ECUSA elects female PB

[gtsecc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060618/ap_on_re_us/episcopalians


http://www.billmon.org/archives/titanic.jpg

[gtsecc]

Isn't someone going to make Kolyva for the funeral?

[Monica, child of God]

Our doors are open to all orthodox Christians looking for a home :)

M.

[Vasileios]

No offence, but isn't a homosexual bishop ordained in the Anglican Church? Or is it some other branch, I am not very familiar with the structure.

If I do remember correctly though, that would have been the iceberg hit. I have absolutely no idea how you can reconcile an active homosexual with the office of bishop. Lord have mercy...

Maybe it is a wake up call? I cant say if it is a signal that the Anglican Church is beyond reconciliation with the EO or the last straw that will bring a restoration... I confess the first possibility looks more likely.

I hope I did not offend, I am speaking as an Orthodox obviously and I took the liberty of speaking my mind as this is TAW.

[Dewi Sant]

If I do remember correctly though, that would have been the iceberg hit. I have absolutely no idea how you can reconcile an active homosexual with the office of bishop. Lord have mercy...

Oooh! A play on gtsecc's avatar!
^_^.



I personally see that this sort of liberal attitude towards church and clergy is the disease of the church in modern times.
Women have never been given positions of leadership in the church. Women have never been given positions of leadership in the Judaistic synagogues or temples.

Why must we suddenly change now?

[Greg the byzantine]

Isn't someone going to make Kolyva for the funeral?


http://www1.christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76319&d=1150671652

There were no pomegranites at the market so I had to use raisins.


Sylipitiria, my Condolances gtsecc

[Dewi Sant]

^_^

[Dewi Sant]

Forgive my disrespect.

I mean.

:cry: :crosseo: :liturgy: :crosseo: :cry:


Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy.

[rainbowbright]

As a former Episcopalian, I have to say that I didn't think the ECUSA could sink any lower....they're just looking for trouble now.

[eoe]

gtsecc when are you going to just face the fact that you are a closet Orthodox and come over?

Yup - come to the 'dox side - only on the right side - yeah thats the east side....

[Matrona]

I saw "Bishop" Robinson on Larry King a few nights ago. I wish I'd seen it live; I wanted to call in and give him a piece of my mind.

[rusmeister]

Yeah, but they're closer to the truth in many ways than most of the other churches, including Rome.

It's critical to understand what the underlying assumptions are behind the arguments if you're going to talk to a defender of that nonsense. If you accept their assumptions, then you can't win, and they won't even need to listen to you.

Here's my 2 cents (http://rusmeister.blogspot.com/2006/06/missing-point.html).

But Fr Alexander Schmemann has a book on women priests. Don't know other intelligent apologist works dealing with these subjects.
If anyone has links to comments smarter than mine, by all means link to them!

Wish CS Lewis were here.

[Orthocat]

gtsecc,

You know me under an older name of mine, before I found the real truth here in the EO.
This is the place...come in, the water is perfect and no one or nothing is sinking. On the contrary, more and more are finding the beautiful peace of the Truth here.

Our focus is on God, Christ, Spirit, the Theotokos, the saints, the ecclesia, etc. - all that which you have tried to stay focused on.
There is no focus on the spirit of this world, no bad logismoi.

The fight is over now my brother and I know you must be tired of the battle. Let it go and find the peace you deserve. Come find the rest...

May God have mercy on those wounded and scarred from the late Episcopal church. :crosseo:

[gtsecc]

But Fr Alexander Schmemann has a book on women priests. Don't know other intelligent apologist works dealing with these subjects.
If anyone has links to comments smarter than mine, by all means link to them!
I think you are thinking about

Women and the Priesthood by Thomas Hopko (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Thomas%20Hopko&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/103-7729036-4187023)
Which has an essay by Schmemann in it.

[Matrona]

May God have mercy on those wounded and scarred from the late Episcopal church. :crosseo:

Maybe American Orthodox should put this rewrite of "The New Colossus" beside the doors of our churches: "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free of heresy and liturgical corruption..." ;)

[Orthocat]

Maybe American Orthodox should put this rewrite of "The New Colossus" beside the doors of our churches: "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free of heresy and liturgical corruption..." ;)
AMEN!!!

