Is there a Link?

[SonWorshipper]

Between the rise of Messianic Believers and the end times? How do you see a connection?

[Charles YTK]

In Revelation 12:17 and other places it describes the true believers in the last days as group who is severly persecuted by Satan, and they are known by these two attributes, "They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah." They do both.

Charles YTK

[SonWorshipper]

Yes, I have been trying to tell others of that exact prophecy. Do you believe that it means those believers in Yeshua as Messiah that follow the 10 commandments and keep Kosher ~ Jew and Gentile both?

I think this is the Bride, and they are special , then there are the guests. I think that the bride will be the ones that inhabit the new jerusalem and the guests will be those nations that need the healing of the leaves of the tree of life.

Thoughts?

[Charles YTK]

I believe you and I pretty much agree from what you said. In Zechariah, we see that it is the actual survivors of the nations whose armies come again Jerusalem who will enhabit the earth and who will be required to come up for the feast of Tabernacles each year.

In Matt 25 we also see that the Judgement of those people is based on their behavior toward others, and not their confession of profession of faith. Those who are blood washed are in New Jerusalem and can be seen serving God before the throne at the time of the sixth seal. This harvest after the sixth seal according to the Lord in Matt 24 comes right after the sun and moon are darkened, which is the same event. Matthew 24 is the outline for the revelation.

Charles YTK

[aggie03]

The end times - what do you mean when you say this? There are so many different ways to look at that phrase. Are you referring to a "rapture" where people suddenly disappear? Are you referring to an earthly kingdom that will established? Just wanting a little clarification before I comment on anything.

[SonWorshipper]

The End times, the world as we know it, the 70th week in Daniel. The time of the Gentiles being fulfilled and then the spotlight is back on Israel again when the Lord shall open their eyes and their hearts shall turn towards him and all Israel will be saved.

[aggie03]

Have you ever thought about this - that Israel is used two different ways. Israel is used in the Old Testament to denote the Jewish people, specifically because they are the people of God. In the New Covenant, there is no distinction between any race or culture, that is, you don't have to become a Jew to be one of God's children. In the Old Testament you had to become a Jew. This is something that I just heard about the other day and was wondering your thoughts on it, or if you had ever heard anything similar to it before. I haven't had much time to study it yet.

You mentioned the book of Daniel when you're talking about the time of the Gentiles. Could you elaborate a little more on that for me, I'm not familiar with what you're talking about. Thanks! Hope you're having a great day!

[SonWorshipper]

The time of the gentiles I believe is the time for them to come to know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Before that 99.9% of the world was heather, worshipping pagan gods.

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled..." (Luke 21:24)

Jerusalem at present is still being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles in my opinion, the Temple mount dispite the fact it was taken in the 6 day war was handed back over to the Palestinians and they have control to this day.

[SonWorshipper]

Charles you said:In Revelation 12:17 and other places it describes the true believers in the last days as group who is severly persecuted by Satan, and they are known by these two attributes, "They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah." They do both.

Charles YTK


Do you think this only applies to Messianic Jews or Gentiles also that are Messianic Believers?

[Flavius]

The time of the gentiles I believe is the time for them to come to know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Before that 99.9% of the world was heather, worshipping pagan gods.

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled..." (Luke 21:24)

Jerusalem at present is still being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles in my opinion, the Temple mount dispite the fact it was taken in the 6 day war was handed back over to the Palestinians and they have control to this day.

I will bend the bow of Judah and fill it with the arrow of Ephraim. Isaiah 56 I believe.Meaning Hashem will use gentile christians to fight alongside of Judah.

When general Allenby of the British took Berrsheba in 1517.The new muslim coins had the date 1335 stamped on them

[Toney]

I will bend the bow of Judah and fill it with the arrow of Ephraim. Isaiah 56 I believe.Meaning Hashem will use gentile christians to fight alongside of Judah.

When general Allenby of the British took Berrsheba in 1517.The new muslim coins had the date 1335 stamped on them

You meant 1917, right?

