question about venerating icons

[kamikat]

Do you venerate the icons at church when you're sick? Does it creep you out when you see other people coughing and sneezing, venerating the icons? Just wondering what the norm is...

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

I am not sure what the norm is, but yes I venerate icons when I am sick. Icons are a sacred meeting place between God and the saints and man, and as such I would especially encourage those who are ill to venerate them. I doubt anyone ever got sick from venerating an icon that had been venerated by a sick person.

[She]

This would worry me to.

Is it also true that you all receive Holy Communion on a spoon? Is it the same spoon?

[nutroll]

I have no worries about receiving communion when sick, or when I know someone else is sick. If we truly believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, then we believe that there can be no corruption in the Body and Blood of Christ. There was a big scare when AIDS was first brought to our attention, and that was what the church put forth to calm people down about receiving communion from a communal cup.

As for Icons, I don't think the same principle applies. It is possible for God to protect us from getting sick, but it may be better not to put others at risk. I have always erred on the side of caution and stayed home if I knew that I was sick with a communicable disease.

There is a prayer in St. Basil's Liturgy where the priest specifically prays for those who are absent for reasonable cause, and I think that being sick, and being worried about getting others sick is a reasonable cause. Just my opinion on this, you may want to check with your priest though.

[Monica, child of God]

I never worry about kissing icons or the communion spoon. If it were possible to catch something, we would have died out long ago. Priests and deacons must consume all of the Eucharist left in the chalice after everyone else has communed. They would be sick all the time if there was any chance of catching something from the common cup.

M.
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QUESTION:

This question does not mean to be offensive, but the issue of the possibility of spreading disease from contact with icons and the cross during veneration, and also from the communion spoon, has come up more than once from inquirers at our mission parish. One couple did not join the church because of their concern with receiving communion from a common chalice and spoon. Another inquirer was willing to accept that the Eucharist would not spread disease, but they were concerned with venerating icons, and asked if it was absolutely necessary to venerate icons and the cross by kissing them, or would it be acceptable to bow close to them or make some other form of physical contact beside kissing.

Especially in modern times, where the spread of disease is understood better and there are diseases such as herpes and AIDS, we need to understand this concern, be able to properly explain it to people and ourselves, and understand what alternatives are acceptable.

Could you please address how we should view the possibility (or impossibility) of the spread of disease from (1) veneration of icons and (2) from the common chalice and spoon?


ANSWER:

I hope that you will not consider my answer to be brief or glib, but there are only a few things one can say concerning these matters.

With regard to the reception of Holy Communion:

If one receives Communion in the proper manner, one would tilt one's head back and open one's mouth as wide as possible, thereby allowing the priest to simply drop the Body and Blood of Christ into the communicant's mouth without ever coming into contact with the spoon.

Even when the spoon does come into contact with one's mouth, it is highly unlikely that viruses such as AIDS would be transmitted since it has been widely reported that the AIDS virus is rendered impotent when it comes into contact with air or water; it has been widely reported that even the transmittal of AIDS through saliva is rare; the alcohol content in the wine which becomes the Blood of Christ, combined with the boiling hot water added to the chalice right before the reception of Holy Communion, kills most viruses and other germs.

We, as Orthodox Christians, firmly believe that what is being received is the Body and Blood of Christ. It is a matter of faith that one cannot contract a disease from the Body and Blood of Christ.

On the lighter side, the priest or, in parishes that have a deacon, the deacon consumes the remaining Eucharist after it is distributed to the faithful. There are no cases of clergy becoming infected as a result of consuming the Holy Gifts after the Liturgy.

I believe that quite a number of years ago the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese had checked all of this out with a group of doctors, all of whom drew the same general conclusions that the transmittal of disease via the chalice -- especially the AIDS virus -- is not possible.

With regard to the kissing of icons and the cross: I have never heard of anyone who has become ill as a result of this. Of course, there may be cases in which individuals with serious flus or other ailments may wish to refrain from doing so.

