Christians who wish to worship with (as) Jews

[vegan]

I have a question for seasoned Messianics - is it proper for a gentile to either seek out Messianic congregations to worship Yeshua or to worship using traditional Jewish prayers (for example: the Shema)?

I once considered myself B'nai Noach, studied Judaism, and even participated in Shabbos services passing myself off as a Jew.

Thank you for your help.

[Pray4Isrel]

You might not want to hear my perspective since I am not Jewish but I'll share it with you. :)
I am a gentile. I go to Messianic Synagogue and also church on Sunday. I am a firm believer in understanding the Jewish roots of the faith. I am grafted in as the Bible says. I don't try to pass myself off as a Jew but I have a heart for my jewish brothers and sisters. I have been to Israel a couple times to study and to do missionary work.
I also celebrate Passover because of the wonderful picture of atonement through Yeshua that it represents.
I know that the book of Romans speaks of Jew and Gentile worshiping together. I see nothing wrong with being unified as believers whether Jew or Gentile. I do not try to be something I am not but rather try to understand part of who I am.
God Bless!

[vegan]

Let me explain what I meant by "passing myself off as a Jew." I didnt go with glue-on payos! WHat I meant was that I said all the prayers (I dont think, according to orthodox judaism, goyim are allowed to say "the God of our Fathers." As a Christian, I would argue that Avraham, Yitzoc, and Yackov are our SPIRITUAL fathers). Also, I wore a tallis, which is reserved only for Jews.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[dignitized]

why would a person who knows Jesus Christ as the Messiah who has the gift of the covenant of grace want to live in bondage to the law?? Yes we should know our roots bu she must also know our stem, our branches our leaves and our fruit.

I - unlike most who are posting here in this form - by the LAW of the Torah a JEW. What more I am a Jew who's liniage is of the tribe of Levi. Does this benefit me in the eyes of GOD? NOPE.

[Pray4Isrel]

Br.Max,
It was really just an honest question. I don't think anyone's been pointing fingers. We all need to feel like we can speak of our views without it being taken out of context.

Deep breath, friend :)

[dignitized]

pray4: with YOU I know this to be true. However with others here who have posted such foolishness as the Rich Rhives muck, I find their approach to those of us who disgree with them to be quite hostile. They base their beliefs upon the wrtings of one man who has no historic basis for his claims and refuse the historic evidences offered against the man. *sigh*

[vegan]

Broter Max - I was simply asking a question. I know nothing of this book or Rich Rives. All I know is that I enjoyed the beautiful prayers Jews would say.... I am thinking especially about the very intense way many Jews say the S'hma. I often will recite "Shema, Yisroel, Hashem, Elohainu, Hashem Echad" and simply wanted to know how other Messianics and Christians use the beautiful Hebrew prayers to worship Christ.

Thanks.

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by vegan
Broter Max - I was simply asking a question. I know nothing of this book or Rich Rives. All I know is that I enjoyed the beautiful prayers Jews would say.... I am thinking especially about the very intense way many Jews say the S'hma. I often will recite "Shema, Yisroel, Hashem, Elohainu, Hashem Echad" and simply wanted to know how other Messianics and Christians use the beautiful Hebrew prayers to worship Christ.

Thanks.

Shalom, vegan!

I too appreciate saying the Shema on Shabbat.  It is very beautiful and reminds us of God's position.  I find it to be very magnifying to the Lord when said in unity with others. 

[vegan]

Originally posted by Pray4Isrel
Shalom, vegan!

I too appreciate saying the Shema on Shabbat.  It is very beautiful and reminds us of God's position.  I find it to be very magnifying to the Lord when said in unity with others. 

I wish there was a messianic shul close to where I live.  I would probably still worship at the Baptist CHurch, but it would be nice to drop in for a bit of "davening" on Shabbos!

[Noa]

Originally posted by vegan
I have a question for seasoned Messianics - is it proper for a gentile to either seek out Messianic congregations to worship Yeshua or to worship using traditional Jewish prayers (for example: the Shema)?

I once considered myself B'nai Noach, studied Judaism, and even participated in Shabbos services passing myself off as a Jew.

Thank you for your help.

I think you have to do what you think Yeshua wants you to do. But there is one danger when Christians are behaving like Jews... overhere (The Netherlands) some of those Christians call themseleves ´Spiritual Israël/Jews/Israëlites´ and for me that is blasphemy. Why? Because they won´t exept G´ds Plan with the ´real´Israëlites.

Shalom!

Noa

[dignitized]

vegan: :) I pray in my native tongue. God is multi lingual :) I don't need to pray the any prayer in any specific language :D

[dignitized]

Its sad that Christians of Jewish lineage are made to feel terrible for being Christians and not Judaizers. Being told that we have been corrupted - in effect that we are not of God. I have no problem with messianic believers worshiping God as they see fit. The problem is when they try to tell me that their way is the ONLY way.

[Noa]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Its sad that Christians of Jewish lineage are made to feel terrible for being Christians and not Judaizers. Being told that we have been corrupted - in effect that we are not of God. I have no problem with messianic believers worshiping God as they see fit. The problem is when they try to tell me that their way is the ONLY way.

I have, like I told, no problem at all when Christians want to live a messianic life-style. It is good. BUT there is a danger that becausse of this life-style, the real messianic Jews won´t be taken seriously. And also... the orthodontics Jews will make no difference between messianic Christians and - Jews and that hurts!

Sabbath Shalom!

Noa

[NOTso angry-amy]

i am sure that noone really wants to hear this story, but i am going to tell you anyway.

when in school i knew this guy. he was of russian lineage but from vermont. in high school, he studdies russian and eventually changed his name to something russian.fine, to each their own.

turns out that he went to my church. he would stand in the middle of the church wearing a tallis, and during quiet prayer, he would chant in hebrew (rather distractingly). he wasnt jewish by law or by faith. 100% farm-bred christian.

IT DROVE ME INSANE! he was not jewish. i was raised to believe that the tallis was only something that jewish adults (having gone through a bar/bat mitvah) were allowed to wear. IT OFFENDED ME DEEPLY THAT HE WOULD WEAR SOMETHING SACRED TO ME. (plus he screw up the blessings over it and would let it touch the floor, but that is beside the point.) He butchered the hebrew too. it drove me crazy.

am not sure where i am going with this, but maybe i just wanted to share so that i finally be called a bumbling fool.:scratch:

[NOTso angry-amy]

orthodontics Jews = jews who study orthodontic medicine.

[MissytheButterfly]

I think it's a lack of understanding that Christians have of Messianics that make them feel intimidated or like Messianics are saying that you cannot be right if you don't do what we do.

Messianics are not saying that at all. Basically all Messianics do differently is that they believe in celebrating the holidays as listed in the bible rather than the pagan origin holidays of the Christian faith. And they embrace the Jewish hertiage in worshipping God.

Messianic congregations are FILLED with non-jewish people (Gentiles) and they welcome them with open arms. Gentiles that attend Messianic congregations are not limited to "following the law". Gentiles do have a choice..obviously because the bible says they do.

One can be a Christian and Be a Messianic at the same time. The basic definition of Christian is one that follows Jesus or Yeshua. So Messianics do that and so do Christians..so there really isn't a big difference except the rituals that are used for the most part..such as Messianics go to synaguoge on Sat. instead of Sunday like Christians.

Personally, I think it is possible to get along with eachother as long as everyone realizes we ALL have the same goal..and that is to live by grace through faith in Jesus (Yeshua). We are called to live in peace..and the bible says "let no divisions be among you".

Missy

[dignitized]

Missy, It has been demonstrated and shown that the Christian holidays are NOT pagan in origins. They may share dates accidentally and on purpose with pagan feast but they ARE NOT in themselves pagan. If you care to discuss this issue, I am more than willing to refute the lies which claim that Christian holy days are pagan in origins. I have done it before and will continue so to do.

Pax et bonum.

[MissytheButterfly]

BR.MAX, no thanks I have my evidence from being friends while in college with Pagans and also reading several pagan and christian books that I own. I have my personal opinion and it won't change..so a discussion would be fruitless. If you feel the need to refute something..that's your choice but it's not neccessary with me. I am fully persuaded in my own mind.

