The Hip Hop Prayer Book

[Mysterium_Fidei]

The Hip Hop Prayer Book is now available via Church Publishing and a few other places, including Amazon. The Bishop of my diocese has endorsed the liturgies contained within the book and has written one of its forwards. The Hip Hop Mass is becoming extremely popular in my diocese lately.

This book doesn’t only contain the liturgy for the Eucharist. Morning and Evening prayer, along with the entire Psalter have been included. Apparently there are also other services. This book is called “A powerful evangelism tool, developed at Trinity Church of Morrisania in the birthplace of Hip Hop, the South Bronx, The Hip Hop Prayer Book offers a means to worship that will draw in the young and speak to those not generally spoken to by the Church.”

http://www.churchpublishing.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&ProductID=426


"If Jesus were alive today, he would have been a rapper."--The Rt. Rev. Catherine Roskam.
Psalm 23 as adapted by Ryan Kearse
The Lord is all that, I need for nothing.
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
and allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
the Hood of death,
I don't back down
for you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.
I fall back in the Lord's crib
for the rest of my life.Thoughts?

[gtsecc]

In ECUSA it is more important to be PC than to be Christian.

[PaladinValer]

The real idea of it is to draw those who feel disfranchized by religion into the church.

It has nothing to do with being PC. That's absolute and complete reactionary nonsense.

The true problem with it is that it is targeted at an audience that is largely anti-morals and probably isn't going to easily change. A Prayer Book will simply be taken and abused to suit their own devices (or simply burned or scorned at).

An interesting idea that has a good basis for being, but bad target audience. I would suggest targetting a different group that would be more receptive as a first "alternative."

[karen freeinchristman]

I would say, if your Bishop endorses it, you probably should not go against your Bishop! ;)

[PaladinValer]

Not necessarily, Karen.

Think about the Arian controversy. Should all the clergy and laity under Arius' juristiction still submit to his heretical notions?

Of course, that's a more extreme case and it isn't a complete equivocation; there is no heresy in question here. However, the point should be made: we are welcome to disagree with our bishops and question their choices. If we want, we are supposed to and encouraged to go through proper channels to challenge a bishop's decision. That's an important part of the laity and clergy of lesser rank. Again, think of the Arian controversy. St. Athanasius at the time was but a mere deacon.

Edit: To explain what I meant by "not necessarily."

[TomUK]

If it can turn the face of just one individual to Christ then it is completely worthwhile.

[gtsecc]

If it can turn the face of just one individual to Christ then it is completely worthwhile.
Of course.
But, I am not sure it really gets the gospel across.
If I still want to be a hip hopper - have I really died to self?
Can I really continue to have a lot of ho's, and hold to the gospel message?
Does Christ call me to radically change my life, or not?
I have spend an extentive time in ministry in the inner city, and can tell you the Hip hop message is that life is best lived when you fulfil your selfish desires, "getting yours."
This is 100% incompatible with the gospel.

[cenimo]

A while back I started a thread, "The church was so liberal that....The church was so conservative that...."

Some people here (totally without any sense of humor) jumped all over me for it....

At least mine was just in jest....unlike this Hip Hop Mass. This is taking "Seeker Sensitive" to the insanity level.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

I’ll express my thoughts in order to forward conversation. I am opposed to The Hip Hop Prayer Book and the Hip Hop Mass because of their radically secular connotations. They are incompatible with the nature of the Mass, which is the timeless representation of Christ’s passion. When the Mass is altered in such a way that it becomes indistinguishable from modern entertainment we have made a mistake, and framed Christ within a particular point of time, namely the present. Some would argue that the older liturgies also boxed Christ in an older time. I must disagree. Established traditions which are passed down through the generations are truly common prayer. They are the prayers of the past, the present, and the future. The Mass is an essential part of our Christian heritage, and should be preserved for tomorrow.

I’m sure some think this is merely harmless, though perhaps misguided, outreach. I would be inclined to agree if what was being forwarded was only a new youth ministry with prayer services. That is not what this is, however. This claims to be the Mass, which should only be celebrated according to Our Lord’s command to “do this in memory of me”. This Mass is not being celebrated in accordance with his command to remember him in the Blessed Sacrament, but rather to draw into the Church disenfranchised young people from a particular subculture. That could be seen as denying the Catholicity of our liturgies.