[HandmaidenOfGod]

This really doesn't surprise me. In fact, it was inevitable.

[gtsecc]

She is pro-choice too!

[silouanathonite]

Reminds me of something a priest said. Keep in mind, I am paraphrasing. When you have bad theology, then everything else goes out the window. If your theology changes, then your traditions will change.

Pray for all...

[OnTheWay]

Yeah, but they're closer to the truth in many ways than most of the other churches, including Rome.

I would have to completely and totally disagree with that. Firstly, this new and rising Episcopalian Church is not in any way orthodox. The history channel did a special on the reserrection of Christ, featuring an Episcopalian priest proudly announcing that his church didn't believe in the literal reserrection of Christ, but that it was a symbolic story. I also saw the same man on Politically Incorrect denouncing parts of Holy Scripture as being "wicked." Sodomites for bishops, which while I don't believe women should be priests or bishops, is far more insulting to me. Futhermore, going through and describing all of the mircles of the Gosples as myths is a great blasphemy. These people, which I know do not represent all Episcopalians, are leading the direction of that church and they aren't even Christians by any orthodox definition of the word. For whatever errors the Romans may have at least they aren't ordaining sodomites, pulling for the murder of the unborn, and declaring the Scriptures to be wicked myths.

[Orthocat]

I would have to completely and totally disagree with that. Firstly, this new and rising Episcopalian Church is not in any way orthodox. The history channel did a special on the reserrection of Christ, featuring an Episcopalian priest proudly announcing that his church didn't believe in the literal reserrection of Christ, but that it was a symbolic story. I also saw the same man on Politically Incorrect denouncing parts of Holy Scripture as being "wicked." Sodomites for bishops, which while I don't believe women should be priests or bishops, is far more insulting to me. Futhermore, going through and describing all of the mircles of the Gosples as myths is a great blasphemy. These people, which I know do not represent all Episcopalians, are leading the direction of that church and they aren't even Christians by any orthodox definition of the word. For whatever errors the Romans may have at least they aren't ordaining sodomites, pulling for the murder of the unborn, and declaring the Scriptures to be wicked myths.
agreed. Let's just say I have had a first hand view. --They fight over the divinity of Christ.
They are now having communion where non-christians, such as Bhuddists or muslims are welcome.
They have masses and celebrate communion while dressed in drag and clown suits, blowing soap bubbles at and holding balloons with the cross.

I could go on...but I am tired of it and it makes me sad, and that's why I am here today.
Whatever type of "church" it started out as, it is no longer there.

Pray for those who are lost inside.

[OnTheWay]

agreed. Let's just say I have had a first hand view. --They fight over the divinity of Christ.
They are now having communion where non-christians, such as Bhuddists or muslims are welcome.
They have masses and celebrate communion while dressed in drag and clown suits, blowing soap bubbles at and holding balloons with the cross.

I could go on...but I am tired of it and it makes me sad, and that's why I am here today.
Whatever type of "church" it started out as, it is no longer there.

Pray for those who are lost inside.

It's very sad indeed, but a good chance to witness Orthodoxy. I tend to think within the next decade any remaining Christians within the Episcopalian church will abandon it, it's already happening. If you listen to EWTN you regularly hear about Episcopalian converts to Roman Catholicism. One of the priests that regularly serves in our parish is a former Episcopalian, and I know some former Episcoplians that I went to high school with that have since become members of the MS Lutheran church.

[InnerPhyre]

At its core, Anglicanism is closer to Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism. There has been way too much liberal incursion in the past century though and things are being rapidly watered down.

[Orthocat]

At its core, Anglicanism is closer to Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism. There has been way too much liberal incursion in the past century though and things are being rapidly watered down.
that is true...back in the day it really was. When there were Archbishops of Canterbury like Michael Ramsey who wanted the two to be in communion.
Those days are long gone, sadly enough.
Now it resembles the Unitarian church more than anything else.

