Israel... who does it belong to?

[Pray4Isrel]

I whole-heartedly believe the land of Israel belongs to the Jews.  Reading the Bible, one cannot deny that the land's rightful owners are the Jewish people.  Yet many Christians become complacent and wish for a compromise between the Palestinians and Jews.  

Where do you stand on the issue, and what scripture backs up your viewpoint? 

FYI: Check out this very informative media presentation on the history of Israel in a nutshell.

   http://www.infoclick.org/conflict.html

[Project 86]

Thanks Pray4Isrel for the link. I was looking for something just like this!

[Pray4Isrel]

No problem! It's a great resource.
God Bless, friend!

[dignitized]

um . . . I think the question has been misframed. Israel belongs to the Hebrews and no Muslim would dispute that. The dispute is over land - not over a national identity.

[Joj]

The "Land" was given to the nation of Israel. The twelve tribes of Judah, Abrahams seed. It was given to them forever, and its much larger than present day Israel, contrary to what those prophesy buffs call fulfilled prophesy regarding the nation.

His....Joj

[Pray4Isrel]

Yes, in actuality the land would cover a much larger territory than what it occupies presently.

[SonWorshipper]

Do you think Saddam will let them build a kibbutz by the Euphrates? ;)

[Blindfaith]

Do you think Saddam could stop God's plan?  :)

[Pray4Isrel]

Saddam's about to have his mouth shut for him.
I like what Sean Hannity says about Saddam: "Get the dictator before he gets us!"
:)

[BeanMak]

However.... To tell the Palestinian people, "So sorry, although you and yours have lived in this land for a thousand years, it belongs to the Jews, hand it back" is going to stick in some craws. There has to be compromise.

[Pray4Isrel]

Why not take the land that was given to them by Jordan?
http://www.infoclick.org/conflict.html

[dignitized]

when you get down to it the "LAND" belongs to God. :) It was God who allowed Israel to be scattered because of their sins - it was God who opened the door for the re-establishment of the nation in the Palestinian region. If he chooses now to allow Israel to again be scattered - sobeit. It is God who will see His plans fulfilled in His time. :) I Trust Him. :D

[Michael0701]

I can certianly see Br. Max's point.

But how do we "know" with certianty that God is not using the US to return the land to the Hebrews? I am not saying that to justify a Us-Israeli alliance, just trying to keep an open mind. All of this is God's hand at work. He knows why. All we can do is try to understand.

My wish is that there could be a way to allow Israel to maintain it's present borders and for muslims and jews to practice their faith together in peace. But my brain tells me that is impossible.

[Joj]

"There has to be compromise."

God promised Israel the specific land. If He allows a final compromise, He lied to them.

In the final scene, there will be no compromise, until then there just may be.

Has anyone ever noticed that Israel in the Old and New testament were promised the land forever, while the body of Christ are promised to be taken off the earth to forever be with the Lord, seated in heavenly places?

His......Joj

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Joj

Has anyone ever noticed that Israel in the Old and New testament were promised the land forever, while the body of Christ are promised to be taken off the earth to forever be with the Lord, seated in heavenly places?


Do you mind expounding upon that statement?  Not sure I'm following you... Thanks! :)

[Joj]

"Do you mind expounding upon that statement? Not sure I'm following you... Thanks!"

All of Gods promises for Israel were earth centered, and are to take place on the earth. They look for Jesus to come back and rule over them from Davids throne on the earth. The prophets told all about it, and it was revealed since the foundation of the world. (Luke 1:69-70)

All of our (Body of Christ) promises are heavenly (eph.1:3). We look for Him to meet us in the air to take us off the earth to forever be with Him (2 Thess. 4:17). These truths as were many others were hid in God since the before the foundation of the world, (eph.3:5)(Col. 1:25-26) and were revealed to us by the risen Lord through the apostle to the gentiles, Paul (Eph.3:1--10).

God has an eternal plan for both the heaven and the earth.

Hope this helps.....

His......Joj

[SonWorshipper]

So by that how do you see us being with Him in heaven during the time He reigns on earth? And what after that? What happens to the Jews then? This is split philosophy to me. We are all one in Messiah, and whoever believes in Him will get to live with him forever, wherever He is.


It’s just like someone saying you can’t celebrate Passover because it’s Jewish. It’s God’s Holi-day for all that believe. A lamb was sacrificed to save from death. What lamb?

[dignitized]

What people fail to realize concerning the current conflict is this: The Jews wanted to work with their Arab neighbors to build a country together. The neighboring Muslim countries are the ones who lobbied the Palestinians against such an alliance. They promised the Palestinians that they would wipe Israel off the map - that if they left the country they would be safe from the purge. NOW they are living in refugee camps created by the UN in the lands of their MUSLIM brethren who refuse to allow them to be assimilated into their own countries. Granted that Israel now has control over some of those lands NOW, but that was not the case early on. The quickest and easiest way to end this conflict is to dissolve the refugee camps and encourage the former residents to get on with their lives. There are MANY MANY Israeli Arabs who live and work along side the Jews in Israel.

