Against Protestants - Need a List, Please! =) [Archive]

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JustinHesychast

20th June 2006, 05:45 PM

OnTheWay

20th June 2006, 05:55 PM

It might be a touch easier if you ask specific questions. The entire topic of how Orthodoxy is different from any Baptist sect could be a book in and of itself. I've ran across Baptists that believed in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and others that did not for example.

I suppose the beginning of all difference arrives back at the fact Eastern Orthodoxy goes back to Christ and the Apostles. All protestantism goes back to a 16th century German monk named Martin Luther, whom was a little less than stable if you research his biographical information.

JustinHesychast

20th June 2006, 06:03 PM

General things. Some examples: salvation, sacraments, litrugy, worship forms, purgatory (not sure if this is EO or not), etc. Just some of the major doctrinal beliefs.

ClementofRome

20th June 2006, 06:27 PM

Ano,

You might want to see the STICKYS at the top of the TAW homepage. They contain a wealth of information.

To ask for a blow by blow in a short night is a bit much my good friend! :)

The Prokeimenon!

20th June 2006, 07:05 PM

"What Orthodox Christians Believe" (http://www.protomartyr.org/believe.html)

Hope this helps!

Rdr Moses

ps- thier "links" page (http://www.protomartyr.org/links.html)has a lot of short Orthodox tracts about Mary, worship, etc.

seashale76

20th June 2006, 08:04 PM

Eucharist: The Real Presence as opposed to the Baptist view of symbolic/memorial only.

Scriptures to back up the Orthodox view:

Luke 22:19-20

John 6:51-66 (Jesus made it very clear here that he was speaking literally. He lost many disciples over this.)

Hebrews 10:19-25

Genesis 4:18/Psalms 110:4/Hebrews 7:3 (Refers to Melchizedek who offered Abraham bread and wine and is spoken of in Psalms and Hebrews showing that Christ's covenant was superior to that of the Levitical Priesthood. Meaning, through Christ's body and blood he is our High Priest forever.)

I Corinthians 11:19-30 (Paul is taking the Corinthian Church to task for using church as an opportunity to eat, drink, party, and then not share with those who didn't have anything. From the passage, it seems like they were abusing the Lord's Supper to the point of damnation. He warns them of the danger of partaking uworthily and goes on to point out that many people in that church were very sick or dead because of this major sin. It's pretty clear that a mere symbolic act wouldn't kill a person. However, this passage makes perfect sense when you consider that they were abusing the body and blood of Christ.)

eoe

21st June 2006, 10:34 AM

AS - It sounds like you want us to list our beliefs so that you can then take that list to your relative so that they can tear them down and show you why they are "wrong". How is that a fair request? How would that help you? If there is noone to defend those beliefs what have you got but more slanted material?

Try these 2 questions:

1 - Was a faith once delivered to the Apostles?
2 - Did Jesus allow that faith to disappear from the planet?

Try just those 2. See what you come back with.

If the answer to 1 is "Yes" and the answer to 2 is "No" then you have some history to dig through.

HandmaidenOfGod

21st June 2006, 12:20 PM

Also, there is a difference between being "very religious" and knowing about religion. Your aunts may be devout Christians who are rock solid in their faith -- that's wonderful! Whether or not they have studied the doctrines and beliefs of all the different sects of Christianity is another. So they may be able to tell you alot about their faith, but they may not be able to tell you about others.

Orthocat

21st June 2006, 01:11 PM

yes, I was concerned with the title "against protestants". I am not "against" anyone, even though I don't always agree.

Where i come from the Orthodox are virtually unknown, and the baptists/church of christ/assembly of God run the joint.

It would be interesting to know if this is a recon mission to supply arrows and darts to those who would attempt to prove us wrong.

Forgive my cynical nature if I am wrong.

HandmaidenOfGod

21st June 2006, 01:31 PM

Also, we generally try to shy away from speaking in the negative; i.e. "we are against this, we are against that" but prefer to speak in the positive. "This is what the Orthodox Church believes..."

As others have said, start with the stickies on TAW, go to oca.org, goarch.org, antiochian.org, review the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, and then go from there.

eoe

21st June 2006, 01:42 PM

but prefer to speak in the positive. "This is what the Orthodox Church believes..."

Which we typically do by being negative: "God is not...."

^_^

Sorry.... I had to.

