Good news

[gtsecc]

Everytime Rome catches a cold, we sneeze.

The Good news is that Rome is one a serious effort to put the Altars back against the wall, and have the Priests face towards God (Ad Deum) for the Celebration.

+Benedict has said that the move to Ad Populum was based upon faulty scholarship. :clap:

[Aymn27]

:scratch: Jesus faced the wall during the Last Supper - wasn't much of a party host was he?

:sleep: The Pontiff wants Latin back too - and thinks guitars and drums in church are "secular" - sounds like a renaissance of dualism and medieval romanticism. He's already done away with limbo, must the Lord now ignore Vatican I and II as well so the ultra-trads can go back to Trent?

Praise God I'm no longer a Roman!!!

[gtsecc]

:scratch: Jesus faced the wall during the Last Supper - wasn't much of a party host was he?

Jesus is a unique case in that He is God.

The Orthodox face East, and content that it was always that way.

The move to allow Ad Populum is now believed to have been based on faulty scholarship.

This is not a thing the Pope wants, or likes - it is an understanding. The fact that he is on board with it, shows that he is on board with it - not that it is His arbitrary baby. The one thing you can attribute to him is his concern that move back be done carefully so as to not upset people who are used to doign it Ad Populum for so long now.

[karen freeinchristman]

The move to allow Ad Populum is now believed to have been based on faulty scholarship.
Scholarship? What kind of scholarship goes into making the decision on which direction the priest should face?

I'm with Aymn27 on this one, gtsecc. :scratch: Jesus faced the wall during the Last Supper - wasn't much of a party host was he?




The fact that he is on board with it, shows that he is on board with it This is a very enlightening statement! :P

[gtsecc]

Scholarship? What kind of scholarship goes into making the decision on which direction the priest should face?

It is now believed that Christians always faced East.
I don't know how that is confusing.
The result is Rome, will eventually hold all masses the original way, Ad Deum, rather than the new way invented in the 1960s, Ad Populum. This will probably take about 20 years to be fully in effect. Anglicans have always faced East, the Direction God will come again from, and only began facing West after Rome did in the 60's.

As an aside, the 1960's is also the time when we in the Church, made ourselves God.

[Aymn27]

It is now believed that Christians always faced East.
I don't know how that is confusing.
The result is Rome, will eventually hold all masses the original way, Ad Deum, rather than the new way invented in the 1960s, Ad Populum. This will probably take about 20 years to be fully in effect. Anglicans have always faced East, the Direction God will come again from, and only began facing West after Rome did in the 60's.

As an aside, the 1960's is also the time when we in the Church, made ourselves God.


Oh my gtsecc,
That is so bogus. Jesus had the last supper, not the last sacrifice. St Paul in Corinthians talks about the agape meal - eating, drinking..highly doubt they faced the wall there...I don't have the link here (I'm at work) but on my home computer there is a scholarly article on the development of the Eucharist. It is a meal - at a table (yes a sacrificial table) that we can call an altar because Christ was our Passover - the entire event takes place within the context of a Passover MEAL...NOT IN THE TEMPLE! If you and Rome and the East choose to say mass ad orientium - go for it, but don't go around saying the Biblical way is incorrect...tradition does not trump Scripture - ever.

[gtsecc]

Jesus is different from a Priest.
In fact, if you understand that, you see that the Bible supports Ad Deum.
Doesn't matter what you like or don't like anyway - we worship out of obedience, not out of preference.

[Aymn27]

Jesus is different from a Priest.
In fact, if you understand that, you see that the Bible supports Ad Deum.
Doesn't matter what you like or don't like anyway - we worship out of obedience, not out of preference.
What about the reference in Acts to the "breaking of the bread" (no mention of offering the sacrifice of the mass there) or in I Cornithians of the order of Agape - you know the whole..don't eat too much, don't come drunk, etc etc...no mention of ad orientium sacrifice there...

I think I'm becoming more and more evangelical as I listen to all this TRADITION stuff - it just echoes the words of Jesus about worrying more about the cleanliness of the vessels than what is in the heart...Eucharist is not about bells, incense, vestments..and whether or not you turn around two times before you hop on one leg or turn once and hop twice - It's about partaking in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and being transformed into his likeness..enough already with the minutia of rubrics.

[gtsecc]

What about the reference in Acts to the "breaking of the bread" (no mention of offering the sacrifice of the mass there) or in I Cornithians of the order of Agape - you know the whole..don't eat too much, don't come drunk, etc etc...no mention of ad orientium sacrifice there...
.
You have my understanding and sympathy.
The difference is how we live our life, and confusing that with worship.
Part of worship is being obedient, and not making it about us, which I content is the error of the mega praise and worship churches.

If the Mass was always East facing, then why not be obedient and face East?

Ultimately, we have to be honest - if we do somethign the way we want because we want to, we can't act like we are being obedient.

