Conflicted

[ClementofRome]

I took a real risk today and am now conflicted.

My sister is in a nasty custody battle (VERY long story) and it took a very bad turn for her over the past few weeks. The hearing was today. I cannot share any information except to say that the hearing today was to be permanent. It was a lost cause...

I have been praying nearly constantly for her and the situation for some time, but over the past week my prayers for her had escalated. I was angry at God for having not intervened in the past and was nearly at the point of challenging Him over this situation (her husband is a tyrant). I prayed to God the Father....I prayed to Christ....I prayed that the Holy Spirit would intervene. As the hearing was in another time zone from which I live (ahead), I was waking up at dawn and it happened to be the exact time that the hearing was to begin. I suddenly was moved to pray to the Theotokos and to Saint Clement that they would intercede in my behalf to Christ to intervene in this situation. I have NEVER prayed to Mary or a Saint and as a Protestant inquirer am still very squimish about it. I do not know where this sudden desire originated and had thought about little previously (except in an academic sort of way).

A miracle of sorts took place at the hearing. An outcome totally unexpected such that her lawyer is still blown away. I am blown away. We are all blown away. Not a perfect outcome, but a major victory and more time to settle the case in a just manner. This has been an ongoing situation for almost 2 years and nothing like this has ever been the outcome.

I am conflicted. Incredibly grateful and thankful beyond words, but conflicted. :crosseo:

[Jacob4707]

I took a real risk today and am now conflicted.

My sister is in a nasty custody battle (VERY long story) and it took a very bad turn for her over the past few weeks. The hearing was today. I cannot share any information except to say that the hearing today was to be permanent. It was a lost cause...

I have been praying nearly constantly for her and the situation for some time, but over the past week my prayers for her had escalated. I was angry at God for having not intervened in the past and was nearly at the point of challenging Him over this situation (her husband is a tyrant). I prayed to God the Father....I prayed to Christ....I prayed that the Holy Spirit would intervene. As the hearing was in another time zone from which I live (ahead), I was waking up at dawn and it happened to be the exact time that the hearing was to begin. I suddenly was moved to pray to the Theotokos and to Saint Clement that they would intercede in my behalf to Christ to intervene in this situation. I have NEVER prayed to Mary or a Saint and as a Protestant inquirer am still very squimish about it. I do not know where this sudden desire originated and had thought about little previously (except in an academic sort of way).

A miracle of sorts took place at the hearing. An outcome totally unexpected such that her lawyer is still blown away. I am blown away. We are all blown away. Not a perfect outcome, but a major victory and more time to settle the case in a just manner. This has been an ongoing situation for almost 2 years and nothing like this has ever been the outcome.

I am conflicted. Incredibly grateful and thankful beyond words, but conflicted. :crosseo:

I, too, am a Protestant Inquirer, and just finished reading a fabulous book, FATHER ARSENY 1893-1973: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father.

It is an amazing book, and probably every Orthodox person who has read it will recommend it. It will increase your faith and impress on you what it means to be a Christian.

The priest, as well as many of the people whose accounts are described, often prayed to the Mother of God, and received answers to prayers and miraculous interventions. This naturally has left me conflicted like you are.

I cannot reject the deep Christian faith of Father Arseny, so I have to accept his reverence for The Mother of God, and must be open to this non-Protestant aspect of the faith.

Thank God, Jesus and the Theotokos for your sister's outcome, read FATHER ARSENY ... and keep praying. :crossrc::crosseo:

[Orthosdoxa]

:clap:

Scripture tells us the fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much... and who is more righteous than those who have completed the race, in faith and love and persevering until the end? Scripture also tells us we are surrounded by this cloud of witnesses - so of course they pray for us!

My hubs and I are solidly convinced it was the prayers of the Mother of God and of St. John Maximovitch that saved our twins when I was hemorrhaging heavily at 15 weeks. The situation looked so hopeless, I can still get choked up about it. The saints love us, their family on earth, and pray for us without ceasing. The nature of the Church - that the "dead" never stop being a part of it - and in fact are more alive than we are - just blows my mind. We are eternally mystically connected through the Body. I am now 28 weeks along and we still regularly ask our friends in heaven to continue praying for these precious babies during this difficult pregnancy.