HandmaidenOfGod

21st June 2006, 02:30 PM

Which we typically do by being negative: "God is not...."

^_^

Sorry.... I had to.

^_^

Orthocat

21st June 2006, 05:54 PM

Would you believe it was reading the "God is not" threads in GT that helped me make the change???

Thank you for those....

So here I am, and it's all your fault!!! :P

Dewi Sant

21st June 2006, 06:33 PM

One of the first things I was told when I started to attend the Orthodox church was not to be against Protestants.

It is not Christian to be against another.

It is not Christian to believe that you are better than another person (the opposite is more Christian).

In England, the Orthodox church is very much a minority, it is mainly Church of England and Roman Catholics who are dominant over here. And I love them both very much (though I probably love the Romans more).

Philip

21st June 2006, 08:38 PM

Hi there. :wave:

Welcome to TAW.

Thus, I plan on calling one of the above mentioned people tonight, with what I hope will be a list. You see, I am asking TAW to compose a list of things Easter Orthodox(ians?) believe.

Eastern Orthodox or just Orthodox. I assume it is a typo, but we are not very fond of the word 'Easter'.

This list should have the belief stated, how it differs from the Baptist/or other Protestant beliefs, and Scriptural (preferred, and if so book/chapter/verse info please) or historical references. I will print out everyones' list and bring up these points and Bible verses to one of the above mentioned family members.

I am not really sure this can be down. Orthodoxy has such a different worldview from Western Christianity in general and Protestant Christianity in particular that I do not believe such an enumeration is possible.

As for Scriptural or historical references, we believe that the entirety of God's revelation to us supports Orthodoxy. When the Scriptures are read from an Orthodox view point, Orthodoxy flows forth from them. The same can be said of Christian Tradition. It seems pointless to me to throw quotations back and forth in an effort to convince oneanother of a particular interpretation.

General things. Some examples: salvation,

We believe that salvation is an ongoing process that leads to participation in and communion with the Holy Trinity. We do not speak of being saved from Hell. Rather, we speak of being saved to life.

sacraments,

We believe that the entire Christian life is a mystery, a sacrement. Through it we experience the Divine Energy (Actions) of God. Through it we are made alive. Traditionally, we hold forth seven Mysteries as exemplary models of the Christian life. These are Baptism, Chrismation, Reconciliation, Marriage, Ordination, Unction, and (most importantly) the Eucharist. God has blessed us with these sacrements and through them we experience His Grace.

litrugy, worship forms,

We are extremely liturgical. Our liturgy has not undergone a major change in the last 1600 years. We believe that the liturgy is reflective of Heavenly worship. Because we are liturgical, our worship is focused entirely on God. Ideas such as the concepts that worship should be 'inspiring', 'seeker-friendly', or 'relevent' our foreign to us. Such ideas place human reaction at the center of worship. If you wish to read our liturgy, you can find it here (http://yourpage.blazenet.net/chrysostom/liturgy.html)

purgatory (not sure if this is EO or not),

Purgatory is a Western innovation that results from the Western tendency to view salvation as a judicial matter.

Just some of the major doctrinal beliefs.

Again, it is easier if you ask directed questions.

The Virginian

23rd June 2006, 10:35 AM

Hi there. :wave:

I was raised and am continuing to go to a Baptist church. Recently I have been heavily exploring all aspects of Christianity. Lucky for me, can always ask my Uncle Will (youth pastor at my church), my Uncle Allen or Aunt Bec (very religious), or a friendly pastor. I prefer asking my family. Also lucky for me, I have been exposed to nearly all views, albeit briefly, of Christianity. So even when I ask any of those four people, I know they're slanted in their views. Also very lucky for me, I stumbled upon CF! :thumbsup:

Thus, I plan on calling one of the above mentioned people tonight, with what I hope will be a list. You see, I am asking TAW to compose a list of things Easter Orthodox(ians?) believe. This list should have the belief stated, how it differs from the Baptist/or other Protestant beliefs, and Scriptural (preferred, and if so book/chapter/verse info please) or historical references. I will print out everyones' list and bring up these points and Bible verses to one of the above mentioned family members.

