Contraception.....Confused?!

[zhilan]

Last night on a different Catholic/Orthodox forum there is a priest on there who kept talking about how the Orthodox church is ok with contraception. He kept asking a Catholic guy married to an Orthodox woman if he knows that it's ok for her to use contraception and how it would be wrong for him to not let her. I posted saying the Orthodox church does not support contraception and only allows it in certain exteme circumstances. I don't know if I'm allowed to quote him so if I'm not then you can delete it and I will post a summary, but this is what he said:

No, of course I do not want to make it sound like that, but the Orthodox Churches allow contraception and the Russian Orthodox Synod of Bishops made a formal statement to that effect in 2000. Have you seen it? I can fish it out of the Forum if you like.I am not sure if you can be "opposed" to something and "allow" it at the same time. Either an action is sinful or it is not, and if it is sinful the Church must oppose it come what may. The bottom line is that marriage is intended to produce children as one of its most important fruits, but the Orthodox allow the use of contraception to limit and to space children. If the couple use it selfishly or to avoid children entirely then they are entering into the realm of serious sin. I would complain. If an Orthodox woman were being obliged by her Catholic husband to have child and after child because he would not allow her to make use of contraception, and perhaps endangering her health in the process, I would complain vociferously and offer her my full support. In grave circumstances this would be a reason for recommending divorce to the bishop.

Is this correct? A Catholic spouce refusing to use contraceptoin is reason for divorce?!?! :confused: And did they really issue a formal statement support contraception?

[eoe]

Sounds like hooey to me. This fellow is confused.

[kamikat]

Yeah, I participate on that board, too. That priest is a convert from Catholicism and this particular topic is his pet topic. He tends to distort both the Orthodox view and the Catholic view on contraception to meet his own agenda. I hate to say anything bad about a priest, but I've learned that when father gets on this topic, to just ignore his posts.

kamikat

[zhilan]

Yeah, I participate on that board, too. That priest is a convert from Catholicism and this particular topic is his pet topic. He tends to distort both the Orthodox view and the Catholic view on contraception to meet his own agenda. I hate to say anything bad about a priest, but I've learned that when father gets on this topic, to just ignore his posts.

kamikat

I just came across the board last night. Is it a good board. I dont like it's organization as much as CF but it's intereting. That's for clearing up about the priest. How odd that he has this pet topic. I can understand a priest being sympathic to those who wish to use it, but I find it very odd that he would be so obsessed with contraception. He seems to bring it up even when it's not related.

So this is really not what the church teaches on the topic?

[choirfiend]

I would ask that question of several priests in your area, to the main churchs' websites, etc. Compare the answers you receive and hopefully they may provide more insight.

[kamikat]

I just came across the board last night. Is it a good board. I dont like it's organization as much as CF but it's intereting. That's for clearing up about the priest. How odd that he has this pet topic. I can understand a priest being sympathic to those who wish to use it, but I find it very odd that he would be so obsessed with contraception. He seems to bring it up even when it's not related.


I would not recommend it. I started out on that board as a Catholic. I should have left when I no longer felt comfortable calling myself Catholic. It's very argumentative and not edifying at all.
He's not the only one that brings it up on every thread. There are a couple Catholics that bring it up as an example of how the Orthodox church "lies" about not changing. It gets really nasty and at one point, one of the Catholics told father that he was using his wife like a whore by having contraceptive relations. Nobody seems to be concerned with keeping any sort of civility on that board.

kamikat

[irishseventysix]

When I first came to Orthodoxy, I was under the impression that the EOC was against contraception. Officially, if I'm not mistaken, they are against it ideally. Using contraception is NOT the ideal. However, my own Godfather and his wife use it because they have been granted economia by Father. It's really a decision that people must make with regard to God and themselves.

I am consistenly taken aback by Christians who use contraception without giving ANY thought to the Spiritual implications. As if sex was the one vice we're given and we're supposed to just have fun when we get married. It's more about the friction than it is about living as unto the Lord.

No, we are given the grave and deep responsibility of emulating God, in a very real sense, by participating with him in the creation of life. Certain body fluids were designed for that purpose...with the power, by God's grace, to begin LIFE. But we don't wield this gift of participating with God with any thought or respect given to the grave responsibilities. This is especially true of my Protestant friends.