So glad you got to experience part of the mystery and miracle for yourself. God is good, no? :)

LK

[eoe]

It took a first person slap in the head experience to convince me that relics were a real thing too. It hurts to get slapped in the head like that. It forces you to reevaluate things that you have held to be true for a long time. When you get something like this that is direct and obvious, well... you gotta rethink things.

Sometimes the Ox has to be dragged to the watering hole.

[ClementofRome]

Sometimes the Ox has to be dragged to the watering hole.


uhhhh, that would be "kicking and screaming to the watering hole!" :crosseo:

[Orthocat]

:clap:

Scripture tells us the fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much... and who is more righteous than those who have completed the race, in faith and love and persevering until the end? Scripture also tells us we are surrounded by this cloud of witnesses - so of course they pray for us!

My hubs and I are solidly convinced it was the prayers of the Mother of God and of St. John Maximovitch that saved our twins when I was hemorrhaging heavily at 15 weeks. The situation looked so hopeless, I can still get choked up about it. The saints love us, their family on earth, and pray for us without ceasing. The nature of the Church - that the "dead" never stop being a part of it - and in fact are more alive than we are - just blows my mind. We are eternally mystically connected through the Body. I am now 28 weeks along and we still regularly ask our friends in heaven to continue praying for these precious babies during this difficult pregnancy.

So glad you got to experience part of the mystery and miracle for yourself. God is good, no? :)

LK
Beautiful.

You will be remembered in my prayers as well.

Be encouraged - these will be very special children of God throughout their lives.

[ClementofRome]

:clap:

Scripture tells us the fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much... and who is more righteous than those who have completed the race, in faith and love and persevering until the end? Scripture also tells us we are surrounded by this cloud of witnesses - so of course they pray for us!

My hubs and I are solidly convinced it was the prayers of the Mother of God and of St. John Maximovitch that saved our twins when I was hemorrhaging heavily at 15 weeks. The situation looked so hopeless, I can still get choked up about it. The saints love us, their family on earth, and pray for us without ceasing. The nature of the Church - that the "dead" never stop being a part of it - and in fact are more alive than we are - just blows my mind. We are eternally mystically connected through the Body. I am now 28 weeks along and we still regularly ask our friends in heaven to continue praying for these precious babies during this difficult pregnancy.

So glad you got to experience part of the mystery and miracle for yourself. God is good, no? :)

LK

Thanks for the encouragement. You will be in my prayers as well.
Clement

[Jacob4707]

It took a first person slap in the head experience to convince me that relics were a real thing too. It hurts to get slapped in the head like that. It forces you to reevaluate things that you have held to be true for a long time. When you get something like this that is direct and obvious, well... you gotta rethink things.

Sometimes the Ox has to be dragged to the watering hole.

As one who also feels he is being drawn kicking and screaming to this, could you elaborate on this incident?

[elizabethevangeline]

When I 1st started visiting an Orthodox church, someone gently suggested that I ask for intercession from the Theotokos (specifically for peace, I think). Within a week or so, my 5 yr old fainted at school. As I drove to the school to join him and the ambulance my mind was racing...and I remembered the suggestion and as I hadn't had time to ask anyone else to pray for us, I asked her to pray. By the time I arrived at the school, I was calm. We went to the ER, son had a CAT scan, etc., but the whole day was peaceful. My 5 yr old (the strong-willed one) was praised for his bravery and cooperation...he really was amazing. The school principal later told me they were impressed by how calm I was. It really was an unusual experience...real peace, not just the "holding myself together to be calm" routine.

[choirfiend]

I have been praying nearly constantly for her and the situation for some time, but over the past week my prayers for her had escalated.

