Do some of you not say the nicene creed at your parish?

[gtsecc]

Why?

[SeenAndUnseen]

Is it allowed for Anglicans to not say the Nicene Creed when it is part of the liturgy? :scratch: This should not be a question, should it?

[romaneagle13]

I thought all of us said it. I have never heard of an Anglican church that doesn't affirm or recite the creed.

[Anij]

I thought all of us said it. I have never heard of an Anglican church that doesn't affirm or recite the creed.
We say either the Nicene (most of the time) , or the Apostles' Creed, depending on the Season etc.

[SirTimothy]

We say it. Without the filoque too.

Timothy

[erin74]

We use both the apostles and nicene creeds. We even sometimes say the athanasian creed.

What gave you the impression that some don't say the creed?

[higgs2]

We say it.

I know that some Episcopal churches say an alternative 'creed" or affirmation of their faith in the same place where we say the Nicene creed in our liturgy.

[Tomoz]

One of our priests who is uber-liberal would like a new creed written but so far it has been kept as it stands.

[Lel]

I did a while back attend an Episcopal church which sometimes did not recite the creed during abbreviated services. This was the only example of that that I had seen, however.

[SirTimothy]

Oh, CW has about five creeds in it, some new some old. We use the Nicene at communion though.

Timothy

[karen freeinchristman]

We say the Nicene creed at HC, the apostles creed or athanasian creed sometimes at non-HC, and I think occasionally we have said some kind of alternative creed, but not at an HC service.

[ebia]

My old church in England used the following for Family Services (the main Eucharistic service on the 2nd Sunday of each month):


Do you believe and trust in God the Father, who made the world?
All I believe and trust in him.
Do you believe and trust in his Son Jesus Christ, who redeemed mankind?
All I believe and trust in him.
Do you believe and trust in his Holy Spirit, who gives life to the people of God?
All I believe and trust in him.
This is the faith of the Church
All This is our faith
We believe and trust in one God,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Otherwise it was Niceneor Apostles.

I don't have a problem with anything in the Nicene Creed, but the points it was written to address are not necessarly the points we need to address in our main public declaration of faith each week, so I have no problem with Anglican (or other) churches that vary it to some other appropriate creedal statement.

[gtsecc]

Does a parish even have the authority to not say the creed?
A priest crosses his stole to show that he has no authority of his own.
Have some forgotten or conveniently disregarded this?

[karen freeinchristman]

Does a parish even have the authority to not say the creed?
A priest crosses his stole to show that he has no authority of his own.
Have some forgotten or conveniently disregarded this?

This is what I have found at the Church of England website (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship/liturgy/commonworship/texts/word/creeds.html)

At a celebration of Holy Communion, the Apostles' Creed or the Athanasian Creed in an authorized form may be used in place of the Nicene Creed, or an authorized Affirmation of Faith may be used. Suitable words of introduction or conclusion (such as 'Let us declare our faith in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit') to the Creed or Affirmation of Faith may be used.

[karen freeinchristman]

Authorized Affirmations of Faith

In addition to the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed and the Athanasian Creed, the following forms of the Creeds and these Affirmations of Faith are also authorized.

1 Do you believe and trust in God the Father, source of all being and life, the one for whom we exist?
All
We believe and trust in him.

Do you believe and trust in God the Son, who took our human nature, died for us and rose again?
All
We believe and trust in him.

Do you believe and trust in God the Holy Spirit, who gives life to the people of God and makes Christ known in the world?
All
We believe and trust in him.

This is the faith of the Church.
All
This is our faith. We believe and trust in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Amen.