I do find this disturbing. It is merely one sign of a malignant tumor which has infected the Church.

[Aymn27]

The Hip Hop Prayer Book is now available via Church Publishing and a few other places, including Amazon. The Bishop of my diocese has endorsed the liturgies contained within the book and has written one of its forwards. The Hip Hop Mass is becoming extremely popular in my diocese lately.

This book doesn’t only contain the liturgy for the Eucharist. Morning and Evening prayer, along with the entire Psalter have been included. Apparently there are also other services. This book is called “A powerful evangelism tool, developed at Trinity Church of Morrisania in the birthplace of Hip Hop, the South Bronx, The Hip Hop Prayer Book offers a means to worship that will draw in the young and speak to those not generally spoken to by the Church.”

http://www.churchpublishing.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&ProductID=426


"If Jesus were alive today, he would have been a rapper."--The Rt. Rev. Catherine Roskam.
Psalm 23 as adapted by Ryan Kearse
The Lord is all that, I need for nothing.
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
and allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
the Hood of death,
I don't back down
for you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.
I fall back in the Lord's crib
for the rest of my life.Thoughts?

Translating the Bible/prayerbook etc into the current language and into a language the people understand is worthwhile -

Using slang words is another. If I were a "hip-hopper" I would be insulted by the shallowness of it all..

"He allows me to chill" come on..give me a break

[AngCath]

I've seen the Hip Hop Prayer book and think that since that is a type of English spoken in some places, that is how they should pray. If the congregation speaks spanish we use a spanish prayer book, why not "hip hop"?

[RadixLecti]

He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.



:sick: just............ :sick: can't .......... :sick: stop.......... :sick: ....... throwing up! :sick:

[gtsecc]

It is not merely a translation, which would be fine.
It is a change in the message.

[AngCath]

still seems better than them not praying at all

[RadixLecti]

It is not merely a translation, which would be fine.
It is a change in the message.

Oh, Come on home-slice. Don't be a playa-hata. I be fo shizle dat the hip hop prayer book be wack and hommie don't play that game. Y'all heard me, I say strait up dat the hip hop prayer book gotta be wack foo! I'm fo real dawg.

:cool:

[pjw]

Of course.
But, I am not sure it really gets the gospel across.
If I still want to be a hip hopper - have I really died to self?
Can I really continue to have a lot of ho's, and hold to the gospel message?
Does Christ call me to radically change my life, or not?
I have spend an extentive time in ministry in the inner city, and can tell you the Hip hop message is that life is best lived when you fulfil your selfish desires, "getting yours."
This is 100% incompatible with the gospel.
i don't agree with the idea of a hip-hop prayer-book, but i also don't think that hip-hop music is incompatible with Christianity. it is the culture usually associated with hip-hop that is incompatible with Christianity. i don't agree with hip-hop praise music, but i do think that hip-hop is a way for Christians to get out a message of hope to the world, protesting against the evils of the world.

[Naomi4Christ]

What is hip-hop?

[cenimo]

Another term for rap "music",
inner city slang set to sing-song...

[Tomoz]

Its pretty funny...I can't imagine a lot of G's being fooled. Still, if it reaches out to people, makes the first connection that can then be built upon, then its a good thing.

Word.

[karen freeinchristman]

Oh, Come on home-slice. Don't be a playa-hata. I be fo shizle dat the hip hop prayer book be wack and hommie don't play that game. Y'all heard me, I say strait up dat the hip hop prayer book gotta be wack foo! I'm fo real dawg.

:cool:

^_^

[higgs2]

In ECUSA it is more important to be PC than to be Christian.
I'm sure you can rephrase this so that it represents your opinion, and is not quite so insulting.

[Colabomb]

The Hip Hop Prayer Book is now available via Church Publishing and a few other places, including Amazon. The Bishop of my diocese has endorsed the liturgies contained within the book and has written one of its forwards. The Hip Hop Mass is becoming extremely popular in my diocese lately.