[Martin]

I think it belongs to God (Deuteronomy somewhere..) the only piece of land He kept for Himself, and He decided to give it to Israel, so I guess it's theirs now. Anything else is robbery....

It's no surprise that Satan wants to get his hands on it. He's been trying to set himself up as God since before time - now he want's God's land....Mmm!

[Joj]

"So by that how do you see us being with Him in heaven during the time He reigns on earth?

Because 1 thess. 4:17 tells us that we are taken/caught up off the earth to FOREVER be with the Lord. Eph.2:6-7 also says...."and raised us up together and made us to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. that IN THE AGES TO COME He might show the exceeding riches of His grace". Eph. 1:20 tells me that the "heavenly Places" are off the earth. Thats where Jesus is seated now.

" And what after that? What happens to the Jews then? This is split philosophy to me. We are all one in Messiah, and whoever believes in Him will get to live with him forever, wherever He is."

I am not sure what you are asking, but the Jews inherit the earth. After all God did promise them the land forever. The New Jerusalem does come down to the earth after the millenial reign does it not?...... Job after the ressurection looks to see God ON THE EARTH Job. 19:25-26.

All of Israels promises are earthly as I said. If you don't believe me, why dont you try posting one that isn't.:-)

"It’s just like someone saying you can’t celebrate Passover because it’s Jewish. It’s God’s Holi-day for all that believe. A lamb was sacrificed to save from death. What lamb?"

??? Dont quite follow you there sonworshipper. Let me ask you though, if you did still observe the passover, would you still sacrifice a lamb and spead its blood over your door?

His......Joj

[SonWorshipper]

The sacrifice was made, a memorial was set by that sacrifice, we are told to remember it. :)

[Joj]

Was that supposed to be a reply to what I posted and asked?

[Blindfaith]

All of Israels promises are earthly as I said. If you don't believe me, why dont you try posting one that isn't.:-)

I guess I don't quite follow you.  When God promised the land to Israel, it shouldn't count because it's earthly?  I'm confused :confused:

 if you did still observe the passover, would you still sacrifice a lamb and spead its blood over your door?

??  So we shouldn't celebrate the Passover because we don't need to sacrifice a lamb anymore?  Why not? 

[Pray4Isrel]

We should most certainly be able to celebrate Passover without the sacrificing of a lamb. Just like when we take communion, we are not asking Jesus to be recrucified. It is the observance that matters.

[Phoebe]

It belongs to G-d.

[SonWorshipper]

Originally posted by Joj
Was that supposed to be a reply to what I posted and asked?

Yes.:)

[dignitized]

The Eucharist is not a re-sacrifice - it's a RECONNECTING with the one sacrifice, but then that's another issue. :)

I think we can all agree that the land belongs to God to do with as he wills.

Some things we need to remember when looking at this issue -

1. Israel became a nation in the year 1312 BC 2000 years before the rise of Islam

2. Arab refugees in Israel did not begin to refer to themselves as "Palestinians" until 1967 2 decades AFTER the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3 There has been a continuous presence of Jewish people in the land for the past 3300 years.

4 No arab dominion over the land of Palestine lasted more than 22 years since the Muslim invasion in 635 AD

5 No Arab people ever viewed Jerusalem as their capital. When Jordan had control of the city, they did not make it their capital nor did their leaders even VISIT the city.

6 Jerusalem is only mentioned once in the Koran vs 700 in the Tanach.

7 in 1948 the arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by ARAB leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. 68% left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

8 JEWISH refuges were forced to leave ARAB lands due to ARAB brutality, persecution, and pogroms.

9 The number of Arab refuges who left Israel in 1948 is estimated at 630,000 equal to the Jewish refuges forced out of Arab countries.

10 ARAB refuges were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, DESPITE an abundance of Arab Territory.

11 Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since WWII, the Arab refugees are the ONLY group in the world that has NEVER been integrated into their OWN PEOPLES lands.

12 Jewish refuges were completely absorbed into Israel a country no bigger than the state of New Jersey.

13 The PLO charter still calls for the DESTRUCTION of the state of Israel.

(from the JDC Quarterly News letter)

[Joj]

"I think we can all agree that the land belongs to God to do with as he wills."

I can't agree with that. God gave the Land away FOREVER as He already willed. Read Genesis 13:14-15.......... Accept it, or just go right ahead and call God a liar, it wont change what God already did with it.
Whatcha think now Br. Max? Gonna read it and interpret for me?

Sheeesh, why some of you cant accept what the Word says is beyond me.

His FOREVER as well..............Joj

[dignitized]

Joj: gee God took Israel more than once off that land . . . . And I believe the last time I checked, the Arabs were the children of Ishmael son of Abraham. :)

[Joj]

"Joj: gee God took Israel more than once off that land "

What does that have to with it? Where are they now again?

Ths bible says.......and the Lord daid to Abram, after Lot had seperated from him. Lift your eyes nowand look from the place where you are- northward, southward, eastward and westward, for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.


" And I believe the last time I checked, the Arabs were the children of Ishmael son of Abraham"

If thats the case, then they are right at home. To bad they dont believe the same God as we.

