Question about the Theotokos

[Vedant]

The Orthodox believe that Mary did not commit any sin.

She remained and remains a virgin, I believe according to Orthodox teaching as well.

Why is this?

Is this just a belief out of tradition?

What is this all about?

Does it have any theological implications as it does in West?

[Vedant]

Also, does it relate in any way to Mary's assumption?

[repentant]

Are you asking why you believe it?

[Vedant]

No, I'm asking what you believe about Mary, and why you believe it.

[Lisa0315]

Just posting so I can watch this thread.

[Vedant]

Hi Lisa!

[repentant]

Oh sorry missunderstood.

Well it's basically Apostolic Tradition that's been handed down. There are also ancient writings about the Theotokos..

[Vedant]

*

Hehe, I'll wait until some others chime in before responding again.

Thanks!

[Lisa0315]

Hi Lisa!

HI!:wave:

[Vedant]

Everyone in this thread has lions.

[Lisa0315]

Everyone in this thread has lions.

How cool is that! I would not have noticed that. You are very observant!

[The Prokeimenon!]

It is a teaching rooted in the Old Testament prophecies regarding Christ.

I have to get ready for Vespers, but maybe later I'll post some of the scriptures that point to the ever-virginity of the Theotokos.

Rdr Moses

[The Prokeimenon!]

Everyone in this thread has lions.

Sorry :blush: I have no lion.

Rdr Moses

[Vedant]

It is a teaching rooted in the Old Testament prophecies regarding Christ.

I have to get ready for Vespers, but maybe later I'll post some of the scriptures that point to the ever-virginity of the Theotokos.

Rdr Moses

I would REALLY appreciate this. Thank you!

[Dewi Sant]

How cool is that! I would not have noticed that. You are very observant!


The lions was the first thing I noticed ^_^ .


BTW, I am amazed on how quickly this topic went off subject.

most topics go off subject by about the 3rd page, this went off halfway along the first:D

[The Prokeimenon!]

The following is a passage we read at many services of the Theotokos.

Thus saith the Lord: upon the eighth day and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings, and I will accept you, saith the Lord God. Then He brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the Lord unto me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. As for the Prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same. Then brought He me the way of the north gate before the house, and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.

The Fathers understood this gate to be the womb of the Virgin. It was shut, then the Lord entered, and it remained shut.

We also understand the Theotokos to be the new "Ark of the Covenant." The Ark was the vessel that contained the words of God (the stone tablets engraved by the finger of God.) If anybody were to touch the Ark, they would die. Mary was the Ark that contained the very Word of God- God in the flesh.

There's more- which I'll have to look for. I may not get it posted tonight, but I'm sure others will have more info too.

Rdr Moses

[Lisa0315]

The following is a passage we read at many services of the Theotokos.



The Fathers understood this gate to be the womb of the Virgin. It was shut, then the Lord entered, and it remained shut.

We also understand the Theotokos to be the new "Ark of the Covenant." The Ark was the vessel that contained the words of God (the stone tablets engraved by the finger of God.) If anybody were to touch the Ark, they would die. Mary was the Ark that contained the very Word of God- God in the flesh.

There's more- which I'll have to look for. I may not get it posted tonight, but I'm sure others will have more info too.

Rdr Moses

Hi Rdr Moses,
I have seen you make this statement before and you have said that if Mary were not a perpetual virgin, then, Jesus was not the Christ. Have I represented your belief correctly? If so, can you please expand on this because it is my understanding that this is NOT established Catholic doctrine. The Messiah must come from a virgin, yes. That said virgin remaining a virgin is NOT a Messanic requirement. Yes or No?

Edit: I just realized that I was in a denomination specific forum. Please let me know if I need to rephrase my question or delete completely.

Lisa

[choirfiend]

Lisa-I'm sure Reader Moses will answer, but just because I like saying stuff:)--We're not Catholic, so Catholic doctrine doesnt affect us much.

And, this is just more of the same-ol same-ol when it comes to threads discussing the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos, but it's still good stuff.
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm#ever_virginity
http://holytrinity.ok.goarch.org/Interesting%20Stuff/face_up_to_mary.html
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9174.asp
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

[The Prokeimenon!]

Hi Rdr Moses,
I have seen you make this statement before and you have said that if Mary were not a perpetual virgin, then, Jesus was not the Christ. Have I represented your belief correctly? If so, can you please expand on this because it is my understanding that this is NOT established Catholic doctrine. The Messiah must come from a virgin, yes. That said virgin remaining a virgin is NOT a Messanic requirement. Yes or No?

Edit: I just realized that I was in a denomination specific forum. Please let me know if I need to rephrase my question or delete completely.