Church the way YOU want it, isn't the Christian message. (nto directed at YOU Aymn22)n

[Mysterium_Fidei]

This is true, gtsecc. It's already been happening in the local Catholic diocese.

Well, not the altars (yet). They're all moving the tabernacles back to front and center, however. Removing a lot of liturgical 'art', and putting the crucifix back in place. This is happening in the Diocese of Charlotte and the Diocese of Raleigh.

[higgs2]

Scholarship? What kind of scholarship goes into making the decision on which direction the priest should face?

I'm with Aymn27 on this one, gtsecc.




This is a very enlightening statement! :P


Yeah, me too! It's kinda fun being inthe same boat :)

[Aymn27]

You have my understanding and sympathy.
The difference is how we live our life, and confusing that with worship.
Part of worship is being obedient, and not making it about us, which I content is the error of the mega praise and worship churches.

If the Mass was always East facing, then why not be obedient and face East?

Ultimately, we have to be honest - if we do somethign the way we want because we want to, we can't act like we are being obedient.

Church the way YOU want it, isn't the Christian message. (nto directed at YOU Aymn22)n
Well..you have not proven by Scripture that the "mass" ever faced east - so why are you not following Jesus' command of "Do THIS in remembrance of me." Eucharist - in a supper setting - not a temple cult setting...(which I think comes from some Judaizer error).

[higgs2]

Everytime Rome catches a cold, we sneeze.

The Good news is that Rome is one a serious effort to put the Altars back against the wall, and have the Priests face towards God (Ad Deum) for the Celebration.

+Benedict has said that the move to Ad Populum was based upon faulty scholarship. :clap:
I don't understand why Anglicans should see this as good news. Or bad news.

[IowaLutheran]

I don't understand why Anglicans should see this as good news. Or bad news.

Good point for two reasons: (1) What happens in Rome is something we should study, but as it is not binding on us it is not really relevant enough to our respective communions to be either glad or sad about. (2) Great debates about seemingly minor liturgical matters followed by mandatory pronouncements from Rome should remind us why we are not subject to Rome. This is a classic example of adiaphora; a matter not essential to faith. I understand why gtsecc thinks its not a minor matter but its not like we're talking about the redoing the baptismal formula or the words of institution.

[AveMaria]

I was fascinated to hear of the changes in the (U.S.) liturgy that were just approved and am hoping some of those may trickle down to us.

Just as an example, after the priest says "The Lord be with you," the congregation will respond "And with your spirit" instead of "And also with you."

[gtsecc]

This will affect us, because the ONLY reason we did it was because Rome did it after Vatican 2.

This is a good thing, because some parishes were facing the wrong way.

Wow, so the Church is speaking to us with one voice on this matter?
Yes.
Does that mean it is the Holy Spirit speaking to us?
Yes.

What more do we want?

[Aymn27]

Good point for two reasons: (1) What happens in Rome is something we should study, but as it is not binding on us it is not really relevant enough to our respective communions to be either glad or sad about. (2) Great debates about seemingly minor liturgical matters followed by mandatory pronouncements from Rome should remind us why we are not subject to Rome. This is a classic example of adiaphora; a matter not essential to faith. I understand why gtsecc thinks its not a minor matter but its not like we're talking about the redoing the baptismal formula or the words of institution.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to IowaLutheran again

[Inside Edge]

Just as an example, after the priest says "The Lord be with you," the congregation will respond "And with your spirit" instead of "And also with you."
We already use that language (sometimes). :)

[gtsecc]

If there was any doubt, my parish uses Rite 1 exclusively - even for Baptisms.

[RadixLecti]

This is a good thing, because some parishes were facing the wrong way.


Is the tradition that churches face East or that they face Jerusalem? Wouldn't the churches to the East of Jerusalem face West since that is the direction that Christ will return from? (from Jerusalem)

I know this is the tradition in Judaism (minus the Jesus part) but I didn't realise this was also a Christian tradition.

[No Swansong]

You have my understanding and sympathy.
The difference is how we live our life, and confusing that with worship.
Part of worship is being obedient, and not making it about us, which I content is the error of the mega praise and worship churches.

If the Mass was always East facing, then why not be obedient and face East?

Ultimately, we have to be honest - if we do somethign the way we want because we want to, we can't act like we are being obedient.

Church the way YOU want it, isn't the Christian message. (nto directed at YOU Aymn22)n



Just a question GT assuming that facing east is not possible does this then mean that the mystery should not be celebrated?

[Torah613]

I hope at least my local ECUSA church will realize that they are Catholic in what they do now and don't need to be continuously looking across the tiber to see "the correct way."

The Versus Populum tradition has been good for bringing people into the Church. And as has been stated before in STR firm theological positions can be developed for both sides of the argument.