[Orthocat]

It's very sad indeed, but a good chance to witness Orthodoxy. I tend to think within the next decade any remaining Christians within the Episcopalian church will abandon it, it's already happening. If you listen to EWTN you regularly hear about Episcopalian converts to Roman Catholicism. One of the priests that regularly serves in our parish is a former Episcopalian, and I know some former Episcoplians that I went to high school with that have since become members of the MS Lutheran church.
In our church we have a former Episcopal priest and family who converted.
Without the turmoil though I would never have found the beauty I have found here.
Our Lord indeed works in mysterious ways...

[rusmeister]

I think you are thinking about

Women and the Priesthood by Thomas Hopko (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Thomas%20Hopko&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/103-7729036-4187023)
Which has an essay by Schmemann in it.

Thanks, gtsecc!

To reiterate what I said about underlying assumptions: If you can identify those you can show lies for what they are. CS Lewis was a master of this (and he was Anglican, old school). He won debates because he didn't always respond directly to opponents' statements, but rather identified the assumptions under the arguments, and cut down those assumptions (like cutting down trees).

In this case, it's the assumption that equality of the sexes is the highest good and that women suffer from being unfairly excluded, and as far as gay priests go, it springs from the idea that homosexuality is what you are, not what you do. And how the heck can you repent of what you are? (I'm sorry I'm white...) The whole language has wrapped itself around that idea. Sodomy is out. Gay is in.
"You have committed sodomy" has become "You are gay". Then it becomes possible to see why various churches buy into these ideas in spite of Scripture (never mind Tradition).

If you find yourself in a situation where you have to discuss this stuff, that might help.

[buzuxi02]

While Anglicanism may 'have' seemed closer to Orthodoxy than RC their ethos never was.

Orthodoxy needs to stop dialogue with these western groups. That they "seem" orthodox when in reality there not. The Old Catholics "seem" orthodox, they even recognize the 7 ecumenical councils (and no more and no less) they accept our creeds yet they are ultra-liberal. Fasting doesnt exist, questioning the virgin birth is natural, abortion is ok, the canons are obselete meant for a previous generation invented by closed minded bishops. I guess the anglicans and old catholics have alot in common but not with us, not with true Orthodox Christianity.
If the Orthodox want true ecumenism with a good possibility of union all we have to do is persuade the non-chalcedon bishops to accept the 4th council in its entirety. And the subsequent 5-7th councils. (COUNCILS WHICH THEY AGREE WITH DOCTRINALLY). Interesting how these churches are so near us and have the same ethos yet we concentrate with westernized christianity.

[Orthocat]

While Anglicanism may 'have' seemed closer to Orthodoxy than RC their ethos never was.

Orthodoxy needs to stop dialogue with these western groups. That they "seem" orthodox when in reality there not. The Old Catholics "seem" orthodox, they even recognize the 7 ecumenical councils (and no more and no less) they accept our creeds yet they are ultra-liberal. Fasting doesnt exist, questioning the virgin birth is natural, abortion is ok, the canons are obselete meant for a previous generation invented by closed minded bishops. I guess the anglicans and old catholics have alot in common but not with us, not with true Orthodox Christianity.
If the Orthodox want true ecumenism with a good possibility of union all we have to do is persuade the non-chalcedon bishops to accept the 4th council in its entirety. And the subsequent 5-7th councils. (COUNCILS WHICH THEY AGREE WITH DOCTRINALLY). Interesting how these churches are so near us and have the same ethos yet we concentrate with westernized christianity.
This is true. While some like I mentioned above pushed to get close to the Orthodox (or Rome) it never succeeded due to the liberal mindset inside the church.
Many of the top Anglicans eventually left to go to Rome or the Orthodox. (ie John Henry Newman).
The church started in political and social turmoil - I'm afraid that is where it will die.
However we do need to keep the dialogue - not talking of communion together, but of the differences and showing them the way of the true beliefs.
You cannot conform to every social change that comes around and continue true worship.
What is missing in them is the part where we are to be "set apart" from the world, and holy - a "peculiar people".

In my travels and studies, being "set apart", "holy", and a "peculiar people" describes the Orthodox, and it's been so beautiful for me. Can I get a witness???

