Anglican Converts

[gtsecc]

As much as I would like to pour more gasoline on the burning and sinking ship, lets not let this thread devolve into that sort of discussion.

What I am interested in is:


How long it took you personally to convert once you realized there was no hope for the AC to return to orthodoxy.
How in the heck do you walk away from an orthodox parish that has prayed with you and loved you for years?

[ThePilgrim]

I say this in all seriousness: Would the be interested in coming with you? Orthodoxy has received whole Anglican parishes before, and will likely do it again. It can't be comfortable for them being where they are.

[gtsecc]

I say this in all seriousness: Would the be interested in coming with you? Orthodoxy has received whole Anglican parishes before, and will likely do it again. It can't be comfortable for them being where they are.
Absolutely, however, I think practical concerns will make the process take a few years, and they will go to Roman Catholicism, if some sort of Orthodox Anglcianism doesn't arrise from the ashes. Western Rite Orthodoxy is theoretically possible in the Anti-Ochian Church, but I think it is a much more difficult process than going to Rome. There is also the problem of the Priest's retiremnt fund, and the property, etc... And, Anglican Priests have on average 3 times the salary of Orthodox Priests.

[Orthocat]

heh heh heh, wonder what piqued your curiosity my brother??? :)

I always considered the Anglican church to be the middle way, somewhere inbetween the EO and RC, because I studied both. The more I studied the EO however, the more I began to think, "hey, this is the same way I believe!"
Michael Ramsey was always my favorite ABC - he leaned toward the EO in this beliefs and teachings and when I began studying them I realized that's why I like Michael Ramsey...for his Orthodox leanings.
During this time, the Anglican/Episcopal church began going through....what it is going through. I began spending my spiritual time of fellowship simply defending the faith - not Orthodox faith, not Anglican faith, but the faith and truth of Christianity historical. The divinity of Christ, the Virgin birth, the resurrection, things I felt I shouldn't have to defend to other "christians". At the same time my rector began giving sermons on the beauty of gay love, and once even compared God's love for us to the love of two gay males he knew. Then he did something really bad and my family left. We went to an anglo-catholic parish and it was great. I love the rector, the church family, however - they were still part of ECUSA, which I now considered apostate. I was to be confirmed, and have hands laid on me by an ECUSA bishop. I began to question "transferrance" of the Holy Spirit by a group that no longer seemed to have it. I was called, in no uncertain terms, a donatist. Ok, whatever.
On a whim, still studying the east, I called an Antiochian church bout an hour away. Father said, come on down, and here I am.
Yep, we loved the people in the anglican church, but it simply bothered me (or the Spirit did) that I did not believe like they do. We left some friends behind, but we have gained a family that has the same beliefs as we do, and when my kids go into class I know what they will be taught.
Many anglicans go to Rome. I couldn't. I have nothing personally against Rome - being blessed by JPII and all, but some doctrines I don't agree much with. Like original sin, the Theotokos, salvation, and the Vatican II changes, to name a few :) .
And now I believe, after all my years, that I have finally found what I searched for all my life.
To me, this church is the culmination of the church, the church, the one tradition speaks of, etc.
I can still vividly recall my first visit, how moved I was...

wow, hey, does that answer your questions???

[Orthocat]

and oh, I love the food!!

[ThePilgrim]

Absolutely, however, I think practical concerns will make the process take a few years, and they will go to Roman Catholicism, if some sort of Orthodox Anglcianism doesn't arrise from the ashes. Western Rite Orthodoxy is theoretically possible in the Anti-Ochian Church, but I think it is a much more difficult process than going to Rome. There is also the problem of the Priest's retiremnt fund, and the property, etc... And, Anglican Priests have on average 3 times the salary of Orthodox Priests.
Would they seriously consider Western Rite Orthodoxy? What diocese of the Antiochians would you be under?

I'm not sure that it would be a whole lot more complicated for them.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Have you read "Facing East" by Frederica Mathewes-Green?

[gtsecc]

Have you read "Facing East" by Frederica Mathewes-Green?
That is actually the Summer reading for the parish.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

That is actually the Summer reading for the parish.

See, so y'all might be ready to convert in time for the new Liturgical year on Sept 1! :P

[Ebor]

Orthodoxy has received whole Anglican parishes before....

Whole Anglican parishes? I know of the Campus Crusade/Evangelical group that Gilquist was part of came in toto. May one ask what Anglican parishes that you know of went EO as a unit please?

The Mathewes-Greens did not take most of their parish with them, for information's sake. I know them and the parish where he was the rector.

Ebor

[Ebor]

I'm sorry. I keep getting a picture in my mind of vultures circling over a wagon-train looking for what.. "prizes"?

Yes, an Anglican started this thread. It is still painful.

Ebor

[Happy Orthodox]

heh heh heh, wonder what piqued your curiosity my brother??? :)

I always considered the Anglican church to be the middle way, somewhere inbetween the EO and RC, because I studied both. The more I studied the EO however, the more I began to think, "hey, this is the same way I believe!"
Michael Ramsey was always my favorite ABC - he leaned toward the EO in this beliefs and teachings and when I began studying them I realized that's why I like Michael Ramsey...for his Orthodox leanings.
During this time, the Anglican/Episcopal church began going through....what it is going through. I began spending my spiritual time of fellowship simply defending the faith - not Orthodox faith, not Anglican faith, but the faith and truth of Christianity historical. The divinity of Christ, the Virgin birth, the resurrection, things I felt I shouldn't have to defend to other "christians". At the same time my rector began giving sermons on the beauty of gay love, and once even compared God's love for us to the love of two gay males he knew. Then he did something really bad and my family left. We went to an anglo-catholic parish and it was great. I love the rector, the church family, however - they were still part of ECUSA, which I now considered apostate. I was to be confirmed, and have hands laid on me by an ECUSA bishop. I began to question "transferrance" of the Holy Spirit by a group that no longer seemed to have it. I was called, in no uncertain terms, a donatist. Ok, whatever.
On a whim, still studying the east, I called an Antiochian church bout an hour away. Father said, come on down, and here I am.
Yep, we loved the people in the anglican church, but it simply bothered me (or the Spirit did) that I did not believe like they do. We left some friends behind, but we have gained a family that has the same beliefs as we do, and when my kids go into class I know what they will be taught.
Many anglicans go to Rome. I couldn't. I have nothing personally against Rome - being blessed by JPII and all, but some doctrines I don't agree much with. Like original sin, the Theotokos, salvation, and the Vatican II changes, to name a few :) .
And now I believe, after all my years, that I have finally found what I searched for all my life.
To me, this church is the culmination of the church, the church, the one tradition speaks of, etc.
I can still vividly recall my first visit, how moved I was...

wow, hey, does that answer your questions???

Reps!!! :thumbsup:

[InnerPhyre]

I'm sorry. I keep getting a picture in my mind of vultures circling over a wagon-train looking for what.. "prizes"?

