My 1st questions on Orthodoxy

[NHB_MMA]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am "Ortho-curious" so I figured I might as well begin today the long process of drilling you all with questions (some will inevitably be hard ones) in testing the faith to see if it's for me.

1st question

Does the Orthodox Church teach that IT is the one and only true way of salvation? In other words, are my Nazarene parents, Methodist cousins, Catholic aunts, Pentacostal cousins, and Baptist aunt & uncle hopelessly lost according to the teachings of the Orthodox Church? I know the RCC has a similar teaching, but not that only Catholics will go to Heaven, but that is often misunderstood by those that debate with them.

2nd question

If a person leaves the Orthodox Church for another Christian congregation, is it the teaching of the OC that he is lost for doing so? This, from what I understand, is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church.

[kamikat]

.
Does the Orthodox Church teach that IT is the one and only true way of salvation? In other words, are my Nazarene parents, Methodist cousins, Catholic aunts, Pentacostal cousins, and Baptist aunt & uncle hopelessly lost according to the teachings of the Orthodox Church?
.

We all have the hope of salvation. By limiting who is saved, we put limits on God. God will save who He chooses to have mercy on.


kamikat

[Philip]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am "Ortho-curious" so I figured I might as well begin today the long process of drilling you all with questions (some will inevitably be hard ones) in testing the faith to see if it's for me.


Welcome to TAW.



1st question

Does the Orthodox Church teach that IT is the one and only true way of salvation?

We believe that the Church preserves the fullness of the Christian faith. We do not place limits on how God will show mercy.

In other words, are my Nazarene parents, Methodist cousins, Catholic aunts, Pentacostal cousins, and Baptist aunt & uncle hopelessly lost according to the teachings of the Orthodox Church?

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy. It is presumptuous of us to pretend to know how He will judge.


2nd question

If a person leaves the Orthodox Church for another Christian congregation, is it the teaching of the OC that he is lost for doing so?

No.



:eek: I was able to answer without saying, 'Ask a priest.' :eek:

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I believe the answer to both your questions can be best summed up like this:

We know where God's grace is, we don't know where it is not. None of us know who will or will not be saved. Only God knows. While the Orthodox Church does teach that she is the One, True, Church, and that it does provide the tools to achieve salvation, it does not teach that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Hope this helps...

Maureen

[HandmaidenOfGod]

LOL, it's such a shame a person has to wait so long for an answer around here!

[choirfiend]

Maureen--
it's more accurate to say that there is no salvation outside of the Church (just as there is no salvation without Christ) but that there are people who may be part of the Church while never even encountering the body of the Church here on earth (just like people who have never heard of Christ may yet be saved by Him.)

[HandmaidenOfGod]

:eek: I was able to answer without saying, 'Ask a priest.' :eek:

Is Outrage! lol ^_^

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Maureen--
it's more accurate to say that there is no salvation outside of the Church (just as there is no salvation without Christ) but that there are people who may be part of the Church while never even encountering the body of the Church here on earth (just like people who have never heard of Christ may yet be saved by Him.)

c'est vrai.

Merci :)

[Khaleas]

Hey that's a new term 'Ortho-curious' :thumbsup:

Just wanted to say Welcome to TAW!! :wave:

[Eusebios]

Others have answered the question and done a nice job, so I have nothing to add in that respect. I did want to say welcome to TAW :wave: and bring the questions on. We enjoy answering those we can, and local Orthodox priests generally enjoy answering those we cannot!
Christ is risen!
Eusebios
:bow:

[Dust and Ashes]

Welcome to TAW!

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Welcome to TAW!

I think your questions have been answered well...

Forgive me...

[Michael the Iconographer]

I believe the answer to both your questions can be best summed up like this:

We know where God's grace is, we don't know where it is not. None of us know who will or will not be saved. Only God knows. While the Orthodox Church does teach that she is the One, True, Church, and that it does provide the tools to achieve salvation, it does not teach that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

Hope this helps...

Maureen

Very well said.

[Akathist]

Welcome to TAW.

If there are any questions you want to ask privatly for any reason, pm me. I might not know the answer, but I have a huge bookmark list and might have a link to a possible answer.

[Prawnik]

NHB_NMA (hope I got that right), welcome to TAW!

As a general rule of Orthodox ethics, the reason why a person does an act is more important than the act itself. 1 Timothy 1:13.

[Prawnik]

dubblepost

[vanshan]

I've heard the answer, that was already given, from many Orthodox sources, so I believe it is the mind of the Orthodox Church that we know where the fulness of God exists, but cannot judge or limit God by saying there is no salvation outside His Church. We do believe all people should be part of the one unified Body He created for us, but He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. Pray for the salvation of all your relatives, but seek to enter the Church, because it is the ark of salvation for mankind--this is what it was created to be. To refuse to do this, is to selfishly seek to serve God according to our own will, rather than submitting to His. This constitutes testing His mercy, which is not appropriate. We must not seek to save our own lives, by serving him according to our desires, but we should selflessly die to our will, yielding to His. This is Christ's commandment. If we seek our individuality, we will perish in our prideful disregard for God. Each will be judged according to what he or she has been given. To whom much is given, much is required. That's why the monastics in the Church often state that they will be judged most stingently, because they are blessed to live the life of angels in this life-- so if they remain slaves to sin, they will be judged more harshly than those whose cares are more tightly tied to worldy concerns. Some have never even heard that there is a universal Church, which has preserved the faith, unchanged. God is merciful and will deal with those in darkness accordingly.