[Orthocat]

oh, here is a piece about the new episcopal lady and her mother, Elaine, who was Orthodox:

"Elaine had converted from ECUSA to the Orthodox Church, and went to church at St. Spiridon Cathedral in Seattle, where I also attend. Her husband had dropped her. It seems he didn't go for her religious change. She had planned to become a nun at the women's monastery in Ellwood City, PA. This was tragically cut short by a small plane crash that ultimately left her unable to care for herself. When she passed away in 1998, her daughter,(Jefforts Schori) then a cleric in Oregon did the funeral rather than get her an Orthodox burial. Now, at the very least this is not honoring her mother, who not only left ECUSA, but also was utterly opposed to women's ordination. That she had her funeral in ECUSA with a woman priest is doubly insulting. The eulogy featured a dismissive comment about mom's 'spiritual journey' that led her even to the Orthodox Church...I expect the same would have been said if she had become a Moonie. I know how she feels about former Anglicans who become *actual* Orthodox, even if it's her mother."


Don't expect any "dialogue" under this person.

[Nickolai]

oh, here is a piece about the new episcopal lady and her mother, Elaine, who was Orthodox:

"Elaine had converted from ECUSA to the Orthodox Church, and went to church at St. Spiridon Cathedral in Seattle, where I also attend. Her husband had dropped her. It seems he didn't go for her religious change. She had planned to become a nun at the women's monastery in Ellwood City, PA. This was tragically cut short by a small plane crash that ultimately left her unable to care for herself. When she passed away in 1998, her daughter,(Jefforts Schori) then a cleric in Oregon did the funeral rather than get her an Orthodox burial. Now, at the very least this is not honoring her mother, who not only left ECUSA, but also was utterly opposed to women's ordination. That she had her funeral in ECUSA with a woman priest is doubly insulting. The eulogy featured a dismissive comment about mom's 'spiritual journey' that led her even to the Orthodox Church...I expect the same would have been said if she had become a Moonie. I know how she feels about former Anglicans who become *actual* Orthodox, even if it's her mother."


Don't expect any "dialogue" under this person.

I was just about to post this.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4300

[Ebor]

Yeah, but they're closer to the truth in many ways than most of the other churches, including Rome.

It's critical to understand what the underlying assumptions are behind the arguments if you're going to talk to a defender of that nonsense. If you accept their assumptions, then you can't win, and they won't even need to listen to you.

Here's my 2 cents (http://rusmeister.blogspot.com/2006/06/missing-point.html).

But Fr Alexander Schmemann has a book on women priests. Don't know other intelligent apologist works dealing with these subjects.
If anyone has links to comments smarter than mine, by all means link to them!

Wish CS Lewis were here.

Thank you for this approach. I appreciate it after reading alot of Schadenfruede in the last two days.

Ebor

[Ebor]

oh, here is a piece about the new episcopal lady and her mother, Elaine, who was Orthodox:



Other then VOL, is anything known about there person who related this story? Was he/she intimately involved in the conversations the two ladies had in the mother's last days? Was this person present at the mother's funeral? What was the context of the phrase "spiritual journey"? Taking things out of context can change the meaning or situation can it not?

*IF* the mother desired an EO funeral and her wishes were not followed then this is not respectful or loving. No question about that. But who here knows what the mother and daughter said to each other as the older lady neared the end?

Ebor

[Orthocat]

Other then VOL, is anything known about there person who related this story? Was he/she intimately involved in the conversations the two ladies had in the mother's last days? Was this person present at the mother's funeral? What was the context of the phrase "spiritual journey"? Taking things out of context can change the meaning or situation can it not?

*IF* the mother desired an EO funeral and her wishes were not followed then this is not respectful or loving. No question about that. But who here knows what the mother and daughter said to each other as the older lady neared the end?

Ebor
I understand as an episcopal/anglican your feelings toward the orthodox anglican website.

You must understand however my brother, that ECUSA no longer upholds historic Christian truths, and in their 2003 convention voted to no longer follow scripture, tradition or reason, but only their own personal interpretations "revealed by the holy spirit" to them (them being the current leadership). The current 2006 convention has confirmed all of that, and now all current indications is that the church will fall apart.