Take care,
Missy

[vegan]

But Missy, you are not stating opinions. You are boldly stating that Christian holidays have their roots in pegan holidays. THat is not an opinion. You are stating that as fact. This isnt "trying to get along" as you call for in your post.

It is true that some of the holidays take place during certain pegan holidays, but that does not make it pegan. How could Christ's birth be based on peganism? THat is what I am celebrating in 3 days (with my family, Baruch HaShem). NOt some Winter festival rooted in druidism.

[dignitized]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
BR.MAX, no thanks I have my evidence from being friends while in college with Pagans and also reading several pagan and christian books that I own. I have my personal opinion and it won't change..so a discussion would be fruitless. If you feel the need to refute something..that's your choice but it's not neccessary with me. I am fully persuaded in my own mind.

Take care,
Missy  

 

Edited this post since it is in violation of rule #1 - No Flaming 

[Charles YTK]

 

[Joseph16]

Let me start off by saying that I am new to this forum and not a moderator of any kind. Further, I know very little of Judaism and even less of Messianic Judiasm. However, if I were interested in but unsure of either, or Christianity for that matter, I believe this thread might have been enough to turn me away. I am familiar with the rules of this forum as a whole and of proper manners as a human being regardless of your faith. This is getting ridiculous. This fude that I see repeatedly between Br. Max and Charles is getting entirely out of hand. Both of you claim to be teachers or your faith yet as of these last few posts you are setting a very poor example for those you claim to teach. Likewise, you set no example for those who know little of either of your faiths. I am sorry but the final post was entirely out of line. There is no need to become so degrading, rude and (for lack of more polite term) crude. :sick:
Like I said, I am not a moderator and I hate to come off so harsh as a newbie, but in the words of my mother...you two better straighten it up or stay away from each other. I am 23 years old and can look at things and decern for myself whether or not you are acting appropriately. There are those younger though who do use this forum and I hate to think of how many of them that you two just ran off.:(
Yours in Christ,
Fred

[Charles YTK]

You are quite correct Joseph. I would never post such a thing under normal conditions. I did so only to demonstrate the kind of obuse Br. Max is handing to so many including myself. Look at the post before mine, where he declares another believer as not saved because they differ in opinion with him. The sad thing is that Max has free reign and support on this forum.

I apologise for the crude lesson that I posted.
Please forgive me.
Charles

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by vegan
But Missy, you are not stating opinions. You are boldly stating that Christian holidays have their roots in pegan holidays. THat is not an opinion. You are stating that as fact. This isnt "trying to get along" as you call for in your post.

It is true that some of the holidays take place during certain pegan holidays, but that does not make it pegan. How could Christ's birth be based on peganism? THat is what I am celebrating in 3 days (with my family, Baruch HaShem). NOt some Winter festival rooted in druidism.

 

Vegan, You are entitled to believe what you will..as I said..it is my personal opinion..one can take it or leave it. And I am certainly entitled to believe what I will..

I do not believe Jesus' birth is pagan. I believe when people celebrate it with Christmas trees, mistletoe, things of that nature.. those things are indeed pagan. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that..all you have to do is type in on a yahoo search the origin of anyone of those things and you'll find out where they came from.  Now as for people that want to use Dec 25th as their day of choice to remember Jesus' birth. I don't see a thing wrong with that. I just don't see the point in acting like those pagan things I named are something that represent Jesus.. I just choose not to associate things of that nature with Jesus and I don't celebrate his birthday..because Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th and I don't know when he was born. But bible scholars have proven it was definitely closer to spring than winter. I remember Jesus was born everyday..but I also remember his death and ressurection everyday as well.

 

Missy

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by Br. Max
 

Well then since you know better than everyone else in the universe and flat out refuse to hear . . . I pitty you.  You are fully persuaded by the enemies of God and glad of it - how sad.

LOL, Um..no I don't think I know better than everyone in the universe..but I do know better than anyone what's best for me. And that was and is my point. Don't waste your time piting me.. it's pointless. Now if you think I am that smart...lol..well thanks for the compliment.  :D

And no, I am not persuaded by the enemies of God..but if you choose to believe that..that's your issue..not mine. Believe me, I won't loose sleep over it.

 

Missy

[Joseph16]

Charles,

I did, in fact, read both postings as well as the entire thread.  I ve also read another thread in which you and Brother Max acted similiarly.  My posting was directed at both of you.  I do not wish to chastise anyone and I've read quite a bit about both of your personal backgrounds.  Prior to this I had great deal of respect for both of you by virture of your age, your staure in your fatih and your wealth of knowlege.  However, BOTH of you acted entirely juvenile and immature.  I appreciate you removing that last post and hope that in the future the two of you can keep the feuding down to a minimun.  One of the purposes of this forum, as I understand it, is to share your faith and help to develop an interfaith understanding and respect regardless of how different the beliefs may be from yours.  I hope both of you will take this oppurtunity to calm down and continue to help help those of us who are trying to attain the knowlege that you two were so willingly sharing. :pray: :wave:

Thanks,

Fred     :wave: :wave:

[Pray4Isrel]

Hi Joseph16!
I myself have been trying to focus on the unity we all have in Yeshua (Jesus) regardless if we are Jew or Gentile. I posted the message below in an attempt for others to see how the constant arguing only makes the rift grow larger. Please click below... I hope you find it encouraging.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/30721.html

BTW, Welcome! I hope you will enjoy this forum as it really has so much to offer about Messianic Judaism. Dig for the treasures, they are here.

I hope others take your posts to heart as I have been trying to relay the effects of our speech upon all who visit here.  Keep speaking up and let others see your genuineness.

God Bless!

 

[dignitized]

Joseph 16

I do not just claim to be a teacher I am a teacher. I am a certified History teacher. I have 3 degrees and an ordination. I have a BS in Secondary Ed., a BS in American History, and a Masters in Theology. I am a vowed Franciscan with the "rank" of deacon. Charles has yet to tell us what his degrees are but I've asked more than once for him to tell us.

I have no problem with Charles as a person. NO problem at all. It’s the questionable teachings he keeps spouting off as if they are gospel with no support, no citation, no evidence. Is it too much to ask to be able to see for myself the "evidences" he claims to have? Is it too much to ask to see corroboration?

You should notice that the one thing I refuse to accept from Charles are the false claims of paganization of the faith. On that issue alone I have refused ANY compromise.

It is taught by scripture to test any teaching. It is also taught by scripture that truth is verified by a multiplicity of witnesses. :) I’m testing and asking for witnesses who agree. That’s all.

Pax et bonum

[vegan]

Missy - sorry. Now I see what you meant by opinion. I understand that in your opinion, some of the ways we CELEBRATE christmas are pegan in origin (I have heard this in regard to trees, etc.). I thought you said in your opinion, CHristmas itself was pegan.

Sorry.

[Charles YTK]

Vegan,
I would like to add something if I may. Look at this verse.

Ex 32: [4] And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. [5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD.

There is a lesson in this for us. The people said, these will be our gods. The word for gods here is Elohim, which is sort of generic, and can mean "rulers" as well. This molten calf was to take the place of Moshe who was missing and feared to be dead. When Aaron speaks he says, after building the altar before this thing, "Tomorrow will be a feast unto the Lord." "Lord" is not a good translation because actually the word used is "YHVH", the personal name of God given to Moshe. So Aaron is going along with the desire of the people to worship the Lord God YHVH in the same way that the Egyptians worshiped their God, the sun, RA. As a result a judgement came against Israel and many died there in the wilderness.

The lesson here is that we are not to mix the precious (Holy) and the vile (profane). There is to be a clear distinction between how we approach God and how the Pagans approach their gods. This is the whole idea of the separated prieshood, and Kosher law and such.