Lisa

Your question is fine :)

Let me say first, that I'm writing according to my understanding, and I don't represent official Orthodox teaching- I try to get it right, but I'm not infallible (nobody in Orthodoxy is infallible ;) )

As I understand it, that the Mother of the Messiah must be a perpetual virgin is in fact a messianic requirement. My only hesitation is that, while looking around online, I wasn't able to find that, which is why I say that my understanding may be flawed. I have read that this is the Orthodox position, but I can't remember where.

If anybody else can confirm whether or not this is the case, please chime in.

I'll keep looking.

Rdr Moses

[Lisa0315]

Lisa-I'm sure Reader Moses will answer, but just because I like saying stuff:)--We're not Catholic, so Catholic doctrine doesnt affect us much.

And, this is just more of the same-ol same-ol when it comes to threads discussing the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos, but it's still good stuff.
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm#ever_virginity
http://holytrinity.ok.goarch.org/Interesting%20Stuff/face_up_to_mary.html
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9174.asp
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

Oh, I am so sorry. I thought you guys were Catholic, but not reporting to the Pope. :doh: When will I learn to look before I leap!:blush:

Lisa

[Vedant]

Lisa-I'm sure Reader Moses will answer, but just because I like saying stuff:)--We're not Catholic, so Catholic doctrine doesnt affect us much.

It's interesting though...many Roman Catholic things (e.g. original sin, the basis for the seven major sacraments, the liturgy, praying to and venerating saints, church structure, church history, free will, amongst many other things) I've understood through Eastern Christianity, oddly enough.

A lot of Roman Catholic things I find more comfortable to believe, because you guys believe the same things, such as the assumption of the Theotokos and the seven ecumenical councils.

In my opinion, Eastern Christianity is *theologically* cooler.

;-)

Continuous salvation and deification...those are just awesome.

[The Prokeimenon!]

In my opinion, Eastern Christianity is *theologically* cooler.


:clap:

That's going in my signature!

Rdr Moses

[buzuxi02]

The virgin Mary is sinless but not in the way roman catholics define it. Roman catholics claim she was spared from original sin at the moment of her conception. In Orthodoxy all inherit the FRUITS of ancestral sin which is Death but not guilt. That is why we refer to the falling asleep of the Virgin Mary and this can be viewed in the icon for that feast day. Jesus was the only one born without ancestral sin. In the gospel of John we see that the death of Christ was voluntarily, he had the power to lay it down and take it again. The jewish tradition of his time also supports this when the jews said, "THE MESSIAH REMAINS FOREVER" (john 12.34)Also in Orthodoxy we do not define WHEN she became sinless. Most theologians prefer to consider it theosis ,some believed it occured at the Annunciation, John Chrysostom believed she had minor faults but had a special grace because she recieved the Holy Spirt a second time at pentecost. Origen in 230 ad was the first to call her Panayia (all-holy) in the sense that she acheieved a level of theosis higher than anyone can recieve , All these are opinions of course and more opinions can be "uncovered" from using liturgical texts and hymns. Again in the end the Orthodox church has never made an attempt to define When she became sinless and rejects any claim that she was spared from original sin.

[buzuxi02]

The ever-virginity of Mary is based upon the holy traditions and is considered historical fact, but not as prophetic criteria of the messiah. Orthodoxy believes Joseph was an old man who passed away sometime before the start of Christs's ministry. He was given as betrothed to Mary for a companion. Mary was given over to the temple at 3 years old to serve in the temple with the expectation that she remained a virgin. This is how Mary knew Elizabeth and the priest Zacharias. The KJV mistakenly mistranslates the greek word (suggeneis) as cousin but should read "kinswoman". When she began menstruating it was custom to submit the names of the girls so they can pair them with the elgible bachelors. Mary though having taken a vow of celibacy could not be married so the elder Joseph was given as a companion. The aspect of Mary that she remain a virgin because of a vow her parents pledged to God, (as they were without child and would dedicate her to the Lord if God granted them a baby) parallels the daughter of Jepthah (judges 11.34-39). this is also seen in Mary's response to the angel "How can it be for i know not a man"(LK 1.34) the same chapter already claims she was espoused to Joseph (v 27) so it is seen that she never had any intention to have a sexual relaton with Joseph since such a reply would have been silly. In Matthew Joseph is never seen as the head of the family but simply as a guardian to Jesus. In (Matt 2. 13-14, 20-21) Joseph is told to take the "young child and his mother" ,no reference to his son, wife or family. Finally James (and the other siblings) are not from Mary. When Jesus was on the cross He told John ,"behold your mother" and to Mary "behold your son" from that day on she lived with John. Its impossible that after that moment she packed her bags and moved out of James house and forsook the other siblings in order to move in with John. In fact it would have been against mosaic law. This act of Jesus placing his mother's care with John proves he was the only child and Mary a widow with one son: Jesus. If you need further information on internal evidence from the bible on Mary's perpetual virginity or the relation of Jesus siblings just ask.