2 We proclaim the Church's faith in Jesus Christ.
All
We believe and declare that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both divine and human.
God, of the being of the Father, the only Son from before time began; human from the being of his mother, born in the world;
All
fully God and fully human; human in both mind and body.
As God he is equal to the Father, as human he is less than the Father.
All
Although he is both divine and human he is not two beings but one Christ.
One, not by turning God into flesh, but by taking humanity into God;
All
truly one, not by mixing humanity with Godhead, but by being one person.
For as mind and body form one human being so the one Christ is both divine and human.
All
The Word became flesh and lived among us; we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
from the Athanasian Creed

3 All
We believe in God the Father, God almighty, by whose plan earth and heaven sprang to being, all created things began. We believe in Christ the Saviour, Son of God in human frame, virgin-born, the child of Mary upon whom the Spirit came. Christ, who on the cross forsaken, like a lamb to slaughter led, suffered under Pontius Pilate, he descended to the dead. We believe in Jesus risen, heaven's king to rule and reign, to the Father's side ascended till as judge he comes again. We believe in God the Spirit; in one Church, below, above: saints of God in one communion, one in holiness and love. So by faith, our sins forgiven, Christ our Saviour, Lord and friend, we shall rise with him in glory to the life that knows no end.
(May be sung to any 87 87 or 87 87D tune.)

4 Let us affirm our faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God. All
Though he was divine, he did not cling to equality with God, but made himself nothing. Taking the form of a slave, he was born in human likeness. He humbled himself and was obedient to death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God has raised him on high, and given him the name above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, and every voice proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
cf Philippians 2.6-11

5 Let us declare our faith in the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All
Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures; he was buried; he was raised to life on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures; afterwards he appeared to his followers, and to all the apostles: this we have received, and this we believe. Amen.
cf 1 Corinthians 15.3-7

6 We say together in faith
All
Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.
We believe in God the Father, who created all things:
All
for by his will they were created and have their being.
We believe in God the Son, who was slain:
All
for with his blood, he purchased us for God, from every tribe and language, from every people and nation.
We believe in God the Holy Spirit:
All
the Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come!' Even so come, Lord Jesus! Amen.
cf Revelation 4.8,11; 5.9; 22.17,20

7 Let us declare our faith in God.
All
We believe in God the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named. We believe in God the Son, who lives in our hearts through faith, and fills us with his love. We believe in God the Holy Spirit, who strengthens us with power from on high. We believe in one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.

[gtsecc]

hmmm...
We are loath to force folks to do anything, but is there a good reason to not use the creed, which we know is the Holy Spirit speaking to us? Isn’t it arrogant and sinful of us to say, well, Holy Sprit, that was nice of you, but really, the creed is a bit drab and might be off putting to seekers, so we are going with this new thing we have just recently made up.

Saying the creed is partially a confession that the faith is bigger than we are, and it connects us to the other historic confessions.

Not saying the creed is saying that the faith is something that happens uniquely in our parish, and we want to change it to deliberately remove ourselves from any notion of the wider confession.

It is almost like saying a parishes own personal Gnosticism trumps the Creed or Holy Spirit.

[SirTimothy]

A priest crosses his stole to show that he has no authority of his own.

Crosses stole? What do you mean? I don't think I've ever met a priest who does that (from high to low church)

[karen freeinchristman]

hmmm...
We are loath to force folks to do anything, but is there a good reason to not use the creed, which we know is the Holy Spirit speaking to us? Isn’t it arrogant and sinful of us to say, well, Holy Sprit, that was nice of you, but really, the creed is a bit drab and might be off putting to seekers, so we are going with this new thing we have just recently made up.

Saying the creed is partially a confession that the faith is bigger than we are, and it connects us to the other historic confessions.

Not saying the creed is saying that the faith is something that happens uniquely in our parish, and we want to change it to deliberately remove ourselves from any notion of the wider confession.

It is almost like saying a parishes own personal Gnosticism trumps the Creed or Holy Spirit.

Well, I've only produced this to show what the official position of the Church of England is, and I don't think it is wrong to use a different affirmation on occasion. I do think that it is important to keep using the traditional creeds, too.

[karen freeinchristman]

Crosses stole? What do you mean? I don't think I've ever met a priest who does that (from high to low church)

Me, neither. What does it mean when the stole is hanging down longer on one side than the other? That's how my priest wears his. Also, his white surplice is usually not centred very well on his shoulders, slightly off the shoulder on one side. What does this mean? ;)

[gtsecc]

Crosses stole? What do you mean? I don't think I've ever met a priest who does that (from high to low church)
It mean - no authority - the Bishops holds the authority

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Stolepriest.jpg/450px-Stolepriest.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Stolepriest.jpg)

[SirTimothy]

Never seen that, from the anglo-catholic to the low churchman.