Joe Zollars

[pmcleanj]

It is now believed that Christians always faced East.
I don't know how that is confusing.
The result is Rome, will eventually hold all masses the original way, Ad Deum, rather than the new way invented in the 1960s, Ad Populum. This will probably take about 20 years to be fully in effect. Anglicans have always faced East, the Direction God will come again from, and only began facing West after Rome did in the 60's.

As an aside, the 1960's is also the time when we in the Church, made ourselves God.


Actually, the traditional Anglican direction according to the liturgical historians I hang with on another e-list, is North-facing.

I kid you not.

[Aymn27]

Just a question GT assuming that facing east is not possible does this then mean that the mystery should not be celebrated?
well, no jtbdad, if it is from Rome and they face south..then Jesus will have to rework what he said in Scripture and head on up from Dixie - they're able to bind and loose that kinda stuff..;)

[SirTimothy]

AveMaria, hopefully you'll get the prayer of humble access back as well. :)

[TomUK]

At the shrine to St Julian of Norwich near me (an Anglican shrine) mass is always celebrated ad deum - just glorious!

[Simon_Templar]

What if east is towards the congregation??


Also, one of the more recent archeological discoveries, of the oldest known church in Israel had a communion table/alter clearly marked with eucharistic inscriptions. Interestingly it was located in the center of the sanctuary.

[Aymn27]

What if east is towards the congregation??


Also, one of the more recent archeological discoveries, of the oldest known church in Israel had a communion table/alter clearly marked with eucharistic inscriptions. Interestingly it was located in the center of the sanctuary.
GASP! You mean like a table? Oh my Simon - that must be wrong - they must have just moved it for cleaning or something...lol

[Simon_Templar]

GASP! You mean like a table? Oh my Simon - that must be wrong - they must have just moved it for cleaning or something...lol

Well, as the model of the last supper suggests, along with Paul's comments in 1st corinthians. Most of the evidence available from the earliest church suggests that the eucharist was originally celebrated as a communal meal. Not just a ceremony with bread and wine.

I'm sure the very abuses Paul mentioned in corinthians (which included gluttony and drunkenness of those who pigged out during the eucharist.. obviously this would be difficult as it is celebrated today) as well as the logistical difficulties of increasingly large congregations probably lead to the communal meal morphing into the most basic form... IE the most important elements being preserved in ceremony while the rest fell away. As paul said in Corinthians, the eucharistic meal was not about the food and getting your fill, it was about the presense of Christ, and the unity of the body.

These very origins are were we get the term "Mass" from which of course means "table".

[No Swansong]

well, no jtbdad, if it is from Rome and they face south..then Jesus will have to rework what he said in Scripture and head on up from Dixie - they're able to bind and loose that kinda stuff..;)


Oh I wish I were in the land of cotton
Old times there are not forgotten......

[chalice_thunder]

If we are to seek and serve Christ in all people, to literally see the face of God in one another, then wouldn't facing the people be the same as facing God? Or does God reside only in the East End of the building?

[Mysterium_Fidei]

These very origins are were we get the term "Mass" from which of course means "table".

:wave: Just nitpicking, sorry.

Mass means, literally, "sending forth". It comes from the Latin words which concluded the Eucharistic Service, "Ite, missa est". (Go, the dismissal is made.)
It has nothing to do with a table, but rather is a command to go forth into the world after being nurtured with God's Word and Body in the liturgy.

[Aymn27]

If we are to seek and serve Christ in all people, to literally see the face of God in one another, then wouldn't facing the people be the same as facing God? Or does God reside only in the East End of the building?
and is God not present in the Eucharist no matter which side of the table the priest is on? Even if he is on the end he would still be facing God.

[chalice_thunder]

and is God not present in the Eucharist no matter which side of the table the priest is on? Even if he is on the end he would still be facing God.
Agreed.

I reminds me of when I visited York Minster some years ago. We went into one of the side chapels for the Eucharist Celebration. The old Canon doddered out, bowed to the altar, did not acknowledge the people present in any way, shape or form. Then when he went to the Table (on the east end) he did the entire Great Thanksgiving INCLUDING THE SURSUM CORDA with his back to us. Frankly, it was insulting.

[gtsecc]

Actually, the traditional Anglican direction according to the liturgical historians I hang with on another e-list, is North-facing.

I kid you not.
North was for the Gospel reading - proclaiming the Good News to the Barbarians in the North.
I have not heard about facing North for the consecration.

[gtsecc]

Well, as the model of the last supper suggests, along with Paul's comments in 1st corinthians. Most of the evidence available from the earliest church suggests that the eucharist was originally celebrated as a communal meal. Not just a ceremony with bread and wine.

I'm sure the very abuses Paul mentioned in corinthians (which included gluttony and drunkenness of those who pigged out during the eucharist.. obviously this would be difficult as it is celebrated today) as well as the logistical difficulties of increasingly large congregations probably lead to the communal meal morphing into the most basic form... IE the most important elements being preserved in ceremony while the rest fell away. As paul said in Corinthians, the eucharistic meal was not about the food and getting your fill, it was about the presense of Christ, and the unity of the body.
Nope read Dix.