[Pray4Isrel]

I agree that the land solely belongs to the Jewish people. God does not break His promises and His covenants. :)

[Blindfaith]

Thank goodness for that P4I!  If He did, we'd all be in a whole lot of trouble.......

God is good, all the time.

[dignitized]

Joj: my point remains - Its up to God whether or not Israel lasts or fails as a nation in the Middle East. They need to trust God and so do we. :) If they are looking to anyone or anything other than God to establish them and to keep them they will fail has they have before in the past.

[Pray4Isrel]

This is true, Br. Max.
We have assurance in Revelation of Israel's victory that can give us an idea for the future. I believe since Israel became a state in 1948, Israel will stay in the hands of the Jews.

[caley]

Okay, if there is no compromise...what do they do about all the Palestinians living there?

[Pray4Isrel]

They can go to Jordan where the land was initially given to them. Also, there are other alternatives... look at the mass of land surrounding the tiny state of Israel.

[Mr. John]

I might get banned for writing this. What I read on this thread sounds like apartheid. Apartheid was dismantled in South Africa over world wide pressure. Why does Israel have a similar system with no negative outcry?

 

Mr. John 

[Michael0701]

Compared to some other posts I have seen on this site, lol, you have nothing to worry about. ;)

[dignitized]

Mr. John - There are Muslim and Christian Arabs living side by side with Jews in Israel and have been since the country was founded. The problem rises in those arabs who left the land because they were promised that the land would be purged of Jews by ARAB leaders. No once forced these people out. They were invited to stay from the start and build a country together. These people now dwell in Refugee camps run by the UN. If you want to blame any one for the problem - blame the UN. If they UN had not set up and maintained these refugee camps, the Arab countries surrounding Israel would have absorbed these people. ANYHOW - refer to post number 27 of this thread.

God bless

[Mr. John]

Thank you Br. Max for your response. I have read enough over the years to say that there is enough blame to go around to all parties. However, I do desire that both Jews and Arabs come to know Christ Jesus as their personal savior. Here is something that has caused me to ponder when I view it.

http://humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

I just want to know what is really going on with the situation in the Middle East. I am tired of the propaganda that is spooned fed us through the media

Yours in Christ

Mr. John

PS I will be writing an important thread in the near future. I would like to know if there is a Messianic Jew who is an expert on the Torah and the promises given by God to Israel. I would like to begin with PM's with this person before I begin to commit anything in writing.

[caley]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
They can go to Jordan where the land was initially given to them. Also, there are other alternatives... look at the mass of land surrounding the tiny state of Israel.

BS.  You are saying people should be uprooted from their homes and deported simply for having different beliefs from the State-sanctioned official system.  I hardly think that is a Christian ideal.

[dignitized]

Caley: please refer to post 27 of this forum when I have listed some FACTS about the current situation. :)

[ILJ]

Grace and Peace to all.

In Christ
ILJ

[ILJ]

The land of Israel is 1st. God's land, but he promised it to the Jews. He has removed them from it at certain periods of time. But it is my belief that they are there to stay. There is no other race that the land was promised to, others have only been allowed to possess it briefly. The times of the Gentiles are seemingly coming to an end soon. The Jew has no greater friend than true Christians.

I would give my life for the Jews. I love all people. I love the Arabs too, we must reach out to all people.

In Christ
ILJ

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by ILJ
The land of Israel is 1st. God's land, but he promised it to the Jews. He has removed them from it at certain periods of time. But it is my belief that they are there to stay. There is no other race that the land was promised to, others have only been allowed to possess it briefly. The times of the Gentiles are seemingly coming to an end soon. The Jew has no greater friend than true Christians.

I would give my life for the Jews. I love all people. I love the Arabs too, we must reach out to all people.

In Christ
ILJ

AMEN and AMEN!

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by caley
BS.  You are saying people should be uprooted from their homes and deported simply for having different beliefs from the State-sanctioned official system.  I hardly think that is a Christian ideal.

I am sorry you feel that I was implying that we need to uproot the Palestinians, but I am saying that if they want their own state, then they can go elsewhere.  How do you feel about their suicide-bombing innocent civillians?  You know why they do this don't you?  You say it is not a Christian ideal, well tell me this, is it Christian to condone a religion that teaches "Death to Jews and Christians"  is it Christian to allow a small blip of land on the map to be terrorized by men who think they will be rewarded in the after-life for blowing to pieces men women and small children?  I have a map here in my office at home.  It has the picture of every Jew killed in a suicide bombing... look at the pictures of their faces, look in their eyes, see how they were brutally murdered and then try telling me it's not Christian to ask the terrorists to leave.

[caley]

While I agree that suicide bombing is abhorrent, I would also point out that not every Palestinian is a terrorist. I would also point out that the Israeli government has been known to commit atrocities as well (Sharon has been investigated a few times for war crimes by the UN). The only realistic solution I can see to the problem is a nonreligious state that allows citizenship for both Jews and Palestinians.

[Pray4Isrel]

Nonreligious? But the very core, the very heart of both people groups is their religion. That will never work. Not when One's religion teaches death to all Jews and Christians.
Not all Palestinians are terrorists, yet their leaders pay the families off for any acts of terrorism comitted. What does that say?
Sharon has only defended the way any country defends itself against terrorism. The same way the U.S. needs to defend herself.