I have so many friends who have said that, "we just want time to ourselves for the first few years of marriage and we don't want kids until we're financially ready for them" and so they go on the Pill. And while there is some wisdom in there, think of how dehumanizing it is! Children are only welcome in families if they come when it's convenient? Too many beautiful children enter this world under a cloud of "crap, the condom broke" and not, "What a wonderful gift the Lord has given us! He is trustworthy, cares about us, and will supply our needs! I need to prepare myself." That's a problem! And it's epidemic. And it has potentially huge implications on the environment these kids enter.

And we wonder where we got the idea in our heads as a culture that abortion was okay. With the aforementioned attitude, it's the next logical step.

Of course, there is economia. There are exceptions. And in my opinion, this issue is nothing to get divorced over, but instead the differences should be worked out in humility and mutual submission.

I am no priest. I have no children. I have never been married. I've never had sex. I have no real authority, especially experientially here. But I care about this issue because the problems I see in not caring about it are so horrendous. That, and it applies to my life with regard to the way I was concieved, born, and grew up.

What we do matters. Especially when we possess the ability to partake in the creation of life. If we take death seriously, why not life also?

But I do believe in economia, too.

[irishseventysix]

I should also note the masturbation and oral/anal sex are wrong for similar reasons. So we've got to be careful about contraception.

Not browbeat people with it, but really, really look at the issue and its implications on ourselves, our families, and therefore our society spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

[Orthocat]

I would wonder about a priest that is obsessed with contraceptives/sex...
"methinks thou dost protesteth too much"...


We live in a day and age where all morality is relative to how each individual/society group views it.
Goodness, we now have churches uplifting practicing gay/lesbian priests/bishops as holy in the eyes of God...
contraceptives mean nothing to society at all.

Whether or not we agree with all the rules of the church, I for one am just glad that we at least have some...

[kamikat]

I would wonder about a priest that is obsessed with contraceptives/sex...
"methinks thou dost protesteth too much"...


I don't think it's that at all. This board that she's talking about is mostly Catholic. The Catholics like to claim that they are the only ones with a unity of faith. Father uses this to show that while the RCC claims unity of faith, the Couple-to-Couple league has statistics that show that only 2% of married Catholic couples use NFP and several bishops have said that an American priest can expect that 95% of his parish disagree with the teaching and do not obey it. It's father's trump card, saying that there's only appearance of unity but in practice, no one follows the rules.

kamikat

[wynd]

I don't think it's that at all. This board that she's talking about is mostly Catholic. The Catholics like to claim that they are the only ones with a unity of faith. Father uses this to show that while the RCC claims unity of faith, the Couple-to-Couple league has statistics that show that only 2% of married Catholic couples use NFP and several bishops have said that an American priest can expect that 95% of his parish disagree with the teaching and do not obey it. It's father's trump card, saying that there's only appearance of unity but in practice, no one follows the rules.

kamikat
And like I've asked before but have never received an answer: Why does which rules people choose to follow matter? Just because some people (however many that may be) choose not to follow a teaching doesn't mean that teaching is thereby invalidated.

[Lotar]

I wonder what that priest thinks about Bishop Hilarion's statements on the issue, where he groups it together with issues like abortion and gay marriage. It sure doesn't sound to me like the ROC supports contraception. T

here isn't a single synod that came out and stated that contraception is "okay", only a few that state that exceptions can be made under the guidance of a priest.

[ClementofRome]

Question (and yes, I know, I need to ask a priest!):

Let's say that a Protestant male in good conscience got a vasectomy many years ago. The couple did have children, but decided that the children that they had was a plenty. Then, the family converts to Orthodoxy... Is the man of the house viewed as being in sin daily due to his vasectomy?

[irishseventysix]

Question (and yes, I know, I need to ask a priest!):

Let's say that a Protestant male in good conscience got a vasectomy many years ago. The couple did have children, but decided that the children that they had was a plenty. Then, the family converts to Orthodoxy... Is the man of the house viewed as being in sin daily due to his vasectomy?
I would imagine that it's the same issue as tatooing. The Orthodox Church forbids tatooing, but what's done is done.

If you come into the OC, confess it in your lifetime confession, repent, and live a life of repentance from this and your other sins.

Beyond that, I have no idea.

[Lotar]

Question (and yes, I know, I need to ask a priest!):

Let's say that a Protestant male in good conscience got a vasectomy many years ago. The couple did have children, but decided that the children that they had was a plenty. Then, the family converts to Orthodoxy... Is the man of the house viewed as being in sin daily due to his vasectomy?

It's a sin when done, but not an on going sin. That former Protestant is forgiven when recieved through baptism/chrismation.