This book doesn’t only contain the liturgy for the Eucharist. Morning and Evening prayer, along with the entire Psalter have been included. Apparently there are also other services. This book is called “A powerful evangelism tool, developed at Trinity Church of Morrisania in the birthplace of Hip Hop, the South Bronx, The Hip Hop Prayer Book offers a means to worship that will draw in the young and speak to those not generally spoken to by the Church.”

http://www.churchpublishing.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&ProductID=426


"If Jesus were alive today, he would have been a rapper."--The Rt. Rev. Catherine Roskam.
Psalm 23 as adapted by Ryan Kearse
The Lord is all that, I need for nothing.
He allows me to chill.
He keeps me from being heated
and allows me to breathe easy.
He guides my life so that
I can represent and give
shouts out in his Name.
And even though I walk through
the Hood of death,
I don't back down
for you have my back.
The fact that you have me covered
allows me to chill.
He provides me with back-up
in front of my player-haters
and I know that I am a baller
and life will be phat.
I fall back in the Lord's crib
for the rest of my life.Thoughts?

The language of Hip Hop is spontaneous, not formal enough to be used in a liturgy. It is constantly changing.

True Hip Hoppers would mock it.

In ten years it will be even cornier than it is now.

(I also find it funny when all the "Cool" parents of the 90's told their children to take a "Chill pill". Were they really so naieve to not realize they were telling their children to pop a downer?)

[karen freeinchristman]

True Hip Hoppers would mock it.

In ten years it will be even cornier than it is now.


This is probably true.

[gtsecc]

I'm sure you can rephrase this so that it represents your opinion, and is not quite so insulting.
Oh, I think it is perfectly obvious that it is true.
Who do you think has an easier time gettign to holy Orders?
Straight Catholic males, or liberal lesbian females?
Maybe ECUSA is on to something, but it is a new direction for the church.

[karen freeinchristman]

Who do you think has an easier time gettign to holy Orders?
Straight Catholic males, or liberal lesbian females?

How can you justify this statement? If you haven't got any proof of this, I think it should have been left as unstated opinion.

[gtsecc]

How can you justify this statement? If you haven't got any proof of this, I think it should have been left as unstated opinion.
open your eyes

Let me give you an example:

+Bennison excommunicated Fr. Moyer for being a straight male catholic.

The only example we have of someone being excomunicated is that of a revisionist liberal, excommunicating someone for teaching what the church has taught for 2,000 years.

[karen freeinchristman]

open your eyes

Please try not to be patronising.


Let me give you an example:

+Bennison excommunicated Fr. Moyer for being a straight male catholic.
I have no idea who you are talking about, and I do not see any kind of backup to your statements. Do you have a source? Why should I believe it when you give this reason?

[gtsecc]

Please try not to be patronising.


I have no idea who you are talking about, and I do not see any kind of backup to your statements. Do you have a source? Why should I believe it when you give this reason?
I can't imagine that you would really think I made this up.
If you have the slightest doubt, you could google the words "Bennison" "excommunicated" "Moyer"

[karen freeinchristman]

I can't imagine that you would really think I made this up.
If you have the slightest doubt, you could google the words "Bennison" "excommunicated" "Moyer"
You're the one making the statement. You should google it and post a link.

[gtsecc]

http://www.forwardinfaith.com/news/moyer-bennison/moyer-index.html

http://www.forwardinfaith.com/news/moyer-bennison/02-09-05-1-bennison.html

Bishop Charles E. Bennison


Deposes

Fr David L Moyer



Philadelphia, PA | 5 September 2002


...
In a separate letter to Fr Moyer, Bennison writes, "It grieves me deeply that you have not responded to my letters of yesterday and August 7th, or to the statement in the Standing Committee's Report of February 26, 2002 and that a renunciation grounded in action can be retracted by appropriate action."
As provided in Section 2 of Canon 10, if a Priest "does not make retraction or denial as provided above, then it shall be the duty of the Bishop to pronounce sentence as provided therein. In accordance with my duty, and in the light of your defiance of the Discipline of the Church, I have pronounced a Sentence of Deposition upon you, a copy of which I enclose."
"I want to make certain that you are aware of, and give prayerful consideration to the provisions of Canon 13 of Title IV, regarding the Remission of Sentence, with the hope that if you truly wish to remain a Priest in the Episcopal Church you will follow the process and procedures enumerated there. If you do, I would be glad to welcome you back."

[karen freeinchristman]

The Bishop of Pennsylvania, Charles E. Bennison, today deposed Fr. David L. Moyer rector of Church of the Good Shepherd, Rosemont, saying that Moyer had "abandoned the Communion of the Church by openly renouncing the Discipline of the Church". I don't see anything in this link to say he was deposed because he is a "straight male catholic".

