Loving Hearts Lite, practice

[junegillam]

As a way to raise our quality of communication/posting here in CF, a few of us came up with the following process for a start:

Post after reflecting on these three posting guidelines:

1--Take time to become settled in God's presence.

2--Listen to others with your entire self (senses, feelings. intuition, imagination, and rational faculties).

3--Speak for yourself only, expressing your own thoughts and feelings, referring to your own experiences. Avoid being hypothetical. Steer away from broad generalizations.

(The above were offered by Finella as part of a longer list of guidelines for the Loving Hearts method of in-person communications, that had a bit of Quaker influence.)

Our topic to practice these three guidelines is

"The effect of various types of footwear on persons serving at the altar"

We wanted to try what we thought would be a light topic for our first practice of this sort of communication.

Please follow the three guidelines in postings here.

Thank you,
June Gillam

[karen freeinchristman]

I think that sometimes the footwear worn by a server can be distracting to the service. For example, one time there was a teenage boy wearing tennis shoes with big floppy laces, and when he walked, the laces flopped around. I felt a bit distracted by that, but I felt guilty about judging it because I was just grateful that he was there serving. My judgement focusses mainly on the parents, as I feel parents should guide their children as to what constitutes appropriate footwear while serving.
:sorry:

[Finella]

(btw, the communication method is actually called Listening Hearts, but we can call it Loving Hearts if we want, we'll make it our own!)

Okay. My take on the footwear issue.

When I was growing up, my dad always harumphed whenever he saw kids serving at the altar wearing sneakers. He didn't feel it was dignified. I tended to agree with him at the time, because hey, he was my dad, but also because I had been raised Episcopalian and thus had an inborn sense of the need for dignity at the altar. Sneakers under a cassock just didn't seem to fit.

I wish I could recall a particular experience, but mostly I remember my work in a psychiatric hospital where I found that people wearing disheveled clothing and having unkempt hair could be quite dignified, or even quite holy, in a particular moment. In those situations it actually was the juxtaposition of the undignified appearance and the dignified internal world that made those people so special.

So in regard to serving at the altar, I guess I would look at the person wearing the shoes and take in the circumstances. Does the person not really care? Did he just rush in as soon as he could, having worked all night at a convenience store because he loves to serve at the altar and didn't have time to go home to change? Is the atmosphere of the service formal or casual? I don't know if I have as quick a reaction to informal footwear at the altar as I did with a kid anymore, because now I wonder more about the person wearing those shoes.

As for kids.... I agree, Karen, that parents should guide, but I feel there's a point when parents also need to let kids take responsibility for how they approach this kind of thing. I don't know when that would be exactly (12? 10?) since I don't have kids yet. :)

[Fleurette]

I'll be honest: I don't know what serving at the altar is. To be perfectly honest, neither of my churches have "altars" as such (well, one does, but we don't call it that - got a long lecture from my vicar at one point on why I shouldn't, it seems to be a pet peeve of his).

Apologies - if someone can explain, then I'll try to contribute.

[No Swansong]

(btw, the communication method is actually called Listening Hearts, but we can call it Loving Hearts if we want, we'll make it our own!)

Okay. My take on the footwear issue.

When I was growing up, my dad always harumphed whenever he saw kids serving at the altar wearing sneakers. He didn't feel it was dignified. I tended to agree with him at the time, because hey, he was my dad, but also because I had been raised Episcopalian and thus had an inborn sense of the need for dignity at the altar. Sneakers under a cassock just didn't seem to fit.

I wish I could recall a particular experience, but mostly I remember my work in a psychiatric hospital where I found that people wearing disheveled clothing and having unkempt hair could be quite dignified, or even quite holy, in a particular moment. In those situations it actually was the juxtaposition of the undignified appearance and the dignified internal world that made those people so special.

So in regard to serving at the altar, I guess I would look at the person wearing the shoes and take in the circumstances. Does the person not really care? Did he just rush in as soon as he could, having worked all night at a convenience store because he loves to serve at the altar and didn't have time to go home to change? Is the atmosphere of the service formal or casual? I don't know if I have as quick a reaction to informal footwear at the altar as I did with a kid anymore, because now I wonder more about the person wearing those shoes.

As for kids.... I agree, Karen, that parents should guide, but I feel there's a point when parents also need to let kids take responsibility for how they approach this kind of thing. I don't know when that would be exactly (12? 10?) since I don't have kids yet. :)

I guess this is something that never really made much difference to me but I can understand how some would consider it a comment about the server's sincerity. I am delighted to see youngsters (sometimes not youngsters) serving at the altar. I can also understand how certain footwear can be distracting.

[Naomi4Christ]

I'll be honest: I don't know what serving at the altar is. To be perfectly honest, neither of my churches have "altars" as such (well, one does, but we don't call it that - got a long lecture from my vicar at one point on why I shouldn't, it seems to be a pet peeve of his).

Apologies - if someone can explain, then I'll try to contribute.

Evo churches don't usually have altar servers. They are children who do a few jobs for the vicar. In non-complicated worship, there is no need.

Our verger is the closest thing to an altar server - but he is about 80! During our more wrinkly service, he leads the choir in their procession.

