is served by men's argument about human interpretation of history? And by pointing out the bit of sawdust in our brother's eye without first taking care of the wooden plank in our own eye first?

What we need from history are images and words that focus, maybe a detailed story that stands for many stories, plus sayings and learnings which might not convey all meaning, or even be literally true, but can open eyes and hearts to deeper meaning.

None of our opinions about the Bible could withstand detailed scrutiny. Every claim and counter-claim can be refuted by someone. But taken as a whole, for what they are, the various books of the Scripture can
convey enough meaning to stir listeners to action.

I remember walking the battlefield at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, one summer evening after tourists had gone. I came to Cemetery Hill, where on July 3,
1863, 12,000 Confederate troops trying to cross 1,000 yards of open ground were stopped by Union troops firing canister into their faces. They came within a few yards of breaching the Union line, but were forced to retreat.

The details of that three-day battle would fill more volumes than the heart could bear to read. The accounts of historians are sobering enough. But
nothing is clearer than standing on Cemetery Ridge next to one of the cannon, whose barrel is not pointed upward in an arc but is aimed chest-high where men once stood. Another few yards, and American history becomes a different story.

Four months later, President Lincoln spoke 285 words at Gettysburg. Among them this quite erroneous assertion: "The world will little note, nor long
remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced."

In fact, the nation remembered the speech vividly, but it neglected to learn from the battle or the war that it turned. The Confederacy was broken, but then the nation began 100 years of terror, inter-regional hatred and racial warfare that were still going on when, as a child, I first memorized Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

I don't want to reduce the Gospels to Presidential
speeches. But if we Christians are to make any progress in finding oneness with each other or in fostering goodness and justice in our communities, we
have got to stop fighting about Scripture.

We have gottten stuck in the political and forgotten the social. Too many believers are acting from a "performance model" of relating to God instead of a "relationship model."

To do that, I think we must recognize that the Gospels are not a detailed account of everything Jesus said and did. They are not history. They are not factual truths to beat another believer over the head with--no matter how "nice" we try to do so from a "holier than thou" stance. They are not a transcription.

The Gospels present images, critical incidents, moments like standing on Cemetery Ridge when larger reality became clearer. Like the six presenters recounting four years of experience, each evangelist offered his own
tapestry of meaning. The four accounts do not agree with each other, nor, I suspect, do they fully convey the man or his story.

Their point was always to encourage action: examining one's own life, dedicating oneself to Jesus' unfinished work, daring to set aside enmity and to pursue justice. Not to memorize speeches, not to build memorials, but to learn from sacred history so that human history might be made better.

Our battles over Scripture, like fussy re-enactments of Civil War battles, are no substitute for action.

[soulsisterclaire]

That was definately written in love Aikido7, I wish that Hervey was here to see it...sadly he was banned...now he may never grasp the "TRUTH" :(