A little thing I learned while in Israel (our guide told us): You know what UN stands for? UNnecessary ;) They accomplish nothing.

[Blindfaith]

You know what UN stands for? UNnecessary They accomplish mothing

If that isn't the truth P4I!!  They're totally ineffective and a complete joke.

Palestine is not interested in living peacefully with the Jews.  They've been offered land, and they refuse.

They, along with many other Arab nations wants to eliminate Israel off the face of the earth.

I got news for 'em ~ God won't let 'em.

 

[Mr. John]

http://www.sundayherald.com/27735

Mr.John

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Mr. John
http://www.sundayherald.com/27735

Mr.John

I'm sorry - I don't understand. 

What are you impling by the above link?

[Mr. John]

Look at the link on post #40 and you might see a connection.

Mr. John

[dignitized]

wow I can't believe tha RUBISH people will buy into :sigh: If you want ACCURATE news - tune into FOXNEWS.

[Mr. John]

If you want ACCURATE news - tune into FOXNEWS. :rolleyes:

Mr. John

[dignitized]

John: you need not agree, but unlike liberal new media outlets they have little need to make corrections or to make retractions. They give fair and balanced news. But if you won't take their word for it - the PBS program FRONTLINE has demonstrated time and again that the media is slanted pro-Palestinian and that the nation of Iraq is far from happy with their current leader. Speaking out against Saddam in public however carries a DEATH penalty. Is it any wonder few people are willing to stand up in Iraq and say - SADDAM STINKS!? Israel has show a great deal of restraint in dealing with the Palestinian terrorism.

[SonWorshipper]

Israel cannot stand on its own two feet without U.S. support of military hardware and there is little wonder why the the Arab world hate us as much as they do,

Israel doesn't HAVE to stand on her own two feet, she has the Lord watching out for her. Do you really think that 1948, 1967 were won by the Israelis? No! It was a supernatural act of Their God. This is a spiritual war, the physical that we see is only a "front" for what is really going on.

[Mr. John]

Ever heard of the Samson Option? That's what turned the war of 1967 in Israel's favor. Not quite a supernatural act I would say. 

I will take my leave of this thread and visit no more.

Mr. John

[Blindfaith]

Please keep in mind rule #4 when posting;



 

[Hector Medina]

GREAT POLL!

I believe it should by tradition belong to the Hebrews/Jews.

The compromise that we have today is still in limbo and probably can't be solved peacefully between Isreal,Jordan,Lebennon and Egypt.

God Bless the Holy Land!

Hector

[Pray4Isrel]

Amen Hector!

[Talmid HaYarok]

Genesis 15:18-21

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and the Jebusites"

The Lord did indeed promise this land to Abraham's descendants and again to Israel. But where is the exclusivity of it? I find it a fitting note that when Abraham's children of the Lord's covenant were expelled from the land, Abraham's other children dwelled in the land and kept the promise fulfilled (though it belongs first to the Jews to dwell in Israel

Genesis 16:10-12

The angel of the Lord said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ishmael; because the Lord has given heed to your afflication. He shall be a wild *** of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."

While the Arabs did not receive the covenant, they are also a special people who were especially blessed by G-d himself above all the nations.

Finally,

Exodus 22:21

You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Even in their own land the descendants of Israel are not allowed to oppress those who are not their society. This certainly should apply to non-Jews in the current day, and I would uphold that many of the Palestinians truly are oppressed.

Is it complacent to wish for peace and be a peacemaker? Is it a sin for those who consider the Palestinians to be their enemies (or at least the enemies of the Jews) to love their enemies?

In Yeshua's time on the land the Jews also had a great enemy in the land in the Samaritans. I hope we all know how he treated them, and I don't believe that he would treat the Palestinians any less than the Samaritans.

May the Lord's Peace calm your souls.

[caley]

Excellent post, Talmid.

[Mr. John]

Good Talmid, very good.

[Homie]

talmid
Even in their own land the descendants of Israel are not allowed to oppress those who are not their society. This certainly should apply to non-Jews in the current day, and I would uphold that many of the Palestinians truly are oppressed.
Incorrect, they can vote, they work in Israel and as long as they do not kill Jews they are OK. They are not oppressed.

Mr. John I read your article and saw the media presentation from the link you posted. It makes me wonder how people can believe complete rubbish if they WANT IT to be true.

That article has so many ASSUMPTIONS it is really funny, in addition: It is completely irrelevant! And the media presentation presents many irrelevant facts like "Israel has nuclear weapons", what has that got to do with the Israeli-palistinian conflict? Also it projected several errors. I do not understand how you can believe this BS after you have read the facts posted by Br. Max and saw the media presentation posted by pray4Israel (although the presentation was bias, the facts are correct and speak for themselves)

[Ruhama]

Homie I think you speak as one who has never lived there.

[Talmid HaYarok]

my statement originally quoted is accurate.

Palestinians can't vote, not in Israel (which they aren't citizens of), nor even in their own country. As far as working in Israel, thats hard to do when travel in and out of Palestinian cities is closed.