Yes, an Anglican started this thread. It is still painful.

Ebor

If we could, we would bring every man woman and child on earth joyfully into the Orthodox Church. Say what you will. That is our mission.

[ThePilgrim]

Ebor, you've got to understand:

From our point of view, orthodoxy in the Anglican Church is more or less dead. Women priests and bishops, tolerance for and promotion of homosexuality, very liberal views of Scripture, etc.

We don't rejoice over it, but at the same time, we are going to try to throw a lifeline to those who may be caught in this situation. This isn't meant to be offensive, this is genuine Christian concern for Christians seeking the fulness of the faith.

I know *of* several parishes that have converted, but can't remember where I found that information right now.

One that I can point out to you is a parish in Virginia that was received as catechumens for the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarage on March 5th.

Grace and peace,
John

[gzt]

are you sure it would be a difficult and time-consuming process for the parish to convert en masse to Orthodoxy? the financial problems and such that you mention are difficult to overcome, but actually converting doesn't seem that difficult if you contact the right authorities. one parish i know of undergoing the process right now [http://qatlqitlqutl.blogspot.com/2006/06/houston-wr-mission-group-photo.html] seems to be doing it very quickly indeed.

[Monica, child of God]

Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. --Romans 12:15

[Ebor]

If we could, we would bring every man woman and child on earth joyfully into the Orthodox Church. Say what you will. That is our mission.

As it is the mission of any Christian to bring others to Christ. But at times it reads like "You have to become like US in everything, become Greek or Russian or other eth, West=Evil/EO=Good, there is Nothing Good in "Western Christianity".

I have read EO who say that only they are Christian and no-one else. And others who say that only the Byzantine liturgy is acceptable to God, that its chant and prayer is the only kind He hears (this was many years ago on another forum, not here.). I have read far too many EO declaring that other EO are not Orthodox because they do not belong to the writer's jurisdiction or disagree on some point or other, often things that have nothing to do with the faith in the Creeds.

But there is a difference when so many are saying things against another person's Church, some of which are not true, and most of which to not apply to most Anglicans on this planet. How would any here feel if others were predicting the demise of their jurisdiction/Church and speculating on how many converts from EO their group would get?

I have a person flaw, I suppose. I have been to many EO services and I cannot worship there as I can in an Anglican/"western" service. I also do not belive that there is only one way to worship God.

Again, I suspect that this in not the forum in which I should be posting this particular item. My apologies.

Ebor

[Ebor]

Ebor, you've got to understand:

From our point of view, orthodoxy in the Anglican Church is more or less dead. Women priests and bishops, tolerance for and promotion of homosexuality, very liberal views of Scripture, etc.


I do understand this viewpoint. It's the same one that many RC have as well. I have read things that I have to check the top of the page or the info sheet to see if the writer is EO or RC, some things have been so alike. But you are judging the Anglican Communion on the US and a few scattered other places that end up in the news or on the 'net. How much do you know about most of the rest of the AC?


We don't rejoice over it, but at the same time, we are going to try to throw a lifeline to those who may be caught in this situation. This isn't meant to be offensive, this is genuine Christian concern for Christians seeking the fulness of the faith.


The "Fulness" of the Christian faith, whatever that means. The RCs say that they have that too.

You say it isn't meant to be offensive. Imagine if someone said things like that to you? How do you deal with people, real Human Beings who *do* believe and have for a long time, who are not non-Christian? (though, as I wrote, I've seen EO writings that say only you are Christian). You see it as throw a lifeline. One might be careful then that it doesn't come across as more notches in a belt or more "prizes" to be taken.


I know *of* several parishes that have converted, but can't remember where I found that information right now.


If you should recall any of them I would appreciate knowing about it. Thank you. I recollect reading something on-line about the parish in Virginia.

However, I also know of many many EO who have said things like the WR has no place in EO and that only the Byzantine liturgy is acceptable and more along that line.

respectfully,

Ebor

[Ebor]

Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. --Romans 12:15

thank you for this, Monica. I haven't seem much of that the last couple of days.

Ebor

[Orthocat]

Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. --Romans 12:15
The sad problem with this is that if you could hear/read the Episcopal church members - they are not mourning over the recent developments or over the new election; they are rejoicing.
The few faithful that are left inside are not rejoicing though. They feel they have nowhere left to turn.

I am saddened though for those who feel trapped inside and spiritually dying. It's like a mining disaster.

[Orthosdoxa]

I also know of many many EO who have said things like the WR has no place in EO and that only the Byzantine liturgy is acceptable and more along that line.


Many many? I've been Orthodox for over 3 years, and I don't personally know ANYONE who feels that way. I've seen it once, maybe twice, from loud-mouthed yokels on the internet.

I also have never met anyone who says that EO are the only real Christians. Of course we think we have the fullness of the apostolic deposit left for us - why would we be Orthodox if we didn't? If I thought it was somewhere else, I'd be somewhere else. But I haven't even seen anyone on the internet claim that no one else is a Christian at all, though I don't doubt you that some have.

(Please, just remember, stuff you read about Orthodoxy on the internet is not what Orthodoxy actually is. It is experiential and has little to nothing to do with intellectual knowledge.)

I'm shocked that you see our love for our Holy Faith as looking for "notches on the belt". I came to Orthodoxy broken and shattered by what hard-core, hateful Baptist beliefs had done to me. I've said it before - Orthodoxy brought me back from the brink of madness. I don't go knocking on others' doors with cute tracts and bumper-sticker sayings. But if someone comes looking for hope and answers, you bet I'm right on it. If you see that as vulture-like behaviour, I'm sorry. I see it as love, and hoping to help other people. (And before yet another person gets offended, I am not saying anything about ALL Baptists; I am referring to my own experience only.)

I don't read all the posts here; I'm bedridden. I'm sorry if some have hurt you. But I feel that your perceptions are off. The internet is a lousy place to learn about Orthodoxy.

LK

[ThePilgrim]

Many many? I've been Orthodox for over 3 years, and I don't personally know ANYONE who feels that way. I've seen it once, maybe twice, from loud-mouthed yokels on the internet.

I also have never met anyone who says that EO are the only real Christians. Of course we think we have the fullness of the apostolic deposit left for us - why would we be Orthodox if we didn't? If I thought it was somewhere else, I'd be somewhere else. But I haven't even seen anyone on the internet claim that no one else is a Christian at all, though I don't doubt you that some have.

(Please, just remember, stuff you read about Orthodoxy on the internet is not what Orthodoxy actually is. It is experiential and has little to nothing to do with intellectual knowledge.)

I'm shocked that you see our love for our Holy Faith as looking for "notches on the belt". I came to Orthodoxy broken and shattered by what hard-core, hateful Baptist beliefs had done to me. I've said it before - Orthodoxy brought me back from the brink of madness. I don't go knocking on others' doors with cute tracts and bumper-sticker sayings. But if someone comes looking for hope and answers, you bet I'm right on it. If you see that as vulture-like behaviour, I'm sorry. I see it as love, and hoping to help other people. (And before yet another person gets offended, I am not saying anything about ALL Baptists; I am referring to my own experience only.)