I have been a parish priest for 25 years and have never encountered these concerns, nor have I ever feared for my health as a result of receiving or consuming the Eucharist or kissing an icon or cross -- and, believe me, priests come into contact with such things much more regularly than the laity. While I have heard from time to time concerns about the Eucharistic spoon, it would seem that the reception of the Eucharist directly into the mouth from the priest's hand, which may very well come into contact with a communicant's tongue and lips, may very well be less sanitary. The same would go for those confessions in which the faithful partake of the chalice by drinking directly from it.

Following the Eucharistic Liturgy and the consumption of the remaining Holy Gifts by the priest or deacon, the chalice, diskos, and spoon are usually cleanse with boiling hot water and carefully covered, protecting them even from the air, dust, etc.

While I would acknowledge that there are a host of viruses and diseases making the rounds in today's world, it would seem that in times past matters were somewhat worse. The Bubonic plague and Black Death come to mind here. So are the more recent times in which TB, polio and other diseases were rampant. If one focuses their faith on Jesus Christ, one must assume that His Body and Blood, which is the "fountain of life and immortality," simply cannot be the cause of illness, disease, or death.

Finally, I would ask an individual who would opt not to explore entrance into the Orthodox Church because of the Communion spoon if he or she is equally cautious about eating in public places. There have been far more reported incidents of people acquiring hepatitis, ecoli, and other diseases and conditions at restaurants, receptions, picnics, etc. than from the Eucharist. Just last week in Chicago quite a number of restaurants were shut down after rodent droppings were discovered in their kitchens -- and some of these were well known, reputable establishments. Consistency would dictate that those who fear the Eucharistic spoon might also refrain from eating in any public establishments. After all, doing so implies that we put our faith in the owners, managers, and servers and their willingness to make sure that everything is sterile and virus free. Such, of course, is not always the case. [Recently there was a case in our area of 80 people who had contracted hepatitis at a wedding reception. It was subsequently discovered that one of the cooks was a carrier. Makes one wonder!]

[Monica, child of God]

That was Father John Matusiak. (http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=105&SID=3)

M.

[Khaleas]

I've honestly been less sick in the past year since I became Orthodox.
I was always sick before, any bug that came around, I got. I think it's partially because I stress a bit less after becoming Orthodox and partially because I'm exposed to so many bugs that my immunity has become better. When I was little my parents guarded me from every person with the smallest sneeze so I had no immunity from your average cold or flu. I was 16 when I had chickenpox because my parents had pulled me out of school when it went through everyone else (so when my little brothers got it, I finally did, about 10 years too late). So please parents, while it stinks to have a sick child, let them catch the random bug now and again and they won't miss a ton of class in college or later in life.

[Kolya]

Though Father often seems to have a cold, kissing icons and taking communion from the spoon has never bothered me. If I'm really ill I will stay at home in any case.
Our icons glass at church are cleaned regularly throughout the DL too.

[Michael the Iconographer]

This would worry me to.

Is it also true that you all receive Holy Communion on a spoon? Is it the same spoon?

Yes, we do all receive the Eucharist on the same golden spoon as everyone else. If you truly believe the Eucharist to be the Body of Christ (and all that that means) then you should have no issue receiving the Eucharist on a spoon for 2 reasons. 1. No one's hands are holy enough to touch the Body of Christ and 2. God is Holiness and Being unto himself and thus it is impossible for the spoon to transmit illness.

[eoe]

1 - you can venerate an icon without ever touching it
2 - females especially are supposed to wipe their lips before kissing the icons - it is not a "wet your lips and pucker" kinda thing.
3 - I do not know of anyone that would leave slobber/snot on an icon
4 - if you are taking communion properly you open your mouth like a little bird - you do not take it like an old man eating soup.
5 - IF you are worried about illness, wash your hands when you go to the potty - you have a FAR greater chance of getting sick from not doing this than from something at church (and very few people do it- eep!)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Reps to EOE.

[Kolya]

Reps to EOE.

