Islam

[Chris†opher Paul]

What do the Messianic Jews here think of Islam? Specifically, is Allah the same God as Yahweh? Do the Muslim people worship the God of Abraham, or not? If not, why not?

I am not interested in Judeo-Christian vs Muslim descriptions of God, as we all know they are different. I am interested in if the Muslims really think they are worshipping the God of Abraham.

Thanks

[Pray4Isrel]

To answer your question: The Muslims really do think they are worshiping the same God - The God of Abraham.
However, it couldn't be farther from the truth. In the Qu'ran, the so-called "character" of their God Allah is so far from THE God - the Great "I AM" of the Bible. The True God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is found specifically only in the Bible. If Islam and Christianity's God were the same, I guess we'd all have one Holy book, true?
I have read many parts/portions of the Qu'ran in my studies (majoring in Jewish Studies - Messianic) and Allah and The True God - Our Lord are not anything alike. Allah condones the killing of Jews and Christians... there are many contrasts... either way i hope this helps a little.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks.

I wonder, if they think they are really worshipping our God, will that help them at all in judgement?

[dignitized]

Many will cry - LORD LORD! to which Christ will Answer - I knew you NOT.

[Pray4Isrel]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Br. Max.

Keep in mind... many Arabs have been brainwashed into thinking that ALL Jews and Christians should be wiped out.  God will not look to kindly upon this.

[Chris†opher Paul]

So a sincere Muslim is doomed, period?

[dignitized]

pray4? Brainwashed?? Its their religious duty to subjugate us. No confusion or brainwashing there. Its plain Muslim teaching just as the Cross of Christ is part and parcel to the Christian faith.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Br. Max
pray4? Brainwashed?? Its their religious duty to subjugate us. No confusion or brainwashing there. Its plain Muslim teaching just as the Cross of Christ is part and parcel to the Christian faith.

If someone reads only the OT, they could think the wrong thing about Christians. Are you sure that what you say is in context and consistent teachings of Islam?

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by Br. Max
pray4? Brainwashed?? Its their religious duty to subjugate us. No confusion or brainwashing there. Its plain Muslim teaching just as the Cross of Christ is part and parcel to the Christian faith.

Yes this is true... but I look at it as a form of brainwashing that the Enemy uses.  He makes them believe that flying airplanes into buildings is a good thing, he makes them believe blowing up people in cafe's and marketplaces in Israel is a good thing.  Brainwashing's just a fancy word for it all.

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
So a sincere Muslim is doomed, period?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Muslims do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  I don't ever wish to use my experiences as a grounds for any kind of self-promotion, but having gone to Israel a couple of times to study and do missionary work, I have spoken with many Muslims and have seen the details of this religion.  Sincerity is not the issue... it's the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ that matters.  This they do not have.  I met one, that's right, one Arab believer in Israel.  (There are only a small faction) 

Only those that believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not doomed.     

[dignitized]

Soul: a rather cursory perusal of the Koran will put forward many passages in which is it clearly stated that it is the moral, religious and civic duty of every Muslim to convert, subjugate, and or kill every Christian and Jew in the world. They present themselves as a religion of peace to the West, but they are not. Few people realize that the Crusades were caused by the Muslim policies towards Christians in the Holy Land and their wars of conquest in Europe. The crusades were not unprovoked as many modern "historians" would have a man believe.

If you would like referances from the Koran I'd be glad to provide them - or you could take my word for it :)

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Soul: a rather cursory perusal of the Koran will put forward many passages in which is it clearly stated that it is the moral, religious and civic duty of every Muslim to convert, subjugate, and or kill every Christian and Jew in the world. They present themselves as a religion of peace to the West, but they are not. Few people realize that the Crusades were caused by the Muslim policies towards Christians in the Holy Land and their wars of conquest in Europe. The crusades were not unprovoked as many modern "historians" would have a man believe.

If you would like referances from the Koran I'd be glad to provide them - or you could take my word for it :)


I'd like to see the verses please, but could you also provide them in context? I mean, the atheists here take our verses so badly out of context that they make Christanity look very bad sometimes.

[vegan]

Just an interesting aside, when I lived in NYC, I taught at a Persian Yeshiva. The Persian Jews refered to God (their God) as Allah. Allah simply means God in Arabic.

I thought it was interesting to have all these frum-Jews call HaShem "Allah."

[Pray4Isrel]

Hmmmm. That's interesting Vegan... I would've never thought that certain Jews would refer to to God as Allah.
Although I do understand that Allah is Arabic for God. I was making the distinction between the God of the Bible and the god of the QuRan. Totally different.