These very origins are were we get the term "Mass" from which of course means "table".
I have always heard it comes from the latin for "dismiss."

[ContraMundum]

The real question is this- if we face East or not- does God still love us?

Does He love us more or less depending on which way we face in worship?

I think this is legalism.

[gtsecc]

The real question is this- if we face East or not- does God still love us?

Does He love us more or less depending on which way we face in worship?

I think this is legalism.
Oh man - God love Christians who don't celebrate the Eucharist.
But, once we know how to do something, it is pride which keeps us from doing i - isn't it?
Seriosuly, if we know somethign is supposed to be a certain way, shouldn't we just do it?

[karen freeinchristman]

But, once we know how to do something, it is pride which keeps us from doing i - isn't it?
Seriosuly, if we know somethign is supposed to be a certain way, shouldn't we just do it?

I think the problem some of us are having is that we do not believe that it is "supposed to" be that certain way.
We just think it's bunk.

[ContraMundum]

What if east is towards the congregation??


Also, one of the more recent archeological discoveries, of the oldest known church in Israel had a communion table/alter clearly marked with eucharistic inscriptions. Interestingly it was located in the center of the sanctuary.

...oh..you mean like the JEWS? :eek:

(Most Christians today unknowingly actually think the first Christians were Jews who converted to Gentile Christianity, not Jews who were completed by the Messiah)

Most Latin and "Orthodox" Christians refuse to accept the fact that Jewish believers and their practices (even when thoroughly in step with the New Testament) were booted out of the church by idiotic early Church leaders. Constantine, who was probably not even a real convert, yet chaired the Council, said

"...it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. (...) Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way." (Eusebius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesarea). "Life of Constantine (Book III (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/25023.htm))

That's the beginning of the attitude that says "the Latin way is the only way".

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

[Naomi4Christ]

I think the problem some of us are having is that we do not believe that it is "supposed to" be that certain way.
We just think it's bunk.

Can't rep you, so just want to say :thumbsup: :amen:

[ContraMundum]

Oh man - God love Christians who don't celebrate the Eucharist.
But, once we know how to do something, it is pride which keeps us from doing i - isn't it?
Seriosuly, if we know somethign is supposed to be a certain way, shouldn't we just do it?

How do we know we're "supposed" to do it any way at all? The only clues we have of how Christ and the first Christians celebrated the eucharist are found in the NT- and not one reference gives us any direction to face, but in fact, the eucharist appears to be based on the Passover meal, which is done on a table, usually at home.

Those who claim that we are "supposed" to face east only have later Christian tradition to call upon, and thus, the more educated ones readily admit that you can face any way you like and still have a valid sacrament.

East is nice and symbolic and all that, but it is far from essential to the sacrament.

[gtsecc]

I think the problem some of us are having is that we do not believe that it is "supposed to" be that certain way.
We just think it's bunk.

Sure you do, but no one has taught you anything any differently, and you haven't spend much time learning about liturgy.

You don't think liturgy is all that important.

What if a potential convert to Christianity didn't seek out knowledge or read things suggsted to them?
What if they just did what they felt like, ignored what they didn't like?

I am not attacking you, but you feel it is junk - think would mean you had an interest in it, and spent some time learning about it. :)

[gtsecc]

Can't rep you, so just want to say :thumbsup: :amen:


I think the sex of the priest isn't all that important either - but, after studying the issue, I reallize it is something I need to care about because it has huge effects on the communion. So, I try to have an informed opion that isn't based upon my feelings, but ratehr the wisdom of the Church.

[Simon_Templar]

:wave: Just nitpicking, sorry.

Mass means, literally, "sending forth". It comes from the Latin words which concluded the Eucharistic Service, "Ite, missa est". (Go, the dismissal is made.)
It has nothing to do with a table, but rather is a command to go forth into the world after being nurtured with God's Word and Body in the liturgy.

You're right. I had been told by my priest that the term mass was derived from "table" because we were coming to the lord's table yadda yadda...

Upon looking into it, you are correct about the etymology.

[karen freeinchristman]

You don't think liturgy is all that important. I didn't say that. I do not think the way the celebrant faces is important. Please do not assume to know what I think unless I state it. :)

What if a potential convert to Christianity didn't seek out knowledge or read things suggsted to them?
What if they just did what they felt like, ignored what they didn't like?

I am not attacking you, but you feel it is junk - think would mean you had an interest in it, and spent some time learning about it. :)
Please, do not try to force your views on others. I have a different priority in working out my faith than you do. My priority has to do with the Kingdom of God. I did not say it was junk, I said it was bunk. This means I do not believe it to be of importance. No matter how much I come to appreciate church history and church tradition in the future, I will never believe that this type of stylistic legalism is of any importance to God. You can believe otherwise if you so choose.