Basil

[Grigorii]

1st question

Does the Orthodox Church teach that IT is the one and only true way of salvation?

Yes. The basic ecclesiology, doctrine of the Church, for Orthodoxy is laid down by St Cyprian of Carthage On the Unity if the Church and St. Basil's 1st and 47th canons.

In other words, are my Nazarene parents, Methodist cousins, Catholic aunts, Pentacostal cousins, and Baptist aunt & uncle hopelessly lost according to the teachings of the Orthodox Church?

No. The Church operates outside here canonical, and even sacramental limits. Imperfectly, but active nonetheless. There is no consistent teaching in Orthodoxy concerning the salvation of non-Orthodox Christians. Some will follow the hard line chosen by Sts. Cyprian, others will follow Sts. Basil and Augustine, yet again others (Local and Ecumenical Councils) are more open to the operation of grace in non-Orthodox circles.

Personally, I think that you need not worry about your non-Orthodox family and friends. Though they will be better off in the Orthodox Church, since the fullness of grace will be available to them there, I believe God is saving them as much as He is saving us. non-Orthodox Christians, are Christians to (most) Orthodox Christians. Only the extreme conservatives will argue against this, but they do not reperesent the Orthodox Church.

2nd question

If a person leaves the Orthodox Church for another Christian congregation, is it the teaching of the OC that he is lost for doing so? This, from what I understand, is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church.

No. Even those anathematized by the Orthodox Church, are not said to be 'lost'. In fact their anathematization is seen as necessary for their salvation. They are rendered to God, because all human resources to keep them in the Christian Communion have failed. The person is given to God's care that ultimately he may be saved. Separation from the Church ios necessary in the case of heresy, for heresy damages the soul and one's relation to God. This is why anathematizations are placed on some people. For the safety of the Christian Communion and for the salvation of the heretic/schismatic.

Upon leaving the Orthodox Church one's relation to God changes, how much it changes depends upon how far one walks away from Him. If one leaves Christianity at all, one cuts of the salvific relation with God. But I doubt this is the case for leaving for another Christian communion. Though I would say that leaving the Orthodox Church certainly damages one's soul and relation to God.

Grigorii

[choirfiend]

Who was it that said, roughly,

"Dont worry about the status of others, for they have a Savior who wishes that all men be saved. Focus on your own salvation..."

[Grigorii]

Who was it that said, roughly,

"Dont worry about the status of others, for they have a Savior who wishes that all men be saved. Focus on your own salvation..."

I think it was one of the desert fathers,..

[NHB_MMA]

I am comfortable with the answers I have received, in regard to my personal interest in Orthodoxy.

On the 1st question

As I think most all of us believe, we don't know for sure who will ultimately be saved and who will not. There are an endless amount of theological schools of thought within Christianity (meaning legitimate Christianity). I suppose it is possible that God will reveal on the day of judgment that only the Mennonites, or only Seventh Day Adventists, or some other organization, etc. truly understood what He wanted from us and only they are worthy of his salvation...but I highly doubt it, especially because those couple of examples are of Protestant denominations that have some considerable differences with other Protestants, let alone the Old Churches. I would like to think that God will show his grace upon all those that sincerely (and I mean that seriously, not lightly) seek Him and subscribe to the fundamental tenants of Christianity, but of course I myself cannot be certainly. To reject an individual for mistakenly interpretting a relatively minor doctrine seems to conflict with the loving nature of God, in my opinion, but I realize that is trying to apply human logic to the nature of God.

On the 2nd question

This is one of the major problems I have with Catholicism. The Catholic Church does teach, from everything I understand, that Catholics who leave the Catholic Church are lost. My problem is that it makes the hierarchy of the Church every bit as infallible, from a doctrinal standpoint, as the Bible itself. I think we would all agree that the Bible is infallible, but man himself is not infallible. There is far less chance that the Orthodox Church could deviate significantly from fundamental beliefs of the faith, IMO, because of the idea of synods versus the papacy. To use an extreme example, suppose I would decide to become a Catholic and some liberal pope would push for gay marriage. I would leave the church immediately. I don't think that particularly example is very likely within the Catholic Church, but the point is to say that one cannot ever leave the Church under any circumstances puts an infallibility on the hierarchy within the Church and I don't think I can accept that.

[NHB_MMA]

Just wanted to bump this up. I am looking for any comments of agreement or disagreement on my perspective above.