[karen freeinchristman]

The first link has way too many sections in it for me to find any evidence in it in any kind of timely fashion. :sorry:

[ContraMundum]

Does this mean that there are new formats for preaching? Do you have to rap and wave your hands and point with every syllable too?

Do you have to have new sign language too? Do you have to beat your chest twice and tilt your head back and nod when you say "mea culpa"?

Do bishops have to wear tilted baseball caps instead of traditional mitres?

Are decorative vestments going to be referred to as "bling" now?

Are the responses during the Psalms now just "yo!" ?

Did Jesus "bust a cap" in death's backside instead of just conquering it?

How do they refer to women in the Bible? With the same language as in the 'hood?

Oh well, all cynicism aside.....good luck to them. Pray for God's blessing on the work in the 'hood.

[higgs2]

I don't see anything in this link to say he was deposed because he is a "straight male catholic".

YOu're right. Gtsecc cannot prove his claims. THere where many reasons for the deposition (which is not ex-communication). But being a straight male was not one of them. You can tell by the FIF links he chooses to "prove" his case. More later.

[TomUK]

Does this mean that there are new formats for preaching? Do you have to rap and wave your hands and point with every syllable too?

Do you have to have new sign language too? Do you have to beat your chest twice and tilt your head back and nod when you say "mea culpa"?

Do bishops have to wear tilted baseball caps instead of traditional mitres?

Are decorative vestments going to be referred to as "bling" now?

Are the responses during the Psalms now just "yo!" ?

Did Jesus "bust a cap" in death's backside instead of just conquering it?

How do they refer to women in the Bible? With the same language as in the 'hood?

Oh well, all cynicism aside.....good luck to them. Pray for God's blessing on the work in the 'hood.

I've just gone on google images to try and find a suitable 'laughing' picture to respond to you. Unfortunately i was naive enough to write 'titter'. :doh:

[gtsecc]

He was deposed for being Catholic.
The point is that the conservative in ECUSA get in trouble for teachign what has been taught for 2,000 years, while the liberals get free reign.
My point is that ECUSA does things which make it seem like being PC is more important than being Catholic.

[higgs2]

He was deposed for being Catholic.
The point is that the conservative in ECUSA get in trouble for teachign what has been taught for 2,000 years, while the liberals get free reign.
My point is that ECUSA does things which make it seem like being PC is more important than being Catholic.
He was deposed for disobeying his bishop. The whole situation was outrageous.

[gtsecc]

He was deposed for disobeying his bishop. The whole situation was outrageous.

Orthodoxy is persecuted in ECUSA.
That is outrageous.

If you have any doubt as to who was in the wrong:
+Moyer is now a Bishop
And the ABC, and many other Bishops supported him during his conflict with Bennison.

[gtsecc]

The first link has way too many sections in it for me to find any evidence in it in any kind of timely fashion. :sorry:
Everyone knows what happened.
It is public knowledge.
You can find tons on it from the net.
I can't make you read it.
I think you are burrying your head in the sand. :sorry:

[higgs2]

Orthodoxy is persecuted in ECUSA.
That is outrageous.

If you have any doubt as to who was in the wrong:
+Moyer is now a Bishop
And the ABC, and many other Bishops supported him during his conflict with Bennison.
Not ordained by proper channels. The situation is still outrageous. They are attempting a coup. You are not telling the whole story. YOur'e right about the public knowledge part though.

[gtsecc]

Not ordained by proper channels. The situation is still outrageous. They are attempting a coup. You are not telling the whole story. YOur'e right about the public knowledge part though.

The ABC recognises him as a validly ordained Bishop in the AC.

+Moyer's theology is backed by 2,000 years of Christianity.

+Bennisen can't back up his beliefs by anything understandable as Christianity.

[higgs2]

The ABC recognises him as a validly ordained Bishop in the AC.

+Moyer's theology is backed by 2,000 years of Christianity.

+Bennisen can't back up his beliefs by anything understandable as Christianity.
You started this tangent by saying he was deposed because he is a heterosexual catholic. You have not proven that statement and in my opinion you can't. If you want to start another thread about this issue go ahead, but I won't derail things here any longer.