Some may deserve it and have brought it upon the whole, but many of the Palestinians there suffer from both sides. Now I have to ask, is it Christian to make people suffer?

[Homie]

Palestinians can't vote, not in Israel (which they aren't citizens of), nor even in their own country. As far as working in Israel, thats hard to do when travel in and out of Palestinian cities is closed.
Id have you know that there are Palestinians living and working in Israel and they do vote. But of course the people that are not citizens cannot vote, logically. The travelling restrictions they have brought upon themselves by killing civilian Jews. Granted not all Palestinians are terrorists, but how can the state of Israel know which ones are and which ones aren't? They cannot and therefore they have to have strict guarding of the roads, for security reasons. You probably know this, so why bring it up as an argument when you know I will refute it?

Some may deserve it and have brought it upon the whole, but many of the Palestinians there suffer from both sides. Now I have to ask, is it Christian to make people suffer?
No, but Israelis are not bringing suffering upon the Palestinians, they are bringing it upon themselves, and they will not rest until Israel is wiped off the map.

Problem: Poverty, crisis etc.. hmmm (what to do?) Aha! Find a scapegoat. But who? Aha! The Jews, it has been done before and obviously works. But how to win over sympathy from the West? Aha! Emotional rubbish, crying women and children who can turn it on/off like a faucet. Messed up a bit after 11.september by cherring and dancing in the streets and being caught on film. But it was dismissed (shortly after) by the lovely western press, thank Allah for them.

[Noa]

Originally posted by BeanMak
However.... To tell the Palestinian people, "So sorry, although you and yours have lived in this land for a thousand years, it belongs to the Jews, hand it back" is going to stick in some craws. There has to be compromise.

Which history boook did you read?

:( :( :(

Shalom!

Noa

[Noa]

Originally posted by Michael0701
I can certianly see Br. Max's point.

But how do we "know" with certianty that God is not using the US to return the land to the Hebrews? I am not saying that to justify a Us-Israeli alliance, just trying to keep an open mind. All of this is God's hand at work. He knows why. All we can do is try to understand.

Wrong. There was one land which is used by G´d to give back the Holy Land and that was not the United States :P

How about United Kingdom? So, on that point, the job is already done ;-)


My wish is that there could be a way to allow Israel to maintain it's present borders and for muslims and jews to practice their faith together in peace. But my brain tells me that is impossible.

It will be hard ... impossible I assume.

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Talmid HaYarok
my statement originally quoted is accurate.

Palestinians can't vote, not in Israel (which they aren't citizens of), nor even in their own country. As far as working in Israel, thats hard to do when travel in and out of Palestinian cities is closed.

Some may deserve it and have brought it upon the whole, but many of the Palestinians there suffer from both sides. Now I have to ask, is it Christian to make people suffer?

Until they stop suicide bombing innocent civillians, having checkpoints is not a bad idea.

keep in mind I have been there (Israel) on different occasions for lengthy stays... the palestinians are oppressed by their own leaders, not Israelis who wish to be safe from terrorist suicide bombers.  Yasser Arafat teaches his people terrorist tactics yet won't teach his own people to read!  How wrong is that!

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Homie
Id have you know that there are Palestinians living and working in Israel and they do vote. But of course the people that are not citizens cannot vote, logically. The travelling restrictions they have brought upon themselves by killing civilian Jews. Granted not all Palestinians are terrorists, but how can the state of Israel know which ones are and which ones aren't? They cannot and therefore they have to have strict guarding of the roads, for security reasons. You probably know this, so why bring it up as an argument when you know I will refute it?


No, but Israelis are not bringing suffering upon the Palestinians, they are bringing it upon themselves, and they will not rest until Israel is wiped off the map.

Problem: Poverty, crisis etc.. hmmm (what to do?) Aha! Find a scapegoat. But who? Aha! The Jews, it has been done before and obviously works. But how to win over sympathy from the West? Aha! Emotional rubbish, crying women and children who can turn it on/off like a faucet. Messed up a bit after 11.september by cherring and dancing in the streets and being caught on film. But it was dismissed (shortly after) by the lovely western press, thank Allah for them.

AMEN AMEN AMEN!

You go, Homie!

 :clap:

[Noa]

Originally posted by sonworshipper
So by that how do you see us being with Him in heaven during the time He reigns on earth? And what after that? What happens to the Jews then? This is split philosophy to me. We are all one in Messiah, and whoever believes in Him will get to live with him forever, wherever He is.


It’s just like someone saying you can’t celebrate Passover because it’s Jewish. It’s God’s Holi-day for all that believe. A lamb was sacrificed to save from death. What lamb?

The Plan of G´d concerning Jews and Christians are different. Joj is right! The stars (christians=heaven) and the sand (Israëli´s=earth) of Avraham. In the meanwhile we are ´one´ in the mercy of Yeshua HaMashiach. Just mercy, not work.

[Noa]

Originally posted by blindfaith  

??  So we shouldn't celebrate the Passover because we don't need to sacrifice a lamb anymore?  Why not?  [/B]

Maybe you have to study first What the Passover meant! The Passover is still actually. Read Ex.12:46; Ps 34:20; John 19:33 Jeremia 31:33: Luc.22:20;

We have to celebrate Pesach. Easter is rubbish...

