Confessional Lutheranism

[NordicLutheran]

Hey I'm a member of the LCMS and I was just wondering if there are any confessional lutherans in the ELCA anymore? I don't think there are...then why even keep lutheran in the title. Isn't a non confessional lutheran church basically a reformed church? Also does anyone think that the elca has lost some of its core beliefs by pushing so much ecumenism? :confused:

[Protoevangel]

No, I think I was the last Confessional Lutheran to leave the ELCA. ;) ^_^

I'll leave the serious answers to the people who are still in the ELCA...

[C.F.W. Walther]

Let me look but I think that there is a web site for confessional Lutherans that originated in the ELCA. I remember looking at it and thinking "no way. it's an oxymoron".

[C.F.W. Walther]

yea---here's one group.

http://www.foclnews.org/

[Protoevangel]

yea---here's one group.

http://www.foclnews.org/

There is also:

http://www.wordalone.org

[stumpjumper]

Well it would certainly depend upon what you mean by "Confessional Lutheran"...

If you mean that one affirms the Boof of Concord in a quia manner then there are probably very few ELCA Churches that would be considered Confessional. However, I see no reason why affirming the Confessions in a quia manner is a requirement for considering oneself a Lutheran who affirms the Confessions... The quatenus approach, that is the pretty much unofficial manner within the ELCA, still affirms the Confessions in so far as they are in agreement with the Gospel.

Regardless, a denomination would only be considered Reformed if they affirmed the Westminster Confessions and that's not gonna happen for ELCA Lutherans that much I can guarantee ;)

ELCA Lutherans still affirm justification by faith so I'm still gonna call myself a Lutheran :)

[NordicLutheran]

So stumper with what you just gave me....the elca could be defined as non denominational, they go by faith alone too I think. I'm confused but it looks like I'm not the only one...From The Lutheran magazine I was baptized into the ULCA, confirmed in the LCA, and I am now a member of the ELCA. After reading the proposals between the ELCA and Episcopalians, Reformed and Catholics, I fear I'll soon be a member of the UCLA -- Utterly Confused Lutherans in America. Little by little a new set of letters is becoming more appealing to me: LC-MS. At least those folks can count on their next pastor being Lutheran!

[Melethiel]

Yes, there are still some Confessional Lutherans in the ELCA.

No, I don't think the ELCA could be defined as "non-denominational". For one, most nondenom churches I've seen don't have liturgy or Sacraments.

[NordicLutheran]

I was talking about basic doctrine, not how services are compared. And in that light aren't they basically the same?

[Melethiel]

I was talking about basic doctrine, not how services are compared. And in that light aren't they basically the same?
Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Anyways, the Sacraments ARE basic doctrine, and ELCA and nondenom certainly don't hold that in common. There's a lot more if you dig in.

Of course, certain ELCA churches do resemble nondenom ones in both look and doctrine, but the exact same thing could be said for certain LCMS churches. Overall however, it is an unfair comparison.

[KEPLER]

Well it would certainly depend upon what you mean by "Confessional Lutheran"...

If you mean that one affirms the Boof of Concord in a quia manner then there are probably very few ELCA Churches that would be considered Confessional. However, I see no reason why affirming the Confessions in a quia manner is a requirement for considering oneself a Lutheran who affirms the Confessions... The quatenus approach, that is the pretty much unofficial manner within the ELCA, still affirms the Confessions in so far as they are in agreement with the Gospel.

Well,no one else has said is SJ, so I will...and I I'm not saying this to start anything, I know I'm in the ELCA forum...I only say this as a challenge to the type of logic that lies behind a quatenus confession---

What is the difference between affirming the Book of Concord insofar as it agrees with the Gospel, and affirming the menu from the local Chinese take-out insofar as it agrees with the Gospel?

"Quatenus" tells me absolutley nothing about what you believe.

Cheers,

K

[stumpjumper]

Kepler

Should not the confessions be in agreement with the Gospel? And where one feels the Gospel says something different should not a sola scriptura Christian defer to scripture?

Take the Westminster Confessions as an example... Westminster conflates the Word of God with the entirety of scripture (Westminster Confession of Faith I.4) and therefore those who affirm the Westminster Confessions in a quia manner view the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.

However, scripture never makes this distinction and our Confessions specifically state the the Word of God is Jesus Christ, God's only Son. In essence, a quia manner in regards to Westminster ends up having the Westminster Confessions trump scripture. We don't have that problem with the Book of Concord IRT to the Word of God 'cause Luther knew better ;)

Anyway, I do not believe that the Lutheran confessions (or any confessions for that matter) should ever be held above scripture and therefore a quatenus approach (in so far as) makes much more sense to me...

All in all, I can only think of one issue off the top of my head where ELCA defers to scripture and that is the ordination of women...

ETA: I think that you will find ELCA Lutherans to hold to the Confessions if there are differing opinions on certain passages when it comes to various views of soteriology or God's relationship with man and the world. Take monergism for instance. The Confesssions are monergistic but there are scriptural passages that alude to synergism. Now if a Lutheran were to completely go against the confessions and affirmed synergism because there are some passages that can be read that way then they have taken any and all authority away from the Book of Concord.

In essence, the Confessions are an authority to be viewed along with scripture (IMO) but not something that should be considered equal to scripture and not something that must be affirmed in it's totality to still be considered authoritative.

[NordicLutheran]

All in all, I can only think of one issue off the top of my head where ELCA defers to scripture and that is the ordination of women...

Open communion, Homosexual Clergy, Errancy of the bible. I would say that the Elca defers a lot to scripture. I think this thread should be closed. I shouldn't have started a topic that was going to become a debate, especially with the low church.

[Melethiel]

especially with the low church

What's that supposed to mean? The only context I'm familiar with that term is in liturgics, and I don't think you're referring to that, because overall the ELCA is more high church than the LCMS. :P

[NordicLutheran]

Just look on wikipedia under high church lutheranism. Basically the lutheran churches who have resisted liberal theology and pietism are high church lutheran. For example a lutheran church that ordains woman is a low church. So literally the elca is a low church. No pun intended sorry melethiel. :)

[stumpjumper]

Open communion, Homosexual Clergy, Errancy of the bible. I would say that the Elca defers a lot to scripture. I think this thread should be closed. I shouldn't have started a topic that was going to become a debate, especially with the low church.

ELCA does not have gay clergy. Most Churches only have open communion with those denominations with which they are in full communion with and that is not a light task if you look at the discussion between ELCA and the UMC's...

And the inerrancy of scripture is not a Confessional position, AFAIK.

Also, any ELCA Church I have attended, with the exception of my current one, has definitely been high Church. The high/low-Church distinction generally pertains to liturgy...

If you wish the thread could be closed or moved to the open Lutheran area as well...

[NordicLutheran]

I say just end this thread and I'll start a low/high church thread on the the main lutheran forums.

[stumpjumper]

At your request :)