Lcms Confession and Absolution

[NordicLutheran]

Private confession and absolution. Does anyone confess here with their pastor? It seems akward but if I had something huge like if I murdered someone I would go to my pastor first. I haven't murdered. Don't look at me like that.:eek:

[LutherNut]

Private confession and absolution. Does anyone confess here with their pastor? It seems akward but if I had something huge like if I murdered someone I would go to my pastor first. I haven't murdered. Don't look at me like that.:eek:

I'll bet you have.:eek:

Look at Matthew 5:21-22. Jesus tells us that even name calling is a violation of the 5th Commandment.;)

I've "murdered" a few times in my life, but I am repentant and forgiven by the Blood of the Lamb!:amen:

[NordicLutheran]

I confess my sins every chance I get to God. But I was wondering if anyone ever goes to there Pastor for confession. Sort of like the RCC without the cool booth window sliding dealy, and are lutheran pastors under the same seal of confession so they cannot tell anyone what you confess to them?

[ByzantineDixie]

I confess my sins every chance I get to God. But I was wondering if anyone ever goes to there Pastor for confession. Sort of like the RCC without the cool booth window sliding dealy, and are lutheran pastors under the same seal of confession so they cannot tell anyone what you confess to them?

Before I left the Lutheran church I did ask for private confession and absolution with my pastor (LCMS). I tried to go about every 2 - 3 months...but for sure during Lent and Advent.

He used the service out of the Lutheran Worship Hymnal. At first we had confession in his office but later I asked if we could have it in the Sanctuary where I could kneel at the communion rail while I confessed. I liked that much better.

Yes...Lutheran pastors are never to reveal what has been confessed to them.

[NordicLutheran]

Not to be rude but why did you convert to the EO ByzantineDixie?

[ByzantineDixie]

Not to be rude but why did you convert to the EO ByzantineDixie?

Its not rude at all to ask. I am a guest on your Lutheran boards so I need to be prepared to talk about this when asked.

I will point you to my original post (http://www.christianforums.com/t2152574-its-time.html)on the matter and to my blog article (http://byzantinedixie.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_byzantinedixie_archive.html) on the subject.

Do not hesitate to comment on anything I have written...here or elsewhere. It is only fair that you have a say after I did. :)

[NordicLutheran]

Ack so you dropped Sola Scriptura? Do you pray to any saints or mary? It just seems it would be difficult when Jesus says he's the only mediator. And I understand the interecession of the saints and Mary. But who Mary or the Saints that role? Important enough to give our prayers to God. Personally I think that prayers that are not addressed to the whole trinity or one person of the trinity they are not heard.

[ByzantineDixie]

Ack so you dropped Sola Scriptura?

Well...in the sense of "only if it is in Scripture"...yes, but I ran from that innovation long before I became Orthodox.

However...in the understanding of sola scriptura as "only if it conflicts with Scripture" while still receiving the teachings of the Church...I have not dropped that. Nothing in Orthodoxy conflicts with Scripture.

Do you pray to any saints or mary?

In the sense that "pray to" means "to ask"...yes, I pray to the Saints to ask for their intercessory prayers. That's what the Saints do...they pray for us.

It just seems it would be difficult when Jesus says he's the only mediator. And I understand the interecession of the saints and Mary. But who Mary or the Saints that role? Important enough to give our prayers to God.

Well, do you ask friends and family to pray for you? Even St. Paul asked other's to pray for him. Intercessory prayer is perfectly biblical and if a friend or family member prays for you it in no way reduces Christ's role as mediator,right?

The only difference between the family member or friend you ask to pray for you and the Saints in heaven praying for you is that the Saints have departed from this earth. If asking a friend to pray for you does not violate Christ's role as mediator, neither does asking a Saint. So the issue is reduced to "if the Saint's can hear our prayers".

The Orthodox believe that all the Saints are in communion, are united with Christ. So they are not dead but alive in Christ and are able to intercede for us. So too with the living saints...in communion/united with Christ and able to intercede for us. I know the Lutheran concern was "there is no Scriptural proof"--so the best that could be said is "we don't know" if praying to the saints helps. But there is a theological proof based on the Scriptures and it lies in shared communion we have in Christ. The saints can hear our requests for their prayers because of that union.

Personally I think that prayers that are not addressed to the whole trinity or one person of the trinity they are not heard.