I don't read all the posts here; I'm bedridden. I'm sorry if some have hurt you. But I feel that your perceptions are off. The internet is a lousy place to learn about Orthodoxy.

LK
(Psssttt... How are the kids?

Still praying for you guys!)

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread

[Ebor]

The sad problem with this is that if you could hear/read the Episcopal church members - they are not mourning over the recent developments or over the new election; they are rejoicing.


It would seem that you are not reading the same publications and blogs and news services that I am. There is plenty of not-rejoicing going about.

From what you wrote earlier, you seem to indicate that you attended but were not formally confirmed in any Episcopal parish. May I ask how long you were attending any Anglican parish? Thank you in advance. I have been Anglican for over 30 years.


The few faithful that are left inside are not rejoicing though. They feel they have nowhere left to turn.


There are more then just a "few". And as I wrote there is the rest of the Anglican Communion, around the world.
There is a great deal of anguish and tension and more going on then you seem to think. No offense intended.

Ebor

[The Prokeimenon!]

(Psssttt... How are the kids?

Still praying for you guys!)

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread

The kids are doing great, thanks for asking- but most of all, thanks for praying! Please don't stop.

Okay, now back to the thread.

Rdr Moses, father of many nations

[Ebor]

Many many? I've been Orthodox for over 3 years, and I don't personally know ANYONE who feels that way. I've seen it once, maybe twice, from loud-mouthed yokels on the internet.


Forgive me, but our experiences have been quite different. I have been reading EO on-line, books on the subject and know both "cradle" and converts for something like 16 years or more. If you have seen it only once or twice then you are fortunate. Here is the link to a statement by a Greek Orthodox prelate forbidding any of his priests from celebrating liturgy with any "Western Rite".
http://www.holy-trinity.org/modern/western-rite/news-encyclical.html

There are more then just "loud mouthed yokels" on-line who will maintain that EO has no place for any "western rite". It is not as uncommon as you may think. And the persons saying it cannot be deemed "yokels" when many of them are very educated (and opinionated I grant you. :) )


I also have never met anyone who says that EO are the only real Christians.


Well, I have, and more then one. Some have gone so far as to say that non-EO don't worship the same God since they don't have the EO understanding/dogma etc about Him.


Of course we think we have the fullness of the apostolic deposit left for us - why would we be Orthodox if we didn't?


I know this. And the RCs believe that they have the "fullness".


(Please, just remember, stuff you read about Orthodoxy on the internet is not what Orthodoxy actually is. It is experiential and has little to nothing to do with intellectual knowledge.)


I know about EO and the 'Net. In fact that may apply to many subjects and the 'Net. ;) I disagree though that it has "little or nothing to do with intellectual knowledge" else why would there be so much written and spoken? To say that it is only "experiential" might seem to make it some kind of "gnosis".


I'm shocked that you see our love for our Holy Faith as looking for "notches on the belt".


I'm sorry that you are shocked. It is not the "love for your faith" that seems that way, it is the "how many Anglicans that leave might become EO" that is that way. I have also seen some EO things, granted 'fringey' for some of them, that have things aimed or focused on appealing to Anglicans/persons of English/British Isles background.

It is unfortunate indeed that you had such a bad experience with a Baptist group.


I don't read all the posts here; I'm bedridden. I'm sorry if some have hurt you. But I feel that your perceptions are off. The internet is a lousy place to learn about Orthodoxy.


My sympathies on your condition. I hope that there will be some healing/improvement.

I repeat, I do not get all of my information off of the 'Net. My "perceptions" are my own from my own experiences and readings. I will not say that yours are off because of our different lives. They are what they are

With respect,

Ebor

[zhilan]

There is an Orthodox parish near me that I have been to that converted as a church to Orthodoxy. Not from Anglican though, but from Evangelical Pentacostal Fundamentalist. The priest there is great. I dont know your exact situation, but if you want to talk to him for some advice about converting as a parish you can PM me and I can give you his email address. He was one of the first people I talked to about Orthdodoxy and he's a really cool guy! (well, all the priests i've met have been!)

[choirfiend]

More than healing/improvement, there will be birth! 2 of them! Wohoooo!

[Vasileios]

I know about EO and the 'Net. In fact that may apply to many subjects and the 'Net. ;) I disagree though that it has "little or nothing to do with intellectual knowledge" else why would there be so much written and spoken? To say that it is only "experiential" might seem to make it some kind of "gnosis".

um, "gnosis" means knowledge. If anything it means the opposite. Gnostics after all exalted intellectual knowledge, secret teachings, the key to knowing God they said was to know more.

And Orthodoxy really has little or nothing to do with intellectual knowledge. You could know the entire collection of church fathers by heart and understand them. Even profess your belief in them. That still does not make you Orthodox. On the other hand, even the most illiterate or simple person can be Orthodox when he or she lives and participates inside the Orthodox Church.

And that is something everyone will tell you.


I'm sorry that you are shocked. It is not the "love for your faith" that seems that way, it is the "how many Anglicans that leave might become EO" that is that way.

I confess, I keep wondering how many Anglicans might come to the Church. The more they come, the more I'm going to give thanks to God. I also confess that I wish you joined Orthodoxy.

I dont see how you can presume to interpret that as looking at them (or you) as prizes. Forgive me, but maybe you shouldn't judge people so easily. In this case you are passing a very severe judgement. That we are somehow interested to have a populus, dynamic, prestigious or whatever church instead of being truly happy that people might find the Truth (we do believe we have it after all...).

Stop and think if you are not feeling unhappy or maybe even angered at the situation in your church (for whatever reason, I'm guessing the current tension and strife among the community is enough) and you don't project these feelings on us.

If I may attempt to express my impression of your words here, you seem frustrated that the Anglican Church is showing signs of splits and leaks (meaning people considering leaving it) and you are trying to hold it together, not to disintigrate.

On the other hand, we here are witnessing the same thing (the splits and leaks that is) and we are opening our arms in welcome, because I assure you, we are truly happy to see everyone coming.

And what happens (again my impression and I beg your forgiveness if I am mistaken) is that you turn around and look at us as if we are coming in the night to steal anglicans. Because of your frustration you do not stop to look at us really, but you make a hasty judgement, we are the calculating EOs, dogmatic and full of ourselves like those you have met in your life and that is that.

Even if that were true, and it isnt, I think you are still passing undue judgement. Especially after some people here explained to you that they are welcoming people, not collecting prizes.

Look at your words: "'It is the how many anglicans...' that *is* the way". Is it really? How do you know? You think you have understood Orthodoxy by reading books and assessing church politics and yahoos? You dismiss us like "oh, another RC deal that claims this strange fullness" and thats that?