Agreed!!!:thumbsup:

[Vasileios]

This used to be an issue in Greece many many years ago. Since then there have been signs to confirm that there is no possible way a disease can be transmitted through the Eucharist.

I especially like the story of the Spinalonga island. Its a small island very near the shores of Crete (where I live). For many years it was the place they took lepers to live away, this happening until quite recent times in Crete (previous century). The priest who visited them always shared the same chalice and spoon with the lepers and never contracted anything. I believe there were some cases of miraculous healings too but I am not sure. I have talked to many people from the area who knew the last priest who administered the people there...

If you look in the church fathers or especially the desert fathers and the gerontikon books there are many stories about the Eucharist that are major eye-openers! :)

That said, look at how many babies share the same spoon with everybody and I have never heard in history of any disease cases. This coming from a member of a family of 7 children, all receiving communion from a very early age...

I think the "rules" about the head tilting back and wide open mouths serve more as a means to avoid scandalizing the laity and actually assisting the priest, not as an actual precautionary measure...


But these are difficult times, it is hard to balance in one's head theology and modern rationalization. Its why we must never trust our head but rather our Mother Church if (like me) we are unable by ourselves to put complete trust in God...

[kamikat]

Thanks for the answers! I think he point is moot at this point. This cold is getting worse, not better. I think I'll will be spending the rest of the day in bed. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

kamikat

[Michael the Iconographer]

Thanks for the answers! I think he point is moot at this point. This cold is getting worse, not better. I think I'll will be spending the rest of the day in bed. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

kamikat

Did you take any vitamin c?

[Monica, child of God]

Oh, I didn't know that you were sick. :crosseo:

Do you have a little holy water that you could add to your tea or juice?

M.

[eoe]

or antitheron?

[ClementofRome]

Additional question concerning kissing icons:

When I went to DL last week, I did notice that most who kissed the icons kissed their hand and touched the icon and then kissed their hand again (at least I think that this was the procedure), but when it came to venerating the cross at the end, it was a lip kiss on the cross.

Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method? Is it only in certain traditions?

[Matrona]

Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method?

I sure hope so. :) I do that, myself, when there are candles near whatever it is I'm venerating, since I have long hair and I wear a scarf.

[Khaleas]

I use the hand too when the icon is hard to reach or there are candles that could light me on fire.

[Kolya]

Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method? Is it only in certain traditions?

Well, like Matrona, I do that too if an icon is too high up the wall or if there are candles burning in front of it. It is quite acceptable in our parish, and I've seen monks doing that too, so I guess it's OK.

[kamikat]

Oh, I didn't know that you were sick. :crosseo:

Do you have a little holy water that you could add to your tea or juice?

M.

Oh, no! I couldn't do that! There are still a few hold overs from Catholicism. The thought of consuming holy water just seems wrong to me.

kamikat

[RobNJ]

Well, As I've said before... anyone who thinks they got sick from either venerating an icon, or receiving Communion.. should consider it a sign from above!! ^_^

[Monica, child of God]

Oh, no! I couldn't do that! There are still a few hold overs from Catholicism. The thought of consuming holy water just seems wrong to me.

Really? They talk about drinking holy water in the Catholic Encyclopedia as an ancient practice in east and west.

In the West similar attestations are made. Gregory of Tours (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07018b.htm) (De gloria confess., c. 82) tells of a recluse named Eusitius who lived in the sixth century and possessed the power of curing quartan fever by giving its victims to drink of water that he had blessed; we might mention many other instances treasured up by this same Gregory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07018b.htm)("De Miraculis S. Martini", II, xxxix; "Mirac. S. Juliani", II, iii, xxv, xxvi; "Liber de Passione S. Juliani"; "Vitae Patrum", c. iv, n. 3 --NewAdvent.org (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07432a.htm)

M.