It may sound a tad silly, but I'd be extremely grateful if anyone were to help me on this. I know the views and lists I get here may be slanted as well, but that is, sort of, the whole point - me getting varying viewpoints. I also think it will be mighty fun to bring up all of these points and Bible verses to one of my uncles or aunts to see how they combat them. :P

Many, many, MANY thanks!! :hug:

That which you're asking has been ably pointed out by others; therefore, I will give just two, which seem to me to be at odds with what is found in Scripture and what many Protestants say they believe. Well, alright three!

Mary: Orthodoxy gives a special place to the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus/God, which Protestantism objects to. However; it's plainly stated in the Scriptures, by this same person "...from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." The other half of this argument concerns Jesus Himself, who stated that "...I and the Father are one." This means then that Jesus was God (Hebrews 1:1-3) If then this is true, and Scripture cannot lie; the place of blessing given to Mary in Orthodox worship is totally biblical. (Luke 1:46-55; John 10:30)

Theosis, or deification: The holy Apostle John wrote that to those who received the Word of God, "... to them He gave the right to be called the children of God, even to those who believed on His name." (John 1:12,13) Paul who received his instruction in the Gospel from Jesus Himself, states "...and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ...." (Romans 8:15-17) This means then that Peter is righ on when he tells the Asian Church "...For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificant promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the coruption that is in the world by lust...." (2 Peter1:2-4) This process of partaking in the divine nature, we Orthodox call theosis. Be fully aware we're not saying that we become little gods, only that having received the Holy Spirit of God and adopted as His children, as heirs we share in his nature. Protestants ot having fullly developed this part of their theology, only say that Christians "grow in Christlike-likeness".

Faith and works: "...But My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back My soul has no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38) "What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?...you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." (James 2:14-26) Faith is not a stagnant belief, but is alive, active, and powerful, which is the type of faith that pleases God.

WarriorAngel

23rd June 2006, 06:01 PM

Hi, just stepping in if I can. :wave:

You would do well to remember something. :) IF the EO and RC have it wrong, yet are so close.... then how could that be?

Ask your family why both Churches hold such close beliefs even though they are not one Church anymore.

Surely the Apostles teachings can be proof of this.

Peace all!

JustinHesychast

23rd June 2006, 08:17 PM

I don't understand the Orthodox Theosis...

Oblio

23rd June 2006, 08:32 PM

Theosis - Achieving Your Potential in Christ (http://theosis.riewe.com/index.htm)

Happy Orthodox

23rd June 2006, 10:00 PM

I don't understand the Orthodox Theosis...

*murmurs* you think we understand it ourselves?..

Sooo, AS, it seems that you wouldn't get a nice tidy "list" of doctrines here :scratch: . Because Orthodox faith isn't expressed by statements. Like it was already said, it is very different as a whole from Western Christianity, and it takes years (years!!!) for a Westerner to come close to the full understanding of Orthodox faith. That's why it's quite impossible to tell you in a few paragraphs what our faith is.

Compare Aikido and a complex of exercises to lose waight. I know, it's a bad example, oh, well, that's all I can think of right now. The complex of exercises consists of a list of movements that you should do: put your arm here, your leg there, move your body like that, ect. Aikido, on the other hand, is not like that. You can't learn it by just repeating the movements. It's a whole attitude, a whole system that one can't disassemble into little pieces. The praxis (actions) is not separate from the attitude. Thus you need to experience Aikido, go to classes, listen to the teacher, learn it by practice. This is what Orthodoxy is like compared to Protestantism. So, being a Protestant, you approach Orthodoxy as one who wants to lose waight and needs a neat list of exercises. At best, it is a long read before you understand what Orthodoxy teaches. But you'll never know the essense of Orthodoxy without experiencing it.

But I'll say a couple of things that I always say to inquirers. Orthodoxy is THE faith once delievered to the Saints. Nothing added, nothing taken away. Preserved by the wondrous Holy Spirit Who created Earth and Heaven, the original faith was passed down intact from the Apostles and survives till this day in the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church dates back to the Pentecost, and it had never changed a single thing that was taught by the Apostles, including the way of worship, sacraments, candles, insense, icons, and, of course, the Bible.

Hope this helps...

Oh, yeah, Theosis. Remember Christ's touching prayer on the mountain before His suffering? He asked the Father to preserve us, His flock, and make us one with God, even as the Trinity is one. This is theosis -- being one with God, and other faithful, in Heaven. Some people achieve that oneness here on earth. But this explanation is not sufficient. It's like a little introduction.

In other words, good luck...