Now where the church made one of its mistakes was in this same mixing of precious and vile. Yeshua was born, most likely on the first day of the feast of Tabernacles, because all the feast days of the Moedim point to the life of Messiah. And tabernacles in particular points to his coming to the earth to live with us. There are many very strong hints to this in scripture which I am happy to expound on if you like. (with references)

Suffice it to say though that there is no scriptural connection to the Dec. 25th date. In fact it is the least likely of all days that God would allow his son to be born as it was already known (beginning 400 BC) as the day of the birth of Mithra, and Osiris, and several other sun gods of the pagan world. It is just like the days of Moshe, as Israel decided to worship YHVH in the way that the Pagans worshipped the sun God, so the church also in the 4th century decided to worship Jesus in the way and at the same time as those who worshipped the sun God mithra. This was accomplished at the time of Constantine, as Christianity was declared the state religion and the worship of Mthra, (the leading Pagan deity) was blended with Christianity in a brilliant move to unify the Roman Empire.

While there is nothing Pagan about observing the birth of Messiah, (even though we are not commandmened to do so) it is better to do it on the correct festival which God gave us which points to that birth, rather than taking part in a festival that is only connected to Mithra, and can not be connected in any way to a single event or date in the bible. We should do all that is possible to separate the precious and the vile. We are to be holy, because He (Adonai) is Holy.

Look what happened to Israel when the wises man to ever live, Solomon, compromised with his many Gentile wives and allowed them to build pagan altars and high places and to introduce pagan festivals and ritual; Israel fell into Idolatry which lead to the loss of the northern kingdom (10 tribes) and later Judah for the same reasons. (See Ez 8,9).

I am willing to discuss this in detail as time is allowed if you want to look deeper, and provided there is no interuptions from those who only want to dispute.

Charles

[dignitized]

OY VEY OY VEY OY VEY.

1 - There is no connection between Mithra and the Christian faith or the church in general. It cannot be proven because it does not exist. YES there are parallels between the Christian faith and Mithra - Just like there are parallels between the Hebrew faith and the MONOTHEISM of ATEN. Does this mean that the Hebrew faith is connected in any way to that ancient Egyptian faith?? NO!!!

2 - JAN 7 is the original date for Christmas so any claim of paganization based upon the date dec 25 are plainly SPURIOUS.

3 - the claim that there is no Jewish feast connected to the Solstice is also Spurious as it is well known that Chanukah is so connected.

4 - Christmas was observed LONG before the advent of Constantine.

5 - there is no real evidence linking the birth of Christ to the feast of booths other than the claims of one less than reputable scholar who has a vested interest in proving the link.

6 - ALL of the Major Christian feasts were established LONG before the Christianity became the official religion of the empire.

7 - Charles you have been warned time and again about these claims. you have been reported.

If you would like historical references for what I have stated just ask :) I have them to give.

[dignitized]

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD1W0902.pdf if you are interested in the aledged exchange between Mithra and Christianity I suggest the above link


ALL such claims are based upon the faulty research and claims of a MULSIM author Yousuf Saleem Chishti.

[Charles YTK]

Br. Max.

I respect your scholarship. Can you explain how or why the church decided on a December 25th observance, from any sort of scriptural standpoint. If not perhaps a historical point of view.

[Charles YTK]

From encarta Encyclopedia 1998

Christmas, in the Christian church, annual festival, held on December 25, to celebrate the Nativity, or birth of Christ. The origin of the festival is unknown. Scholars believe that it is derived in part from rites held by pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic peoples to celebrate the winter solstice. Christmas festivals, generally observed by Christians since the 4th century, incorporate pagan customs, such as the use of holly, mistletoe, Yule logs, and wassail bowls. The Christmas tree, an evergreen trimmed with lights and other decorations, is derived from the so-called paradise tree, symbolizing Eden, of German mystery plays. The use of a Christmas tree began early in the 17th century, in Strasbourg, France, spreading from there through Germany and then into northern Europe. In 1841 Albert, prince consort of Queen Victoria, introduced the Christmas tree custom to Great Britain; from there it accompanied immigrants to the United States.



"Christmas," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

This says the festival did not begin until the 4th century AD.

[Charles YTK]

TO Br. Max and all

I never said that Christianity was a Pagan religion or that it was based on a Pagan religion. Clearly the thrust of my own work and volumes of my writings which are published in many christian web sites and  churches focus on the Hebraic origins of the faith, and the continuity of  Judaism into Christianity. My doctrine is that we are one people under one God. The old Testament (Tanakh) is the foundation of the new.

To question the origins of certain practices such as the change of the Sabbath, the observance of Passover or the December 25th date for the birth of Christ, which have absolutely no Hebraic origins, nor were they practiced by the Christians of Palestine, but rather only by the Christians of Rome and Alexandria, deserves proper consideration without emotionalism. These things are held in common, by coincidence or by design, with the ancient prechristian practices of the Romans and Greeks. The Christians of Israel and asia, continue to observe the Sabbath and the feast days (Moedim) of the old testament well into the the 5th century or later. Even as late as the 6 th century we see in Judaism a change in the daily prayers to include a curse against those who believe in Jesus, in order to draw out and expose hidden christians in their midst. One must ask why this was necessary if there were no Christains observing Sabbath and attending Synagogue. Also in these late time the Church in Rome had to issue orders calling for their member to cease from observing the Sabbath and the Passover. Why if this was not in fact the custom of those believers?

So the question remains, how did the changes come into the christian faith?

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Br. Max [/i]
[B]why would a person who knows Jesus Christ as the Messiah who has the gift of the covenant of grace want to live in bondage to the law?? Yes we should know our roots bu she must also know our stem, our branches our leaves and our fruit.

I - unlike most who are posting here in this form - by the LAW of the Torah a JEW. What more I am a Jew who's liniage is of the tribe of Levi. Does this benefit me in the eyes of GOD? NOPE


Eph writes...

IF I were a Southern Baptist...I'd say " Can I have an AHHMEN "...to this post...!

LOL :)

Dead on accurate...Why go BACKWARDS..when we've been called "forward"...!

[EPHRIAM777]

MY understanding of Messianic Jews is this....

They are made up mostly or led by former Jews who still wish to cling to their Jewishness...all the while professing JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Savior...

Yet they make him no more than an ADD ON to their former "religion"...This was done also done in the book of ACTS...They want to live in 2 worlds and end up living in neither...Rejected by Jews who still are Jews...and not accepted by Christians..who never were Jews...

This "fence sitting" and lukewarm attitude towards Jesus Christ...will not produce fruit...It will produce a people happy to wallow in their "Jewishness"...and never be able tomove them "forward" by FAITH IN Jesus Christ...!

[Charles YTK]

Ephriam777,

To go back to the perversion of the Torah by trying earn your own salvation through a legalistic observance of commandments would be a futile step backwards. This is what the Pharisees had fallen into and which both Yeshua and Paul taught against.

However using Torah in the way that Yeshua expained it, his Halacha, would be to use the Torah as Gods instructions in Righteous living for the redeemed people. This is also what Yeshua and Paul taught. We are to obey the torah from the heart, applying its deep truth and principle to our own lives in practicle ways.

Paul says in Romans 2: . . . [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, . . .

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Br. Max.

I respect your scholarship. Can you explain how or why the church decided on a December 25th observance, from any sort of scriptural standpoint. If not perhaps a historical point of view.

 

I have told you that there is no scriptural reasons for the placement of Christmas.  I have also pointed out to you that the ORIGINAL placement of Christmas was on JANUARY 6 which is still observed by those of the EASTERN RITE CHURCHES (aka) ORTHODOX, COPTIC, SYRIAN so an explanation of dec 25 is pointless.  The main reason it was moved was in an attempt to assert that the church in the west what we not think of as the RCC has the primacy over the whole of Christendom. The January date was chosen because it is the date of the visit by the Magi.  In the western church it is called Epiphany. 

[Charles YTK]

Then I wonder why they chose to move it to Dec. 25th of all days. It just seems to me to be a bad choice.

[EPHRIAM777]

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
MY understanding of Messianic Jews is this....

They are made up mostly or led by former Jews who still wish to cling to their Jewishness...all the while professing JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Savior...

