Who gets the property?

[gtsecc]

Now that ECUSA is no longer - who gets the property?

[Lel]

Who says ECUSA is no longer? Any citations on that one?

[higgs2]

Now that ECUSA is no longer - who gets the property?
What a tizzy! How can you say eCUSA is no longer LOL! A validly elected and ordained bishop was elected presiding bishop. It's not that big of a deal.

[RadixLecti]

I doubt that the rest of the worldwide Anglican community will allow ECUSA to remain affiliated with it after this move. All Anglican eyes outside the U.S. have been watching ECUSA all week for the repentence demanded by the Windsor Report; this "bishop" election will likely be seen as a slap in their faces.

I would say it's a bit premature to say that ECUSA is out of the communion, but on the other hand I'm not blind, this doesn't look good. The ABC is supposed to give a statement tomorrow about the GC. I guess we'll know more at that time.

[Torah613]

and who cares?

I would shudder to think what we will have to say to God on the day of judgement when we tell Him that we were too busy worrying about what they think of us in Africa to worry about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners etc.

Joe Zollars

[RadixLecti]

I would shudder to think what we will have to say to God on the day of judgement when we tell Him that we were too busy worrying about what they think of us in Africa to worry about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners etc.

Joe Zollars

I would too, but I think the current situation is more complicated than that. ECUSA's decisions are based on what it believes to be right. The rest of the AC also makes its decisions on what it firmly believes to be right. One big issue will be if ECUSA and the AC decide they have enough in common to say they have the same mission and beliefs.

[john23237]

Now that ECUSA is no longer - who gets the property?

Oh, please. The ECUSA existed before there was an Anglican communion and it will exist quite nicely, thank you, after the communion choses to self destruct. We are not the ones who are pointing the gun at our own head, we are not the ones who are blackmailing our fellow Christians with threats, and we are not the ones who's grandchildren will shake their heads in contempt at their forefather's actions. The ECUSA will be here fifty years from now. Can the same be said for the Anglican Communion? I doubt it.

[RadixLecti]

I think since we don't really know what's going on with the Anglican Communion right now, that it would be best if every one took a deep breath and tried to relax. It's easy to react emotionally (in favor of or against) the events taking place at the GC. I think it would be best if we all think carefully about the things we post and speak to each other in a charitable way.

[Simon_Templar]

and who cares?

I would shudder to think what we will have to say to God on the day of judgement when we tell Him that we were too busy worrying about what they think of us in Africa to worry about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners etc.

Joe Zollars

So what are you going to tell the poor, and the naked, and the prisoners as you are feeding, clothing, and visiting them? Jesus loves you and only in him will you find life, and through him you can be transformed into righteousness?

Or are you going to tell them.. Jesus loves you.... but you don't really need to be transformed because, HEY! you're great just as you are! so... Jesus loves you.. enjoy the burger, pants, and I'll see you next week at visiting time!


Those I know who went to the GC have told me that one of the buzzword topics was "reconciliation". Lots of talk and theme focused on reconiliation, but on reconcilliation between people over disagreements.. essentially, "can't we all get along" types of things.. which is all well and good.
The entire point of christianity, however, is to reconcile people to God. If the church doesn't do that, if it doesn't have that as its main goal and focus, it is utterly and totally useless.

There are many many issues floating around, alot of them revolve around the authority of and reliability of the scriptures.. but at the very heart of all these issues is one crucial and unavoidable fact. There is a strong element in the ECUSA, which is currently running the show, that believes (and acts based on their belief) that people are fine as they are and do not need to be changed by God, do not need to be transformed into Christlikeness.

This type of christianity is salt that has lost its savor. It holds that church is a good thing, thats really all about people meeting God on their own terms. True faith, and true religion since the very beginning with Cain and Abel has been about reconciling to God, on God's terms.

Cain and Abel both sacrificed, both tried to worship God.. but Cain did it in his way, according to how he felt it should be done, Abel did it the way God instructed it to be done. God approved Abel, and rejected Cain's offering.
In response Cain became angry that God had rejected his offering. God's response was "why are you angry? if you do well you will be accepted, but if you do not do well, sin lays at the door and he desires to devour you, and you shall dominate him."

We can not earn salvation, we can only accept what God has done, and what he desires to do in us. But to come on your own terms refusing God's work, refusing his instruction is not an issue of grace.

Right now the ECUSA is in the position of Cain. This GC we were faced with the decision, shall we do well? or shall we do as we see fit? Make no mistake sin is laying at the door and it desires to devour the ECUSA.
Things aren't over yet, but many of the things which have been said and done thus far at GC give strong indication of which way the ECUSA is going.

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[PaladinValer]

The church that heads the diocese owns the property, which includes all buildings.