[ClementofRome]

What about the rythmn method? What about avoiding sex altogether to prevent the onslaught of children?

I suppose that these are sins too?

[Lotar]

What about the rythmn method? What about avoiding sex altogether to prevent the onslaught of children?

I suppose that these are sins too?

They can be. I don't know what the general consensus is, but I know that ROCOR treats the rythmn method as a more acceptable form of birth control, but birth control nonetheless. My fiancee and I plan on using this method if her body needs time to recover between children.

Total abstinence for that purpose would be sinful.

[cobweb]

Just out of curiousity:

I'm assuming that in a situation like my sister's (Her doctor has told her that another pregnancy will kill her and the baby. She is barely making it through her current pregnancy and they fear that they will be forced to take the baby early. In between pregnancies she also takes medication that would cause severe birth deffects.) there would be some sort of special consideration. Correct?

What about in cases where you can barely afford to feed the kids that you have and another child (and the hospital bills) would definitely put you in dire straits financially?

[Lotar]

Just out of curiousity:

I'm assuming that in a situation like my sister's (Her doctor has told her that another pregnancy will kill her and the baby. She is barely making it through her current pregnancy and they fear that they will be forced to take the baby early. In between pregnancies she also takes medication that would cause severe birth deffects.) there would be some sort of special consideration. Correct?

What about in cases where you can barely afford to feed the kids that you have and another child (and the hospital bills) would definitely put you in dire straits financially?

That is where economy comes in. It would be okay under the guidance of a priest.

In Orthodoxy contraception isn't considered inherently sinful, as it is in the RCC, it's in the intent behind the use.

[cobweb]

That is where economy comes in. It would be okay under the guidance of a priest.

In Orthodoxy contraception isn't considered inherently sinful, as it is in the RCC, it's in the intent behind the use.

Thank you.

I was a little bit familiar with the RCC teaching on contraception and just assumed they were the same.


I really need to stop doing that. :doh:

[kamikat]

. My fiancee and I plan on using this method if her body needs time to recover between children.
.
I know it's somewhat OT, but breastfeeding is not only the best nutrition for babies, but is great, natural birthcontrol that is accepted by everyone. Most moms are infertile while breastfeeding until baby begins eating solid food, many mom are infertile until weaning and some are infertile for a few months after weaning. My best friend has 4 children, all just about 4 years apart, thanks to extended breastfeeding, no chemicals, no checking for symptoms or watching the calendar, nothing, just natural hormon supression while doing what's best for baby.

kamikat

[Lotar]

I know it's somewhat OT, but breastfeeding is not only the best nutrition for babies, but is great, natural birthcontrol that is accepted by everyone. Most moms are infertile while breastfeeding until baby begins eating solid food, many mom are infertile until weaning and some are infertile for a few months after weaning. My best friend has 4 children, all just about 4 years apart, thanks to extended breastfeeding, no chemicals, no checking for symptoms or watching the calendar, nothing, just natural hormon supression while doing what's best for baby.

kamikat

True. Hopefully that will be the case. The thing is that she has RSDS, and we don't know how her body will handle being pregnant. If it's especially bad, we probably won't want to take the chance of Irish twins. Otherwise we'll just see if her body naturally spaces them. :)

[rainbowbright]

I don't know how to convince my husband that he needs to talk to our priest if he's thinks we're absolutely done having children. He says he's just going to get a visectomy and it's just going to be between him and God. I agree that we shouldn't have anymore because we will have four within four years and can't afford the ones we have right now, but we should do something that is at least reversible in case we are actually financially successful in the future and want more. I just don't know what to do and told him he needs to talk to the church before he does anything.

[ufonium2]

I think the breast-feeding as birth control thing varies greatly from woman to woman. My mom was back to normal, hormonally and cyclically, like six weeks after giving brith, even though she breast fed. My great grandma was pregnant 14 times in less than 20 years, breast feeding the whole time.

Then again, I'm beginning to think we're unusually fertile people (as I sit here nine months pregnant and 10 months married :) )

[irishseventysix]

I don't know how to convince my husband that he needs to talk to our priest if he's thinks we're absolutely done having children. He says he's just going to get a visectomy and it's just going to be between him and God. I agree that we shouldn't have anymore because we will have four within four years and can't afford the ones we have right now, but we should do something that is at least reversible in case we are actually financially successful in the future and want more. I just don't know what to do and told him he needs to talk to the church before he does anything.
Suggesting that is a very good idea. If you don't approve, you should let him know. What each of you does doesn't just affect you as individuals and God, if affects your whole family.