Yet they make him no more than an ADD ON to their former "religion"...This was done also done in the book of ACTS...They want to live in 2 worlds and end up living in neither...Rejected by Jews who still are Jews...and not accepted by Christians..who never were Jews...

This "fence sitting" and lukewarm attitude towards Jesus Christ...will not produce fruit...It will produce a people happy to wallow in their "Jewishness"...and never be able tomove them "forward" by FAITH IN Jesus Christ...!

 

A very accurate statement of the facts.

[EPHRIAM777]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles YTK
[B]Ephriam777,

To go back to the perversion of the Torah by trying earn your own salvation through a legalistic observance of commandments would be a futile step backwards. This is what the Pharisees had fallen into and which both Yeshua and Paul taught against.

Eph replies...

Correct...


Charles says...
However using Torah in the way that Yeshua expained it, his Halacha, would be to use the Torah as Gods instructions in Righteous living for the redeemed people. This is also what Yeshua and Paul taught. We are to obey the torah from the heart, applying its deep truth and principle to our own lives in practicle ways.

Eph writes...

OBEY means.."to hearken"..or listen to the one telling you what to do..NOT some command...More like giving directions to someone when their lost.....as long as you follow the directions given to you by someone who knows the way...you won't get lost...Christians follow JESUS and Obey him that sence..Jesus BTW only laid certain commandments on NT Chruch Saints...today known as "Christians"..MATT 22:37:39...2 in all...NOT the OT Torahand all it's Laws.. :)

Charles says...
Paul says in Romans 2: . . . [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Eph writes...

Again correct...Paul was always dead on accurate...! Trained by Jesus himself...!

[EPHRIAM777]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EPHRIAM777


They just know how to smile and act Holy....while they do it...!


...OH...Did I need to say I've had MANY run in with this group of people..?

some could win a scripture quoting contest IF one broke out...but that alone means nothing towards being led by the Spirit...!

Ya know.... I've met some that actually want Christians to move to Israel...because they think thats what GOD wants them to do...per EZk 37....!

[Charles YTK]

Ephraim,
What were the gentile told to do in acts 15? Don't you find it strange that they are given Kosher laws to observe? To what end? so that they could enter into fellowship with both believing and non beleiving Jews in table fellowship. Look at the last line of that apostolic decree and we see an admonistion to grow in faith and in the knowledge of Torah. For there is in every city those who teach Moshe each Sabbath in the synagogues." The emphasis is on a point of entry like that already demonstrated in the life of cornelius, and to go beyond that to mature belief and Torah observance, (Not legalism)

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Then I wonder why they chose to move it to Dec. 25th of all days. It just seems to me to be a bad choice.

 

Charles, we have covered this already.

There are 2 key reasons for the selection of dec 25 for the date of Christmas.

1 - the solstice which in the natural world proclaims in many ways the message of the birth of Christ SYMBOLICALLY - in a world which has been growing steadily darker - LIGHT is "born." THUS even nature proclaims the reality of Christ as messiah and light of the world by placing the date at the solstice.

2 - The average Joe Roman was used to celebrating the solstice - YES in connection with the pagan holidays which share that date - but NOW, as Christians in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> and second centuries even BEFORE the empire became Christian, they were celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

ALSO - the liturgical year and the liturgical calendar were never intended to set the celebration of a biblical event always at the same date of the event as it actually happened. There are life issues to be considered here. The bulk of the events of the life of Christ are centered around the planting and harvesting seasons. How can the farmer partake of a faith who asks you to celebrate during your busiest work times? Therefore, the events of the calendar were spaced out over the year to accommodate the events of LIVING.

&nbsp;

***

&nbsp;

We all know that dec is NOT the Lords birthday. His actual birthday is of little importance to our faith. What is celebrated at Christmas is the fact of His birth! :) Because He was born, we can have eternal life. Does the day of Christ birth affect or effect my walk? No. Does the fact of Christ’s birth affect or effect my walk - YES. In that way it is a better thing NOT to celebrate the birth of Christ on his actual birthday.

[Charles YTK]

Paul tell Timothy to continue in those sound things which he grew up in, Torah. It is this Tanakh which is to make Timothy wise unto a saving knowledge of Messiah. Also Paul says all scripture is inspirited of God and good for reproof, instruction, training in Righteousness, and doctrine. There was no such thing as a New testament at that time. Paul is speaking of the Tanakh, the Torah prophets and writings. These are to be our foundation for doctrine according to Paul.

II Tim 3: [14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
From encarta Encyclopedia 1998

Christmas, in the Christian church, annual festival, held on December 25, to celebrate the Nativity, or birth of Christ. The origin of the festival is unknown. Scholars believe that it is derived in part from rites held by pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic peoples to celebrate the winter solstice. Christmas festivals, generally observed by Christians since the 4th century, incorporate pagan customs, such as the use of holly, mistletoe, Yule logs, and wassail bowls. The Christmas tree, an evergreen trimmed with lights and other decorations, is derived from the so-called paradise tree, symbolizing Eden, of German mystery plays. The use of a Christmas tree began early in the 17th century, in Strasbourg, France, spreading from there through Germany and then into northern Europe. In 1841 Albert, prince consort of Queen Victoria, introduced the Christmas tree custom to Great Britain; from there it accompanied immigrants to the United States.



"Christmas," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

&nbsp;

This says the festival did not begin until the 4th century AD.


Sorry, but first of all - I have problems with encarta's "scholarship" on many issues.&nbsp; It is flawed.&nbsp; IF I were going to choose an encyclopedia for secular historical information I'd choose the Oxford over any other Britannica second.&nbsp; BUT for Christian information (remember that many secular sources are far from unbiased), I'd stick with Recognized Christain sources.

&nbsp;

Encarta leaves out the Lutheran history of the Christmas tree.

[Charles YTK]

Thanks br. Max. I understand what you are saying. Perhaps that is the way it is viewed by the majority of christainity. Then what about Easter, and Pentecost. They are not quite as abitrarly chosen. They seem to be tied to the passover at least indirectly by the church. Almost like the church purposely avoids the passover and set easter to occur a week or two offset from it. Is it the same reasoning as you have illustrated fro Dec. 25th?

[Charles YTK]

I no longer have a hard copy of Britanica, but perhaps someone reading this could check for us what it has to say about Christmas, and when it stared to be observed by the church. I used Incartica, because it is what I have on hand and I can copy and past rather than type, which I am not too good at.

[Charles YTK]

I chaecked the Ungers Bible dictionary by moody press. It says that the Christmas celebraton of Dec 25 is 4th century and quotes a sermon by Chrysostom from 386 who says concerning that day,"It is not ten years since this day was clearly known to us, but it has been known from the beginning to those who dwel in the west." By the west I believe he is refering to Gentiles.Might he be saying that other cultures already knew the significance of the Dec. 25th date? I am not sure. It also says the giving of gifts was a Roman tradition, although I know that the church has christianized this pratice and given it new meaning.

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Thanks br. Max. I understand what you are saying. Perhaps that is the way it is viewed by the majority of christainity. Then what about Easter, and Pentecost. They are not quite as abitrarly chosen. They seem to be tied to the passover at least indirectly by the church. Almost like the church purposely avoids the passover and set easter to occur a week or two offset from it. Is it the same reasoning as you have illustrated fro Dec. 25th?

&nbsp;

The Definitive feast of the Christian calendar is that of Pascha (aka - EASTER). It is the primary feast of the liturgical year and the feast around which all others are placed. Pascha is placed on the Sunday after Passover. In the early church there were many different traditions concerning Easter and its placement some even felt it was important to place the celebration the calendar date rather than the practice which won out at the council of Nicaea which concluded to place the feast on the Sunday AFTER Passover no matter what day of the week Passover falls on. The importance of Sunday as the day of Christ’s Resurrection and the date of Christian worship from the dawn of the Church. Pentecost by its very name requires its placement to be 50 days following Pascha. In fact, half of the calendar is placed according to Easter.

[Pray4Isrel]

Br. Max and Charles:

I just wanna pop in and give you all props for being so civil! I applaud all of you for maintaining your respect for each other even in the midst of a heated debate.