I suddenly was moved to pray to the Theotokos and to Saint Clement that they would intercede in my behalf to Christ to intervene in this situation.

A miracle of sorts took place at the hearing.


Praise God! He heard all of your prayers!!!
I think He hears even more easily those who are at peace with Him and not praying through a distorted heart. Certainly they can offer that pure sacrifice of praise even when we, poor foolish confused things that we are, are angry or sad or lost.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I took a real risk today and am now conflicted.

My sister is in a nasty custody battle (VERY long story) and it took a very bad turn for her over the past few weeks. The hearing was today. I cannot share any information except to say that the hearing today was to be permanent. It was a lost cause...

I have been praying nearly constantly for her and the situation for some time, but over the past week my prayers for her had escalated. I was angry at God for having not intervened in the past and was nearly at the point of challenging Him over this situation (her husband is a tyrant). I prayed to God the Father....I prayed to Christ....I prayed that the Holy Spirit would intervene. As the hearing was in another time zone from which I live (ahead), I was waking up at dawn and it happened to be the exact time that the hearing was to begin. I suddenly was moved to pray to the Theotokos and to Saint Clement that they would intercede in my behalf to Christ to intervene in this situation. I have NEVER prayed to Mary or a Saint and as a Protestant inquirer am still very squimish about it. I do not know where this sudden desire originated and had thought about little previously (except in an academic sort of way).

A miracle of sorts took place at the hearing. An outcome totally unexpected such that her lawyer is still blown away. I am blown away. We are all blown away. Not a perfect outcome, but a major victory and more time to settle the case in a just manner. This has been an ongoing situation for almost 2 years and nothing like this has ever been the outcome.

I am conflicted. Incredibly grateful and thankful beyond words, but conflicted. :crosseo:

Glory to God in the highest! :clap:

Having been the child in custody hearings, I know how painful they can be. I'm glad that a favorable judgment was returned.

May God continue to richly bless you and your family, and continue to guide you on your journey.

In XC,

Maureen

[DonVA]

Isn't it amazing when your wishes and God's will are in line? What beautiful and miraculous stories you've shared here! Pray through the conflict. Celebrate life's victories. Praise the Lord. You have The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, AND all the saints watching over your family.

Glory To God Almighty!

[Colabomb]

I have come to belief in the Intercession of the Saints. However, I have never been able to bring myself to actually ask for intercession.

I was raised a fundementalist, and old habits die hard.

[pjw]

I have come to belief in the Intercession of the Saints. However, I have never been able to bring myself to actually ask for intercession.

I was raised a fundementalist, and old habits die hard.
i think you're in the same boat as me. :)
although i'm not convinced about asking the saints for their intercession, it now seems sure to me that they pray for the Church on earth, particularly the fact of the holy martyrs under God's throne crying out for the fulfillment of God's Kingdom and the downfall of his enemies.

[cobweb]

I think I'm in that boat, too.

[Mary of Bethany]

I have come to belief in the Intercession of the Saints. However, I have never been able to bring myself to actually ask for intercession.

I was raised a fundementalist, and old habits die hard.

Having been raised Baptist, I was in that boat for a long time, too. I had intellectually accepted it, but it took several years (as an Anglican, then Orthodox) to actually practice it. Being given a patron saint probably helped the most; it was easy to start asking her intercessions first.

Mary

[SumTinWong]

I am conflicted. Incredibly grateful and thankful beyond words, but conflicted. :crosseo:
Wonderful news for you and your sister, by the way, i am glad things worked out.

I too had an experience where I felt like I needed to make my peace with Mary, and so one day while Father was talking to someone else during our meeting I went to the icon of Mary and had a "talk" with her. I felt better about things, but to be quite honest nothing happend as a result. The only difference I felt was that I "got it out of my system" and cleared the air with how I was feeling.

Today i still only ask Jesus for help. Is it possible or even probable that the prayers of Mary and the Saints could be more powerful than mine? Perhaps, but I will take my chances and continue to deal direct ;)

Have a great day and congrats again with your sister's situation!