Forgive me for my words. Honestly. I am telling you what I understand from what I read. I honestly don't know if I am right with my impression of you and I certainly don't want to judge you. I say these things because I get this impression, you can know what is really true about you.

Maybe I am a stuck-up Orthodox but it is unfair to accuse Orthodoxy for wishing to embrace brothers and sisters in the Truth that is Christ and His Church. You may not believe this is the Church but you certainly know that we believe it is, don't you?


I have also seen some EO things, granted 'fringey' for some of them, that have things aimed or focused on appealing to Anglicans/persons of English/British Isles background.

I am honestly curious. What are these things? From just that I am not sure that is a bad thing. Unless you mean they knock on their doors and say "hi, did you check our latest Anglo-friendly thing?", I dont find making someone more comfortable with his heritage a bad thing.


I repeat, I do not get all of my information off of the 'Net. My "perceptions" are my own from my own experiences and readings. I will not say that yours are off because of our different lives. They are what they are

Well, I'll be the arrogant one here then and may God forgive me:

Your perceptions about Orthodoxy are wrong. I will agree that they are your own though.
Forgive my tone. I just dislike relativism very much.
Anonykat's "perceptions" are more valid because they come from experience in Orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy cannot be what every one thinks or perceives it is. Despite your readings you missed that whatever a fringe community says, or even a bishop, or even a whole jurisdiction, Orthodoxy cannot be understood outside of her. That is the experience the books cannot tell you.

Fr. Porfirios wrote "I can tell you that honey is sweet, that it is liquid, that has this and that property but if you do not taste it, you will not know what honey is"

Again, I ask for your forgiveness if my words and thoughts made you bitter. That would not be my intention but in my fallen nature I usually mess things.

[Ioan cel Nou]

I have also seen some EO things, granted 'fringey' for some of them, that have things aimed or focused on appealing to Anglicans/persons of English/British Isles background.

Ebor,

What sort of things do you mean and why do you think it's bad? The only thing that I can think of like this is the website of a ROCOR church in Felixstowe that goes out of its way to promote the pre-Schism western saints that many Orthodox forget about. Wouldn't you agree that that's a good thing? I don't think it's aimed at Anglicans at all but rather at all Orthodox in the British Isles, but I'm certainly not about to start regretting it if it does attract the odd Anglican. I would point out that the work in promoting the western saints on that website is greatly appreciated at my parish even though it is heavily ethnic, me being one of only two non-Romanians there. Such things are not necessarily about poaching parishioners from the Anglicans.

I grew up attending the Anglican church even though I was brought up Lutheran by my mother (hard to find Lutheran churches in England). I was even confirmed in the Anglican church and my experience of Anglicanism is clearly not yours. I never, even back in the 80s could figure out what Anglicans were actually supposed to believe, many believing things that by my faith were highly unorthodox (including some prominent English heirarchs). I think even back then those who were faithful to orthodox Anglicanism were a minority and with all the changes that have happened since, this minority can only have shrunk. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case in other parts of the communion, such as the African churches, but it certainly seems to be the case here and, from what I've read about the US, over there too.

James

[buzuxi02]

If anglicans want to convert, the door to Orthodoxy is open and they must conform to orthodoxy not us conform to the anglicans.

"Western rite orthodoxy" is not the solution. The liturgies of our Orthodox christian faith teaches the complete and whole faith. This is how Orthodoxy was preserved in times of persecution whether it was from Islam or Communism. In order to know what an Orthodox Christian believes, one needs to know who, what and how he worships. This is the cure for the ailing secular christianity of the west. Not a western protestant rite "revised" book of common prayer.
An Orthodox liturgy needs to do more than simply NOT teach heresy.

[Oblio]

I'm curious as to what specifically is unOrthodox about Western Rite Liturgies. Or non-Byzantine Vestments (as referenced in an earlier link). It is clear that the First Christians neither used the same Liturgy or the same Vestments that are used today. Neither one of them dropped out of the sky with the KJV from the Thomas Nelson truck. ISTM that much of the opposition to Western Liturgy is couched in the same vacuous argument that is behind the Old Calenderist movement. IOW, since it came from the West, it is a Ecumenical Trogan horse.

[Orthocat]

It would seem that you are not reading the same publications and blogs and news services that I am. There is plenty of not-rejoicing going about.

From what you wrote earlier, you seem to indicate that you attended but were not formally confirmed in any Episcopal parish. May I ask how long you were attending any Anglican parish? Thank you in advance. I have been Anglican for over 30 years.



There are more then just a "few". And as I wrote there is the rest of the Anglican Communion, around the world.
There is a great deal of anguish and tension and more going on then you seem to think. No offense intended.

Ebor
ok, let me start this morning with Ebor. Good morning!!

ok, obviously the "leaders" of ECUSA are rejoicing - they are the ones voting for all these things, are they not? Certainly they would not vote for things they do not want? Which would indicate to someone on the outside that the whole church supports these changes because leaders always vote for what their people want, right?

Yes, I will say there are pockets of Anglicans that are saddened. There are also many who have taken the stance, "well, we'll just ride this out like we did with female ordination, abortion, etc..." The problem is, they don't realize they are not riding out anything, but sliding.

The next question, I think - I was an Episcopal/Anglican for oh, 10-11 years. I was an acolyte, swinging the incense around, and a "reader". I was never confirmed, no. I finally went through the classes, but then discovered my bishop had been confirmed by Griswold, who confirmed Robinson and believes in Spong more than God, who doesn't even believe in the Holy Spirit, per se. So we're not exactly talking about one bishop's noncompliance, but the entire upper level of a church. And I apologize, but something in me could not bear the thought of having hands laid on me to pass on whatever it is they would be passing on. With great sadness for leaving friends who were historically Christian, my family and I left, as I wanted to bring my children up somewhere where they were sure of what they believed, and that belief was grounded on historic Christian Truth and tradition - the entire church, just not a few here and there. I, we found it in the Orthodox, and I will go to eternity as a member of this church.

I do understand there are those in the Anglican church grieving - and I have done my grieving already. The Anglican church is a beautiful church, no doubt, and those Christians inside are truly Christian. But ECUSA is not - and I simply decided to let the dead bury the dead - my family and I must get on with our Lord's business, so to speak.

I am currently aware of one continuing Anglican church whose priest has been visiting my church - his entire church is going with the Orthodox. He asked for my prayers during their change, so if everyone here could also just say a quick prayer for a small church in Hot Springs, Arkansas, I and he would appreciate it!

I can't remember the other questions as it is morning here, and I only have one eye open so far...

[choirfiend]

There are 2 churches in Houston that are converting, and I thought they were Anglican/Episcopalian--they're starting a WR mission, I believe.

http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/
He used to be Episcopalian. He's got the articles on the current trends. Check out the article about Alice Lindsey here
http://descant.classicalanglican.net/?p=1881

[gtsecc]

I'm sorry. I keep getting a picture in my mind of vultures circling over a wagon-train looking for what.. "prizes"?