Be at peace brother - if that is what you would follow, then do it. I used to do the same. But know this, you will be in constant turmoil in your own mind having to constantly defend what your church now upholds.
Been there - done that. And I wasn't aware of the constant evil logismoi in my head until I was taken out of it.
It's one thing to be in the church and battle the world. It's another to be in a church battling with each other.


Forgive me.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

[Ebor]

I understand as an episcopal/anglican your feelings toward the orthodox anglican website.


I'm sorry. But you know nothing of me personally nor of my attitude toward VOL. You are assuming based on my writing that the reported "story" in the middle of another article is unsubstantiated and of unknown provenence.

It is important to know where *any* report that puts another Human Being in a bad light is coming from, I submit. It doesn't matter whether one agrees with them or not. Spreading what amounts to a rumour since it is not known who said this or if the source is reliable or a Primary Source is wrong.

VOL can be a source of information and reporting of fact and there can also be the sound of 'grinding axes'. The same may be said for any news source. Discerning reading may sometimes find biases in anyone. It takes care to give just facts and sometimes even the choice of one word over another can shade a meaning.

The rest of your post would suggest to me that you do not know or choose to discount the many American Anglicans who are fighting and trying to keep their Church. You presume what I am without real knowledge.

evil logismoi i


Please explain what this term means. Thank you.

Ebor

[The Prokeimenon!]

Logismoi are intrusive thoughts, usually introduced by demons, which distract us from repentence and are usually mistaken for our own thoughts.

Rdr Moses

[Ebor]

Thank you for the definition.

Ebor

[Orthocat]

I'm sorry. But you know nothing of me personally nor of my attitude toward VOL. You are assuming based on my writing that the reported "story" in the middle of another article is unsubstantiated and of unknown provenence.

It is important to know where *any* report that puts another Human Being in a bad light is coming from, I submit. It doesn't matter whether one agrees with them or not. Spreading what amounts to a rumour since it is not known who said this or if the source is reliable or a Primary Source is wrong.

VOL can be a source of information and reporting of fact and there can also be the sound of 'grinding axes'. The same may be said for any news source. Discerning reading may sometimes find biases in anyone. It takes care to give just facts and sometimes even the choice of one word over another can shade a meaning.

The rest of your post would suggest to me that you do not know or choose to discount the many American Anglicans who are fighting and trying to keep their Church. You presume what I am without real knowledge.



Please explain what this term means. Thank you.

Ebor
You are right, I do not know you, but in a sense I do.
I have listened to the anglicans for long enough. You have smooth tongues and put each other down without seeming to do so all in the spirit of "christian love".
This is cunningness, the son of pride, which has led your church to debauchery.
The anglican church continually has reports of paganism, and all its members say, "Where is the proof? Prove we do not follow Christ - we say all the right words!".
Cookies made for the goddess Astarte, the world council statements that all sex is holy, muslim rugs and buddhist shrines with the communion table, the worship of mother earth, chants to the sun god Ra, the statements of your leaders that you created scripture so you can change it to whatever you want, the new teachings that we are God collectively, that the beloved John was Christ's homosexual lover....

Real knowledge??? I was one of them - I was as real as you could get in that unholiness baby.

My question to you would be...why? Why do you want to stay and fight for communion with these people?
What can you learn from them? Do you believe the Holy Spirit even resides in a church that practices these things???
Do you truly believe that a practicing gay man that believes he is the true christ can lay his hands on you and pass on the Holy Spirit??
Yet the "leaders" of the "real" anglican church do nothing...absolutely nothing. They say, well let's talk and pray some more. Where is your ABC??? Oh, that's right, he's too busy putting down Israel to be concerned with the fires in his church.
The ONLY leaders in your church that act in a Godfearing manner are the ones in Africa....Akinola and Orombi and the like. They are the only ones standing for historic Christianity, probably because they are dying at the hand of Muslims for what they believe...while we over here just want to prove how prejudiced Christians are by not allowing gays as Bishops. Western thought is so far removed from....

