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View Full Version : "Mother, Child and Womb" - Oh, my!


Jacob4707
19th June 2006, 04:08 PM
(That thundering sound you hear is the feet of many Presbyterians coming to the Orthodox Church - maybe)

Presbyterian Church Delegates Stop Short of Approving Gender-Inclusive Language for Worship (http://orangecounty.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D8IBFSK82)

06-19-2006 12:42 PM
By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity - "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" - could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.

Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.
Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."

Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:

* "Lover, Beloved, Love"
* "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
* "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."

Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.

Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."

Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

The Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other troublesome issues.

On Tuesday, the assembly will vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional "presbyteries" some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.

Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval of what they call "local option" would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."
__

On the Net:
Presbyterian assembly: http://www.pcusa.org/ga217

choirfiend
19th June 2006, 04:52 PM
My me, I'm so naive I thought this would be something pro-life....Never even occurred to me that it would be something like this. Craziness.

eoe
19th June 2006, 05:03 PM
This is insane.

InnerPhyre
19th June 2006, 05:06 PM
Gimme an H. Gimme an E. Gimme an R. Gimme another E. Gimme an S....

Dewi Sant
19th June 2006, 05:12 PM
Oh dear!

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 05:41 PM
Gimme an H. Gimme an E. Gimme an R. Gimme another E. Gimme an S....
Maybe I'm tired, but what does HERES spell?

RobNJ
19th June 2006, 05:46 PM
Maybe I'm tired, but what does HERES spell?

He stopped short of Gimme an E, Gimme a Y

Greg the byzantine
19th June 2006, 05:48 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:



:crosseo: Kyrie eleison - kyrie eleison - kyrie eleison :crosseo:

ClementofRome
19th June 2006, 05:50 PM
This does not surprise me in the least. I am very familiar with the history of Presbyterianism in America and this is just the natural progression of things...

RobNJ
19th June 2006, 05:54 PM
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity - "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" - could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Paper, Scissors" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.




:scratch:

The Prokeimenon!
19th June 2006, 06:14 PM
Are the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians involved in some sort of race?

Rdr Moses

ClementofRome
19th June 2006, 07:04 PM
Are the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians involved in some sort of race?

Rdr Moses

Yes, and the United Methodist Church is right behind them...at least for the moment, the UMC radical left is not winning the day.

Happy Orthodox
19th June 2006, 07:50 PM
Who can hear that! That's insanity http://forum.sotovik.ru/images/smilies/sweet/furious.gif
Here's one rotten fruit of Sola Scriptura!

Matrona
19th June 2006, 07:53 PM
Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:

* "Lover, Beloved, Love"
* "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
* "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."

For a second there, I thought one of those said "Rock, Paper, Scissors", and I was like "WHAAAAAT?!" :D

RobNJ
19th June 2006, 07:59 PM
For a second there, I thought one of those said "Rock, Paper, Scissors", and I was like "WHAAAAAT?!" :D


See post # 10 ;)

DonVA
19th June 2006, 09:44 PM
:scratch:

Melethiel
19th June 2006, 09:49 PM
:eek: :doh: :eek: :sick: ...

rainbowbright
19th June 2006, 09:49 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 09:50 PM
Тобі треба піти до дома!

Melethiel
19th June 2006, 09:52 PM
Тобі треба піти до дома!
Хто? :scratch:

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 10:02 PM
Хто? :scratch:
Ти. Ти бачиш що буде и у вас. Я серезьно кажу.

prodromos
19th June 2006, 10:22 PM
That's insanity http://forum.sotovik.ru/images/smilies/sweet/furious.gif
Here's one rotten fruit of Sola Scriptura!
I don't know if you can really say that, seeing as it is about as far from scriptural as you can get :)

Melethiel
19th June 2006, 10:24 PM
Ти. Ти бачиш що буде и у вас. Я серезьно кажу.
Може я піду до України....Українська Лютеранська Церква не має ці проблеми. :P

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 10:45 PM
Може я піду до України....Українська Лютеранська Церква не має ці проблеми. :P
Ще ні

choirfiend
19th June 2006, 10:47 PM
John,

are you back from your trips?

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 10:58 PM
Nope, haven't left yet! I leave on July 8th for the first trip and then August 3rd for the second one. Between now and leaving, I'm going to DC to see Grete :-)

choirfiend
19th June 2006, 11:19 PM
Saw Gert last weekend. We had some good discussions:)

Melethiel
19th June 2006, 11:19 PM
John, якщо я буду Православною, воно не буде скоро. І я не думаю, що я буду.