Yes, an Anglican started this thread. It is still painful.

Ebor
Forget the wagon train – behold a sinking ship.
There are 2 other large cruise liners out there.
People are jumping off the sinking ship, and swimming towards one or the other cruise liner and these vultures are really more like life lines thrown out to save us.

I really think ECUSA takes the blame for this thread.
Here I stand; I can do no other.
God help me.
Amen

[gtsecc]

I have a person flaw, I suppose. I have been to many EO services and I cannot worship there as I can in an Anglican/"western" service. I also do not belive that there is only one way to worship God.
I agree.
However the other choice is a church, which is pro-choice. Which is a much more bizarre stance than thinking the Byzantine liturgy is the only way.

[Orthocat]

Forget the wagon train – behold a sinking ship.
There are 2 other large cruise liners out there.
People are jumping off the sinking ship, and swimming towards one or the other cruise liner and these vultures are really more like life lines thrown out to save us.

I really think ECUSA takes the blame for this thread.
Here I stand; I can do no other.
God help me.
Amen
Gtsecc,

I have read enough of your posts to kinda have a feel for you...if that makes sense.
You are in my prayers - you are very much Orthodox - you just haven't figured it out yet!!

Wherever you go...may God be with you my brother.

[choirfiend]

Ebor,

You hang (or hung) out too much at oc.net. It's rather fringey and I find little there of worth reading or debating. If that is one of your main internet sources of Orthhodoxy, I would discount it.

[Jacob4707]

Ebor,

You hang (or hung) out too much at oc.net. It's rather fringey and I find little there of worth reading or debating. If that is one of your main internet sources of Orthhodoxy, I would discount it.

By "oc.net" do you mean:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/ ?

[choirfiend]

Yes. There are only a few posters/threads there that are worth anything. It used to be better, and I used to post much more frequently (I've been approached to be a moderator/administrative role there several times) but I dont find much worthy content there, mostly a lot of weird opinions and unnecessary political elements. The owner operator, when approaching Orthodoxy, converted to a schismatic group, and there is no strong Orthodox authoritative backing.

[Mary of Bethany]

I guess I should add my two cents' worth, since I am an Anglican convert, although my situation was a bit different.

I went from being a Baptist all my life, straight to one of the "continuing churches", and was never a part of ECUSA or any other liberal part of the Anglican communion. So I didn't have that as part of my reason for converting.

Having discovered ancient Christianity, I continued reading about the English church, the Roman church, and eventually the Orthodox church. I was pleased to discover the ancient roots of the English church, but I had difficulty believing that today's Anglican communion had held on to the Apostolic faith. I felt the need to be fully connected to the ancient church if it was possible, and I was considering the Roman church, but I couldn't get past some of the teachings. If I had had to choose between Rome and Canterbury, I would have stayed with Canterbury.

But it turns out there was another choice - Constantinople. Here was the ancient church fully alive today - I didn't have questions about its apostolicity, and I didn't have questions about its teachings. I was able to fully embrace it, and felt without a doubt that if the ancient Church existed, then I absolutely needed to be completely united to it.

I loved my ACC parish. I love the Priest and the parishioners - still. Since my husband is still a member there, I'm able to get together with them a couple of times a year for fellowship. I had absolutely no negative experiences there. But discovering Orthodoxy left me no choice but to join myself to what I believe to be the One Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church - with no doubts.

Mary

P.S. There is a WR church in Fort Worth that did leave ECUSA and convert to Orthodoxy as a parish:

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/

[Ebor]

Ebor,

You hang (or hung) out too much at oc.net. It's rather fringey and I find little there of worth reading or debating. If that is one of your main internet sources of Orthhodoxy, I would discount it.

There are much more "fringey" places out there, I assure you. And I collect information from many places, I don't take one angle only.

Ebor

[gtsecc]

You are out of communion with your Husband?

[Ebor]

More than healing/improvement, there will be birth! 2 of them! Wohoooo!

Ah. Understood. That is indeed a fine thing, though bedridden is no fun.

Ebor

[choirfiend]

There are much more "fringey" places out there, I assure you. And I collect information from many places, I don't take one angle only.

Ebor


Yea, I know, I avoid the more fringey places. And I never said you took one angle only--I'm familiar enough with you from ocnet for years---but you certainly may focus upon and retain the views at which you take offense and discount the views (like the ones expressed here) which are positive and would make you NOT discount Orthodoxy as mired in ethnicity and exclusivism.

[choirfiend]

Ah. Understood. That is indeed a fine thing, though bedridden is no fun.

Ebor

Pray for her and the twins, if you would. It's a very high risk pregnancy and she was "supposed" to not be able to even bear children. God is great indeed!

[Oblio]

Just because there are heterodox fringe groups on the net (e.g. Euphrosynos Cafe) does not validate their views, nor does it mean that Orthodox hold to them, it just means that they are heterodox (and in many cases, wacko).

[Mary of Bethany]

You are out of communion with your Husband?

I assume this question was for me. :)

Yes, I thought he was going to convert with me, but when the time came to be made Catechumens, he declined. For him, fellowship and comfort with the parish was more important than theological or historical concerns. These things were important to me, but not to him. With the blessings of both priests involved, I converted. It's not ideal, but he's in no way antagonistic towards my faith, and he tries to help with my fasts (since he's the cook :thumbsup: ). He sometimes visits with me, at Christmas Vigil and Pascha, and we had our marriage "blessed" by my Priest on our 30th anniversary last year.

Mary

[Ebor]

um, "gnosis" means knowledge. If anything it means the opposite. Gnostics after all exalted intellectual knowledge, secret teachings, the key to knowing God they said was to know more.


I know what the word means. I try to be careful in my phrasing. And the "knowledge" or understanding of what EO really is, you say can only come by experience. The same might be said for really understanding being an Anglican Christian. The "average" Anglican is female in Africa, hardly a situation for lots of eduction.


I also confess that I wish you joined Orthodoxy.


No intention is meant here to be brusque but

Why?


I dont see how you can presume to interpret that as looking at them (or you) as prizes. Forgive me, but maybe you shouldn't judge people so easily.


And people haven't been passing judgement on the Anglicans?


In this case you are passing a very severe judgement.


You see it as judgement. I am saying how words are reading to me. I am trying hard to always see the person behind the words and not judge *them*. Words on the 'net can be taken in different ways easily since we do not have the cues that are present in person.


Stop and think if you are not feeling unhappy or maybe even angered at the situation in your church (for whatever reason, I'm guessing the current tension and strife among the community is enough) and you don't project these feelings on us.


I am unhappy about what is going on. There is a great deal of uncertainty and distress. Finding persons of other Churches bringing it up might sometimes look like schadenfruede.


If I may attempt to express my impression of your words here, you seem frustrated that the Anglican Church is showing signs of splits and leaks (meaning people considering leaving it) and you are trying to hold it together, not to disintigrate.