[SirTimothy]

Nope read Dix.

The impression I'm getting, glen, is that you're entire eucharistic theology is based upon Dix. Now, I'm not saying he's not a scholar at all, but he's Orthodox, and thus he's going to be biased and deliberately pick the sources which show how things are going to be done the Orthodox way. Everyone who is convinced that they are the 'one true church' and do things the 'one true way' are going to think that. That's one of the beauties of the Anglican church... we don't ever claim either. We say the one true church is where: 'the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments are duly administered'.

[longhair75]

friend gtsecc,

where might one find the documentation for the approved direction one must face in conducting worship? when did the direction begin to change from this approved direction to others? how should the worship service be conducted in a church built on, for example, a north south axis with the altar place in the north end?

lastly, as anglicans, why should we be concerned about how rome decides to conduct their services?

[Tetzel]

Part of worship is being obedient, and not making it about us, which I content is the error of the mega praise and worship churches.

If the Mass was always East facing, then why not be obedient and face East?


I can understand wanting to do things the traditional way, but obedience requires some kind of command. Where is the Face East command in scripture?

[Tetzel]

Church the way YOU want it, isn't the Christian message. (nto directed at YOU Aymn22)n

I find your comment humorous in the sense that it seems that you are the only one who gives a rip about which way the pastor is facing during worship. Who is really advocating that church be the way they want, I doubt it is the people who don't care either way.

[Tetzel]

Actually, the traditional Anglican direction according to the liturgical historians I hang with on another e-list, is North-facing.

I kid you not.

Ok, so assuming that I am sitting in the pew, this means that if I extend my left hand to my side, it will point in the direction that the pastor is facing? Weird!

[Tetzel]

GASP! You mean like a table? Oh my Simon - that must be wrong - they must have just moved it for cleaning or something...lol


Don't you realize that the church has always, at all times and places done things in certain ways, except for the times before they came up with how to do it that way? ;)

[Tetzel]

Agreed.

I reminds me of when I visited York Minster some years ago. We went into one of the side chapels for the Eucharist Celebration. The old Canon doddered out, bowed to the altar, did not acknowledge the people present in any way, shape or form. Then when he went to the Table (on the east end) he did the entire Great Thanksgiving INCLUDING THE SURSUM CORDA with his back to us. Frankly, it was insulting.

If I were to lead worship I would face East simply because it would be more comfortable for me not to see the people in a public speaking sense, and I would be able to look to the notes without them seeing that I was using them because my robes would block their views.

[gtsecc]

friend gtsecc,

where might one find the documentation for the approved direction one must face in conducting worship?
Books on the history of the liturgy, and the fact that the EO and OO still do it that way, and maintain they haven't changed.

when did the direction begin to change from this approved direction to others?
Vatican 2 - and of course, if Rome Catches a cold, we sneeze.

how should the worship service be conducted in a church built on, for example, a north south axis with the altar place in the north end?
Most Churches are built with the altar at the East, however in the case of an altar in the North, for example, that woudl be consiered liturgical East.

lastly, as anglicans, why should we be concerned about how rome decides to conduct their services?
If we weren't, none of our altar would have been ripped out, and none of use woudl have Ad Populum masses. I hope no one thinks I said it was a Good thing that we copy Rome, merely it is an undeniable fact that we do - every parish with a table for a west facing Eucharist has copied Rome.

[gtsecc]

I can understand wanting to do things the traditional way, but obedience requires some kind of command. Where is the Face East command in scripture?
No one has ever assumed the bible contained all the liturgical rubrics. When did you come to the conclusion it did? Which Eucharistic prayer is in there? You have to remember the Eucharist has been celebrated over 100,000 time since 33AD. For the first few thousand, there was no Bible. Scripture was read, but it woudl no occur to someoen in 35 AD to say, which way does the Bible tell us to face? Thta is nto what teh Bible tells. However, thigns that do adress liturgical direction, do tell us face East - Christ is coming again in the East.

[gitlance]

FACTOID ALERT:

Just as an interesting fact... altars have not always exclusively faced east. In many of the large Catholic (Latin-rite) basilicas (such as St. Peter's) there is a central altar in which the presiding bishop would face the people during the Mass.

I think we have evidence that there has always been the tradition of both facing away from the people or facing towards the people, depending on various factors (east/west, type of church architecture, etc).

As has been said, the direction of the altar is neither part of the form, substance, nor intent which is required for a proper celebration of the Mass.

I do agree, however, that there is a very rich symbolism in the priest facing pro Deum.