[Mary of Bethany]

I know you've heard all this before, Uncle Bud, and I'm not trying to beat you over the head with it :) , but I'm finding more and more that I desire the intercessions of others - here and in Heaven.

My mom has advanced breast cancer, and my son recently found that his thyroid cancer was not gone, and will have surgery in ten days to remove lymph nodes on both sides of his neck.

I ask everyone I know to pray for both of them, and a whole litany of Saints are getting my requests! I start out with my own prayer to Christ Jesus, but then I continue on to the Theotokos and other Saints. I know my own prayers are feeble and selfish, and I just want as many Christians as possible praying for those I love.

Just my experience - I know you have your own thoughts about it.

:crosseo:

Mary

[SumTinWong]

I know you've heard all this before, Uncle Bud, and I'm not trying to beat you over the head with it :) , but I'm finding more and more that I desire the intercessions of others - here and in Heaven.

My mom has advanced breast cancer, and my son recently found that his thyroid cancer was not gone, and will have surgery in ten days to remove lymph nodes on both sides of his neck.

I ask everyone I know to pray for both of them, and a whole litany of Saints are getting my requests! I start out with my own prayer to Christ Jesus, but then I continue on to the Theotokos and other Saints. I know my own prayers are feeble and selfish, and I just want as many Christians as possible praying for those I love.

Just my experience - I know you have your own thoughts about it.

:crosseo:

Mary
To each their own I guess. :) As I said many are comfortable with and I am not one of the many :)

[irishseventysix]

I was definitely in this boat as an Evangelical Protestant. I used to think that asking for the intercession of the saints was somehow akin to the Eastern practices of worshipping dead ancestors.

Then I made close friends with a few Catholics, and they explained to me that asking for their intercessions is no different than my asking you to pray for me...especially because I'm surrounded by them rooting me on (Heb. 12). I accepted this after a while idealogically, but I also thought that it was something that I understood, and it was something that Scripture didn't prohibit, but it wouldn't be anything I would ever really feel comfortable doing.

After visiting an Orthodox church a few times, I began to realize the beauty of the Church's practice of unity among believers past and present and that death doesn't break that unity because Christ conquered it. So I am never really alone. That was so comforting to me.

At first, it was tough because I didn't know who to pray to for what and how. But after a while, I remembered that asking the saints to pray for me or a particular issue is JUST like asking my room mate to pray for me, or anyone else.

But I wanted to experience what I could and was open to, of that unity among believers, and so I, without understanding fully, began to ask for the intercessions of the Theotokos, (and later of St. Jude, whose name I'd take) and crossing myself in Liturgy at her invokation. And it was almost instantly that my eyes and heart were opened and I began to feel a greater love for her and them, I began to understand why and how to interact with them, and I grew in respect for the saints as people who point me to God.

They understand my struggle. They were further down the road than I am. They have arrived. So they can lead me, not with dim vision, but seeing, to Christ through this world as examples...just like Father or my Godfather or anyone else of authority...except that they're actually in his presence.

This helped me immensely with the "Lone Ranger" sense I had about my Christianity. It's also helped me be more watchful in what I say and do, though you probably wouldn't know by seeing me every day and hearing the sin that often comes out of this mouth.

Anyway, I don't know if this helps, but I did want you to know that coming from where you do, it's natural. And that sometimes taking a step of faith into this, trusting, is the best thing you can do.

Peace,

[The Virginian]

I took a real risk today and am now conflicted.

My sister is in a nasty custody battle (VERY long story) and it took a very bad turn for her over the past few weeks....

I have been praying nearly constantly for her and the situation for some time, but over the past week my prayers for her had escalated... I suddenly was moved to pray to the Theotokos and to Saint Clement that they would intercede in my behalf to Christ to intervene in this situation....

A miracle of sorts took place at the hearing....

I am conflicted. Incredibly grateful and thankful beyond words, but conflicted. :crosseo:

Imagine how hard it was to Saul, a Roman, a Pharisee of pharisees, a persecutor of the Church, to suddenly face the fact that Jesus Christ was the Messiah!