Might one ask how you imagine what you might feel if your jurisdiction was being talked about in the news and 'net and it's death already declared? If your Church had public comments from all sides criticizing and labeling and generalizing? What would your feelings be when people leave EO?

Monica posted a passage with Empathy. It was helpful and kind.


And what happens (again my impression and I beg your forgiveness if I am mistaken) is that you turn around and look at us as if we are coming in the night to steal anglicans. Because of your frustration you do not stop to look at us really, but you make a hasty judgement, we are the calculating EOs, dogmatic and full of ourselves like those you have met in your life and that is that.


I'm afraid that your impression is not entirely correct. But that is part of the problem with 'net postings.


Look at your words: "'It is the how many anglicans...' that *is* the way". Is it really? How do you know?


Experience. Things that have happened in my life.


You dismiss us like "oh, another RC deal that claims this strange fullness" and thats that?


You see that as a dismissal. It is not. It is a fact that both the EO and the RC claim to have the "fullness" and that they are the Best/Right/Truest form of Christianity. One may be correct in this or the other. But not both. And there's also the possibility of neither. I apologize for any offense in that statement. It is not intended, but I wanted to clarify that I am not "dismissing".


You may not believe this is the Church but you certainly know that we believe it is, don't you?


Yes, I know that. And that is one of the reasons that I am uncomfortable continuing in this thread because this is your forum, not mine. But my Church was being discussed. How would you feel if the tables were turned?


I am honestly curious. What are these things?


The "Deathbed Confession of Edward the Confessor" for one. It is on the ROAC site (I am fully aware that ROAC is outside of the main body of EO. They, on the other hand, say that most EO jurisdictions are not really Orthodox. I did say that some are "fringey". :) ) It is used to try and show that the Anglo-Saxons were just as EO as any today but it is a passage without any documentation, any provenence and it differs greatly from the one found on the on-line RC encyclopedia NewAdvent which does have a citation for manuscript in the Bodleian Library irrc. This piece also has flat out mistakes that can be checked against the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

Not to put too fine a point on it, lacking any real data, that piece is a lie.

I dont find making someone more comfortable with his heritage a bad thing.


More comfortable with another's heritage or trying to make it something that isn't true?


Your perceptions about Orthodoxy are wrong. I will agree that they are your own though.
Forgive my tone. I just dislike relativism very much.
Anonykat's "perceptions" are more valid because they come from experience in Orthodoxy.


I used the wrong word here. The lady I was answer has her experiences and I have had mine. That is what is different. My apologies for a lack of clarity. With the right word, I do not see how there is any 'relativism' with what two people have experienced in real life.


Fr. Porfirios wrote "I can tell you that honey is sweet, that it is liquid, that has this and that property but if you do not taste it, you will not know what honey is"


A useful passage to remember in many things that people know or do or experience. Thank you.

As I wrote, I try very hard to keep the idea that it is another Human Being on the other end of a post in my mind. I also try to not respond immediately when postings may lead to strife or tension.

Ebor

[Ebor]

Ebor,

What sort of things do you mean and why do you think it's bad? The only thing that I can think of like this is the website of a ROCOR church in Felixstowe that goes out of its way to promote the pre-Schism western saints that many Orthodox forget about.


I know of that site. I hear the parish has changed its name from St. Felix and ? to a more Russian saint, St. John the Wonderworker, I don't know why.

Some seem to present the pre-schism western saints as EO rather then merely Christian saints of an earlier time. You may recall some of the discussions of Pre-1066 England on OC.net and elsewhere.


Wouldn't you agree that that's a good thing? I don't think it's aimed at Anglicans at all but rather at all Orthodox in the British Isles, but I'm certainly not about to start regretting it if it does attract the odd Anglican. I would point out that the work in promoting the western saints on that website is greatly appreciated at my parish even though it is heavily ethnic, me being one of only two non-Romanians there.


It's nice to read that it is appreciated. Are the Romanian parishioners taking any Early British Isles saints as patrons or names? If that is too personal a question, I apologize and withdraw it.

I'm pretty sure that this is not the case in other parts of the communion, such as the African churches, but it certainly seems to be the case here and, from what I've read about the US, over there too.

James

Thank you for some of your background. As you say, it is not the case in all of the AC. nor is it the case in *all* of the US or England.

Ebor

[Ebor]

If anglicans want to convert, the door to Orthodoxy is open and they must conform to orthodoxy not us conform to the anglicans.

"Western rite orthodoxy" is not the solution. The liturgies of our Orthodox christian faith teaches the complete and whole faith. This is how Orthodoxy was preserved in times of persecution whether it was from Islam or Communism. In order to know what an Orthodox Christian believes, one needs to know who, what and how he worships. This is the cure for the ailing secular christianity of the west. Not a western protestant rite "revised" book of common prayer.
An Orthodox liturgy needs to do more than simply NOT teach heresy.

And there is an example.

Ebor

[Ebor]

I'm curious as to what specifically is unOrthodox about Western Rite Liturgies. Or non-Byzantine Vestments (as referenced in an earlier link). It is clear that the First Christians neither used the same Liturgy or the same Vestments that are used today. Neither one of them dropped out of the sky with the KJV from the Thomas Nelson truck. ISTM that much of the opposition to Western Liturgy is couched in the same vacuous argument that is behind the Old Calenderist movement. IOW, since it came from the West, it is a Ecumenical Trogan horse.

Yet it is a Trojan Horse that keeps showing up, isn't it? And there are people and groups that will fight tooth and nail and anathematize other EO who disagree with them on such points.

As I wrote, a poster on GEnie long ago wrote that Byzantine Chant *was* handed down by angels which made it the *only* acceptable kind. He was Greek Orthodox.

Ebor

[Nickolai]

Yes. There are only a few posters/threads there that are worth anything. It used to be better, and I used to post much more frequently (I've been approached to be a moderator/administrative role there several times) but I dont find much worthy content there, mostly a lot of weird opinions and unnecessary political elements. The owner operator, when approaching Orthodoxy, converted to a schismatic group, and there is no strong Orthodox authoritative backing.

I find the only person on OC.net that I will make me go into a thread after he posted is The young fogey, and Anastasios if it's on a canonical question (Even if he is a schismatic, he did get a good education from St. Vlad's).

Reader Nikolai

[Orthocat]

I'm curious as to what specifically is unOrthodox about Western Rite Liturgies. Or non-Byzantine Vestments (as referenced in an earlier link). It is clear that the First Christians neither used the same Liturgy or the same Vestments that are used today. Neither one of them dropped out of the sky with the KJV from the Thomas Nelson truck. ISTM that much of the opposition to Western Liturgy is couched in the same vacuous argument that is behind the Old Calenderist movement. IOW, since it came from the West, it is a Ecumenical Trogan horse.
ha!!
I got hit by that truck when I was a kid. "Authorized" was imprinted down my back...
Took a bit of reconstruction to get it off.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Ok, so you've made your point. There are those who have fringe and erratic beliefs about the West and those outside the Orthodox Church.