END ALERT

[gtsecc]

I find your comment humorous in the sense that it seems that you are the only one who gives a rip about which way the pastor is facing during worship. Who is really advocating that church be the way they want, I doubt it is the people who don't care either way.
It isn't humourus at all. It speaks to the chaos the Church is in. I suppose we should care since the entire Eastern Church faces East, and all 1,000,000,000 Roman Catholics are going to move back to facing East - I am certainly NOT the only one who cares. And the opponents never give theological answers - they say some sort of version of who cares what Christians do, we feel like doing it this way, and God loves us anyway. Where is the sense of humility and obedience? There are plenty of denomination which make up their own religion, but hopefully Anglcains won't show themselves to be this way.

[gtsecc]

FACTOID ALERT:

Just as an interesting fact... altars have not always exclusively faced east. In many of the large Catholic (Latin-rite) basilicas (such as St. Peter's) there is a central altar in which the presiding bishop would face the people during the Mass.
But, St. Peters is oriented so that He is facign East when facnig the People.


I think we have evidence that there has always been the tradition of both facing away from the people or facing towards the people, depending on various factors (east/west, type of church architecture, etc).
The latest I have is from +Benedict and he says that was faulty scholarship.

As has been said, the direction of the altar is neither part of the form, substance, nor intent which is required for a proper celebration of the Mass.
Agreed 100% but, I sense it is the outward sign of inner disobedience in the AC - We do what we feel like doing, theology be darned.

You want gay priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want women priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want an abortion?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

Where is our sense of having recieved a faith that we are obedient to?

I find it so troubling I could throw up.

[Tetzel]

No one has ever assumed the bible contained all the liturgical rubrics. When did you come to the conclusion it did? Which Eucharistic prayer is in there? You have to remember the Eucharist has been celebrated over 100,000 time since 33AD. For the first few thousand, there was no Bible. Scripture was read, but it woudl no occur to someoen in 35 AD to say, which way does the Bible tell us to face? Thta is nto what teh Bible tells. However, thigns that do adress liturgical direction, do tell us face East - Christ is coming again in the East.

Are liturgical rubrics on the same level as scripture? You are the one who has somehow vested facing the "proper" direction with distinction of being commanded. Where are these commands?

[gitlance]

But, St. Peters is oriented so that He is facign East when facnig the People.



The latest I have is from +Benedict and he says that was faulty scholarship.


Agreed 100% but, I sense it is the outward sign of inner disobedience in the AC - We do what we feel like doing, theology be darned.

You want gay priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want women priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want an abortion?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

Where is our sense of having recieved a faith that we are obedient to?

I find it so troubling I could throw up.
Well, I can't really say much as I do not want anybody to think I am debating, but I am in agreement with you. It is indeed very rare to find a classical parish where the altar is not facing east. It is poor scholarship for the priests to face pro populi, and Rome realizes that. This new translation didn't have so much to do with the American Bishops voting on it, but rather with Rome telling them they were going to accept it whether they liked it or not. There are some striking changes coming to the Mass in the Catholic west, and we may very well begin to see the NO rite more universally celebrated as it was intended to be by Pope Paul VI.

Interestingly enough, the Missal implies that the priest is still facing pro Deum, as it tells him when to turn around and look at the people.

Just as an additional fact, this idea of the priests facing the people has been largely only an American/Canadian phenomenon. Most parishes in Europe and elsewhere did not bother to move their old altars.

Of course you know that the Church of the Good Shepherd has not ever moved their main altar, but the new chapel they built has a pro populi altar. Why do you suppose that is?

[Tetzel]

It isn't humourus at all. It speaks to the chaos the Church is in. I suppose we should care since the entire Eastern Church faces East, and all 1,000,000,000 Roman Catholics are going to move back to facing East - I am certainly NOT the only one who cares. And the opponents never give theological answers - they say some sort of version of who cares what Christians do, we feel like doing it this way, and God loves us anyway. Where is the sense of humility and obedience? There are plenty of denomination which make up their own religion, but hopefully Anglcains won't show themselves to be this way.

Where is the command? You claim obedience but don't ever point to where you are told to face east. Is God telling you to face east or are you just looking at what other people do (or often actually don't do ) and deciding if they do it, it must be right?

[Naomi4Christ]

What do RC practices have to do with how we serve the Lord?

[Tetzel]

FACTOID ALERT:

Just as an interesting fact... altars have not always exclusively faced east. In many of the large Catholic (Latin-rite) basilicas (such as St. Peter's) there is a central altar in which the presiding bishop would face the people during the Mass.

I think we have evidence that there has always been the tradition of both facing away from the people or facing towards the people, depending on various factors (east/west, type of church architecture, etc).

As has been said, the direction of the altar is neither part of the form, substance, nor intent which is required for a proper celebration of the Mass.

I do agree, however, that there is a very rich symbolism in the priest facing pro Deum.

END ALERT

I agree with your statements and I also prefer it when the pastor faces East

[gtsecc]

What do RC practices have to do with how we serve the Lord?
They have a huge effect on us - We have Rite 2 and West facing masses for one reason only - we copied them after vatican 2. Maybe we shouldn't care - all I am saying is that we do care, and we copy them, and it effects us.