God Bless All of You and I Enjoy My Friendship With Each of You!

[Charles YTK]

The church really could have done better in my opinion. Because it was the Passover on which Yeshua was killed, and which is prophetic of that event. This would still place the resurrection on Sunday every year, because Yeshua was raised from the dead on the feast of first fruits which is the Sunday following the passover. Specifically it is state, "on the morrow after the day in which you kill the passover." This also starts the counting of the Omer, the 7 weeks which then Brings Shavuot at its conclusion.

Yeshua was raised on first fruits which is on Sunday, and that is why Sunday is the Lord's day. We are told that Yeshua is the first fruits of those raised from the dead; the firstfruits of the resurrection, and he is the first of many sons. And if the first of the harvest is holy so also is the final harvest.

Passover is the head of the feast days. You might find this intersting

Passover is the head feast of the Sacred Calendar.
There are 8 days in this feast, each day points to another feast in the year.

What ever day the first day of Passover falls on, so also will Tisha b'Av
What ever the the second day of Passover falls on, so also will Pentecost (Shovuot)
The 3rd. day, so also will Rosh Ha Shannah and Sukkos
The 4th. day, so also will Simchat Torah (The 8th day of Tabernacles, Sukkot)
The 5th. day, so also will Yom Kippur
The 6th. day, so also will Purim
The 7th. day, so also will The day of Independence of Israel (Iyyar 5)
The 8th. day is only in effect during the Diaspora (due to the 24 hour divisions) and points to a day that is still a mystery.

[Charles YTK]

I am moving this copy from the other forum. Hope nobody minds.

Another example of the literal fulfillment of the moedim, (appointed times, is in the Passover. Yeshua was killed on the passover being for that time the lamb of God. Pasover is about deliverance from satanic power and paganisms hold on you, as Egypt was the Pagan nation who held Israel as slaves to it. It is the world system of its day.

Yeshua was killed on Passover at the exact same time that the lambs were slaughtered on the altar. The passover lamb was to be killed on the evening of the 14th of Nisan. Actually the term "In the evening, or at dusk" as some translations put it is not correct. In the Torah it says between the evenings. What does this mean? Remember that the Jewish day begins at six in the evening or as the sun goes down. In Jewish time keeping, as the sun begins to wane, it is the first of evening, going past noon. The beginning of the coming darkness is a 6PM, and constitutes the evening. Between the evenings is 3 PM. Now the Gospels tells us " [45] Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. [46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? " The sixth hour by Roman time is noon, because they reckon the day from 6 AM, (daybreak) (We reckon it from midnight) Then at the nineth hour Yeshua calls out and then says "It is finished". The ninth hour is 3 PM, the same hour as "Between the evenings" in the Hebrew, the time when the lambs are slain. When the Priest killed the lamb, he actually spoke the same words, according to a number of Jewish Rabbis, "It is Finished".

On other point is the crucifixion. Why did Yeshua said "My God My God, why have you forsaken me"? Did God really turn his face from the sin bearing sun at his greatest hour of need, or can there be another explanation? You see in the Hbrew scriptures the various books do not have the same names that we give them. They are known by the opening verses of the scrolls. The Jews consigned large amounts of text to memory, especially Torah and the Psalms. Psalm 22 has the Hebrew title of "My God My God, why have you forsaken me." As Yeshua spoke these words he was instantly bringing Psalm 22 to theminds of those around him. Why? Because Psalm 22 is teh exact prophetic discription of the Messiah being execute by crucifixion. Even down to the part of where," behold they have divided my cloth and cast lots for my vesture." Yeshua was saying to those around him, "Look, before your very eyes are the scriptures fulfilled." If you have not read Psalm 22 in this understanding, I would ask you to take a few moments after reading this to do so. All the gory medical details are included in the Psalm, the actual physiological processes that takes place in this form of death.

Yeshua was execute on Golgotha, the place of the skull. I am told by the Rabbis that from that place one could look straight through the gates into the holy place and see the veil of the temple. Yeshua died on the cross having a clear view I suspect of that holy place.

Yeshua had his passover seder meal with his friends on the night that he was betrayed, in the upper room over the throne of David, a place sacred to the sons of Zadok, and maintained by them. These righteous men held their Passover on the day before the temple priests, because of a difference in understanding of what was dictated by scripture. This unique situation allowed Messiah to fulfill the Seder meal and also later that day to become the passover lamb.

[Charles YTK]

I hope this is not too long for here. It speaks to the prophetic nature of the Passover in the future sense.

The Second Great Exodus
By Charles Ryalls

The entire world is about to witness another display of the mighty power of God. A display like has not happened since the people of Israel were delivered from the hands of the Egyptians nearly 3500 years ago. There are many things that can be seen as a parallel between these two events. Things that we can use to gain an understanding of what those who are today called by His name, can expect during the coming Tribulation. It is one of the most important questions on the minds of most believers today, What is going to happen to us? I thought it would be good to set down some of these similarities and take a look at them.

DT 18: [18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. [19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

That Prophet was (and is) Yeshua. And according to the writings of Paul, Yeshua was in fact the presence of God who went with the children of Israel when they left Egypt. He was the Manna from heaven and the water from the rock and the column of fire and Shecaniah Glory over the people and the light of the Holy Tabernacle.

God sent Moshe (Moses) to deliver His chosen people from the bondage of the world system of his day. Israel had been living in Egypt 400 years, since the days of Joseph. At first they were a separate people from the Egyptians, having their own ways but as time wore on they became more and more like the Egyptians or the world around them you might say. They grew in numbers to become a multitude of people. We see no indication really that the common citizen of Egypt had much problem with Gods people, but the Pharaoh and His advisors began to fear and distrust them and began to oppress them with harsh labor.

Believers today are also assimilated into the world. Walking in a typical city with it’s many and varied peoples filling it’s streets, there is no clear indication as to who is a believer and who isn’t. Much of the church in the west has fallen away from faith and its discipline and have learned the” language of the world” and taken on its customs. Their behavior is no different from those around them for the most part. In the past Sunday was the one day, that set a mark of distinction upon the believers, and even that has somehow been given over for other personal interests, such as jobs, sports, watching Television and anything else the world does. But there seems to be a growing dislike for true believers in the world and severe oppression has begun in many places, especially where the true work of God is taking place. Where people walk in obedience to God rather than the world system. Because where Gods light is, the world’s evil is exposed and the world doesn’t like that.

JN 15: [18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

MATT 5: [14] Ye are the light of the world…[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

We can count it as a good thing when people hate us for our faith. Because we know that it is the Christ in us that they are seeing.

As the Egyptians began to oppress the people of Israel, they began to cry out to God for deliverance. A separation was taking place. And God heard their cry and sent Moshe, to bring them out. Is there a cry for deliverance among Gods people today? Yes, where there is oppression and persecution. But in the West the only cry from the people is, “Oh Lord don’t take away all the things I have accumulated for myself.” “Don’t separate me from this world that I love.”

People who really know their God, hate this world and everything in it, because they see it for what it really is, a corrupt and Godless wilderness. These are God’s people and they cry out for deliverance and look eagerly for the day that we can at last be with our Lord Yeshua. There is a difference between us and the world. We are a peculiar people called out with a purpose.

As Moshe began to bring Gods plagues to the Egyptians, the Lord made a distinction between the Egyptians and His own people. The plagues did not bring harm to Gods people.

EX 11: [6] And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more. [7] But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

EX 10: [22] And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: [23] They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

I believe that in the Tribulation of the end times which is now upon us, that God will once again make a distinction between the World system that He is judging and His own people. There are both natural and a supernatural process involved in this. If the world is doing something that by its practice causes harm, and believers don’t do those things, then the believers will not suffer the effects of them. For example, if the world is infested with Sexually transmitted diseases it should not be a problem within the believers because their walk with God keeps them from taking part in the sexual behaviors that spread this disease around. This is a natural process.