[gtsecc]

About the creeds - We simply can't become a confession of Christ that has Eucharist Prayers without the creeds - that is unheard of, and a serious concern.
We need to say, "Thank you God for the creed," not "We'll make up our own."
Not only does that go against Lambeth, it goes against Christianity. Why do we do this to ourselves? When we reinvent the faith, we hurt not only the parish doing it, but all of Christendom. We are not a faith in a vacuum; we can’t act in ways that hurt the body of Christ.

[karen freeinchristman]

About the creeds - We simply can't become a confession of Christ that has Eucharist Prayers without the creeds - that is unheard of, and a serious concern.
We need to say, "Thank you God for the creed," not "We'll make up our own."
Not only does that go against Lambeth, it goes against Christianity. Why do we do this to ourselves? When we reinvent the faith, we hurt not only the parish doing it, but all of Christendom. We are not a faith in a vacuum; we can’t act in ways that hurt the body of Christ.
Glen, I'm really sorry you seem to be so upset by this. Using a different affirmation of faith occasionally does not make the Nicene creed obsolete. It will always be the definitive creed. But we have not ever been commanded to say it every Sunday. Even at the Council of Nicea - did they state officially that we had to all recite this every Sunday? I don't know, but perhaps you know.

[gtsecc]

Is it allowed for Anglicans to not say the Nicene Creed when it is part of the liturgy? :scratch: This should not be a question, should it?

Heck no it should not even be a question.
That some would even question it, is cause for grave concern.
How can we claim to be Christian if we don't want to claim to be Christistians? If you don't want to say the creed, then you don't want to claim to be Christian. I am totally confused by all of this.

[karen freeinchristman]

I do believe we have been commanded to say it at every Eucharist.
.

I'm pretty sure the onus is on you to substantiate that claim with a reference, gtsecc.

[AngCath]

If you look at pages 400-401 in the 1979 BCP (ECUSA) then you will find that the Nicene Creed is not a requirement for Holy Eucharist. The parts of the service that are required are:
1. Proclaim and Respond to the Word of God
2. Pray for the World and the Church
3. Exchange the Peace
4. Prepare the Table
5. Make Eucharist
6. Break the Bread
7. Share the Gifts of God

[gtsecc]

I'm pretty sure the onus is on you to substantiate that claim with a reference, gtsecc.
No, the onus is on those who don't say the creed, and also say they are part of the Chruch.
I am sure, however, that I can defend my position.
I think what we want to show is no that the liturgy hasn't evolved, but that it is some how connected to the liturgy of all time and all places.

Celebration of the Eucharist does this.
However, I am not sure we can find a celebration of the Eucharist where the creed is not confessed.
I am not sure.

[gtsecc]

If someone said, "I don't have to believe in God to be Christian." I would be apoplectic.
Hearing about places that don't say the creed, is only slightly less of a concern for me. But, I want to learn and know more. Someone help me understand why we would not say it, and why that is ok. Citing the BCP, calls the BCP into question, not the creed.

[AngCath]

If someone said, "I don't have to believe in God to be Christian." I would be apoplectic.
Hearing about places that don't say the creed, is only slightly less of a concern for me. But, I want to learn and know more. Someone help me understand why we would not say it, and why that is ok. Citing the BCP, calls the BCP into question, not the creed.


I think we could all agree that the Nicene Creed is something that we should recite but not something that we must. Don't forget, for the Holy Eucharist Rites I&II in the BCP, the Creed is included. The criteria on 400-401 is for a short Eucharist that isn't intended for the primary Sunday worship anyway.

[AngCath]

I also don't think that anyone is calling the Nicene Creed into question.

[karen freeinchristman]

gtsecc, the Council of Nicea formulated the Creed, right? Well, it is a wonderful way of affirming the faith, I agree. However, this in no way means that we must say it at every HC service. The BCP doesn't say we have to. You can claim that is a problem with the BCP, but if you are going to claim that, and claim that the Nicene Creed has always been said by everyone everywhere, you have to back up that claim. Especially if you are going to take your claim further to say that by not reciting the creed we are somehow not being Christian, or that we are changing the faith somehow.
Not saying it everytime doesn't mean that we don't believe it!