Is this the norm? No.
Is this Orthodox dogma? No.

I would invite you to attend your local Orthodox parish in town to learn more about Orthodoxy, should you desire to do so. For it is only in parish life that you will experience the fullness of Orthodoxy.

Otherwise, God bless you on your journey with Christ. :)

[Nickolai]

Yet it is a Trojan Horse that keeps showing up, isn't it? And there are people and groups that will fight tooth and nail and anathematize other EO who disagree with them on such points.

As I wrote, a poster on GEnie long ago wrote that Byzantine Chant *was* handed down by angels which made it the *only* acceptable kind. He was Greek Orthodox.

Ebor

Those people don't represent Orthodoxy though. In fact, neither do we. The Saints do. We are just a bunch of theology geeks who make mistakes (well, me at least).

Reader Nikolai

[Orthocat]

Those people don't represent Orthodoxy though. In fact, neither do we. The Saints do. We are just a bunch of theology geeks who make mistakes (well, me at least).

Reader Nikolai
great point. We all make mistakes brother, we all do.

[Ebor]

Ok, so you've made your point. There are those who have fringe and erratic beliefs about the West and those outside the Orthodox Church.


How is a Bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church "fringe" one wonders. He is one in authority is he not?


Is this the norm? No.


What is a "norm"? When clerics and laypeople are against or for something how is it not normal for them?


I would invite you to attend your local Orthodox parish in town to learn more about Orthodoxy


As I have stated, I have been to EO services. I have attended Ukrainian, Antiochian both Byzantine and WR, OCA, ROCOR, Greek and even a Serbian Wedding. That is how I know that I cannot worship in a Byzantine liturgy the way I can in an Anglican/"western" one.

Yet there are those who would say to me "That's the only way to be a Christian with "fullness".


Otherwise, God bless you on your journey with Christ. :)

Thank you

Ebor

[Ebor]

Those people don't represent Orthodoxy though. In fact, neither do we. The Saints do. We are just a bunch of theology geeks who make mistakes (well, me at least).

Reader Nikolai

How does anyone not "represent" something that they are known to be part of in what they do? People and their words are the "faces" of EO or Anglicanism or any other Religion or group.

What we do that is good or evil can easily be reflected onto what we are a part of.

Are not Christians the "members" the hands and voices of the Body of Christ?

Ebor

[Windlord]

How does anyone not "represent" something that they are known to be part of in what they do? People and their words are the "faces" of EO or Anglicanism or any other Religion or group.

What we do that is good or evil can easily be reflected onto what we are a part of.

Are not Christians the "members" the hands and voices of the Body of Christ?

Ebor

I suppose you could also say that it is true of Anglicanism as well, that it is the Saints of the Anglican Church that represent the true nature of Anglicanism. That is a rather interesting way of looking at it. Although whether that is accurate or not is another thing entirely. I suppose that there is probably some truth to both views.

Peace,

Windlord.

[Ebor]

I find the only person on OC.net that I will make me go into a thread after he posted is The young fogey, and Anastasios if it's on a canonical question (Even if he is a schismatic, he did get a good education from St. Vlad's).

Reader Nikolai

Oh no, I am lacking in something that you don't post in threads where I am! <insert emoticon of remorse> Just kidding. ^_^ Maybe it's threads that I mostly stay out of.

;)

Ebor

[Orthocat]

Ebor,

I am curious as to what you seek here.

I understand you are well versed in debate being Anglican but what is it you seek?? You say you cannot worship in our church, so what exactly is your goal? To show we are human and make mistakes? We are well aware of that.

The eastern way is not the western way. Do not try to understand the east through the eyes of the west.

[Ebor]

Ebor,

I am curious as to what you seek here.

I understand you are well versed in debate being Anglican but what is it you seek??


Being Anglican does not guarantee any "debating" skills. We are all individuals, not a monolithic block. Could you please try to see me as not like your mental picture of "Anglican" please? You have stated that you have anger and trouble from your horrible experience with one person who did an evil thing with your son. We are not all like that person or other people you had problems with. Thank you.

In the EO forum, my Church is being discussed and declared dead. Sweeping generalizations are being put forth and rumours are passed off as documented fact. How would *you* feel if it was your Church being so discussed in the Anglican or any other Forum? Is this a case of doing as you would have others do to you?


You say you cannot worship in our church, so what exactly is your goal?


Yet I'm told that people want me to become EO. Why?

Would you really want to convert to a group that is saying things about where you are at present?


To show we are human and make mistakes? We are well aware of that.


That is not my place. But why should aspersions and blanket statements go unchallenged?


The eastern way is not the western way. Do not try to understand the east through the eyes of the west.

East and Western Christianity are still made up of Human Beings who have some of the same characteristics and motivations and brokeness. Some things are in common.

Ebor

edited for spelling and grammar

[ClementofRome]

MOD HAT ON

Just by way of reminder folks, this is not a debate forum. I know that I didn't have to say that, but since the term "debate" was brought into the discussion....well, you know the rest.

MOD HAT OFF

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I say lets all take a deep breath and walk awaaaay from the debate...

[Ebor]

MOD HAT ON

Just by way of reminder folks, this is not a debate forum. I know that I didn't have to say that, but since the term "debate" was brought into the discussion....well, you know the rest.

MOD HAT OFF


I understand that. I apologize for any "debate" that may be in my posts.

Ebor

[Ioan cel Nou]

I know of that site. I hear the parish has changed its name from St. Felix and ? to a more Russian saint, St. John the Wonderworker, I don't know why.

Nor do I. I've a feeling that it has to do with wanting to celebrate St. John because of his presence in London in the past. I could find out, if you like, as I correspond with Fr. Andrew on behalf of our parish council fairly often.


Some seem to present the pre-schism western saints as EO rather then merely Christian saints of an earlier time. You may recall some of the discussions of Pre-1066 England on OC.net and elsewhere.


I see them as Orthodox, but not Eastern Orthodox, if you get the distinction I'm making - they were most certainly western. The thing is that as all the Church was one (barring the OOs) pre-Schism, it's just as correct for us to refer to everyone as Orthodox as it is for RCs to refer to them as Catholic. I understand why you object to the anachronistic views of some Orthodox, and you certainly have a point. In general, though, I do see a greater similarity (because we have not changed radically in the way the RCC has) between pre-Schism western saints and us as opposed to the RCs. I'd also add that I find that traditional, orthodox, high church Anglicans likewise seem to be closer in this respect.


It's nice to read that it is appreciated. Are the Romanian parishioners taking any Early British Isles saints as patrons or names? If that is too personal a question, I apologize and withdraw it.

Well most are immigrants so, not really. There is one family (other than mine, and my wife's Romanian too remember) that has a child with a western saints name, and many of the western saints have been added into the calendars published by the Romanian Metropolitanate of Western and Southern Europe, of which our parish is part.