[Chris†opher Paul]

I was making the distinction between the God of the Bible and the god of the QuRan.


Correction, the DESCRIPTION of the one God is somewhat different.

[Pray4Isrel]

Somewhat? Try entirely different.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
Somewhat? Try entirely different.

I wouldnt say that. Why do you think that?

[Pray4Isrel]

Have you read the Quran?
Have you studied the Muslim beliefs?
I have... I studied while in the Holy Land itself. I've seen it with my own eyes. Islam is a false religion worshipping a false God. I remember going inside the Dome of The Rock in Jerusalem... If I could tell you the things I saw.
Either way, if you know the basics of what the Islamic faith entails, you'd see how the intentions are to wipe out, to kill, every Jew and Christian alive.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Tell me what you saw and also tell me why you think their basic beliefs are to wipe out every Jew/Christian, thanks.

[Pray4Isrel]

I'll find the specific commands in the QuRan and I'll paste them here for you... give me a little while ;)

What I saw was very disturbing though. I'll PM you.

[dignitized]

soul: check out this site:

http://answering-islam.org/

also -

http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/islam.htm

[Chris†opher Paul]

Your own link says:


Do all Muslims share this view of perpetual jihad until all the world submits to Allah as contemplated by Muhammad? Certainly not!


and...


Muslims are not uniform, but quite varied. Some are zealous for the Quran and Islam; some less zealous, and others indifferent. All prefer to identify themselves as Muslims. Muslims have a wide range of ethnic origins, opinions and interests. Although Arabs are honored as the "race of Muhammad", the Quran does not recognize races.


Obviously some Muslims can take certain scriptures literally and want to wage war on the infidels. The problem is that there is no unifying authority of Islam to set the record straight.

[dignitized]

soul: there is a division between the Western Muslims and Eastern Muslims. Western muslims are the ones who teach and preach Islam as peace. Eastern Muslims are the ones who have declaired Jihad on the west.

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Br. Max
soul: there is a division between the Western Muslims and Eastern Muslims. Western muslims are the ones who teach and preach Islam as peace. Eastern Muslims are the ones who have declaired Jihad on the west.

Do you have some source for this please?

[dignitized]

soul: a muslim convert :) I'll see if I can find it witten somewhere for ya

[Higher Truth]

Quote:

"What do the Messianic Jews here think of Islam? Specifically, is Allah the same God as Yahweh? Do the Muslim people worship the God of Abraham, or not? If not, why not?"

I know that I came in on this thread a little late [sorry] but the first question that I would have to ask, is there any real proof that the God of Israel's name is Yahweh?

[dignitized]

Truth: Yahweh is an interpretation of the tetragrammaton. It saves alot of typing to say Yahwen or Jehovah rather tetragrammaton!!

[Higher Truth]

Br Max,

Yahweh is just a theoretical translation of the Name. Scholars in Israel are now looking at Yehowah as being a closer rendering. If this is so, who is everybody calling on?

[dignitized]

Higher Truth: why the one true and Triune God :) Lord of the Universe, Prince of Peace, My Savior, My Lord, My Bridegroom . . . :)

[Higher Truth]

Br Max...is it Yahweh, or is it Jehovah, or now, is it Yehowah?

[dignitized]

its the Teragrammaton. :) He knows who you are talking to just as I know you mean me when you address me whether you call me Maximilain, Maximillion, or Maxamillian. all are acceptable spellings of my name. :)

[Higher Truth]

The enemy has always desired the worship of God's people. Is it possible that the enemy is trying to come up with a variation or a different name to accomplish this desire?

[dignitized]

Higher Truth: I would have to say NO. The heart matters just as much, if not more in such issues. God say's he knows the hearts of men. He Knows if you are seeking and naming Him or if you are seeking and naming some one else. AGAIN, we know that ONE of his names is the Tetragrammaton. He also has many many other names. If we worship him in spirit and in truth, the variation of a name does not change the person. :) I think an examination of the scriptures reveals that the Tetragrammaton is used in conjunction with a second title - YHVH Elohim (Lord God); YHVH M'kadesh (The Lord who Makes Holy); YHVH Nisi (The Lord my Miracle); YHVH O'saynu (The Lord our Maker), etc. The question is not how you call him Lord, but IF you call him Lord :D

[ILJ]

Grace and Peace to all,

Iam new to this site, but I am a moderator on an "ex-muslim" web site. I am not a muslim, nor ever have been. My personal feelings on the matter of whether we worship the same God is no. The reason is that their early Scriptures tell us that Muhammad agreed with Jews and Christians, but later when they denied his prophethood, the Qu'ran changed to a hostile view of them.