[visionary]

Yes, I have been trying to tell others of that exact prophecy. Do you believe that it means those believers in Yeshua as Messiah that follow the 10 commandments and keep Kosher ~ Jew and Gentile both?

I think this is the Bride, and they are special , then there are the guests. I think that the bride will be the ones that inhabit the new jerusalem and the guests will be those nations that need the healing of the leaves of the tree of life.

Thoughts?

Events in order Taken from the conversation that Yeshua had with the desciples regarding the end of time. I pick up His thread of conversation at "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt 24:13

"Preaching of the gospel to all nations." which we know is pretty close to completion...depending of whose definition.

Abomination of Desolation...which Yeshua wants us to understand for it is the signal to flee....I think that 70AD is an example of what we are to look for...the believers then saw the signal and fleed...likewise the same signal shall be ours to flee...It will be the Mark of the Beast...You can not buy or sell unless you have this mark.

Things that are interesting about the believers at this time...144,000 can learn the new song that is sung before the throne because they were redeemed from the earth. Why were they redeemed.. because they were not defiled...as in never worshipped no other than the Father, through the blood of Yeshua (perfect)(virgins). They follow the lamb wheresoever he goeth...following the Word, in the light of the Holy Spirit so that they can be where God wants them. There was no fault found by God with what they say. SO what time in history are they...before the four angels on the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of strife, from being let loose. Which means it is before the time of trouble. They receive the seal of the living God.

"for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be." which we know has not yet happened.

Please note that God then shows.. the great multitude that no man can number...which one of the elders says, regarding the great multitude, those came out of the great tribulation. These are the people that because of the GREAT TRIBULATION come out for God. So why did they.?

Two Witnesses are on the scene preaching, standing before this world like Moses before the Pharoah. The Pharoah (Egypt/Babylon/Rome that which representative of the false god) ( the great imitation of Yeshua MAtt 24:24)....at this point we can truly say that the curtain is up. All the characters are on stage. "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." In other words, things get really rough.

How rough you ask....well it is like asking how long? Psalm 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long. Psalm 74:10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? Psalm 94:3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? Psalm 94:4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves? Then God answers Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate.... Is that the end of the 1260 instead of the 1290 as in "shortened" spoke of in Daniel? This is the time of the trumpets....bringing the multitude to their knees before God, or in defiance of God forever.

This is the feast of trumpets to the believers. As someone has pointed out, the seven trumpets are the seven covenants which unite all believers, the seven messages of God to the churches now harmonize, the book of Revelation is now an open book to the believers. It is sweet to eat, and bitter to the stomach.

Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein....Day of Atonement... marriage....united with Jesus in the sanctuary forever, the believers are before the Lord serving him day and night in His temple and "he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them" Rev 7:15-17

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city they tread underfoot forty and two months....Obviously not listening to the two witnesses but joining with the great impersonator of Yeshua in defileling the truth. "full of abominations, filthiness of her fornications...drunk with the blood of saints"

It is immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days that the signs of the sky appear. NOT BEFORE.....After tribulation I believe that the plagues fall upon the people.

Then Our God whom we serve shall return to take us home with him, then shall the last trump be sounded, for it is the Feast of Ingathering.

So let me stop here with this ""And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." Romans 13:11

Visionary

[visionary]

Oh... I forgot to mention the seven seals are with the seven trumpets because of the seven messages have that effect upon the people of God and because they are the seven covenants that God has with His people.