Well, you are certainly free to think that. For me, I don't trust individuals to think for me any more...I'll go with what the Church has taught through the ages.

I thank you very much for your sincere questions. If my replies have offended or have not been written to suggest that I appreciate the opportunity to present what I believe and why then please forgive me. :)

[LutherNut]

Well...in the sense of "only if it is in Scripture"...yes, but I ran from that innovation long before I became Orthodox.

However...in the understanding of sola scriptura as "only if it conflicts with Scripture" while still receiving the teachings of the Church...I have not dropped that. Nothing in Orthodoxy conflicts with Scripture.

Actually, there are a number of things in "Orthodoxy" that conflict with Scripture. One is the idea of theosis, that one becomes God. The other is praying to someone other than God. In Scripture, that's called idolatry.




In the sense that "pray to" means "to ask"...yes, I pray to the Saints to ask for their intercessory prayers. That's what the Saints do...they pray for us.

Well, do you ask friends and family to pray for you? Even St. Paul asked other's to pray for him. Intercessory prayer is perfectly biblical and if a friend or family member prays for you it in no way reduces Christ's role as mediator,right?

The only difference between the family member or friend you ask to pray for you and the Saints in heaven praying for you is that the Saints have departed from this earth. If asking a friend to pray for you does not violate Christ's role as mediator, neither does asking a Saint. So the issue is reduced to "if the Saint's can hear our prayers".

The Orthodox believe that all the Saints are in communion, are united with Christ. So they are not dead but alive in Christ and are able to intercede for us. So too with the living saints...in communion/united with Christ and able to intercede for us. I know the Lutheran concern was "there is no Scriptural proof"--so the best that could be said is "we don't know" if praying to the saints helps. But there is a theological proof based on the Scriptures and it lies in shared communion we have in Christ. The saints can hear our requests for their prayers because of that union.


Actually the Bible does address this. Praying to someone other than God is idolatry. Period.


Well, you are certainly free to think that. For me, I don't trust individuals to think for me any more...I'll go with what the Church has taught through the ages.

But the Scriptures were given to the Church to be the norm and source of teaching. When the Church teaches something that is in direct contradiction or opposition to the Word of God, then that teaching should not be maintained. That was the whole reason for the Reformation in the first place. In that vein "Orthodoxy" is not orthodox.

[NordicLutheran]

Yea I think we should probably just end this thread. Marian worship makes me sick.

[Melethiel]

Nobody I know worships Mary.

[Qoheleth]

Actually, there are a number of things in "Orthodoxy" that conflict with Scripture. One is the idea of theosis, that one becomes God.

Not true, Lutherans hold to an understanding of this doctrine also.

The core of the doctrine of deification, the mystical union, from the Confessions and most thoroughly elucidated by Luther's viewpoint is the idea of real participation in the divine life in Christ. We receive the salvatory gifts through participation in Christ. The Lutheran tradition holds to the idea of God living in the believer (inhabitatio Dei). This is analogous with the doctrine of theosis. According to Luther, Christ and thus his person and work is present in the faith itself. For him, Christ is present in faith is the forma fidei, i.e., the realization or concrete manifestation of faith, the life and transformation of the individual.



"For it is true that a man helped by grace is more than a man; indeed, the grace of God gives him the form of God and deifies him, so that even the Scriptures call him "God" and "God's son." (Luther-Sermon, WA 2, 247-248.)


"Just as the word of God became flesh, so its is certainly also necessary that the flesh become word. For the word becomes flesh precisely so that the flesh may become word. In other words: God becomes man so that man may becomes God. Thus power becomes powerless so that weakness may become powerful". (Luther-sermon, WA 1, 28, 25-32.)





The other is praying to someone other than God. In Scripture, that's called idolatry.


whoops...not so fast

Concerning invocation, the Confessions and the church prohibits only one kind of invocation—calling upon or praying to the saints in place of Christ, or as if one needs to approach them first in order to pray to Jesus. This form of invocation is idolatry since it places trust not in God but in our prayers or in the saints. Other invocations, however, such as asking them to pray for us are permissible.


But the Scriptures were given to the Church to be the norm and source of teaching. When the Church teaches something that is in direct contradiction or opposition to the Word of God, then that teaching should not be maintained. That was the whole reason for the Reformation in the first place. In that vein "Orthodoxy" is not orthodox.