[Talmid HaYarok]

Originally posted by Homie
Id have you know that there are Palestinians living and working in Israel and they do vote.

I believe the people you are referring to are Israeli Arabs, not Palestinians. Palestinians are not given citizenship by any country and as a result can't vote (not that you could vote in Arab countries anyways).

 Granted not all Palestinians are terrorists,

Which is the crux that is often overlooked in people's justification of, or desired treatment of the Palestinian people. For instance a common trick of terrorists its to use houses of those suspected to be friendly to Israelis (perhaps working in Israel, or doesn't speak against Israel) as sniping positions. Then the Israeli military comes in and demolishes their homes as a matter of policy. The innocent people living in those homes are made to suffer by both sides. :( It is also true that many Palestinian Christians have suffered greatly for not wanting to take a side.

but how can the state of Israel know which ones are and which ones aren't?

In many cases you can't, but should every Jew be branded a terrorist because of people like Baruch Goldstein or some extreme Kach activists?

In many cases Israeli also can help those whom they know not to be terrorists. For years (until recent violence) Palestinian gunmen have killed more Palestinians suspected of being "collaborators" with Israel than Israeli soldiers have killed Palestinians. Israel has never moved to stop these "Collaborator" killings and it should be one of their first moves IMO.  

They cannot and therefore they have to have strict guarding of the roads, for security reasons.

I'm not against roadblocks, checkpoints do save lives. (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=234934&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=234934) So please don't dare insinuate that I'm against them.

Checkpoints don't block all traffic, they do their best to determine who is a terrorist and who isn't. Its exactly the type of behavior I'm for. I'm against policies like automatic housing demolitions that treat all Palestinians as hostile. If you pray and hope for the eventual peace for Israel, then Israel can not assume all Palestinians to be enemies.

Do you honestly believe that when the Lord returns and establishes his everlasting peace that there will be no members of the Palestinian people in his Kingdom? Let me assure you there will be and that all members of his Kingdom will live in peace.

No, but Israelis are not bringing suffering upon the Palestinians, they are bringing it upon themselves, and they will not rest until Israel is wiped off the map.

This is the exact type of stereotyping and judgementalism I'm talking about. The Arab governments may want to eliminate Israel, but don't judge and convict all their people. Especially in non-democratic countries where the people don't even have a say.

Though it should be bad enough to make these kinds of judgements of any people as a whole (let people be judged for their sins, not their nationality and sins of their neighbors). You're also judging many Palestinian brothers and sisters in the Messiah.

I pray for Peace in Israel, not for the Jewish people, nor just for the Christian people, but rather for all people that they might live as the Lord intended.

[Homie]

talmid
I'm not against roadblocks, checkpoints do save lives. So please don't dare insinuate that I'm against them.
:scratch: I am sorry if I misunderstood you but when you said:
As far as working in Israel, thats hard to do when travel in and out of Palestinian cities is closed.
I thought you were against checkpoints. As I often hear this from people, using it as an argument to show how evil the Israelis are.

I believe the people you are referring to are Israeli Arabs
But Palestinians are Arabs. They have never been their own people, never been a country, no flag, no feeling of nationality, until the Israelis officially became a state. The term Palestinians is quite new, is it not?

Do you honestly believe that when the Lord returns and establishes his everlasting peace that there will be no members of the Palestinian people in his Kingdom?
VERY FEW. How many Palestinians are christians, a handful? It is a predominantly muslim society with little tolerance of other faiths.
Though it should be bad enough to make these kinds of judgements of any people as a whole (let people be judged for their sins, not their nationality and sins of their neighbors). You're also judging many Palestinian brothers and sisters in the Messiah.
:rolleyes: I am tired of that meaningless argument. Must we every time we speak about a people specify that "Every single person may not hold the opinions of the next" or something in line of that. Of course not every Palestinian feels that way, but when we talk of a conflict between two peoples we have to make generalizations. Comment:"Ethiopians are starving." It is needless to point out that NOT EVERY Ethiopian is starving.

[EPHRIAM777]

Israel...doesn't mean "Jewish"

Israel and Jew...are not synonyms...!

ALL Jews are "Israelites"...but not ALL "Israelites"..are Jews...!

ALL Jews are HEBREWS..not all Hebrews are Jews...!

Do you folks actually READ the Scriptures...??

That being said..The EARTH is the Lords and the fullness thereof....It's HIS planet..and he gave that area to the HEBREWS...not just to the Jews..!

[Homie]

So, please define for me: The Jewish and the Hebrews. I know the Israelites are the sons of Israel (first named Jacob) but the others?

[Homie]

Also, who are really the Arabs? I have heard that they are descendents of Ismael. "Arabs" are used in the NT, so maybe the explanation lies in the scriptures somewhere.

[Ruhama]

Right on, Talmid.

Originally posted by Homie
Also, who are really the Arabs? I have heard that they are descendents of Ismael. "Arabs" are used in the NT, so maybe the explanation lies in the scriptures somewhere.

Hmm? Where do you have Arabs in the NT? I know of "Arabia"... but I don't know of this one.