[SirTimothy]

So what did the pre-nicene christians do?

[gtsecc]

So what did the pre-nicene christians do?
Well, some fell into error - Arianism for example.

[Naomi4Christ]

We use the Nicene Creed when we celebrate the Lord's Supper, and alternative affirmations in other services. Thanks, Karen, for listing them. We use no. 1 when we have baptisms, and 4, 5, 7 at other times. I like the affirmations, especially the end of no 5: "this we have received and this we believe".

[ebia]

Well, some fell into error - Arianism for example.
The big problem of the time which the Nicene Creed was designed to address. Perhaps what we need to recite in church each week is whatever is needed for this moment, not a moment 1600 years ago.

[RadixLecti]

We always say either the nicene or apostles' creed.

I've never seen the crossed stole before either.

[pmcleanj]

In historic Anglican thought, the Church is "where the Pure word is preached and the Sacraments duly celebrated" (both of which can be done without reciting the creed). The Church is the 'Body and Bride of Christ'; it is 'the Whole Company of all Faithful People.

Frankly, I would not ever suggest that a fellow Christian should not consider himself to be part of the Church. To do so would be to suggest that they are not part of the Body, are in fact "not really Christian", are anathema.

It would be more than a little overreactive, to suggest anathematizing people for not reciting a particular verbal formula.

[chalice_thunder]

We believe in God the Father, God almighty, by whose plan earth and heaven sprang to being, all created things began. We believe in Christ the Saviour, Son of God in human frame, virgin-born, the child of Mary upon whom the Spirit came. Christ, who on the cross forsaken, like a lamb to slaughter led, suffered under Pontius Pilate, he descended to the dead. We believe in Jesus risen, heaven's king to rule and reign, to the Father's side ascended till as judge he comes again. We believe in God the Spirit; in one Church, below, above: saints of God in one communion, one in holiness and love. So by faith, our sins forgiven, Christ our Saviour, Lord and friend, we shall rise with him in glory to the life that knows no end.
(May be sung to any 87 87 or 87 87D tune.)

Thank you for this excellent resource, karen!

We sing the creed in metrical form as well. (also 87.87.D) This is the text (altered only slightly) from Wonder, Love and Praise:

I believe in God almighty,
author of all things that be,
Maker of the earth and heavens,
Keeper of the sky and sea.
I believe in God’s son, Jesus,
now for us both Lord and Christ,
of the Spirit and of Mary
born to bring abundant life.

I believe that Jesus suffered,
scourged and scorned and crucified;
taken from the cross, was buried—
True Life there had truly died.
I believe that on the third day
Christ was raised up from the grave,
then ascended to God right hand.
He will come to judge and save.

I believe in God’s own Spirit,
bonding all the saints within
One church, catholic and holy,
where forgiveness frees from sin;
in the body’s resurrection,
for the breaking of death’s chain
gives the life that’s everlasting.
This the faith that I have claimed.

I have always thought the creed, when recited, was antithetical, and really stops the flow of the liturgy. SInging it really helps!

[chalice_thunder]

dp*

But as long as I'm here, I thought I would add to the thoughts on this subject.

#1 - in the 1979 BCP, the rubric clearly states: On Sundays and other Major Feasts there follows, all standing The Nicene Creed

I personally don't agree with that - but, there it is. As I posted earlier, we have found that singing it (we use 5 different tunes, depending on the season) is an excellent way to bring life to something that is otherwise a rather boring "by rote" exercise. (ASIDE: This is also the reason I do not like corporate confession on a weekly basis...many people just bump through the words and give little heed to them. I find it much better to confess with my Spiritual Director and/or my priest)

Since the Eucharistic Prayer basically hits all of the same Credal material, I think it is redundant.
Even though I have grown up with the rhythm of the creed following the sermon, it has never felt "right" to me.
After hearing Scripture and Sermon, I am ready to pray and go to the Table.