[TasManOfGod]

Oh... I forgot to mention the seven seals are with the seven trumpets because of the seven messages have that effect upon the people of God and because they are the seven covenants that God has with His people.Perhaps I might help you "unravel" some of those terms. Have you considered that the 7 "seals" are actually the people of the 7 covenents and these are "called" individually by the sounding of the 7 trumpets. There is a one of each of the 7 "feasts" following each one. The seven covenants are also represented by a lamp of the "menorah" as well as the 7 "assemblies" (churches) and are overseen by one of the 7 angels.
The vials are not punishment as such but rather an encouragement not to miss out when God again calls "Hs people"

[visionary]

Perhaps I might help you "unravel" some of those terms. Have you considered that the 7 "seals" are actually the people of the 7 covenents and these are "called" by the sounding of the 7 trumpets. There is a one of each of the 7 "feasts" following each one. The seven covenants are also represented by a lamp of the "menorah" as well as the 7 "assemblies" (churches) and are overseen by one of the 7 angels.
The vials are not punishment as such but rather an encouragement not to miss out when God again calls "Hs people"

The seven vials are after the followers of God are sealed, 144,000 before the GREAT TRIBULATION, and the great multitude after the tribulation. There are no more individuals who would switch sides at this point.....the wheat and chaff are truly separated by their own choosing...what is done is done..."Go your ways and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." Rev 16:1 verse 9 "and they repented not to give Him glory." verse 11 "and repented not of their deeds" verse 21 " and men blasphemed God because of the plague" From that point on when God has the vials poured out, those that are sealed will be covered until He returns and the plagues will not harm them. But for those that do not have the living seal of God, they are plagued like the Egyptians in Moses time....there is no true repentence, and there is no change in actions, and the most you get out of these people are cursing towards God and His people.

[TasManOfGod]

The seven vials are after the followers of God are sealed, 144,000 before the GREAT TRIBULATION, and the great multitude after the tribulation. There are no more individuals who would switch sides at this point.....the wheat and chaff are truly separated by their own choosing...what is done is done..."Go your ways and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." Rev 16:1 verse 9 "and they repented not to give Him glory." verse 11 "and repented not of their deeds" verse 21 " and men blasphemed God because of the plague" From that point on when God has the vials poured out, those that are sealed will be covered until He returns and the plagues will not harm them. But for those that do not have the living seal of God, they are plagued like the Egyptians in Moses time....there is no true repentence, and there is no change in actions, and the most you get out of these people are cursing towards God and His people.Perhaps I am wrong but what I do is this:
As soon as I see a "seven" I think "one of the seven" so how does it fit with the rest. Now doing this I have come to the conclusion that revelation is not in chronological order as most other commentaries suggest.
Maybe it is quite logical when you think of it like this : If you went on vacation and telling somebody about it you wouldn't (well necessarilly) relate it in order of how you did things. More likely at one particular time you might tell of the places you saw and then at another time you would tell of what you ate. It is the most natural way for us to do it so why not God.
So what we have to do is to well sort of "cut and paste" revelation so you get the whole story actually in chronological order.
Do you see where I am coming from?

[visionary]

Perhaps I might help you "unravel" some of those terms. Have you considered that the 7 "seals" are actually the people of the 7 covenents and these are "called" individually by the sounding of the 7 trumpets. There is a one of each of the 7 "feasts" following each one. The seven covenants are also represented by a lamp of the "menorah" as well as the 7 "assemblies" (churches) and are overseen by one of the 7 angels.
The vials are not punishment as such but rather an encouragement not to miss out when God again calls "Hs people"

The seven trumpets are the seven last calls that God makes to the inhabitants of earth....the two witnesses testify, preach, and exhort the world to repentence with samples of the plagues to authenticate the truthfulness of their statements.

Many have stated that in the spirit of Elijah and Moses ....(.two that stood in the face of the false gods of their day and challenged them.)....We will have that in the last generation....when Satan himself will do the great imitation of Yeshua to fool the entire world and there will stand up before Satan the two witnesses who will have the power from on High to meet this challenge in the and in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.Rev 10:7 and the two witnesses are then killed and ressurrected three days later.

Take a look at the dove tailing from Rev 9:11 "angel of the bottomless pit" appearance "king over them" to "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them" Rev 11:7

[TasManOfGod]

The seven trumpets are the seven last calls that God makes to the inhabitants of earth....the two witnesses testify, preach, and exhort the world to repentence with samples of the plagues to authenticate the truthfulness of their statements.