[SirTimothy]

'62 BCP quote:

"The Table at the Communion-time having a fair whiet linen cloth upon it, shall stand in the Body of the Church, or in the Chancel, where Morning and Evening Prayer are appointed to be said. And the Priest standing at the north side of the Table, shall say the Lord's Prayer, with the Collect following, the people kneeling."

[gtsecc]

Our Priest did exactly that today - Stood on the North side, but was facing East.

[Naomi4Christ]

'62 BCP quote:

"The Table at the Communion-time having a fair whiet linen cloth upon it, shall stand in the Body of the Church, or in the Chancel, where Morning and Evening Prayer are appointed to be said. And the Priest standing at the north side of the Table, shall say the Lord's Prayer, with the Collect following, the people kneeling."

Our table is in the chancel, and has a fair white linen cloth. The vicar stands behind it (East) facing the congregation. When we used our Altar, which is against the East wall (no space to stand behind it), the vicar stood to the left of it (with his back to the North, but cocking his head westwards, towards the congregation).

However....

We say the Collect for Purity near the beginning of the service and the Lord's Prayer after intercessions (just prior to The Peace). And we don't kneel...

[SirTimothy]

Hmm. I like kneeling, but appreciate most parishes (including mine :() don't have the space.

[SirTimothy]

And whatever, I hate "Ad deum" celebration. My hearing is greatly improved over a few years ago, but I still struggle to hear some celebrants, and being a beat behind the rest of the congregation means I end up lipreading sometimes

Timothy

[Naomi4Christ]

And whatever, I hate "Ad deum" celebration. My hearing is greatly improved over a few years ago, but I still struggle to hear some celebrants, and being a beat behind the rest of the congregation means I end up lipreading sometimes

Timothy

No sound system?

[SirTimothy]

Hah. We have a sound system, if you want to call it that. No wireless clip-on mics though, just one on the pulpit.

At least I can thank God that we don't have one of those atrociously bad table mics that I heard in the UK. When the Celebrant poured out the wine you could hear ever clink of the glass against the silver and it was waaaaaay too noisy.

ETA: The best thing is a clip-on mic and a pair of small-diagphram condensor mics one at either end of the Table. They're ugly as anything, but it really helps.

Timothy

[Naomi4Christ]

Hah. We have a sound system, if you want to call it that. No wireless clip-on mics though, just one on the pulpit.

At least I can thank God that we don't have one of those atrociously bad table mics that I heard in the UK. When the Celebrant poured out the wine you could hear ever clink of the glass against the silver and it was waaaaaay too noisy.

ETA: The best thing is a clip-on mic and a pair of small-diagphram condensor mics one at either end of the Table. They're ugly as anything, but it really helps.

Timothy

We have five radio mikes, two hand helds, and one on the lectern. This doesn't include the huge array that the worship group has.

Even then, it can still be difficult to hear at times. I know when we have had visiting preachers from Nigeria, for example, together with crying babies, it can be very hard to hear without some element of lip reading.

I think we are very blessed to have a sound system. One wonders how they managed when the church was built - must have been very good at projecting. Saying that, the acoustics lend themselves to sound travelling (something that is not welcome when we have small group discussions (such as Alpha) or intimate discussions (such as The Marriage Course).

[SirTimothy]

Hmmm... this sounds like a new thread. Church PA systems...

[Naomi4Christ]

Hmmm... this sounds like a new thread. Church PA systems...

But I really don't know what I am talking about :)

All I know is that I get very nervous when I am miked up in case they broadcast my telling off my children...

[SirTimothy]

Treat any microphone as a live mic and you'll be fine. :)

[Naomi4Christ]

Treat any microphone as a live mic and you'll be fine. :)

Good advice :D

[svdbygrace]

Both Altars in the local RC Parishes face West. The Altar in the ECUSA Parish faces North, the Altar in our Church faces South, i'm not sure any of our Altars face East.

[Torah613]

Books on the history of the liturgy, and the fact that the EO and OO still do it that way, and maintain they haven't changed.


Vatican 2 - and of course, if Rome Catches a cold, we sneeze.


Most Churches are built with the altar at the East, however in the case of an altar in the North, for example, that woudl be consiered liturgical East.


If we weren't, none of our altar would have been ripped out, and none of use woudl have Ad Populum masses. I hope no one thinks I said it was a Good thing that we copy Rome, merely it is an undeniable fact that we do - every parish with a table for a west facing Eucharist has copied Rome.

Oh my. Actually there is photographic evidince of Mass being said "facing the people instead of God" as far back as the forties. And in case you've forgotten GTSecc that includes the "golden age" of Catholicism--the fifties.

Making such gross stereotypes is hardly attractive. Also claiming that the Liturgy must be said facing East is very, well--un Christian. It puts God in a box, claims that Grace is not a freegift of God etc etc etc.