[Kolya]

Oh, no! I couldn't do that! There are still a few hold overs from Catholicism. The thought of consuming holy water just seems wrong to me.

kamikat

Oh come on Kamikat!:scratch: Don't you keep water from Theophany? What do you do with it? You're suppose to drink it. Drinking holy water is no more "RC" than taking Eucharist or doing confession. It's as Orthodox as Pasha!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Oh come on Kamikat!:scratch: Don't you keep water from Theophany? What do you do with it? You're suppose to drink it. Drinking holy water is no more "RC" than taking Eucharist or doing confession. It's as Orthodox as Pasha!

What do you do with Holy Water from Theophany? You put it in your Holy Water Supersoaker and give the furry parasites a bath in it when they need it! :D

[Kolya]

What do you do with Holy Water from Theophany? You put it in your Holy Water Supersoaker and give the furry parasites a bath in it when they need it! :D

That's one of the things you can do with it.;)

[kamikat]

Oh come on Kamikat!:scratch: Don't you keep water from Theophany? What do you do with it? You're suppose to drink it. Drinking holy water is no more "RC" than taking Eucharist or doing confession. It's as Orthodox as Pasha!


Exactly! I remember getting smacked on the knuckles from Sister Cabrini for trying to drink some holy water. The sisters told us that we were to never drink holy water. It was used only to bless stuff and make the cross. The first time I saw someone drinking the holy water at my Orthodox church, I nearly fainted.

kamikat

[kamikat]

Really? They talk about drinking holy water in the Catholic Encyclopedia as an ancient practice in east and west.

M.

Really?!? That's not what I was taught growing up. Maybe I'll ask in OBOB. I know they've cracked jokes about drinking the holy water.

kamikat

[kamikat]

OK, I asked in OBOB. It seems that the Americans have never heard of drinking Holy Water, but the Europeans say it's not unusual.

kamikat

[She]

Would any of you condone giving holy water to infants to drink? My mother seemed to think that it was safe. But I was told that before the age of one a baby should only drink sterilised water. I was, therefore, unable to leave my babies with my mother for fear of her giving them old water from holy places.

[kamikat]

Would any of you condone giving holy water to infants to drink? My mother seemed to think that it was safe. But I was told that before the age of one a baby should only drink sterilised water. I was, therefore, unable to leave my babies with my mother for fear of her giving them old water from holy places.

I won't speak on the holy water, as I can't imagine drinking it myself. I was told it was sacreligious to drink it. But, I will speak on the sterilized water. Unless you know the water is unsafe for human consumption, any water is fine for babies as long as they do not have compromised immune systems due to illness or prematurity. In fact, depending on the sterilization method, it could be dangerous to give sterilized water to infants. If the water is boiled, the minerals and chemicals added by water treatment get condensed and are stronger in boiled water than straight out of the tap. If the water is safe for you to drink, it is safe for a baby to drink. When my first son was a baby, my doctor said that the American Academy of Pediatrics no longer recommended boiling the water used to make infant formula if treated city water is used. I think it is still recommended to use bottled water instead of well water, but that never applied to me.

kamikat

[ByzantineDixie]

Exactly! I remember getting smacked on the knuckles from Sister Cabrini for trying to drink some holy water. The sisters told us that we were to never drink holy water. It was used only to bless stuff and make the cross. The first time I saw someone drinking the holy water at my Orthodox church, I nearly fainted.

kamikat

Ya, I had the same instruction growing up. It was a bit unusual to me at first...but it didn't take long for me to get over my past understandings after Father explained the practice to me from an Orthodox perspective. (My priest was brought up Roman Catholic so he is personally aware of the things that may send up red flags for inquirers from the RC.)

My husband, the diehard Lutheran, actually thinks the practice makes sense after he heard Father explain it, although he will not join me in drinking.

We had a situation in town where an indigent man used to go to the Catholic church and drink the holy water there. The Catholics were horrified by this. The police had to get involved and issue a restraining order. I thought that the individual might have been mentally unbalanced but then I learned of the Orthodox tradition and it made me think perhaps the man was brought up Orthodox. Now that I read that Catholics in Europe are more familiar with this practice...it occurs to me the man might have European Catholic roots instead.