Many have stated that in the spirit of Elijah and Moses ....(.two that stood in the face of the false gods of their day and challenged them.)....We will have that in the last generation....when Satan himself will do the great imitation of Yeshua to fool the entire world and there will stand up before Satan the two witnesses who will have the power from on High to meet this challenge in the and in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.Rev 10:7 and the two witnesses are then killed and ressurrected three days later.

Take a look at the dove tailing from Rev 9:11 "angel of the bottomless pit" appearance "king over them" to "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them" Rev 11:7If you were to see that Revelation is God's final dealings with His covenant people and that these are represented by the "lampstand" (menorah) then the "two witnesses " being two lampstand and olive trees means to me that they are not two individuals but rather two covenants. My reasoning then tells me that they are the covenant people of Isaac and Jacob

[visionary]

Perhaps I am wrong but what I do is this:
As soon as I see a "seven" I think "one of the seven" so how does it fit with the rest. Now doing this I have come to the conclusion that revelation is not in chronological order as most other commentaries suggest.
Maybe it is quite logical when you think of it like this : If you went on vacation and telling somebody about it you wouldn't (well necessarilly) relate it in order of how you did things. More likely at one particular time you might tell of the places you saw and then at another time you would tell of what you ate. It is the most natural way for us to do it so why not God.
So what we have to do is to well sort of "cut and paste" revelation so you get the whole story actually in chronological order.
Do you see where I am coming from?

If it would help, pretend that you are John the Baptist, receiving the revelation, and God is talking to you....pointing out this and that...Pointing out what is happening to God's people..and then pointing out what is happening in the world..pointing out the three D image from different aspect so that your finite mind can grasp the dynamics. If you have ever tried to juggle balls, and then as you are doing so, discribe how you are doing it and where each are in relationship to the other....you would have to freeze frame the most important points and reveiw what the left hand is doing verse the right.

[visionary]

If you were to see that Revelation is God's final dealings with His covenant people and that these are represented by the "lampstand" (menorah) then the "two witnesses " being two lampstand and olive trees means to me that they are not two individuals but rather two covenants. My reasoning then tells me that they are the covenant people of Isaac and Jacob

Prophesy states as does Yeshua that it is the spirit of Elijah, like it was in John the Baptist for both the great which is the first time and dreadful which is the second coming.

[visionary]

If you were to see that Revelation is God's final dealings with His covenant people and that these are represented by the "lampstand" (menorah) then the "two witnesses " being two lampstand and olive trees means to me that they are not two individuals but rather two covenants. My reasoning then tells me that they are the covenant people of Isaac and Jacob

Prophesy states as does Yeshua that it is the spirit of Elijah, like it was in John the Baptist for "the great" which is the first time and "dreadful" which is the second coming.
Is 61:1,2....read by Yeshua in Luke 4:18-19
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yeshua goes on to explain in Luke 4:24-27. and what Yeshua thinks of John, the Baptist....Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Matthew 17:12,13 And Yeshua answered and said unto them....Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Luke 11:14

Yeshua has answered the question regarding the Elijah of prophecy. By the same spirit, prophecy was fulfilled by a man in the first coming of Elijah for the "great" so also will it be that the "dreadful" that we have a man in the spirit of Elijah speaking to the world denouncing the gods of this world and giving the world its last chance to worship the true God of Israel. By that same token, it follows that these two witnesses have the same task before them. They have to denounce the gods of this world, and call for repentence and worship of the true God of Israel, the true God who created us all.

[Flavius]

You meant 1917, right?
Yup 1917 Is when General Allenby took back Israel after the muslims had it for 1335 years or more recently 1517 when the ottomon Took it lasting 400 years until Allenby got it back from the Turks

[visionary]

Charles you said:In Revelation 12:17 and other places it describes the true believers in the last days as group who is severly persecuted by Satan, and they are known by these two attributes, "They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah." They do both.

Charles YTK


Do you think this only applies to Messianic Jews or Gentiles also that are Messianic Believers?

At this point in history is they that keep the commandments of God, the Father, and have the testimony of Yeshua, the Messiah.

Visionary