[Philip]

I would like to think that God will show his grace upon all those that sincerely (and I mean that seriously, not lightly) seek Him and subscribe to the fundamental tenants of Christianity, but of course I myself cannot be certainly.

I can agree with this.

I think we would all agree that the Bible is infallible, but man himself is not infallible.

It depends on what you mean by 'infalliable'. The Scriptures must be interpretated correctly to be of any use.

There is far less chance that the Orthodox Church could deviate significantly from fundamental beliefs of the faith, IMO, because of the idea of synods versus the papacy.

This is one of the mistakes (and perhaps the root of all their mistakes) of Catholicism. It is not the duty of one man, peasant or pope, to interpret the Scriptures. The correct understanding has already been given to the Church as one Body.

[NHB_MMA]

It depends on what you mean by 'infalliable'. The Scriptures must be interpretated correctly to be of any use.

I pretty much agree with that. I do think there are some misguided denominations out there that have misinterpreted certainly portions of Scripture, but not major doctrines to the point where they would not warrant inclusion in the Christian faith. Of course, I guess pretty much every denomination would agree with that statement if they're a denomination that beliefs others will inherit the Kingdom with them.

This is one of the mistakes (and perhaps the root of all their mistakes) of Catholicism. It is not the duty of one man, peasant or pope, to interpret the Scriptures. The correct understanding has already been given to the Church as one Body.

I have tremendous respect for Catholicism as a faith, but I just don't think I can personally accept it for myself. There have been proven papal errors and I don't know to what degree it is all binding on Catholic believers, but one can (in the worst case scenario) get dangerously close to an end-around form of idolatry. With the lack of the papacy, I am far more comfortable with what I find in Orthodoxy.

[Happy Orthodox]

Just remember, Orthodoxy is not Catholicism without a Pope. Its very different. But don't get me started here. I'll get kicked out of the forum... :scratch:

[NHB_MMA]

Just remember, Orthodoxy is not Catholicism without a Pope. Its very different. But don't get me started here. I'll get kicked out of the forum... :scratch:

I am aware that there are many differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I know it goes far beyond "their priests can marry", as one of my Catholic friends that knew nothing of Orthodoxy once said. One site I visited at work listed over 50 differences, if I'm not mistaken.

But my objection I talked about earlier expressed the logical result of the papacy, in comparison to the Orthodox Church. Catholicism takes a very hardline view with no room for your individual belief on a number of things. As an example, because I cannot agree with the reasoning on birth control, I am not even eligible to convert to Catholicism. I myself find that pretty ironic. I remember watching the funeral coverage of Pope John Paul II and hearing some Catholics talk about how they hoped for a more liberal pope that would allow contraceptives. I find it funny that apparently the RCC has Cardinals that would rubber-stamp it, had they been voted in as Pope, but I can't even be confirmed.

[gzt]

I think you're wrong about that being a real obstacle to reception into Catholicism - but this really isn't the place to discuss it.

[OIT]

On the 2nd question

This is one of the major problems I have with Catholicism. The Catholic Church does teach, from everything I understand, that Catholics who leave the Catholic Church are lost.

Orthodoxy teaches the same. It is also said that it is better for one to have never converted to Orthodoxy than to convert to Orthodoxy and then leave it. Now, can we as people here judge those who left the faith? No, God may act in His mercy, but the point is to show the gravity of leaving the Faith.

[NHB_MMA]

I think you're wrong about that being a real obstacle to reception into Catholicism - but this really isn't the place to discuss it.

My old college roommate converted to Catholicism and we discussed many things, including this issue. He said that one must accept all teachings on marriage and family including this for confirmation. Now, clearly many Catholics disagree with this teaching, but I would bet many of them made their confirmation in their teen years, as they were likely born into a Catholic family.

Anyway, it is one issue of several I have with Catholicism and I were really interested in Catholicism I would talk more about it in the Catholic forum.

[NHB_MMA]

Orthodoxy teaches the same. It is also said that it is better for one to have never converted to Orthodoxy than to convert to Orthodoxy and then leave it. Now, can we as people here judge those who left the faith? No, God may act in His mercy, but the point is to show the gravity of leaving the Faith.

I can understand the OC teaching the gravity of leaving the OC. I can understand teaching that it would have been better to have never converted to Orthodoxy than to convert and leave it, but surely it would be better to opt for another form of Christianity than outright apostacy, right? At least within Christianity, there is hope God will show His grace.

[Akathist]

I can understand the OC teaching the gravity of leaving the OC. I can understand teaching that it would have been better to have never converted to Orthodoxy than to convert and leave it, but surely it would be better to opt for another form of Christianity than outright apostacy, right? At least within Christianity, there is hope God will show His grace.

It is possible that even outside of Christianity, God will show His grace.

Orthodoxy has the fullness of the faith. To leave it means to give up on the fullness. That does not mean there is not light found elsewhere, albiet not as bright.