We don't use our altar either (we have an old one but it is covered up - you wouldn't know it was there - but the heritage people wouldn't let us take it out). We have a table.

[Fleurette]

Evo churches don't usually have altar servers. They are children who do a few jobs for the vicar. In non-complicated worship, there is no need.

Our verger is the closest thing to an altar server - but he is about 80! During our more wrinkly service, he leads the choir in their procession.

We don't use our altar either (we have an old one but it is covered up - you wouldn't know it was there - but the heritage people wouldn't let us take it out). We have a table.

Yes that's what my other church has. No steps up to it either (if anything, we have steps down, since the table's in the middle) - the place was only built in the 70s, so they've no historical baggage.

This is waaaaaaaaay off topic, I'll shut up now and let you all get on with it....

[karen freeinchristman]

Gentle reminder:

The purpose of this thread is to practice the communication method described in the OP, not to discuss whether or not we should have altars or tables in our churches. Thanks.

[junegillam]

Thanks for the Gentle Reminder, Karen.

The topic of footwear at the altar keeps brining up for me the Maundy Thursday footwashing ritual, which is high on my list of precious actions by Jesus, to wash others' feet. At the altar, the sacred ness of the person serving the Lord seems so clear to me, and though years ago, I remember being surprised to see tennies and sandles on altar servers, plus all sorts of footwear on priests and others at the altar (this was actually at St. Ignatius RC church before I converted to ECUSA), now days I simply enjoy the fact that people are present in their various ministries, however shod.

When my husband and I were in catechism class in the early spring, we were taken on a tour "backstage," so to speak, to the rooms of robes, etc., that the clergy and servers would don. I recall learning for the first time that the altar servers, young people in our church, considered their work a ministry.

That settled it for sure. In their hearts they are serving the Lord, so for me, what they wear on their feet to carry them forward in their ministry is immaterial.

peace be with you.

jg

[pmcleanj]

As Naomi has mentioned so many times, "ministry" (which is a synonym for "serving") is not exclusive to clergy and acolytes; and doesn't happen only at the liturgy. Of course, it doesn't stop at the liturgy, either. That means that in an egalitarian evangelical church, on communion Sundays, everyone can be seen to be "serving at the altar". Some congregations set aside the persons who play specific roles in the liturgy, by having those persons vest in specific clothes. Some congregations specifically emphasize the mutuality of our ministry roles, and combat the temptation to clericalism, by not having anyone vest.

If we were to allow this conversation to imply that vesting is the norm, we might be heard as negating the experience of other Anglicans. I would like to invite Naomi and PrincessAna to participate in this discussion to bring the perspective of Anglicans who don't vest (and as a nod to your wicked sense of humour, Naomi, I don't mean that they're running around in smallclothes!!! -- they're 'vested' in ordinary streetclothes, of course!;) )

We all need to decide how to "vest" when we go to worship. Some of the teens at church wear belly-shirts, hipster jeans and bare feet. They saunter up to the altar with relaxed confidence as though it has never crossed their mind that God could find them or their apparel unacceptable; like a child freshly stained from playing mudpies reaching out his arms arms to receive a hug from his spotlessly groomed mother. And so they should.

My father goes to church in a three-piece custom-tailored woolen suit, with turn-back cuffs closed by old-fashioned gold cufflinks. He spares no effort on his grooming because, he says, God deserves the very best of everything that he can do in God's honour. And he is right, too.

It is the same with vesting. We must never put ourselves in the place of passing judgement on someone because of her pink runners. If the subject of appropriateness of dress for liturgical ministry has never crossed our minds, we should not be discommoded by the suggestion that other people do worry about such things. But, if we *are* considering the details of vesting, then we should pay attention to detail.

Footwear is one of those details. If we provide servers with albs or cassocks, but don't mention footwear and hair grooming, we may be implying that details don't matter, or that half-measures are 'good enough' for God. I like my father's message that "God deserves your best". I think there is value in embracing that message for myself, and on passing it on to others.

And, we can find symbolism in those small details. God said to Moses, "take off your shoes, for you are standing on holy ground". God obviously understood that small details like footwear can matter.

And, God also perhaps gave us in those words an indication of just what footwear we should take as the norm when serving at worship.

[Naomi4Christ]

Many years ago, I used to dress for church. My weekday dress was the typical SAHM uniform of jeans and a top - never trainers though, ugh. Although I felt that I was working for the Lord every day of the week, I did set Sunday aside as something special.

When I moved to the US and worshipped in an ECUSA church, I suddenly switched to wearing jeans on a Sunday (but still with proper shoes). I wanted to emphasise the ordinariness of serving the Lord and distance myself from those majority 'Christian' who went to church for show. Not great motives, but I am being honest here.

Now I pretty much wear what I wear any other day of the week - smart casual, which does mean wearing proper shoes (or sandals in this weather).