Also, Homie, I am thinking the closure of traffic into Israel from the Territories has more to do with curfews and travel restrictions than checkpoints.

But Palestinians are Arabs. They have never been their own people, never been a country, no flag, no feeling of nationality, until the Israelis officially became a state. The term Palestinians is quite new, is it not?

That's replying to a different idea than one of voting and citizenship. Israeli Arabs (Arabs with Israeli citizenship who live within Israel) can vote. Those in the Territories (Palestinians) are under Arafa'ts jurisdiction and cannot vote in Israeli elections, because they are not Israeli citizens.

[Noa]

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
Israel...doesn't mean "Jewish"

Israel and Jew...are not synonyms...!

ALL Jews are "Israelites"...but not ALL "Israelites"..are Jews...!

ALL Jews are HEBREWS..not all Hebrews are Jews...!

Do you folks actually READ the Scriptures...??

That being said..The EARTH is the Lords and the fullness thereof....It's HIS planet..and he gave that area to the HEBREWS...not just to the Jews..!

Amen :clap: A person from Main is a American, but a Amercan is not always a person from Main!

A Jew (Judah and Levi) is always an Israëli (the rest), but an Israëli is not always a Jew.

[break]I´m sorry I interrupted in this thread few days ago. I was not on this forum for a little time[/break

[Homie]

Noa, it seems that you have knowledge of what I asked, so please answear my questions in post #77 and #78.

Ruhama, Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

In KJV it says "Arabians" but in my Norwegian version it says "Arabere" that directly translates into "Arabs".

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Homie
Also, who are really the Arabs? I have heard that they are descendents of Ismael. "Arabs" are used in the NT, so maybe the explanation lies in the scriptures somewhere.

All Arabs are descendents of Ishmael.

Take for instance Israel - it is surrounded by Arab countries.  Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Irag, Iran, Kuwait, etc... the list goes on and on. 

The following are the covenants God established with Isaac and Ishmael:

Gen 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
Gen 17:2 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
Gen 17:3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.
Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Gen 17:8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:12 "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a {servant} who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
Gen 17:13 "A {servant} who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
Gen 17:15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah {shall be} her name.
Gen 17:16 "I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be {a mother of} nations; kings of peoples will come from her."
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear {a child?}"
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"
Gen 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Gen 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
Gen 17:22 When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.
Gen 17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all {the servants} who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him.
Gen 17:24 Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:26 In the very same day Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
Gen 17:27 All the men of his household, who were born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

[Ruhama]

Originally posted by Homie
Noa, it seems that you have knowledge of what I asked, so please answear my questions in post #77 and #78.

Ruhama, Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

In KJV it says "Arabians" but in my Norwegian version it says "Arabere" that directly translates into "Arabs".

Ahhhh. Okay.

[Homie]

p4Israel, does that necessarily mean that all "Arabs" are descendents of "Ishmael"? It just showed that he had descendents and that they would be fruitful. There were many peoples living in the Middle East.

Ruhama
Ahhhh. Okay.
And what is that suppose to mean?

[Ruhama]

Originally posted by Homie
And what is that suppose to mean? [/B]

LOL, exactly that. I had forgotten that passage.

Still I'd add that Arabs in this context were foreigners, no one really local. The "Arabs" of today carry a different connotation today than the "Arabs" of 2000 years ago.

[Talmid HaYarok]

The bible doesn't contain a Genealogy from ancient Israelites to modern Jews today either.

Like the transition from Israelite to Jew, the Ishmaelite tribes became Arabs somewhere around the same time period. Their own genealogies teach this and it was their historical belief before Islam even came and invented new stories about it.

As for who are the Palestinians, well who are the Basques? aren't they just another Spanish sub-group? The name Palestine comes from the Romans who renamed the region after the Jewish revolts after the Latin word for Philistine - the enemy of the Jews. Up until the last century the word was used to describe all the native inhabitants of the region. Then Arabs propagandists decided to change it to apply only to Arabs and not to the native populations of Jews, Armenians, Circassians, Druze, etc.

Anyways in 1948 many native Arabs were then given the choice to stay in the new Israel and become citizens. When the West Bank and Gaza strip were liberated from their occupiers in 1967 (Heh heh, I decided to turn the commonly slung term around) the Arabs sympathetic to Israel were not given that choice. :(

At one point at least 30% of the Palestinian & Israeli Arab population was estimated to be Christian. That figure is now down to 8% due to emigration of those who feel persecuted and discriminated against by both the Jewish state and Muslim extremists. :(

Remember that in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, nor Arab because we are all equal. This does not change who we actually are, but in his love we are all still equal.

A standard I hope to achieve myself.

[Noa]

Originally posted by Homie
So, please define for me: The Jewish and the Hebrews. I know the Israelites are the sons of Israel (first named Jacob) but the others?

The Israëlites are all sons of Ya´akov (Jacob). He has 12 sons. One of these sons was Judah. De Jews are the descendants of Judah.

The others are the descendants of his other sons :pink:

 

[Homie]

So the tribe of Judah became fruitful and powerful. Much more so than Josef's tribe hmm.