Doing something that's 'just between you and God' isn't possible because what we do affects everyone, spiritually and relationally. We aren't islands unto ourselves, though guys (like me) unfortunately tend to think so and operate that way in our culture.

Burying this stuff is spiritually dangerous, too.

Talking about this with your priest is important on your end, too. This decision involves you, and your children directly.

Can you guys ask for economia?

Forgive me. I don't know all the answers. This is just how I see it and Lord have mercy on us and save us.

[gzt]

lactational amenorrhea can only be counted on for about six months, if I recall correctly. but don't take my word for it or take tihs as medical advice.

[buzuxi02]

whats newTheres 2 points of view on contraception in Orthodoxy. One is that sexual relations (in marriage) is for the procreation of children, that this is the natural law, thus contraception of any kind is wrong. a position promoted by many monastics.
The second point of view is that sexual relations(in marriage) is not only for procreation but also for sexual love which wards off evil temptation, based mostly upon St Pauls writings (See 1 COR 7.1-5,9). In this instance limited use of birth control is allowed. To space out births, or after having a family the couple can use limited contraception for reasonable reasons. The use of contraception to avoid the birth of any children is condemned. This second view point is promoted by Fr Demetrios Constantenos in the book "Marriage, Sexuality and Celibacy, a Greek Orthodox Perspective" and by Fr. John Meyendorff in, "Marriage, an Orthodox Perspective" and by Fr. Stanly Harakas in his book "Contemporary Moral issues Facing the Orthodox Christian"

Some bishops use both these perspectives. example: They will use 'eikonomia' (leniency) towards a couple living in a big city struggling to get by but use "akrevia" (severity); when an area's population is dwindling (either thru low birth rates, migration or war) and/ or non-orthodox are moving in and eclipsing the indigenous inhabitants (this is the case in thrace greece where the muslim turks are now 50-50 with the native greeks).

As far as a priest recommending a divorce over this, thats a bunch of nonsense. In fact the same writings of Paul which is used to support limited use of contraception within sexual love, makes it clear that divorce is out of the question regardless.(see 1cor 7.10)

[cobweb]

I think the breast-feeding as birth control thing varies greatly from woman to woman. My mom was back to normal, hormonally and cyclically, like six weeks after giving brith, even though she breast fed. My great grandma was pregnant 14 times in less than 20 years, breast feeding the whole time.

Then again, I'm beginning to think we're unusually fertile people (as I sit here nine months pregnant and 10 months married :) )

That is my case as well. I became pregnant less than a month after marriage. I also became pregnant while breastfeeding (although it did end in an early miscarriage). I'm a bit leary to trust LAM even though I delay solids and nurse my toddlers. Another child would necesitate government assistance to feed. Any more than that we would be in big trouble.

My husband is one of 9 children born into poverty. He is very adamant that he will not duplicate his childhood. Having been a child in extreme poverty myself I agree that I never want a child of mine to go to bed wracked with hunger and desperately praying that there will be enough food for "Daddy to eat too".

I don't know the Orthodox position on that, but in my heart, putting a child in that situation is very wrong.

[Monica, child of God]

I was infertile while breastfeeding for only about 7 months and my son nursed exclusively (ie no food) for his first year. After the 7th month, I must have ovulated and gotten pregnant right away because I never had a period. The pregnancy ended in miscarriage 4 weeks later which was really hard to deal with along with an 8 month old. After the miscarriage, my periods were irregular, nursing the baby in the morning made BBT monitoring impossible and the mucus observation was inconsistent.

My point is you might not want to count on breastfeeding as BC if there is a medical condition that contra-indicates pregnancy.

M.

[kamikat]

I think the breast-feeding as birth control thing varies greatly from woman to woman. My mom was back to normal, hormonally and cyclically, like six weeks after giving brith, even though she breast fed. My great grandma was pregnant 14 times in less than 20 years, breast feeding the whole time.


You're right, it does vary greatly. I wasn't "back to normal" for 6 months after weaning my younger son, at 18 months old.

kamikat

[rainbowbright]

I was talking to my priest tonight and told him that my husband and I would like to talk to him about not having any more kids and he told me that we could do whatever we felt we needed to do, even if it was permenant and then told me there was nothing I could do to prevent it now, as he stared at my bulging stomach. I'm a little confused too, I keep getting mixed views on this.

[prodromos]

Have a look at this thread (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=118074) at another forum for a good take on the issue (thread starter is an Orthodox priest).

John