One has to ask would satan the master deceiver use the name satan? Or would he claim to be God? Those of us who are Christian know the power of Jesus death & resurrection, over satan. He needed to try to lead as many as possible away from that, and try to discredit it as well. Also to discredit the old Jewish Scriptures, which is exactly what Islam attemts to do.
Here's an interesting statements from a book entitled: Answering Islam by, Norman Geisler & Abdul Saleeb,

EVALUATION OF MUSLIM CLAIM FOR MUHAMMAD'S DIVINE CALL

For many critics of Islam the Muslim view of Muhammad sufferes from an acute case of overclaim. They do not find, for example, support for the claim that he was called to bring final revelation from God in the circumstances that surround Muhammad's call.

They point out that during his call he was choked by the angel. (Compare that with Daniels revelation) Muhammad himself said of the angel, "He choked me with the cloth until I believed that I should die.

Then he released me and said: 'Recite!' (Iqra)." When he hesitated, he received twice again the repeated harsh treatment." This seems to many an unusual form of coersion, unlike a gracious and merciful God Muslims claim Allah to be, as well as contrary to the free choice they claim he has granted his creatures.
Muhammad himself questioned the divine origin of the experience. At first he thought he was being deceived by a jinn or evil spirit. In fact, Muhammad was at first deathly afraid of the source of his new found revelation, but he was encouraged by his wife Khadija (whom was 15 yrs. his senior) and her cousin Waraqah to believe that the revelation was the same as that of Moses, and that he too, would be a prophet of his nation.

One of the most widely respected Muslim biographers, M.H. Haykal, speaks vivdly of Muhammad's plaguing fear that he was demon possessed:
Stricken with panic, Muhammad arose and asked himself, "What did I see? Did possession of the devil which I feared all along come to pass? Muhammad looked to his right and left and saw nothing. For awhile he stood there trembling with fear and stricken with awe. He feared the cave might be haunted and that he might run away still unable to explain what he saw.

I find that most interesting, based on the anger and hatred he had for Jews and Christians later on. I think that God will give powerful signs to all his people so there will be no mistaking his truth.

In Christ

ILJ

[Talmid HaYarok]

Muslims claim to worship the one true G-d, Mormons claim to worship the one true G-d, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to worship the one true G-d, Ba'hai practicioners claim to worship the one true G-d, etc, Marcionites claimed to worship the one true G-d, Gnostics claimed to worship the one true G-d, Pharisees claim to worship the one true G-d, etcetera, etc., etc. ad nauseam.

Now for some people they've followed the Creator of the world as best they can, and I believe they will be Paradise with us. However, the Heretics have received at least in part the Truth and turned away from the rest (in general, it is true that many Rabbinic Jews and Muslims have been taught to never even read or learn about the true beliefs of Messianics)

So I too believe that by their own lack of faith and love in the Creator they condemn themselves.

Though I wish all could be saved, it is up to each individual themselves.

[Magisterium]

11th February 2003 at 07:59 AM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #35 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645978#post645978)

Muslims claim to worship the one true G-d, Mormons claim to worship the one true G-d, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to worship the one true G-d, Ba'hai practicioners claim to worship the one true G-d, etc, Marcionites claimed to worship the one true G-d, Gnostics claimed to worship the one true G-d, Pharisees claim to worship the one true G-d, etcetera, etc., etc. ad nauseam.

Now for some people they've followed the Creator of the world as best they can, and I believe they will be Paradise with us. However, the Heretics have received at least in part the Truth and turned away from the rest (in general, it is true that many Rabbinic Jews and Muslims have been taught to never even read or learn about the true beliefs of Messianics)

So I too believe that by their own lack of faith and love in the Creator they condemn themselves.

Though I wish all could be saved, it is up to each individual themselves.




I share your wish that all could be saved. (As it is also G-d's will) However, I am drawn back to Jesus statement in Mt:15:14
"14 Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both fall into the pit."

I am also reminded of another quote "there are none so blind, as those who WILL not see"
However, It still breaks my heart.

[Live4Jesus]

One basic foundational point that separates the muslim god from the christian God, is that while the God of Israel has a son, and His word is full of statements pointing to that son as the messiah, the god of islam claims to not have any children.

So on that point alone, even though muslims claim they worship the same god, how can it be, if their god has no son? They seem to overlook that...

Also keep in mind when dealing with muslims concerning their beliefs... they do believe that it is proper, at any time, to lie to any who they consider infidels. Acquiring the truth is not an easy task, they sincerely don't believe they are suppose to share it with you, but rather can tell you just about anything else they please.