[Aymn27]

The church that heads the diocese owns the property, which includes all buildings.
I believe you are fundamentally correct in almost all the cases - but it will boil down to a state-by-state fight really...for example, the parishes in CA won their property...this is really going to be ugly...I think

[PaladinValer]

Which is probably being appealed, mind you.

[Torah613]

I would too, but I think the current situation is more complicated than that. ECUSA's decisions are based on what it believes to be right. The rest of the AC also makes its decisions on what it firmly believes to be right. One big issue will be if ECUSA and the AC decide they have enough in common to say they have the same mission and beliefs.
Christ should be enough to keep us in common.

One think I have admired about the Anglican Communion is its ability to unite people of differing views on many subjects under one big tent--all united in Christ. You have people like GTSecc that make Rome look Protestant, and people like Naomi who are more evangelical in the expression of their faith. Yet all of them are firm believers in God with much to offer the Church at large. Isn't the name of hte game to love thy neighbor, help the poor, get on with the business of being a Christian?

Joe Zollars

[Naomi4Christ]

So what are you going to tell the poor, and the naked, and the prisoners as you are feeding, clothing, and visiting them? Jesus loves you and only in him will you find life, and through him you can be transformed into righteousness?

Or are you going to tell them.. Jesus loves you.... but you don't really need to be transformed because, HEY! you're great just as you are! so... Jesus loves you.. enjoy the burger, pants, and I'll see you next week at visiting time!


Those I know who went to the GC have told me that one of the buzzword topics was "reconciliation". Lots of talk and theme focused on reconiliation, but on reconcilliation between people over disagreements.. essentially, "can't we all get along" types of things.. which is all well and good.
The entire point of christianity, however, is to reconcile people to God. If the church doesn't do that, if it doesn't have that as its main goal and focus, it is utterly and totally useless.

There are many many issues floating around, alot of them revolve around the authority of and reliability of the scriptures.. but at the very heart of all these issues is one crucial and unavoidable fact. There is a strong element in the ECUSA, which is currently running the show, that believes (and acts based on their belief) that people are fine as they are and do not need to be changed by God, do not need to be transformed into Christlikeness.

This type of christianity is salt that has lost its savor. It holds that church is a good thing, thats really all about people meeting God on their own terms. True faith, and true religion since the very beginning with Cain and Abel has been about reconciling to God, on God's terms.

Cain and Abel both sacrificed, both tried to worship God.. but Cain did it in his way, according to how he felt it should be done, Abel did it the way God instructed it to be done. God approved Abel, and rejected Cain's offering.
In response Cain became angry that God had rejected his offering. God's response was "why are you angry? if you do well you will be accepted, but if you do not do well, sin lays at the door and he desires to devour you, and you shall dominate him."

We can not earn salvation, we can only accept what God has done, and what he desires to do in us. But to come on your own terms refusing God's work, refusing his instruction is not an issue of grace.

Right now the ECUSA is in the position of Cain. This GC we were faced with the decision, shall we do well? or shall we do as we see fit? Make no mistake sin is laying at the door and it desires to devour the ECUSA.
Things aren't over yet, but many of the things which have been said and done thus far at GC give strong indication of which way the ECUSA is going.

What an excellent post, Simon. Sorry, I can't rep you at the moment.

[Inside Edge]

There is a strong element in the ECUSA, which is currently running the show, that believes (and acts based on their belief) that people are fine as they are and do not need to be changed by God, do not need to be transformed into Christlikeness.
I don't attend an ECUSA church, but I have a really, really, hard time believing this.

That is like saying, "there's this Christian Church that says you don't have to believe in Christ to be part of the Church."

I really, really, doubt that is the sentiment which is "running" the ECUSA.

[gtsecc]

I really, really, doubt that is the sentiment which is "running" the ECUSA.
Prepare to be shocked.
We have elected a pro-choice, pro-sex out of wedlock PB.

[Inside Edge]

Prepare to be shocked.
We have elected a pro-choice, pro-sex out of wedlock PB.
Ok, so to be perfectly clear:
1. Are you saying that the newly elected primate discourages celibacy and/or encourages sex outside of marriage?

2. That in addition to those things which you mentioned, she would deny the necessity of a belief in Christ in order to join the ECUSA?

[cenimo]

Inside Edge
I don't attend an ECUSA church, but I have a really, really, hard time believing this.


Haven't you heard the story about the seminary student struggling with his studies and then his fellow students say, "We've figured out your problem...you're the only one here that still belives in God"?

[gtsecc]

Ok, so to be perfectly clear:
1. Are you saying that the newly elected primate discourages celibacy and/or encourages sex outside of marriage?
She has made it perfectly clear that sex outside of Marrige is ok.

2. That in addition to those things which you mentioned, she would deny the necessity of a belief in Christ in order to join the ECUSA?
I am not aware of that statement or her position.