[Torah613]

If it can turn the face of just one individual to Christ then it is completely worthwhile.

100% agree. Christianity is afterall supposed to be designed to reach out to those on the outside. That is where our focus should be.

And yes I plan on buying it once I get some funds scraped together.

Joe Zollars

[Mysterium_Fidei]

100% agree. Christianity is afterall supposed to be designed to reach out to those on the outside. That is where our focus should be.

And yes I plan on buying it once I get some funds scraped together.

Joe Zollars

I hardly think this will have any real outreach benefits. It will just give those Christians in the 'Hip Hop' culture something fun to do.

[Naomi4Christ]

I hardly think this will have any real outreach benefits. It will just give those Christians in the 'Hip Hop' culture something fun to do.

What about http://www.freshexpressions.org.uk ?

Serious outreach benefits, honest!

[higgs2]

I hardly think this will have any real outreach benefits. It will just give those Christians in the 'Hip Hop' culture something fun to do.
Why do you think that?

[gtsecc]

Higgs,
I have spent a heck of a lot of time ministering to inner city folks. If everyone who was interested in the Hip Hop prayer book, would actually physcially go there, and love the peopel there that would make a difference. there are tons of well intentioned folks who will tlak alday about change and helping out, but at the end of the day there are very few who actually leave their upper middle class Christian world and go and love people in the inner city - touch them, hug them, cry with them, and become a part of their lives.

[Naomi4Christ]

Why in God's holy name would anyone want to wrap a religious liturgy around this? (I am not debating, just asking.)

To rescue those who do not know the Lord, presumably... They are still precious to him.

[gtsecc]

Hip hop culture is not isolated to its musical style; it involves active celebration of the "gangsta" lifestyle, an open denial of personal responsibility, the mistreatment of women and children, crime, worship of "bling bling" (a slang term which encompasses money, jewelry, cars and other material possessions), and casual and socially destructive sexual encounters. Why in God's holy name would anyone want to wrap a religious liturgy around this? (I am not debating, just asking.)
Yep. :thumbsup: You get it.

[SeenAndUnseen]

To rescue those who do not know the Lord, presumably... They are still precious to him.

Here in the states where this is an epidemic, none of the real "hip-hopsters" are attending these block parties because they are far too busy hippin and hoppin to be bothered by Christianity with a beat. It is more an insult to their intelligence than anything.

One valid concern here is that the good children who are attending hip-hop masses, who perhaps have not had an encounter with hip-hop culture before, will now go exploring real hip-hop to see what it's all about.

[RadixLecti]

Hip hop culture is not isolated to its musical style; it involves active celebration of the "gangsta" lifestyle, an open denial of personal responsibility, the mistreatment of women and children, crime, worship of "bling bling" (a slang term which encompasses money, jewelry, cars and other material possessions), and casual and socially destructive sexual encounters. Why in God's holy name would anyone want to wrap a religious liturgy around this? (I am not debating, just asking.)

Yep. :thumbsup: You get it.

I actually agree with you guys. I went to high school in a big inner city public school. I could have gone somewhere else, but my dad thought it would be a good life-experiance for me. I think SeenandUnseen hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what the "hip hop" culture is all about. I can't think of any good qualities about hip hop culture. If you showed most people from that culture a hip hop prayer book, first of all they would say "what's a prayer book" and after you explained what it was they would be rolling on the floor laughing at the idea of praying in hip hop slang.

word to yo motha

[RadixLecti]

One valid concern here is that the good children who are attending hip-hop masses, who perhaps have not had an encounter with hip-hop culture before, will now go exploring real hip-hop to see what it's all about.

Exactly. We don't need that in a country that had 16,912 murders and 92,837 rapes last year alone.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060612/D8I6TAE81.html

[higgs2]

Higgs,
I have spent a heck of a lot of time ministering to inner city folks. If everyone who was interested in the Hip Hop prayer book, would actually physcially go there, and love the peopel there that would make a difference. there are tons of well intentioned folks who will tlak alday about change and helping out, but at the end of the day there are very few who actually leave their upper middle class Christian world and go and love people in the inner city - touch them, hug them, cry with them, and become a part of their lives.
I can't argue with that.