Strawman


Q

[NordicLutheran]

Nobody I know worships Mary.
Marian worship is common in the RCC of course, but it is possible to adore mary without worshiping her. I adore mary but I don't pray to her/worship her.

[Qoheleth]

Marian worship is common in the RCC of course, but it is possible to adore mary without worshiping her. I adore mary but I don't pray to her/worship her.

Wether or not it is common, it is not the teaching of the RCC to worship Mary.

Yet, you say you adore her.

Then you say you dont pray to Mary (and probably the saints also).

What specific prohibition in the Scriptures and the Confessions tell us this, i.e. not to ask Mary or the departed in Christ for their prayers?

Q

[NordicLutheran]

Soli deo Gloria. I used the word adore because I was talking with a byzantine and I was being sensitive, but just for qoheleth I do adove mary. I respect her as much as I respect Moses. The specific prohibition: Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. 1 Tim 2:5 Soli deo Gloria.:amen:

[Qoheleth]

I used the word adore because I was talking with a byzantine and I was being sensitive, but just for qoheleth I do adove mary.

I understand. But dont do it on my account.


The specific prohibition: Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. 1 Tim 2:5 Soli deo Gloria.

Agreed, but we have many intercessors...no?


Q

[ByzantineDixie]

Marian worship makes me sick.

:sick: Me, too!!! Who's doing that?

[LilLamb219]

Agreed, but we have many intercessors...no?

But we aren't guaranteed that they will listen to us. God promises us that He will listen and will always be with us. Why wouldn't everyone want to just go to God directly with his/her prayers?

[Qoheleth]

But we aren't guaranteed that they will listen to us.

Understood, but we are not guaranteed that they wont listen to us either.

Hebrews 12:1 “Since we therefore have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us…’

Rev. 6:9 5th angel: Under the altar are the souls of the martyrs crying out “How long O Lord before you avenge our blood on those on the earth?” God replies, rest until their fellow servants and brethren are killed also.

Rev. 5:8 …the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each on having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS. (Who are the “Elders”? Not angels. They are martyrs: golden crowns and white robes/purity)

Rev. 8:3ff “I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Rev. 7:13 “One of the elders said to me “who are these in the white robes and from where do they come?” And I said, “Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation….”

Hebrews 12:22-23 “You HAVE COME to Mount Zion, and to the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the myriads of angels, to the general assembly, and the Church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.

James 5:16: “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.”


Here are the Bible facts and truths:

Christ overcame death.
The "dead in Christ" are not dead.
Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ.
We have a "Great cloud of witnesses" watching us.
The souls of the martyrs are under the altar of God praying for those being persecuted.
We, when we come into the Church, come to the heavenly Jerusalem to the spirits of “righteous men made perfect”.
The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The elders around the throne are offering up the prayers of the saints to God, the angels offer up the prayers too. (Where did they get those prayers to offer up to God?)
We are commanded as Christians to pray for one another and to ask each other for prayers as an expression of love. Does love for the brethren cease in heaven? (Olic)

Q

[NordicLutheran]

Soli deo Gloria. I used the word adore because I was talking with a byzantine and I was being sensitive, but just for qoheleth I do adove mary. I respect her as much as I respect Moses. The specific prohibition: Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. 1 Tim 2:5 Soli deo Gloria.:amen:
Good thing my post didn't mess up. Lol just kidding it did. I don't know where the I do adove mary came from. I don't adore her lol.

[Melethiel]

Why wouldn't everyone want to just go to God directly with his/her prayers?

Why do you ask other people to pray for you?

[LilLamb219]

Why do you ask other people to pray for you?

Generally, the people I ask acknowledge that they've heard me and give a response. There is no assurance with the dead. I'm assured that God hears me though.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Generally, the people I ask acknowledge that they've heard me and give a response. There is no assurance with the dead. I'm assured that God hears me though.

LOL :)------very good!

[Tetzel]

Private confession and absolution. Does anyone confess here with their pastor? It seems akward but if I had something huge like if I murdered someone I would go to my pastor first. I haven't murdered. Don't look at me like that.:eek:

My father was ELCA and did private confession a couple weeks before he died. The pastor had never done one before.

[Tetzel]

Why do you ask other people to pray for you?

I don't