Thank you for some of your background. As you say, it is not the case in all of the AC. nor is it the case in *all* of the US or England.


I appreciate that. I know that there are still some traditional Anglicans around, even in England, it just seems that they are few and far between (and I still have frequent contact with them as we use a church belonging to an Anglican monastery) and, as I said, it has seemed this way for a very long time. The current tragic suituation in the US is merely exacerbating a problem that was already there. For what it's worth, whilst I would certainly welcome any individual Anglican converts, I would rather pray for the return of Anglicanism as a whole to orthodox Christianity.

James

[buzuxi02]

dear Ebor,
What im interested in learning is why cant you worship in an EO church like you do now in your present church?

I know anglicanism is considered high church and liturgical so i would think many things are similar. (but i may be wrong)

For instance in a black assemblies of God church there will be much stomping and clapping and dancing, A charismatic pentecostal church there will be of speaking in tongues etc etc. So worshipping in those churches would be radically different.
And you are right, most of the Orthodox heirarchy outside of Antioch do not accept the WR. (many reasons for this). But what are the differences that you are refering to?

[Oblio]

I am fully aware that ROAC is outside of the main body of EO.


Not quite true, ROAC is outside Eastern Orthodoxy, period. There is no main body, followed by auxilliary, ancilliary bodies. There is simply the EO Church, if a group is outside the body, it is outside the Church.

[zhilan]

What is ROAC? I haven't heard of that before.

[choirfiend]

Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church---non-Orthodox who use the name Orthodox.

[OnTheWay]

And people haven't been passing judgement on the Anglicans?

I don't think it's a condemnation to denote the fact that the Anglican church has largely become a church that cannot service the spiritual needs of anyone adhearing to traditional Christianity. Women priests, practicing homosexuals made bishops, a mythical view of Scripture, and the like make it an environment that is not conductive to traditional belief. For example, there is no room with Orthodoxy to debate whether Christ is the risen Lord. Whereas in the Anglican community the position that the story is mythical or symbolic is an acceptable one.
As such I think you'll find a lot of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and other Traditional Protestants are edger to provide something to Anglicans that hold a traditional belief that their current confession can no longer give them. I can see where that zeal could be seen as judgement. However, I do believe it is largely just a strong desire not to see someone's faith weakend by the goings on of the Anglican church of late.

[Orthocat]

I don't think it's a condemnation to denote the fact that the Anglican church has largely become a church that cannot service the spiritual needs of anyone adhearing to traditional Christianity. Women priests, practicing homosexuals made bishops, a mythical view of Scripture, and the like make it an environment that is not conductive to traditional belief. For example, there is no room with Orthodoxy to debate whether Christ is the risen Lord. Whereas in the Anglican community the position that the story is mythical or symbolic is an acceptable one.
As such I think you'll find a lot of Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and other Traditional Protestants are edger to provide something to Anglicans that hold a traditional belief that their current confession can no longer give them. I can see where that zeal could be seen as judgement. However, I do believe it is largely just a strong desire not to see someone's faith weakend by the goings on of the Anglican church of late.
Thank you. I agree.
The new leaders' sermon about "Mother Jesus" (that is not referencing Julian of Norwich but Wiccan beliefs) and the fact that the leaders refused to acknowledge (voted down) that Christ is the One True Way are examples that is not compatible with Orthodoxy.

No one has passed judgement on the Episcopal Church USA. They are doing it themselves.
And I have no personal vendetta against anyone there. The homosexual priest my family encountered has tied his own millstone around his neck. It was not my doing.

[Theophorus]

In the EO forum, my Church is being discussed and declared dead. Sweeping generalizations are being put forth and rumours are passed off as documented fact. How would *you* feel if it was your Church being so discussed in the Anglican or any other Forum? Is this a case of doing as you would have others do to you?



Yet I'm told that people want me to become EO. Why?

Would you really want to convert to a group that is saying things about where you are at present?

The Anglican Church lost its churchness with open communion. The rest is just a result of this mindset. Most Anglicans will go Roman Catholic because of the perceived failure of the collegial ecclesia.

As a result, many will be blind to the miracle of of the Orthodox Church, where the collegial ecclesia has continued to function and preserve the faith.

That is because the Head of the one Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is Christ. And it is guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Oblio]

Would you really want to convert to a group that is saying things about where you are at present?



If you were about to go down with your ship, would you disdain a sailor who came upon you with his seaworthy vessel and said: Ahoy, your ship's afire and sinking fast, would you like to come aboard ??

[vanshan]

If you were about to go down with your ship, would you disdain a sailor who came upon you with his seaworthy vessel and said: Ahoy, your ship's afire and sinking fast, would you like to come aboard ??


A-hoy, Matey! Yer ark has arrived. ^_^


Basil

[eoe]

Would you really want to convert to a group that is saying things about where you are at present?

I have not seen any official documents coming from the EO Church. This "Group" has said nothing. There have been people in this meaningless little microcosm that have said things but as far as the "Group" they have remained silent.

Don't ever take what is said here to be from Orthodoxy in general.

[rusmeister]

Thanks, eoe. Exactly right.

To visiting or lurking non-Orthodox:
It's important to remember that we're just a bunch of jerks, in the parlance of my old men's group. A bunch of sinners prone to mistakes, foolishness and failure. And yes, our individual posting here is NOT necessarily the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Just individual takes on it.

To TAW'ers:
It's important to remember that a lot of visitors, even regular ones, may not keep that in mind. In the interests of being a good witness for the Faith, we need to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Only harsh truth without love (an active force) can be just as fatal as the sappy kind of "love" that sells out the truth.

[OnTheWay]

Thank you. I agree.
The new leaders' sermon about "Mother Jesus" (that is not referencing Julian of Norwich but Wiccan beliefs) and the fact that the leaders refused to acknowledge (voted down) that Christ is the One True Way are examples that is not compatible with Orthodoxy.

No one has passed judgement on the Episcopal Church USA. They are doing it themselves.
And I have no personal vendetta against anyone there. The homosexual priest my family encountered has tied his own millstone around his neck. It was not my doing.

Absolutly, it's not like we're making this up to create a straw man, or even that this is only a small part of the Anglican church. These actions and doctrines are those of the mainstream leadership of the C of E, and the membership at large isn't saying boo about it. I really think it has come to the point were one either leaves the C of E or they agree with this "modernist Christianity."
I have seen people try to "nail" MS and WS Lutherans with stuff the ELCA pulls, and I'd be the first to call it unfair. This isn't a "rogue" branch of the C of E, so I just don't see discussing the actions of that church's heirachary to be judgemental, especially given the lack of any ability to contest that our inteperations of their doctrines and actions are accurate. For some reason I doubt the practicing homosexual bishop would argue with me if I stated that the Anglican community no longer considered bugger to be sinful. As such I fail to see why anyone would be up in arms when we reach out to those Anglicans that are still traditional Christians.