[Naomi4Christ]

Here in the states where this is an epidemic, none of the real "hip-hopsters" are attending these block parties because they are far too busy hippin and hoppin to be bothered by Christianity with a beat. It is more an insult to their intelligence than anything.

Then we need to try even harder to reach them. As in the parable of The Prodigal Son, it is the father who runs to meet his son when he was still far off. Let's keep our eyes on the teaching of Christ - that is our standard and the only standard that matters. We are the hands and feet of Jesus - let's not forget that.

One valid concern here is that the good children who are attending hip-hop masses, who perhaps have not had an encounter with hip-hop culture before, will now go exploring real hip-hop to see what it's all about.

Depends on what you mean by 'good'. We are all sinners and have all fallen short of the glory of God.

[Naomi4Christ]

I actually agree with you guys. I went to high school in a big inner city public school. I could have gone somewhere else, but my dad thought it would be a good life-experiance for me. I think SeenandUnseen hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what the "hip hop" culture is all about. I can't think of any good qualities about hip hop culture. If you showed most people from that culture a hip hop prayer book, first of all they would say "what's a prayer book" and after you explained what it was they would be rolling on the floor laughing at the idea of praying in hip hop slang.

word to yo motha

So we write them off, then? :scratch:

[higgs2]

Then we need to try even harder to reach them. As in the parable of The Prodigal Son, it is the father who runs to meet his son when he was still far off. Let's keep our eyes on the teaching of Christ - that is our standard and the only standard that matters. We are the hands and feet of Jesus - let's not forget that.



Depends on what you mean by 'good'. We are all sinners and have all fallen short of the glory of God.
I can't argue with this.

[RadixLecti]

So we write them off, then? :scratch:

Did think that's what I was saying? Naomi, I really value sharing the gospel with people in ways that they can understand it. In fact I forwarded the link you posted for "Fresh expressions" to several people from my church just a few hours ago. The inner city culture can be reached in other ways much more effectively. If I start hearing people say "because of the hip hop prayer book, I finally realised that Jesus died for me and now I love God" then I will change my attitude towards this.

I also wonder if hip hop means something a little different in the UK than it does in the US. If you feel that the Hip Hop prayer book would be beneficial in your community, then I trust your judgement since you know your community better than I do. However, I think in my community that this would not be a positive thing. I am on board with the U2 mass, I'm a little uneasy with the Goth mass but I can handle it if it works. To me this is different.

[karen freeinchristman]

I also wonder if hip hop means something a little different in the UK than it does in the US. If you feel that the Hip Hop prayer book would be beneficial in your community, then I trust your judgement since you know your community better than I do. However, I think in my community that this would not be a positive thing. I am on board with the U2 mass, I'm a little uneasy with the Goth mass but I can handle it if it works. To me this is different.

You might have a point here.

[Naomi4Christ]

I don't know about this specific Hip Hop Prayerbook, but I think the way that Fresh Expressions works is that you meet people where they are, and then discipleship works through them as they grow in faith.

This means that it is OK for those you are seeking not to like specific music, specific liturgy, a specific way of dressing. They dress the way they like, etc. It's also OK to have "a past", and not appear "perfect". It makes turning away from evil a lot easier if everyone is truthful about being a sinner.

[Simon_Templar]

Higgs,
I have spent a heck of a lot of time ministering to inner city folks. If everyone who was interested in the Hip Hop prayer book, would actually physcially go there, and love the peopel there that would make a difference. there are tons of well intentioned folks who will tlak alday about change and helping out, but at the end of the day there are very few who actually leave their upper middle class Christian world and go and love people in the inner city - touch them, hug them, cry with them, and become a part of their lives.

I tried to rep this, but sadly it wouldn't let me :) (the whole spreading around thing).

There is that thing Paul said about becoming a greek to evangelize greeks, or a jew to evangelize jews etc...
but I think the issue he was addressing there is offense.. going out of his way to make sure that his habits of life were not offensive to the people he was trying to witness to.

I really believe that one of the most powerful things about the faith is that we (can) offer something different. Something that isn't every day.
In my former church, everything about church followed the mold of our every day lives.. nothing about church was different. We had no sense of sacredness, or holiness about church.. and I got totally sick of it. It got to the point that I longed for something that was not every day. Something that was set apart.

[ContraMundum]

Exactly Simon.

True Christianity is far more radical than any sub-culture.