But if the whole land is over run with locusts and your farm is spared because you are a believer, then this begins to be something not easily explained as a natural process. If the sun does not give its light for days, and even your lamps will not give you light in the darkness, and yet the believers all have light in their dwellings, we can be sure of the hand of God upon His people. This is a supernatural process at work and can only be understood as the hand of God. There will be both processes at work during the tribulation.

Lets look at some of the plagues that were brought upon the lands of Egypt and its people in those days.

God turned all the waters to blood.
Covers the land and fills their homes with frogs.
Turns the dust of the earth into Lice or gnats.
Swarms of flies fill the air and the homes of men.
Brings death to the cattle and beasts of the earth.
Painful boils upon the people of Egypt.
Hail and fire fall and destroy most of the grain and herbs and trees and any man or beast that was outside.
Locusts cover the earth and eat all the residue left from the hail.
Darkness comes upon the land for three days, such that no man can even rise up from his bed.
Death to all the first born of man and beast.

All of these thing fell upon the lands of Egypt and none of the people of God suffered from these things. God made a distinction between His people and the World. Might He do the same thing in the Tribulation? You should notice that the plagues of Egypt can be classified into a couple different types.
Judgements against the waters.
Judgements against the Land (earth).
Judgements against the beasts of the earth.
Judgements against man.

Now if we take a look at the plagues of the Tribulation shown in the Revelation we will see again these same categories of plagues.

Hail and fire burn up the lands, trees and green grass.
Waters turn to blood, both the sea and the fresh waters and rivers.
Some sort of Locust from the pit of hell comes and torments men.
Men who are not Gods, ( followers of Antichrist and the world system) break out in painful boils.
The land is scorched with great heat.
Darkness falls upon the earth, the sun and moon no longer give their light.
Millions to be killed of the sons of men, at Armageddon


One of the very last signs that God gave before this exodus, was the darkness that fell in all the Land of Egypt. It was a terrible, and supernatural darkness that shook men to their very souls. The kind of darkness that you can feel, like being in a cave. It was this sign that finally reached Pharaoh and convinced him that the God of Moshe was indeed the true God. After this he was willing to let the people go.

EX 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. [22] And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: [23] They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

This is again to be the last sign before the final judgement on the earth and the removal of Gods people. After this sign, all the men of power will know who the real God is.

Rev 6:[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It is easy to see the similarities of these Tribulation events and those of the Exodus. In Egypt God provided a covering of Blood by the Passover lamb, that whoever was under the seal of the Lambs blood would not suffer the death of the first born. This death of the first born can be seen as the cutting off of the inheritance of the un-saved. Their futures as they had planned them were taken away. A new order would be established in the wake of the deliverance of Gods chosen. This is true also of the end times. All the best laid plans of men will be lost, thrown away and a new order with God Himself ruling the earth from Jerusalem will be established in the Millennial Kingdom. The deliverance from death and bondage to the carnal life is through the blood. The Blood of the lamb that was applied to the door posts of the children of Israel was a picture of the Blood of Yeshua, Gods lamb, that must be applied to the door posts of our hearts. This blood marks us for salvation and deliverance from the powers of death. In the end times, those who have been covered by this Blood of Yeshua, through faith in Him, will stand behind His hand of protection when the armies of the world come against Yeshua and Jerusalem in the battle of Armageddon. Millions are going to die. The blood will be bridle deep to a horse across the entire valley. But God’s people who have been covered by the Blood, will stand secure with the Lord Yeshua.

[Charles YTK]

Continued from above:

In the Exodus, God was bringing His people to the promised land, the place where he would establish his rule among them. But first there was a final bit of house cleaning to be done. The power of the world system in Egypt needed to be broken completely. The people of God were going to be taken out of the world.

God took them out in the middle of the night, just after midnight. The death of the firstborn came at midnight under the light of a full moon. And Pharaoh rose up and ordered the people of God to leave right then. They were ready. God had prepared them for the journey, they ate there meal of the Passover with their shoes on, with their staff in their hands, with the loins girded up, ready to go. They had prepared themselves by obedience to Gods commands. And like a thief in the night Moshe lead them out.

1TH 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

MT 24: [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Moshe lead the people to the Red Sea under the light of a Passover full moon. The journey would take three days. God had them change directions a couple times and lead them in a way as to appear that they were lost. God was working the bait of His trap that He had set for Pharaoh and his army. Pharaoh thought the people were trapped against the sea with no escape and so he assembled his great army to go and slaughter the people of God. But God had another plan. He was gathering together the powers of evil into one place for their total destruction. This would be the end of the Pharaohs power. The mightiest army of the world was about to be fed to the fish. God was not going to destroy all the innocent people of Egypt or the lands around them because of their King. There were good people who really cared for Israel. The scriptures tell us that the Jews found favor in the eyes of the Egyptians. These people would survive Gods judgement. In the same way God, in the last days will gather together the armies of the worlds evil system, under the leadership of their corrupt King, the Antichrist, and gather them to the place of Armageddon. Here he will break that power and at the same time he will spare the innocent people of the nations. There will be survivors of the Tribulation, the people of the nations whos armies fought against Jerusalem, who will enter into the Millennial Kingdom as mortal citizens.


ZEC 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


EX 14:[21] And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. [22] And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

In the same way, the Lord will come as our deliverer and all the nations armies will be gathered against the Lord and the He will stretch forth His hand and part the heavens as He once parted the sea and the people of God will be seen standing in victory with the Lord.


REV 6: [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

REV 19: [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

It was those who were covered by the Blood of the Passover Lamb who walked safely across the barrier of the sea on dry land. They entered as slaves and came out the other side free men, by the salvation of God. When the sky opens to reveal our Lord it will again be those who have been covered by the "Blood of the Lamb of God" (Yeshua) who will be standing with Him on the side of the divide inVictory. Having entered on this side as flesh and in bondage to the flesh, and emerging on the other side in glorified bodies like His, freed from the power of the flesh forever by the salvation of God. This greatest of all events the "Final Great Exodus" is very near at hand. Are you covered by the Blood? Are you preparing for our departure by obedience to His commands? We are about to witness a deliverance of God that will make the parting of the Red Sea seem like a promotional trailer of a movie compared to the full main feature. It’s going to be wide screen, in color and it’s coming to a theater near you!

EX 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will show to you today: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen today, ye shall see them again no more for ever. [14] The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

After Gods people were safely delivered across the passage of the sea, which the Lord God had created for them, Moshe and all the people looked back across the gap and saw Pharaoh and his evil horde waiting on the other side, held in check by the hand of God. Then God removed the pillar of fire and the rush was on. The Evil army charged against the People of God and His deliverer. And when they were fully in the midst of the sea; God troubled them and made their chariot wheels get stuck in the soil and the wheels to come off and they were stalled in the sea.

EX 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. [27] And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. [28] And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

This is all a picture of what will take place in the battle of Armageddon. God will deliver His people and take them across the divide of heaven. Antichrist will charge, thinking that he too can come across this divide and have victory. But it shall be Glory for the Lord, and all the armies of Antichrist will perish.

REV 19: [17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

REV 14: [18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

There are many things that we can learn about the coming deliverance of God in the Tribulation by looking at what He has already done, as in the Exodus. It was the Lord God who delivered the children of Israel then and protected them with the covering of Blood. It is that same Lord and God who will deliver His children again in this coming hour of Tribulation. Those who have been covered by the Blood of God’s lamb, Yeshua, will be brought across the divide of Heaven and into the land of Promise and Glory. The armies and powerful men of this evil world and the empire of the Antichrist will be destroyed in the great battle of God, and the Lord will gain fame and Great Glory from it. The people of the nations who survive these events will begin living in a New Kingdom and new order where God is King and righteousness the standard of life. Satan will be bound for the 1000 years of this Kingdom. Men will for the first time live in the kind of world that God had planned in the beginning, before sin came into the world. It will be a time of justice, and peace and long life. And those who are covered by the Blood of Gods Lamb, will share in this Kingdom as heirs and rules with Yeshua. And it is coming soon. The signs that the Lord gave to us to watch for to know that it is the time, have all come to pass. We wait now for the final events to unfold.