My children, who do not serve the altar, look positively feral. :)

[junegillam]

wow, I appreciate your popping open the topic, pmcleanj. We might wish to have a new thread to embrace the total "look" of the person inside worship services? The overall "vesting" process individuals go through before church, and before other special events to connect with God and Christ would be fascinaing to explore. I am not sure I am very conscious about my own "vesting" process, so this is useful in that regard, too. Love your line from God to Moses about taking off the shoes for holy ground; seems connected to the Maundy Thursday footwashing ritual, for me.

pmcleanj's father's "God deserves your best" seems quite pregnant--"best" being a conscious array of the outer and inner selves, in my understanding. Yet the unconscious reaching up of the muddy child to the tidy mum seems the best, too, though unconsious.

Maybe it is a matter of awareness, conscious intention from each individual? It being the type of footware at the alter, to bring myself back to the original thread prompt. As pmcleanj wrote "We all need to decide how to "vest" when we go to worship." It is likely the decision process that is key, I am beginning to feel. Naomi4Christ notes quite a conscious process, in my view.



jg

[karen freeinchristman]

I am thinking that it could be good for us to open the topic up to include the overall 'vesting' that we do for church services. I am thinking this because I feel it might make room for more interesting communication than limiting it to footwear by altar servers. I do know that I think about what I wear to a much greater extent when I'm doing something 'up front', as in chalice assisting or reading Scripture, than I do when I'm not up front. And I catch myself thinking, "how ridiculous that you are getting so worked up about what you are wearing, Karen; Scripture even tells us not to worry about what we are wearing!" I worry sometimes that the older people in the congregation will think I'm not dressed appropriately if I don't make a greater effort than I normally would. Part of me thinks that I don't want to make those people feel uncomfortable by how I'm dressed, and the other part of me wants to dress more smartly for God. And then another part of me thinks that God doesn't care what we are wearing!

[higgs2]

Okay, overall "vesting" in church. I don't have a job in which I formally vest, although our acolytes and servers do vest in our church as does our priest. But I have always, from my childhood I guess, dressed up at least a little for church. I Insist that my children do also, although I have gotten more relaxed about it. To me, church is a special day and is set aside from our normal week, and dressing differently emphasizes the specialness. I also must admit that it is one of the few occasions to dress up, so we enjoy it when we can. My husband will put on nice slacks and a nice shirt, but no tie.

Shoes? Well in our household we have a word for shoes that you where to church - church shoes. We get the kids a pair each year (of course the girls have several...)

Sometimes we will wear something more casual, just because of timing, and that's alright. But dressing for church is actually kind of fun for all of us and we enjoy it.

Some people at our church wear jeans, some dress to the hilt with high heels and hats and jackets and ties :) I would not presume to assume their motives by their dress, I'm just glad they're there.

And the shoes thing, funny story. When we got married I was furious with my husband because he refused to wear the shiny black dress shoes that come with the tux rental. He wore some old, slightly worn but somfortable dress shoes of his own. The really funny thing was after my big deal about shoes, the minister who married us wore brown, casual topsiders, pretty scuffy and no socks :D

[Fleurette]

Personally, I don't dress up for church - I don't wear very revealing stuff even if it's very hot, but that's more for practical considerations - if kneeling down at the communion rail, or climbing over the back of the pew in order to get in/out without seriously inconvinencing a large number of people, things could get embarrassing if you turned up in a short skirt/revealing top. Before I became a Christian, I had a notion church was something that people dressed up for, but these days I feel overdressed in a smart jumper. We do have people who turn up in suits (mainly older people), and I think that's just as valid as the "just as I am" approach. My personal opinion is that God has to manage just fine with what I wear the other six days of the week, so I stick to the same standard on a Sunday as I would Mon-Sat.

It did give me slight food for thought when I started university - my church at home is fairly informal, but has a number of more traditional elderly members, so although the vicar doesn't wear robes, he does wear smart clothes and nice black shoes. My church at university is much more informal (hence scrambling over pews being acceptable), and has a much younger average age (which has little to do with the students, and slightly more to do with the fact that the local people on the estate seem to breed like rabbits - I've seen the figures from their last census, and was ammused to find that the number of kids roughly equalled the number of adults :D). I was initially quite surprised to find the vicar wearing a leather jacket and jeans, then I realised that on a deprived council estate, this is probably a good thing - dressing like his parishoners seems to make him more approachable - and that, in the end, it doesn't really matter. He does dress up for our communion services though - something that doesn't happen at my home church, and I feel that makes them more special - the whole service is centered around communion, prayer, and listening to God - whereas at home, it just feels like a normal service with communion tacked into the middle.

[junegillam]

cool to open ourselves up to "vesting for church" yes.

It is a fascinating topic, full of innerness and outerness, what we think, what we think others think, what we think god thinks, etc.

As a child, I had to dress up for church, it was a special Sunday sort of clothing. Especially important were the black patent leather shoes we wore. After church we went home and took off all those special clothes and had to clean our shoes wiht Vaseline and wipe them off to keep them soft and shiney (even though they did not get dirty!).

In some ways, though, this being raised dressing up for church was harmful in that I think if we were more casual in those days, I might (might) have gotten my own children to church more since it would not have involved the hubub of getting dressed up on Sunday morning.

I appreaciate the freedom it seems most/many folks feel now to go casually dressed to church.

The question of how God views our vesting seems useful to meditate on, for me.

jg