Never mind. I have lived it, I can no more.

Please my fellow Orthodox, forgive me.

I must go pray for my heart sickness.

[Ebor]

You are right, I do not know you, but in a sense I do.


No, You do not know me as a person, as one just as Human as you are. I would suggest that you are projecting your own image/idea/presumptions onto me, for whatever reason. (Your own past? I don't know.) Well, I reject your assumptions of what I am or what I believe. I'm trying very hard to see the human being behind your post.


I have listened to the anglicans for long enough. You have smooth tongues and put each other down without seeming to do so all in the spirit of "christian love".
This is cunningness, the son of pride, which has led your church to debauchery.


There is no "you" in that. There are some individuals who do and others that do not. You tar with a very broad brush millions of people. Is this fair or true? I submit that it is not.


The anglican church continually has reports of paganism, and all its members say, "Where is the proof? Prove we do not follow Christ - we say all the right words!".
Cookies made for the goddess Astarte,


Here you refer to the Melnyk business of about 1 1/2 years ago? When you write "all its members" you are quite incorrect in what you say and thus you are putting forth an unfair assessment and not telling what really happened. Your sentence is not true.

I was there. I researched things for people. There were many many people objecting and writing and the proof was right there in the wonders of Google and its caching. It was William Melnyk who tried to erase things in various places. It didn't work. The story ended up in the Washington Times newspaper amoung other places.

Other things that you write are, if one knows or does the research, the work or words of not all Episcopalians but some and even then it is not the majority. You are assigning the deeds of a few to all. How is this fair?


Real knowledge??? I was one of them - I was as real as you could get in that unholiness baby.


And I am an American Anglican and subscribe to none of what you wrote was common. How does your opinion trump anyone elses please? Also, if the end of your last sentence is meant to refer to me, please do not call me "baby". Thank you.


My question to you would be...why? Why do you want to stay and fight for communion with these people?
What can you learn from them? Do you believe the Holy Spirit even resides in a church that practices these things???


I do not think that this is the correct forum for this discussion, it being the EO one. Perhaps if you were to go over the Anglican forum it would be more appropriate?


Do you truly believe that a practicing gay man that believes he is the true christ can lay his hands on you and pass on the Holy Spirit??


Could you please explain by the "belives he is the true christ" bit means? Thank you.

I'm sorry, but your post reads like there is a great deal of anger and rage at many things. I don't know you or your story, only what may be read here. And the same is true for me.

Ebor

[Ebor]

It just occurred to me. Why would this topic apply in TAW since it is not, as far as I can see, related to EO?

With respect,

Ebor

[HandmaidenOfGod]

It really doesn't apply to us at all. :)

On a completely different note, maybe it's because we're in the middle of a fast, but I keep reading "ECUSA elects female PB" as "ECUSA elects female Peanut Butter."

Sorry, it just tickled my funny bone and I had to share it. :D

[Ebor]

It really doesn't apply to us at all. :)


Thank you. I *thought* that it didn't really. (and the possiblity that it is a chance for feeling "I thank you, Lord, that I am not like that Episcopalian over there" was ummm troubling.)


On a completely different note, maybe it's because we're in the middle of a fast, but I keep reading "ECUSA elects female PB" as "ECUSA elects female Peanut Butter."

Sorry, it just tickled my funny bone and I had to share it. :D

:thumbsup: Good one to have a chance to laugh. ^_^

Ebor

[rusmeister]

Yeah, uh, guys, can I say something? (Frantic waving) :wave:

There are some things that we think that shouldn't be said, particularly when discussing those thoughts that can be offensive to the person we're talking to. I've been as guilty as anyone here, but I hope I've learned that, at least. (Not sure, but I'm trying to learn it.)

Let's try to show love, whether we feel it or not. In fact, feelings have nothing to do with true love (or if you prefer Lewis's 4 loves, agape), and the act of will that puts love out there literally helps create it (of course, God is the source). So telling the truth (as we believe it) can be great, but not in all times or places.

When Christians rip into each other, we only drive others further from us and the truth, and Satan is laughing his butt off. (What does this icon :mad: make you think of?)