All the Old Testament types and shadows that tell us of our future deliverance are models for the Post tribulation rapture of the believers and not pretribulation. In Sodom, the people who were saved were brought out at the very last minutes as the wrath of God was poured out and destruction fell. In the flood of Noah, time was given to prepare. Provision of food, water and everything that would be needed to survive the deluge was gathered into the ark and then only at the very last moment, was the door shut and sealed, and Noah and his family came through the deluge in Gods protective hand. They were not taken off the earth, but were preserved through the wrath of God. I say these things so that you can prepare. You must prepare by following the directions given to you by God, in prayer and meditation. I hope that this short study is an excouragement to you, and builds your faith, so that in the last days, through the Great Tribulation, you will be able to stand and not stumble. Our God is able to save us. We need only to trust in Him and do as He says.

Even so Lord, let it be today. We wait for you oh Lord our God and long to be with you!

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
[B]The church really could have done better in my opinion. Because it was the Passover on which Yeshua was killed, and which is prophetic of that event. This would still place the resurrection on Sunday every year, because Yeshua was raised from the dead on the feast of first fruits which is the Sunday following the passover.

?? Pascha is the celebration of the resurrection of Christ. It is placed on Sunday because on Sunday he rose from the dead. It is placed on the Sunday following Passover. Did I confuse you in some way by my previous post? The Last supper is celebrated on Holy Thursday, His crucifixion on Good Friday. SUNDAY is Pascha (Easter) :) the Sunday after Passover.

I know the cycle of Passover. I know it well. We have a rabbi who comes every year and does the Passover with us on the Wednesday nearest the feast. We also have a Christian Scholar who does the Sadder on Holy Thursday relating the relevance of the feast and the symbology and how it foreshadows the Lord and Christ in the Eucharist.

I do not understand why you are taking issue with the placement of easter when it is based upon the placement of Passover.

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by vegan
Missy - sorry. Now I see what you meant by opinion. I understand that in your opinion, some of the ways we CELEBRATE christmas are pegan in origin (I have heard this in regard to trees, etc.). I thought you said in your opinion, CHristmas itself was pegan.

Sorry.

&nbsp;

Oh No problem, LOL! Sorry about the misunderstanding..hee hee!

To me Christmas is meaningful and beautiful when observed in the correct context. My only problem is the whole pagan spin the world has put on it..that's all.

&nbsp;

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by Charles YTK
Vegan,
I would like to add something if I may. Look at this verse.

Ex 32: [4] And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. [5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD.

There is a lesson in this for us. The people said, these will be our gods. The word for gods here is Elohim, which is sort of generic, and can mean "rulers" as well. This molten calf was to take the place of Moshe who was missing and feared to be dead. When Aaron speaks he says, after building the altar before this thing, "Tomorrow will be a feast unto the Lord." "Lord" is not a good translation because actually the word used is "YHVH", the personal name of God given to Moshe. So Aaron is going along with the desire of the people to worship the Lord God YHVH in the same way that the Egyptians worshiped their God, the sun, RA. As a result a judgement came against Israel and many died there in the wilderness.

The lesson here is that we are not to mix the precious (Holy) and the vile (profane). There is to be a clear distinction between how we approach God and how the Pagans approach their gods. This is the whole idea of the separated prieshood, and Kosher law and such.

Now where the church made one of its mistakes was in this same mixing of precious and vile. Yeshua was born, most likely on the first day of the feast of Tabernacles, because all the feast days of the Moedim point to the life of Messiah. And tabernacles in particular points to his coming to the earth to live with us. There are many very strong hints to this in scripture which I am happy to expound on if you like. (with references)

Suffice it to say though that there is no scriptural connection to the Dec. 25th date. In fact it is the least likely of all days that God would allow his son to be born as it was already known (beginning 400 BC) as the day of the birth of Mithra, and Osiris, and several other sun gods of the pagan world. It is just like the days of Moshe, as Israel decided to worship YHVH in the way that the Pagans worshipped the sun God, so the church also in the 4th century decided to worship Jesus in the way and at the same time as those who worshipped the sun God mithra. This was accomplished at the time of Constantine, as Christianity was declared the state religion and the worship of Mthra, (the leading Pagan deity) was blended with Christianity in a brilliant move to unify the Roman Empire.

While there is nothing Pagan about observing the birth of Messiah, (even though we are not commandmened to do so) it is better to do it on the correct festival which God gave us which points to that birth, rather than taking part in a festival that is only connected to Mithra, and can not be connected in any way to a single event or date in the bible. We should do all that is possible to separate the precious and the vile. We are to be holy, because He (Adonai) is Holy.

Look what happened to Israel when the wises man to ever live, Solomon, compromised with his many Gentile wives and allowed them to build pagan altars and high places and to introduce pagan festivals and ritual; Israel fell into Idolatry which lead to the loss of the northern kingdom (10 tribes) and later Judah for the same reasons. (See Ez 8,9).

I am willing to discuss this in detail as time is allowed if you want to look deeper, and provided there is no interuptions from those who only want to dispute.

Charles

&nbsp;

Charles, this was a wonderful post. And I enjoyed reading every word!

Blessings,

Missy

[dignitized]

Its like some people are just thirlled to find fault and believe that SATAN is stronger than God.

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL...

[dignitized]

May the Christ child whom we celebrate this day, be born anew in the manger of your heart. :) The Lord bless you and keep you in his care as you celebrate His son.

[Blindfaith]

Amen

[Pray4Isrel]

Double Amen ;)

[dignitized]

and the forum becomes strangly quiet . . . .

[MissytheButterfly]

Everything that needed to be said has been said..why keep beating a dead horse.

Missy

[dignitized]

missy: :) my dear there are more people in this forum than just you.

[ATAT]

and the forum becomes strangly quiet . . . .

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Crickets chirp.

&nbsp;

Wind blows.

&nbsp;

A lone wolf howls in the distance.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

You forgot the tubleweed blowing across the dusty plain.

;)

[ATAT]

You're right!

Man.

Oh, I can make up for it:




An old creaking, wooden sign rocks slowly back and forth in the wind.

&nbsp;

A screen porch door slams again and again.

[dignitized]

now all we need is a shoot out ;)

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by Br. Max
missy: :) my dear there are more people in this forum than just you.

&nbsp;

WOW..really..wouldn't have known if you didn't tell me.. :rolleyes:

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[Pray4Isrel]

Originally posted by ATAT
You're right!

Man.

Oh, I can make up for it:




An old creaking, wooden sign rocks slowly back and forth in the wind.

&nbsp;

A screen porch door slams again and again.

This is gettin good!

Also, a&nbsp;crow "caws" in the background...

And wind chimes gently play a tune to the wind...

:)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[Blindfaith]

Keep going.......

[Omaha-gal]

We stopped attending congregation at a Messianic place over 2 years ago, i want to attend one again, somewhere, i really loved the people.
it was a joyous time of celebrating what God has done, learning Hebrew customs, the language, history, my 2 daughters were part of the worship dance team, the worship time was awesome, but it was always stopped too short, due to service routines of following a Sabbath prayer book, i loved learning the order of service, don't get me wrong.&nbsp;
but we had to leave, because the leader began to verbalize his personal strong views about the New Testament teachings of the Apostle Paul,
and was increasingly demanding that if any one wants to stay in his congregation, the real Christ followers should not adhere to Shaul's teachings, and wont discuss them or listen to others talk about those teachings in that place.
it was going bad folks, really bad. but the Lord began revealing the hidden things.

the leader&nbsp;made no bones about it, from his pulpit, in criticizing Christians coming to Shabbat services but not living Torah life.
He did not teach much from the New Testament, at least the history of Christ was presented a few times.
Also, he became impatient and intolerant of those who were believers unwilling to become members of his congregation. anyone who was Jewish was welcome. it was something to experience, but the Lord used it, to show us what the Jews go thru, by being accused and misunderstood, not tolerated for their beliefs in God. Sadly, we came also to understand anti-semitism in the 'Church'.