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

No one has ever assumed the bible contained all the liturgical rubrics. When did you come to the conclusion it did? Which Eucharistic prayer is in there? You have to remember the Eucharist has been celebrated over 100,000 time since 33AD. For the first few thousand, there was no Bible. Scripture was read, but it woudl no occur to someoen in 35 AD to say, which way does the Bible tell us to face? Thta is nto what teh Bible tells. However, thigns that do adress liturgical direction, do tell us face East - Christ is coming again in the East.

If it is not in Scripute, it is a tradition of Man and not binding for salvation. Simply put.

joe Zollars

[Torah613]

It isn't humourus at all. It speaks to the chaos the Church is in. I suppose we should care since the entire Eastern Church faces East, and all 1,000,000,000 Roman Catholics are going to move back to facing East - I am certainly NOT the only one who cares. And the opponents never give theological answers - they say some sort of version of who cares what Christians do, we feel like doing it this way, and God loves us anyway. Where is the sense of humility and obedience? There are plenty of denomination which make up their own religion, but hopefully Anglcains won't show themselves to be this way.

How about being Anglican instead of pretending to be RC?

Oh and BTW the Maronites do not do it Pro Deum as you describe. Some Syriac churches are the same way, particularly in monastic settings.

Joe Zollars

[Torah613]

man I thought I had escaped all this foolishness when I left the SSPX. Apparently they aren't the only pharisees on the block.....

[Naomi4Christ]

Both Altars in the local RC Parishes face West. The Altar in the ECUSA Parish faces North, the Altar in our Church faces South, i'm not sure any of our Altars face East.

Doesn't your altar have six faces :scratch:

[svdbygrace]

Doesn't your altar have six faces :scratch:

Yes... :blush:

I mean our Altar is against the Southern wall of the Church. :)

The Altar in the ECUSA parish against the Northern Wall of the Church.

[ContraMundum]

man I thought I had escaped all this foolishness when I left the SSPX. Apparently they aren't the only pharisees on the block.....

Wow....you escaped from the SSPX with your faith in God intact?

Well done. I'm always impressed when people leave cults and live to tell the tale. You must share your thoughts and experiences with us sometime!

:thumbsup:

[No Swansong]

Most Churches are built with the altar at the East, however in the case of an altar in the North, for example, that woudl be consiered liturgical East.




So North would be considered liturgically East? WOW!

[No Swansong]

You want gay priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want women priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want an abortion?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

Where is our sense of having recieved a faith that we are obedient to?

I find it so troubling I could throw up.


I am actually beginning to see your point, sort of a modified slippery slope ideal. (Coincidentally this would also apply I suppose to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary debate in another thread.)

[No Swansong]

Treat any microphone as a live mic and you'll be fine. :)


Does anyone here remember Ronald Reagan's microphone guffaw?

It was hilarious and an excellent reason to take seriously the above advice.

[No Swansong]

man I thought I had escaped all this foolishness when I left the SSPX. Apparently they aren't the only pharisees on the block.....


Joe to be fair I am not sure that I would argue that desire to maintain what appears to be Tradition is pharasaical. I may not agree but I do not believe it to be legalistic.

[Torah613]

Wow....you escaped from the SSPX with your faith in God intact?

Well done. I'm always impressed when people leave cults and live to tell the tale. You must share your thoughts and experiences with us sometime!

:thumbsup:

I escaped not only the SSPX, but also the SSPV and the Greek Old Calandrists with my faith intact. How is beyond me.

Joe Zollars

[karen freeinchristman]

I escaped not only the SSPX, but also the SSPV and the Greek Old Calandrists with my faith intact. How is beyond me.

Joe Zollars

By the Grace of God!

[ContraMundum]

You want gay priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want women priests?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want an abortion?
Sure ECUSA blesses you - to heck with what the rest of the Church thinks.

You want classical Christian orthodoxy? What?
Sadly- ECUSA thinks you're out of step with the church and maybe you should leave.

You want things to remain as they always have?
Sadly- ECUSA thinks you should find another church- try the LCMS or WELS.

Where is our sense of having recieved a faith that we are obedient to?

Gone. Dead and gone. It went out when the culture embraced free-for-all moral relativism. It went out when individualism overran the idea of the Church as a communion of saints.

I find it so troubling I could throw up.

When I first felt that way I didn't throw up my lunch, I threw down the gauntlet.

[ContraMundum]

I escaped not only the SSPX, but also the SSPV and the Greek Old Calandrists with my faith intact. How is beyond me.

Joe Zollars

You have to tell us about that some day!

I've just recently helped someone leave the SSPX, and boy was it nasty! There is no honourable way out of a cult.

[higgs2]

Fallacy of the beard?

[SirTimothy]

You want things to remain as they always have?

Ummm... You should come visit our province, dude. :)