The others are the descendants of his other sons
So I am to understand that the Hebrews are the descendants of the other 11 tribes of Jacob?

[Noa]

Originally posted by Homie
Also, who are really the Arabs? I have heard that they are descendents of Ismael. "Arabs" are used in the NT, so maybe the explanation lies in the scriptures somewhere.

The Arabs are descendants of Ismaël, the first son of Avarham (Abraham). The Israëlites are the descendants of Yitzak (Isaäc), the 2nd son of Avraham. So both are descendants of Avraham. But the Holy Land is promised to the descendants of Avaraham, Yitzak and Ya´akov and these are all Israëli´s incl. the Jews.

Then you have the Edomites. The Edomites are descendants of Avraham, Yitzak and Esaw (Esau).

So:
Avraham had 2 sons: Ismaël and Yitzak. Ismaël is the forefather of the Arabs. Yitzak is the forfather of the Israëli´s and the Edomites. Yitzak had 2 sons: Esaw and Ya´akov (Yisraël).
Esaw is the forefather of the Edomites and Ya´akov is the forefather of the Israëli´s.

Because they are all family, G´d always say: ´... Avraham, Yitzak and Ya´akov...´  Because otherwise the Arabs and the Edomites are able to claim the promises and the Holy Land G´d promised the descendants of Avraham, Yitzak and Ya´akov.

I hope it´s clear now.

 :wave: :pink: 

[Noa]

Originally posted by Homie
So the tribe of Judah became fruitful and powerful. Much more so than Josef's tribe hmm.


So I am to understand that the Hebrews are the descendants of the other 11 tribes of Jacob?

Yes and no. All the decendants of Ya´akov are Hebrew. But the decendants of the tribe Judah (and in fact the Levites too) have the name Jews. So, the Jews àre Hebrews, but Hebrews do not need to be a Jew. They can also be a Benyaminite or a... Simeonite or whatever ;-)

[Homie]

Well I already knew that. What isn't clear is how we know the Arabs are descendants of Ismael, but Talmid posted "Their own genealogies teach this " so I guess that is cleared up. What I still don't know is where do the Hebrews come into play? Who are the Hebrews? Are they a common name for all the descendants of Abraham?

[Noa]

Originally posted by Homie
Well I already knew that. What isn't clear is how we know the Arabs are descendants of Ismael, but Talmid posted "Their own genealogies teach this " so I guess that is cleared up. What I still don't know is where do the Hebrews come into play? Who are the Hebrews? Are they a common name for all the descendants of Abraham?

I already answered your question. The Hebrews are also decendents of Avraham. But also of Yitzak and Ya´akov.

I hope you read my latest post very well, because I gave a very clear anwers about the decendents and the forefathers...

Read it again :idea:

[Talmid HaYarok]

When talking of the "All the Children of Abraham" (which is a false statement, because people only talk about Isaac and Ishmael. His other 22 children aren't counted and their fates are unknown) they are collectively usually referred to as the Semitic people's.

It becomes a problematic term because in Europe the word Anti-Semitism is used to only refer to the Jews (the only Semitic people living in Europe at the time).

Arabs, Jews and Samaritans are all Semitic peoples. Also frequently included in that list are the Ethiopians and debate rages on the Kurds (who may be the lost descendants of Esau - the Edomites).

Though technically the Jews are the descendants of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The three tribes of the Babylonian exile. ;) The vast majority were Judaens, so with the exception of the Priesthood it was quite natural for them to assimilate together. Though at least at the time of the return from exile they kept track of their tribe somewhat as their were a few customs concerning it at the time.

I find it quite interesting to point out that not only has the Lord not broken his covenant to the Jews, but he has not forgotten his blessing regarding the Ishmaelites.

Peace

[Ruhama]

It's my understanding that the Hebrews are the descendants of Eber, one of Shem's great-grandsons.

Relavant verses:
Genesis 10:22-32
The sons of Shem (i.e. Semites) were Elam and Asshur and Arpachshad and Lud and Aram.
... and Arpachshad became the father of Shelah, and Shelah became the father of Eber.
...These are the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, by their lands, according to their nations.

Now I know that Aram, Asshur and Elam were nations. I don't know about Lud, though it's a name of a city.

Abraham is a descendant of Eber, and is called a Hebrew in Genesis 14:13.

In Hebrew: Eber = 'iver, Hebrew= 'ivri (i.e. of 'iver)

On the other side of it, a Jew is someone who is a descendant of Jacob, or someone who has joined himself to that legacy via religion. Name comes from the remnant tribe of Judah (yehuda/yehudi).

[Homie]

Seems to be conflicting ideas among you guys of who is who and what names belong to which peoples ;)

[Noa]

[B]Ruhama said this in Post #94 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=642974#post642974)

It's my understanding that the Hebrews are the descendants of Eber, one of Shem's great-grandsons.



True!

Shem means the Name (HaShem; Thé Name). AntiSHEMist. Anti The Name!!! Oh boy, that is more than to be anti Hebrews :(

[Noa]

Homie said this in Post #95 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643948#post643948)

Seems to be conflicting ideas among you guys of who is who and what names belong to which peoples ;)



No, it is not. Just listen what HaShem has to say.