[ThePilgrim]

Oh, no! I couldn't do that! There are still a few hold overs from Catholicism. The thought of consuming holy water just seems wrong to me.

kamikat
Byzantine Catholics, and from what I've heard, some Irish Catholics do it.

[Matrona]

If I were Roman Catholic I don't think I'd want to drink from the font that everybody puts their hand in to cross themselves. :) So many people don't wash their hands after going potty... :eek:

[choirfiend]

Additional question concerning kissing icons:

When I went to DL last week, I did notice that most who kissed the icons kissed their hand and touched the icon and then kissed their hand again (at least I think that this was the procedure), but when it came to venerating the cross at the end, it was a lip kiss on the cross.

Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method? Is it only in certain traditions?

People may also do this when it is a "true" painted icon, instead of the reproductions many churches have, to prevent damage to the paint. People may also kiss the edges/border, or even give it an air kiss. I do some variation when venerating "real" icons often because I want it to stay as beautiful as possible for as long as possible.

[Happy Orthodox]

I was told it was sacreligious to drink it.

:confused: :eek: :doh: Isn't Eucharist too sacreligious to take it???!!! Men, those guys! We are SUPPOSED to drink the holy water!!! It's our protection from the evil things that this world has scads and scads of! I've never heard of such a thing! IS OUTRAGE!!! :mad:


About kissing the icons. In my most humble opinion, when we're kissing icons, we're not supposed to think about who's kissed the board before us, but offer a sweet incence of prayer to the saint or Christ!

[kamikat]

:confused: :eek: :doh: Isn't Eucharist too sacreligious to take it???!!! Men, those guys! We are SUPPOSED to drink the holy water!!! It's our protection from the evil things that this world has scads and scads of! I've never heard of such a thing! IS OUTRAGE!!! :mad:


Catholics just use it in a different way. They dip their finger into it before making the sign of the cross, as a remberance of their baptism.

kamikat

[Monica, child of God]

Catholics just use it in a different way. They dip their finger into it before making the sign of the cross, as a remberance of their baptism.

kamikat

I do something similar: In my iconless corner I have a small earthenware container with a lid that I keep holy water in. Before my son and I leave the house or when we are coming in or whenever I need to, I dip my finger in the water and make the sign of the cross on our foreheads. I also do it to my son when he's after he's been corrected and repented for something too.

M.

[Monica, child of God]

Do Orthodox ever have holy water fonts in their homes? I wouldn't personally because I don't want to have it evaporating, but I was just wondering.

M.

[Petronius]

This would worry me to.

Is it also true that you all receive Holy Communion on a spoon? Is it the same spoon?

Yes, it is treu. Keep out !

[Petronius]

I am not sure what the norm is, but yes I venerate icons when I am sick. Icons are a sacred meeting place between God and the saints and man, and as such I would especially encourage those who are ill to venerate them. I doubt anyone ever got sick from venerating an icon that had been venerated by a sick person.

ou are so right , Micheal !!!

My father, a doctor, used to work for many years in the Public Health Administration, in an Orthodox country. They had never any epidemy started from there or just from many people gathered together in churches.
There are no records along the whole period since Public Health Administration exists in Orthodox countries or in ever other Christian country, where sacraments were administered with common objects and in ways that otherways would be considered as classical ways for widespreading of diseases, that any epidemy started from there. I think that this is a fact to be remebered by Christians, and present this to Atheists, when they are disconsidering or denying sacraments and miracles.
It is tested. They will try a lot of explanations,but will not be able to explain why it can start in a restaurant , but not in a Church.

[Petronius]

Do Orthodox ever have holy water fonts in their homes? I wouldn't personally because I don't want to have it evaporating, but I was just wondering.

M.
Orthodox have Holy water in bottles when the water is blessed at specific feasts and drink a bit together with adoron (you call it like this ?) every morning after they wake up and wash their faces, cross and eventualy say their morning prayers, before the breakfest.

Never heard of a fontana in any traditional Orthodox country.