The Holy Spirit led us out, it was quick, and it hurt.

i deeply love Israel, and love to pray with and for her people, and want get to continue to understand more of my Messiah, and would love to find once again, a congregation of worshipping Messianic believers-
with a real leader who truly loves Yeshua, who believes that Yeshua is represented correctly in the teachings of Shaul- especially the letter to the new Jewish believers, in Romans.

i realize my salvation is not dependant upon whether or not i say a certain prayer on a special day or observe or follow certain practises of worship that way others do.
sometimes, not often, due to things beyond my control, and sometimes poor planning, just forgetting when i shopped, all i had to use for communion was apple juice, and a cracker.
the Lord does not condemn, we did not profane anything by it.
He confirmed this many times, thru comforting reassurances
through other believers who did not even know why they were speaking to us so.
our sabbath meals were held on fridays or saturdays
it only mattered 'why' we did this- to worship God, by the Holy Spirit in us, and in Truth.

we took a long time to seek Him, to rest in Him,
and He has never left us, nor taken away His grace.
It is His promise, not anything we did or did not do.

Also what also bothered us, was the other church we were going to on sundays, was beginning to hear rumors of people going to this messianic congregation and leaving their 'main 'church'.
so, in a blanket statement from the lead pastor, he gave
several 'scriptural warnings' not to go back into bondage of the Law,
blah blah blah. we soon realized our call, to pray for the Lord to dispell any misrepresentaions in both places of worship. we actively did with others.
we were personally ' interviewed ', quizzed, by a pastor, not the leader, about what this messianic place was teaching. he talked to several other who had gone there, a few left to become members of the Messianic place.
he was concerned if we were going to leave as well.
we did leave that church a year ago in october, for different reasons.&nbsp; it has been an interesting year of resting in Him, fellowshipping together with Him in the unity of Holy Spirit.

Jesus loves us, and died for us while we all were yet sinners, and conquered death and the grave long before we knew Him.
i fully accept His work of Redemption,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and i know i am accepted in the Beloved.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The whole Bible tells me so.

Romans 12: 3, 4, 5
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ,
and every one members of one another.
&nbsp;

( signed &amp; sealed by the Apostle Paul,&nbsp;to the church in Rome,&nbsp; under the Supreme Authority of the Holy Spirit of The Living God.)

can i get a witness ??&nbsp; :clap:&nbsp; :clap:&nbsp; :clap:

[Higher Truth]

Omaha Girl,

Was this a Messianic Jewish congregation, and where was it located?

[Blindfaith]

Omaha-gal, I'm very sorry to hear what happened to you and your family at the church. :(&nbsp; But, you sound pretty positive, with the understanding of what the Jews have to go through.&nbsp;

You're a neat person, and I pray that you and your loved ones will find a good Messianic church home. :)

~Peace in Christ,

BF

[Omaha-gal]

Thank you.
we do not harbor anything against them, maybe one day the Lord will have us go back. i need much confirmation for that.
we could use another place here in the metro,
that is far more ' user friendly' ;-)
sure would like to visit Zola Levitt's one in Texas.

by the way.... has anyone here traveled to Orlando to see the Holy Land Experience theme park?

[NOTso angry-amy]

i met an amazing woman tonight at the messianic fellowship in my area. she found jesus in her 20s but only 2 years ago really found what the bible meant to her. she described it as having jesus find her 20years ago, but finding jesus only about 2 years ago.

i didnt know how i would feel about christians worshiping as jews and practicing messianic judaism..... and i am still not really sure how i feel, but i feel like god really gave me a message at the service tonight.

for so many years i have hated messianic jews, having been one for nearly 3 years caused a lot of internal hatred. this woman told me that christians dont really accept us, and i know that jews dont really accept us. i never really accepted me because i had so many preconcieved notions about what a jew is and what a christian is. i never really knew the "middle ground" that seems to be messianic judaism. i feel like god was telling me to let go of some of those preconcieved notions and that if i do i will be able to grow even more.

just wanted to share.

[vegan]

Originally posted by NOTso angry-amy
this woman told me that christians dont really accept us,

This is a geralization! :(

Plenty of Christians support Messianic organizations.&nbsp; Plenty of Christians support Jews returning to Eretz Yisrael.

&nbsp;

[NOTso angry-amy]

what i was trying to say that i was having a difficult time wording is that while christians tend to be full of prayers and praise when a jew is coming to faith in christ, jews are undereducated in the end because the christians that were talking to them about truth move on to the next hopeful convert.

i know plenty of christians who love jews, and messianic jews, but never have they understood the point of saying the blessings, or the need to keep sabbath. they think because the rest of the christian world does the sunday thing, that they are right and that is the only answer.

[figment]

Originally posted by vegan
This is a geralization! :(

Plenty of Christians support Messianic organizations.&nbsp; Plenty of Christians support Jews returning to Eretz Yisrael.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

As a Southern Baptist (Christian) and having known and worshiped with Messianic Jews, here is my understanding of them:

&nbsp;

Jews are still Gods chosen people. Messianic Jews are just as Christian as I am, and I, being adopted by God, am just as Jewish as they are.

[ATAT]

I saw this lady the other day with a star of David around her neck. I asked her if she was Jewish.

She said she was, yes.

Then she said she was adopted.

I thought, how nice.

Then she said she was actually adopted into the 'real' chosen people, the Catholics, through her 'faith in the Lord Jesus Christ'.



God told Avraham (Abraham) that the blessing would be to Abraham's 'zera' meaning literal seed.

This is in correction to Abraham's initial understanding that it would go to his 'spiritual' son, his student.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by NOTso angry-amy
what i was trying to say that i was having a difficult time wording is that while christians tend to be full of prayers and praise when a jew is coming to faith in christ, jews are undereducated in the end because the christians that were talking to them about truth move on to the next hopeful convert.

i know plenty of christians who love jews, and messianic jews, but never have they understood the point of saying the blessings, or the need to keep sabbath. they think because the rest of the christian world does the sunday thing, that they are right and that is the only answer.

We keep the sabbath and we aren't jews, I mean maybe somewhere way back in the genealogy but not for several genarations...we used to go to a messianic temple, it was ok... but then we moved a little bit south... wish there were one nearby.

The Lord dwelled on that one with me for several morths till I finally tossed the sunday habit... I would toss and turn on it then finally I got convicted,,, of course now we don't live near any sabbath keeping congregation at all, we could make the trip into town i suppose...

I need to pray for that.

I think we are entering strange times if you want my opinion.. He has been real good to us, real nearby you know? And I feel as though he's saying right now, not even to worry about church so much, we do study tapes at home, we listen on the radio, I am always studying I love the word... Gods people... but that he's pressing us away from the church ( the mainstream) for a reason, he's never really done that before... but he is definitely doing it, maybe something going on in our area I don't know... maybe I was heading the wrong way with the churches we were going to not sure, one thing for sure I have learned a lot in the past several months just studying the different denoms, listening to people, reading the word on my own without relying on someone elses interpretations or rules...

hmmm.. and He's still here... same as ever...

something going on I think.

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by figment
&nbsp;

As a Southern Baptist (Christian) and having known and worshiped with Messianic Jews, here is my understanding of them:

&nbsp;

Jews are still Gods chosen people. Messianic Jews are just as Christian as I am, and I, being adopted by God, am just as Jewish as they are.

Lots of jews were converted to christianity way way back, it's hard to say really after several hundred years or more even, if you are not in the original plan anyway, wouldn't you say?

Both jews and gentiles were converted, and they mixed at that point, its been going on for 2000 years...

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by NOTso angry-amy
i feel like god was telling me to let go of some of those preconcieved notions and that if i do i will be able to grow even more.

just wanted to share.

I had to get a really really big garbage can myself...

I don't know, some of my best friends when i was younger were Jewish... I have always loved jewish people..and I have always been a christian sort of, only really saved the past 7-8 years though... I admire the messianic jews a lot I don't know why you would feel that way... The services are the nicest I have ever sen even... bordering on outright beautiful with the dancing and stuff... in the barefeet so pretty... my daughter loved our messianic church... she was just little then but she loved that dancing... I will never forget...