Proving I'm right is more about my ego than Christ's love.

Forgive me if I've offended! :bow:

[rusmeister]

Agreed, the topic doesn't specifically apply to us. I think most of us are probably sad that fellow Christians (even if in the wrong church) are tearing each other apart over this. Who could win but the devil? :mad:

On the contrary, solid Anglican unification, a return to orthodoxy and a rejection of these modern "values" could eventually lead to unity with the Orthodox Church! Certainly it would become more, not less possible. Current events make that less likely, and that saddens all of us here, I think. :(

[Orthocat]

Yeah, uh, guys, can I say something? (Frantic waving) :wave:

There are some things that we think that shouldn't be said, particularly when discussing those thoughts that can be offensive to the person we're talking to. I've been as guilty as anyone here, but I hope I've learned that, at least. (Not sure, but I'm trying to learn it.)

Let's try to show love, whether we feel it or not. In fact, feelings have nothing to do with true love (or if you prefer Lewis's 4 loves, agape), and the act of will that puts love out there literally helps create it (of course, God is the source). So telling the truth (as we believe it) can be great, but not in all times or places.

When Christians rip into each other, we only drive others further from us and the truth, and Satan is laughing his butt off. (What does this icon :mad: make you think of?)

Proving I'm right is more about my ego than Christ's love.

Forgive me if I've offended! :bow:
You are absolutely right, and I apologize sincerely to Ebor for my idiocy.
I do not know you and your heart and cannot presume to.
I do have ill feelings toward that church - I was sincere and was going to follow it anywhere until our priest attempted to uh...seduce my then 17yo son.
My reaction then was not very Christian, after my son's not so Christian reaction - and I have a tendency to subject that onto anyone in that church and I truly apologize.

The teachings of the desert fathers are teaching me many things, also concerning the anger toward that church.

[Vasya Davidovich]

Two more fantastic posts by Rusmeister.

I wish I could rep you, Rusmeister, but the rep nazis forbid it.

Somebody want to rep him for me? Especially that second one (post #43)?

- Vasya.

[Ebor]

You are absolutely right, and I apologize sincerely to Ebor for my idiocy.


Thank you. I hope that I did not offend in my responses. But your fervour seemed, I'm sorry, misplaced in my direction. I


I do have ill feelings toward that church - I was sincere and was going to follow it anywhere until our priest attempted to uh...seduce my then 17yo son.
My reaction then was not very Christian, after my son's not so Christian reaction - and I have a tendency to subject that onto anyone in that church and I truly apologize.


Another example of how the actions of one person can affect how one sees an entire group. That priest did an evil deed. I am sorry that you and your son had to suffer it. It was clear from your words that there was a great deal of anger behind them.

Ebor

[Orthocat]

Thank you. I hope that I did not offend in my responses. But your fervour seemed, I'm sorry, misplaced in my direction. I



Another example of how the actions of one person can affect how one sees an entire group. That priest did an evil deed. I am sorry that you and your son had to suffer it. It was clear from your words that there was a great deal of anger behind them.

Ebor
yes, there is some residual anger when the subjects come up. It's my sickness I must deal with for awhile.


oh, I repped rusmeister. He did very good!!

[Ebor]

I also gave Rusmeister rep for his calm and compassion.

Ebor

[MariaRegina]

Maybe American Orthodox should put this rewrite of "The New Colossus" beside the doors of our churches: "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free of heresy and liturgical corruption..." ;)

Great post to remember. :cool:

[Orthocat]

It does appear to be over for them. An excerpt:

COLUMBUS, OHIO (6/20/06)-The House of Deputies of the 75th General Convention of the Episcopal Church today overwhelmingly refused to even consider a resolution that affirmed Jesus Christ as the "only name by which any person may be saved."

"This type of language was used in 1920s and 1930s to alienate the type of people who were executed. It was called the Holocaust. I understand the intent, but I ask you to allow the discharge to stay," said the Rev. Eugene C. McDowell, a graduate of Yale Divinity School and Canon Theologian for the Diocese of North Carolina.



Lord have mercy.