It seems to me that your problem stems from a long history of Protestant doctrinal teaching, that Mary was nothing more than a Hebrew virgin, who humbly submited to the will of God. There was a concert in the Baptist affiliated University, the singer was an old rocker turned monk. My friend and I sat in the back until he mentioned that we should all venerated the Mother of God. We both got up and walked out. Tell me that God doesn't have a sense of humor!

If you've subscribed to "Sola Scriptura", the problem of your confliction is severe. How does one still believe that the Scriptures are true, especially where they mention the family situation of the Virgin Mary. She indeed gave birth to Jesus, who Himself stated that "I and the Father are one." This means that Mary is indeed the Theotokos, the Mother of God. And, her Magnificat, a part of the Tradition of Scripture ends with her statement, a part of Scripture, which itself says that "...all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable..."

There have been some praiseworthy men of note who have helped formulate Protestant doctrine. To summarily set aside the teachings which they in some cases gave their lives for,.... I understand the situation.

To be intellectually honest, to be humble spiritually, calls for nothing less than accepting the Truth of the witnes of the Word of God! The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, whom all men venerate and call blessed. And, we do have as a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, those who in Christ live forever, who in His presence see our lives and intercede for us.

Scripture is more to be believed, than the men and women of note who have stood for the truth of the Scriture as they understood it. Be F. A. T. faithful, available, teachable. :crosseo:

[ClementofRome]

Thank you Virginian.

[MariaRegina]

Glory to Jesus Christ.
Glory forever.

Thank you, Clement, for sharing that miracle with us.

[Eusebios]

Clement,
I too struggled with this, as I'm convinced most EPs do. It took what I considered to be a miraculous encounter with the Most Holy Theotokos to help me get beyond my hang ups.
As to your experience all I can say is Glory to God, and masy He continue to draw you unto Himself via your prayers and those who have gone before.
God is wonderful in His saints!
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

[Jacob4707]

Clement,
I too struggled with this, as I'm convinced most EPs do. It took what I considered to be a miraculous encounter with the Most Holy Theotokos to help me get beyond my hang ups.
As to your experience all I can say is Glory to God, and masy He continue to draw you unto Himself via your prayers and those who have gone before.
God is wonderful in His saints!
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

And what, may I ask, was that miraculous encounter with the Uperagia Theotokos?

[choirfiend]

Panagia, Kathxoumenoc, not Uperagia;)

[Vasileios]

Well, just to contribute my usual greek tidbit:
Yperagia is just as good as Panagia. Both are used, although the "official" name is Panagia.

And to make things a bit more boring, Panagia literally means "all-saint", or "fully saint" or "complete saint" or "wholly saint" (I think u get the idea) denoting the fulness of her spiritual height.

Yperagia, means literally either Hyper saint (er, super saint!) denoting well, u get what it means, or, Above Saints, in the meaning that the Theotokos stands above all the saints and the angels, as the pinnacle of the human nature, outside the Divine-Human that was Christ.

Fascinating, I know. :)

[Eusebios]

And what, may I ask, was that miraculous encounter with the Uperagia Theotokos?
I prefer not to go into great detail other than to say that she provided succor in time of extreme need. My point in posting was merely to offer that I too had experienced doubts with regard to the efficacy of prayer to The Theotokos and the saints. It took an extreme event to convince me.
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

[ClementofRome]

Thank you Eusebios.

[Jacob4707]

Panagia, Kathxoumenoc, not Uperagia;)

I started writing Panagia, but then I looked at my Greek-English DAILY PRAYERS FOR ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS, and while there is Panagia Trias (All-Holy Trinity), the PRAYER TO THE ALL-HOLY THEOTOKOS is entitled: ... UPERAGIAN THEOTOKON.

Since Eusebios wrote "most holy Theotokos" I thought that UPERAGIA would be better than PANAGIA, as that's how my prayerbook writes it.