ThePilgrim
19th June 2006, 11:35 PM
Да... Я шучу. но какие у тебя проблеми с православием?

Melethiel
19th June 2006, 11:59 PM
Да... Я шучу. но какие у тебя проблеми с православием?
Завтра може cкажу...зараз пізно. І не говори до мене по Російському. :P

buzuxi02
20th June 2006, 01:20 AM
Does this mean they have beat the latins in making the Virgin Mary part of the quartet?
Or does this mean in todays politically correct world that Jesus has 2 "mothers"?
Hypothetically it would suggest 3 wombs. That of God, that of the Theotokos and now the Holy Spirit is a womb as well. strange

I guess: Creator, Logos & Spirit is too theologically sophisticated for the avergae presbyterian.

Orthocat
20th June 2006, 08:03 AM
This is simply the apostasy of America.
The Episcopal, the Presbyterian, the Methodists soon...

However,

Where do you think the true believers will run???



oh, and "rock, paper, scissors" that was funny. But too late. The Metropolitan Episcopal Church in New York
already uses that.

Nickolai
20th June 2006, 08:11 AM
oh, and "rock, paper, scissors" that was funny. But too late. The Metropolitan Episcopal Church in New York
already uses that.

Just curious, what do they feel their theological justification to be?

Reader Nikolai

hausfrau
20th June 2006, 08:19 AM
and to think I was excommunicated by the presbyterians for converting to Orthodoxy.

Orthocat
20th June 2006, 08:53 AM
Just curious, what do they feel their theological justification to be?

Reader Nikolai
That was actually a bit of a joke - this however is the church that does the clown mass with balloons, soap bubbles,and mimes the reading of the scriptures.
If you like mixing the Liturgy with Mardi Gras, go to their website and check it out.

I can't - I have to leave it behind.

HandmaidenOfGod
20th June 2006, 09:34 AM
Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy

Nickolai
20th June 2006, 09:38 AM
That was actually a bit of a joke - this however is the church that does the clown mass with balloons, soap bubbles,and mimes the reading of the scriptures.
If you like mixing the Liturgy with Mardi Gras, go to their website and check it out.

I can't - I have to leave it behind.

Well given that when I was an episcopalian I heard just about every false trinitarian belief possible it wouldn't be out of the question for a particular parish to accept "Rock, Paper, Scissors". Almost everyone I know at my old parish still thinks that the whole "Water, Ice, Steam" thing is a good way to explain the Trinity.

And there's always St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church (http://www.saintgregorys.org/), which is in it's own world entirely.

Reader Nikolai

Orthocat
20th June 2006, 09:50 AM
Well given that when I was an episcopalian I heard just about every false trinitarian belief possible it wouldn't be out of the question for a particular parish to accept "Rock, Paper, Scissors". Almost everyone I know at my old parish still thinks that the whole "Water, Ice, Steam" thing is a good way to explain the Trinity.

And there's always St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church (http://www.saintgregorys.org/), which is in it's own world entirely.

Reader Nikolai
Yes, with all my little kiddies, I was very sceptical of some of the explanations.
Plus I thought the age of eight was just a tad bit too young to be discussing condoms in Sunday School class.
I would prefer them be in a class where they discussed God, religion, etc...instead of how to have safe sex.

Vasya Davidovich
20th June 2006, 02:11 PM
What is the most appropriate response to lunacy?

Laughter?
Tears?
Prayer?

Melethiel
20th June 2006, 02:31 PM
What is the most appropriate response to lunacy?

Laughter?
Tears?
Prayer?
All three?

Orthocat
20th June 2006, 02:38 PM
All three?
I truly believe I actually went insane for a while...

Then someone told me to read "The Orthodox Way"...

I think I'm still insane...but hopefully in a good way...

Vasya Davidovich
20th June 2006, 02:49 PM
My priest says that sin is insanity.

Falling into sin is the work of insanity, and it renders us insane.

Only Christ and His Church can restore us to our right minds.

Orthocat
20th June 2006, 02:58 PM
My priest says that sin is insanity.

Falling into sin is the work of insanity, and it renders us insane.

Only Christ and His Church can restore us to our right minds.
well, I was kinda joking in my post.

I really don't think I'm insane in the psychiatric way...but then those who think they aren't....

Insanity, in a spiritual sense, can come from demonic influence as well as chemical/biological influences...
A good spiritual elder would be able to tell the difference between the two.